Searching \ for '[PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devices.htm?key=pic
Search entire site for: 'Contracting job gone wrong'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong'
2002\02\04@004508 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Well, it finally happened.  What started out as a promising paying
code-for-hire job went bad, the customer has stopped responding to emails
and has apparently decided not to pay for the work done as agreed.  Since
we're several states apart and the amount isn't enough to get lawyers
involved, I guess he gets away with it for the time being.  I'm really
disappointed; it's not like my kids are going to go without shoes this
winter, but there are a few hundred hours of my time I would have spent
doing other things if I'd known I wasn't going to get paid for them.  I
even offered to be flexible on the amount if he was in financial straits,
but there has been no response to my last four or five emails since
December.

I debated for a few weeks whether or not to post this to the list.  I
don't want to be seen as using the list or my so-called position as list
admin to push a personal agenda.  Sooner or later, though, the guy is
going to need some changes or fixes made to the code, and I suspect he's
going to turn to another PICList member to do it.  I'd really like to
spare the next guy the same fate, and yes, it would irritate me to know
someone else was getting paid to do what I should have already been paid
to do.

I'm not going to name names or go too deep into details, but if you get an
email from someone looking to have some work done on some CCS C source
code (that still may or may not have my name attached), you might want to
drop me a note privately to see if it's the same guy.  IANAL, but as far
as I can tell since I didn't get paid as agreed, he's got no right to the
code.

Dale
---
Time wounds all heels.
       -- Me

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@014336 by Jesse Lackey

flavicon
face
Why are you hesitant to name names?  If he is a deadbeat, in other words a
*CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next
victim.  Few *hundred* hours?  Are you kidding me?  Send him another email
warning him that you will go public with the situation if it makes you feel
better then POST.  If you are an honest person, and it sounds like you are,
you deserve honesty from those you do business with.  If he has anything to
say then he can post too.

Frankly, I'd make a short web page about him and the situation and feed it
to google.  When he remedies the situation to your satisfaction, you can
change it or take it down.

Its not like you will be committing libel & you are doing honest freelancers
a favor.

Jesse



Dale Botkin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@020517 by Robert Rolf

picon face
And I assume that you may also have some recourse in 'small claims' court.
At the very least, file a complaint with the BBB in his area.
http://www.bbb.org/
If he ever tries to become a member, he'll have some explaining to do.

And since what you're going to post is 'the truth' you can't be liable for
libel. And DO name names since that's the only potent club you've got.

And have you tried phoning him to confirm that he really ISN'T going to
pay. Computers do go down and it can sometimes take weeks to get them
back up. Never attribute to malice that which can also come from
stupidity (or long winter vacations). You really should try to
talk to him on the phone before pulling the trigger. And he may have
gone bankrupt, in which case you'll want to file a claim with the
trustee or bankrupcy court in his locale ASAP.

Robert

Jesse Lackey wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@040314 by Peter Anderson

picon face
That's unfortunate.

I don't like conflict, but in this situation, I would
be inclined to post a "beware", both here and on the
CCS board.

I am not a professional contractor, but the work I
have done has often been frustrating.  In virtually
every job, the requirements seem to keep growing, and
I then have to toughen up and request additional
payment prior to providing additional code.
Although, the welfare of my students may not depend on
payment, I get myself into a mindset that it does.
Toughens me up.

But, don't let it eat you up.  Take some stock in
knowing you would never stoop so low.  In the future,
stage the work and resolve to insist on partial prior
payment as the software is delivered.

Peter H Anderson, http://www.phanderson.com
(Not affiliated with Arthur Andersen)

--- Dale Botkin <@spam@daleKILLspamspamBOTKIN.ORG> wrote:
> Well, it finally happened.  What started out as a
> promising paying


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email KILLspamlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@094512 by Karl Seibert

flavicon
face
Dale,

I've seen some other responses and I would like to add something
that the company I work for has to do occasionally: bring in
a collection agency.  You will have to turn over a large part
of the money they shake loose from the deadbeats (50% is the
amount I hear tossed around when the money types are talking),
but it might be worth the try if you are just about to give up
on getting anything.  Collections people are paid to be persistant
and they know how to go after credit ratings.  The company that
didn't pay you might change their minds after a big black mark
shows up on the credit report and suppliers start insisting on
payment up front instead of giving 30 days to pay.

Karl

Quoting Dale Botkin <RemoveMEdaleTakeThisOuTspamBOTKIN.ORG>:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@105955 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Tough Blow, Dale.  I ate a $2000 moonlight  job a coupla years ago, and
decided not to sue.  The blighters have the gall to come back around to my
daylight employer looking for work in their "newly formed" company
consisting of all the same guys just a few months later.  Sheesh.

