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'[PIC]: DIP Prototyping - any concerns?'
2003\02\09@214348 by Des Bromilow

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Hi,

Having completed my first functioning application with a PIC (C84) - I've got a couple of questions..
Is there any tricks/issues with clockspeed of 4MHz and veroboard construction?
Any tricks I should be watching for with respect to noise etc on the veroboard?
Anything to watch on the PICs in such constrcution methods.

I've already found a couple of "gotcha" tips, but most relate to ensuring I follow my design properly (including the connection of MCLR - instead if leaving it open pending the inclusion of a POR cct that never eventuated)

Thanks,
Des

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2003\02\09@222416 by Jai Dhar

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Quoting Des Bromilow <.....Des.BromilowKILLspamspam@spam@CITEC.COM.AU>:

> Hi,
>
> Having completed my first functioning application with a PIC (C84) - I've got
> a couple of questions..
> Is there any tricks/issues with clockspeed of 4MHz and veroboard
> construction?

Regarding to your veroboard, I use them all the time - with an f84/877, and
use an external 4 mhz resonator. I haven't had any problems yet, but I haven't
tested it for 100% accuracy since I haven't needed it yet.

> Any tricks I should be watching for with respect to noise etc on the
> veroboard?
> Anything to watch on the PICs in such constrcution methods.
>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the noise would be more dependant on what's
actually in your circuit... not as much the board it's on??

> I've already found a couple of "gotcha" tips, but most relate to ensuring I
> follow my design properly (including the connection of MCLR - instead if
> leaving it open pending the inclusion of a POR cct that never eventuated)

Unless you have an application which requires absolute precision (in both
clock speed and logic levels), i think you should be fine with the good ol'
veroboard!

{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\09@225126 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Des Bromilow wrote:

> Is there any tricks/issues with clockspeed of 4MHz and veroboard construction?

Not that I have noticed in many, many prototyped circuits.

> Any tricks I should be watching for with respect to noise etc on the veroboard?

Well, don't expect the noise situation to be all that good.  Opamps
running high gain will hear the strongest local radio station, that sort
of thing.  Your ADC readings probably won't be good to the last couple of
bits.  Other than that, no big deal.

Dale
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2003\02\10@031115 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Any tricks I should be watching for with respect to noise etc
> on the veroboard?

Like on a real PCB:
- keep the wires from osc pins to the xtal short
- likewise for xtal -> caps
- likewise for caps -> PIC Gnd
- don't 'share' the caps -> PIC Gnd wire with anything else
- put the 0.1uF decoupler real close to the PIC power pins

An do include a fools diode (shorts the power when it is reversed) that
can handle the short circuit current from your PSU.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\10@031529 by Douglas Wood

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And put a nice ground plane around the whole thing...

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
@spam@dbwoodKILLspamspamkc.rr.com
ICQ#: 143841506

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC
http://epicis.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\10@042733 by Ian McLean

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How else does one prototype ?  If I had to etch a board for every prototype
I would never get a single project finished ;)

A few suggestions.

1) By default, most PIC port pins are inputs until configured otherwise.  If
you are not going to use the pins, and are not going to set them to outputs
in code, then it is best to terminate these pins to prevent stray noise
interfering with the port pins.  Obviously, this is inconvenient when
prototyping, but should be a given on any final design.
2) MCLR can be a problem because it can act like an antenna.  This usually
culminates on the ICSP socket because it puts the MCLR output close to port
pin outputs used for ICSP programming.  Keep the ICSP pins properly pulled
up or down in this scenario.
3) One suggestion I do have in mind is to keep clear of the boards with
"lines" of copper, these introduce small unwanted capacitances.  Stick with
the veroboard that just has copper donuts on the holes, and use Kynar wire
to make all interconnections.  This stuff is excellent for prototyping.  It
is silver clad and very low resistance and easy to work with (you use a
soldering iron to strip ("melt back") the insulation).

Just my own humble opinions on the issue.

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\10@045053 by Joe Farr

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I find Veroboard-ing takes to long and it's not cheap, so I use those
plug in boards (Protobloc I think their called)
I have a pile of them fixed to a piece of ply making a working area of
about 18" square and it's great for throwing ideas around on. I
regularly run CPU's and PIC's at 20MHz and don't have many problems
although sometimes you accidentally pull out a wire and it can take a
while to find. You can build a block of a circuit, get it working, then
add a new block, redesign an existing block until your done - it's
great. Not sure you could do RF on them though. But I still use Vero
when I can't be bothered to make a PCB or it's a one off for personal
use.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian McLean [KILLspamianmcleanKILLspamspamOPTUSHOME.COM.AU] Sent: 10 February 2003 09:25
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: DIP Prototyping - any concerns?

How else does one prototype ?  If I had to etch a board for every
prototype
I would never get a single project finished ;)

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2003\02\10@082634 by Olin Lathrop

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> How else does one prototype ?  If I had to etch a board for every
prototype
> I would never get a single project finished ;)

I don't know what a "Veroboard" is, but maybe that's a different trade
name for what was call "Protoboard" when I bought some.  These have strips
of sockets on .1 inch centers wired together.

Yes, I use them for quick and dirty testing.  The biggest problem is not
noise, but the limited circuit complexity that can fit without using way
too many Protoboards.  I have had PICs running with 20MHz oscillators on
these many times.  There is a template project including photograph at
http://www.embedinc.com/pic/hos.htm.

> 1) By default, most PIC port pins are inputs until configured otherwise.
If
> you are not going to use the pins, and are not going to set them to
outputs
> in code, then it is best to terminate these pins to prevent stray noise
> interfering with the port pins.  Obviously, this is inconvenient when
> prototyping, but should be a given on any final design.

I use a system where each I/O pin used by the project is explicitly
declared in the project include file.  This is done with the /INBIT and
/OUTBIT preprocessor commands, in conjunction with the standard port
initialization code in the PORT module.  The preprocessor, PORT module,
and all the related stuff is available at http://www.embedinc.com/pic for
free.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\02\10@094059 by Joe Farr

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Olin,
Veroboard (at least in the UK), is a form of fibreglass/composite
material board with parallel copper strips running down the length and
pre-drilled usually with 1mm holes, though I have seen other sizes in
the past.
Ideal for transferring your masterpiece directly from your "Protoboard"
to a more permanent home.


{Original Message removed}

2003\02\10@123628 by Philip Pemberton

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> How else does one prototype ?  If I had to etch a board for every
>> prototype I would never get a single project finished ;)
> I don't know what a "Veroboard" is, but maybe that's a different trade
> name for what was call "Protoboard" when I bought some.  These have
> strips of sockets on .1 inch centers wired together.
A Veroboard is basically a PCB with tracks running straight across the board
with holes punched at 0.1in centers. A Protoboard is also known as a
"Breadboard" or "Solderless Prototyping Board" IIRC.

> Yes, I use them for quick and dirty testing.  The biggest problem is
> not noise, but the limited circuit complexity that can fit without
> using way too many Protoboards.  I have had PICs running with 20MHz
> oscillators on these many times.  There is a template project
> including photograph at http://www.embedinc.com/pic/hos.htm.
Nice one. I've had Ubicom SXes running at 50MHz in Turbo mode on a
breadboard before. Anyone prototyped anything faster?

Later.
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2003\02\11@081855 by Alex Holden

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On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 17:36, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> A Veroboard is basically a PCB with tracks running straight across the board
> with holes punched at 0.1in centers.

I think Veroboard is the tradename for a common brand of stripboard.

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