Since then I have demanded retainers, and I have a clause in my contract (I
now HAVE a contract) that says that I am working on time and materials basis
and any change in scope means a change in fees.  Low and behold, nobody has
squawked about it.  I figure this is how my lawyer works, so can I.

I would NOT try to solve this problem via email.  Call them, write letters,
and have a lawyer wirte a letter.  A $100 letter from my lawyer has scared
the pants off several BIG companies that were about to roll over me with
thier corporate steamrollers, after months of no response I got very
apologetic calls from the boss saying we could easily work something out
etc. etc.  Lawyers don't have to sue to get results, and in fact you are
always bettter off if they don't.

--Lawrence






{Original Message removed}

2002\02\04@114445 by Chris Eddy

flavicon
face
Lawrence has some great points, and I found a middle ground as well. You
can go to the local magistrate (two states away) and file a small claim.
They will be served with notice of a hearing. You do not have to involve
an attorney at all. When they see that they are about to spend money to
defend, or at least to show up, they get very agreeable. I got a call
right away from their CFO. We came to a compromise, and he said I could
drop by and pickup a check. I went dressed as a slob. You could see his
distaste in handing over my check. It was fun.

Chris~

Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> I would NOT try to solve this problem via email.  Call them, write letters,
> and have a lawyer wirte a letter.  A $100 letter from my lawyer has scared
> the pants off several BIG companies that were about to roll over me with
> thier corporate steamrollers, after months of no response I got very
> apologetic calls from the boss saying we could easily work something out
> etc. etc.  Lawyers don't have to sue to get results, and in fact you are
> always bettter off if they don't.

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@115527 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>We came to a compromise, and he said I could drop by
>and pickup a check. I went dressed as a slob. You could
>see his distaste in handing over my check. It was fun.

I guess this is what is known as a "double whammy". He certainly will not be
sending a job from his plush office to a slob like that again :)

Nice way to stop repeat jobs you don't want ;)

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@173231 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Jesse Lackey wrote:

> Why are you hesitant to name names?  If he is a deadbeat, in other words a
> *CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next
> victim.

I have decided to make a couple more attempts to collect before going that
far.  I'll call and snailmail the guy to see if there may be some reason
he's not responding.  I'd really, really hate to harm someone's reputation
if I was wrong.  He could be hospitalized, moving, God only knows what.
All I know for sure is that I get no email bounce messages and no
response, but that could be caused by any number of things.  I dealt with
him for over a year with no problems, so it's hard for me to accept that
he would just all of a sudden decide to break our agreement without
explanation.  On the other hand, we had discussed the amount and timing of
the payment that was due, so it's not like the guy is unaware of the
situation -- and he's got my address and phone number.

As for future jobs, I do plan to make some changes to how I negotiate the
job up front, as well as how scope & feature creep are handled.  In this
case I do have a string of emails documenting the agreements we have, but
I am really not willing to go through the expense and hassle of suing,
especially across state lines.  Since I'm out the labor but not any cash
or materials, I'll chalk it up as a tuition payment to Hard Knocks U. if I
never get paid.  Just to clarify, I *did* get some retainer up front, so
it's not like I got totally shafted, it's just the payment that was
promised on completion that never materialized.  I'll get by.  And sooner
or later, like I said, something's going to need tweaking, and there is a
pretty small pool of available tweakers for this kind of thing!

I think in the future I'll start with a written agreement of the project
scope and specifications, a retainer payment, and agreed terms of what
happens when scope or features change, when payment is needed, progress
reports, the works.  It will be a pain in the rear, but so is working a
few weeks on a project you're not going to get paid for.

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservEraseMEspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@175609 by Dal Wheeler

flavicon
face
Are you certain they're still in business?  It's not a certain thing these
days...
----- Original Message -----
From: Dale Botkin <EraseMEdalespamBOTKIN.ORG>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong


> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Jesse Lackey wrote:
>
> > Why are you hesitant to name names?  If he is a deadbeat, in other words
a
> > *CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next
> > victim.

What state do they operate out of?  Maybe this is enough info to just "be
aware".

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\04@183239 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Dale,

I would expect that a "few hundred hours" of your time would be sufficient
to get lawyers involved, at least at the initial stage of having them send a
scare letter.

I wish you the best of luck in getting your $$$.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2002\02\08@183832 by Brian Kraut

picon face
Be sure to send a certified letter.  It only costs a few bucks and lets
him know that you are serious.

Dale Botkin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\02\09@062616 by Andrzej Baranski

flavicon
face
But he might refuse to accept a registered letter.
There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all
Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence :
" This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one "

Brian Kraut wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\09@111744 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Brian Kraut wrote:

> Be sure to send a certified letter.  It only costs a few bucks and lets
> him know that you are serious.

Did that.  We'll see if that gets things moving.

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\09@112615 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Andrzej Baranski wrote:

> But he might refuse to accept a registered letter.
> There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all
> Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence :
> " This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one "

I'll have to cross that bridge if/when I come to it.  I have to believe,
until proven otherwise, that it's all just a misunderstanding or
oversight... no matter how difficult that is becoming.

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spamBeGonelistservSTOPspamspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\10@150654 by Mark Newland

flavicon
face
Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not own
the rights to that code or any other work that you have done.  This would
probally mean that you still own the rights to it.  What would prevent you
from marketing the product yourself?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2002\02\11@055757 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> But he might refuse to accept a registered letter.
> There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all
> Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence :
> " This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one "

Do you mean that with this annotation on the end of the letter, you send two
copies, one of which is by registered post?

What is the legal advantage of doing this, or of the annotation?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\02\11@141756 by Andrzej Baranski

flavicon
face
"Alan B. Pearce" wrote:
>
> > But he might refuse to accept a registered letter.
> > There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all
> > Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence :
> > " This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one "
>
> Do you mean that with this annotation on the end of the letter, you send two
> copies, one of which is by registered post?
>
Its better to send both.

> What is the legal advantage of doing this, or of the annotation?

I'm not a lawyer, a long time ago I was advised to use it , and it
did work.
As far as I recall the legal advantage is in fact that, refusing to
accept a registered letter he has to prove, in court case, that he
hasn't received the other one. Which is extremely difficult if not
impossible,
and means that he was aware of your demands.

Andy

>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
> [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\02\11@154427 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Nothing...  already thought of that, in fact.  We'll see how the efforts
to get a response go.  I don't prticularly want to be a manufacturer, but
it's not like it wld be the first time.  I can do it.

Dale
--
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Newland wrote:

> Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not own
> the rights to that code or any other work that you have done.  This would
> probally mean that you still own the rights to it.  What would prevent you
> from marketing the product yourself?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\02\12@030528 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
Dale, I have readed this topic with interes, maybe because thats is
what I hapened every monts. So I understood your pain after 100 hours or
more spend to solve a problem for an undecided customer. The only advice i
can gave you is to remember that everything you are doing in this life is
just for yourself ( and not for money or a better life or something like
that, bulshits that your [and mine] capitalist society are learning you
from your born day ). With other words, do not count what you left in your
back ( a multibilionaire Microsoft company, or nothing ) but the way in\
which you spend your life. If you were happy when your pic project was
running is the best payment. Is difficult to understood what I have
written here if you are under 40 years old. But probably you'll remember
at 60.

Best regards, Vasile


On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Dale Botkin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\02\12@090731 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
Vasile: Well said!

CL

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Vasile Surducan
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:05 AM
To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong


Dale, I have readed this topic with interes, maybe because thats is
what I hapened every monts. So I understood your pain after 100 hours or
more spend to solve a problem for an undecided customer. The only advice i
can gave you is to remember that everything you are doing in this life is
just for yourself ( and not for money or a better life or something like
that, bulshits that your [and mine] capitalist society are learning you
from your born day ). With other words, do not count what you left in your
back ( a multibilionaire Microsoft company, or nothing ) but the way in\
which you spend your life. If you were happy when your pic project was
running is the best payment. Is difficult to understood what I have
written here if you are under 40 years old. But probably you'll remember
at 60.

Best regards, Vasile

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\02\12@203109 by Brian Kraut

picon face
Sounds like a great clause to put into any future development contract.

Mark Newland wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\02\12@212435 by Jinx

face picon face
> >Since he has not paid for the services that you provided,
> >he should not own the rights to that code or any other work
> >that you have done.  This would probally mean that you still
> >own the rights to it

As I understand it, unless you sign over copyright to s/w and/or
h/w it remains yours. You could make your own product if

- there was no agreement that he had exclusive usage

- you had not signed a confidentiality agreement

I had a similar situation a few years ago. Put in hundreds of
hours work on a product, receiving a token payment on the
understanding that when the project was complete I would
receive my riches from sales. Of course, it never happened,
despite my best efforts to gee up the process. Others also
got hurt, including the guy who made up 10 SMT boards. As
far as I know, the inventor of the product is dead (he looked
at least 500 years old when we started), although I haven't
bothered to get in touch so as not to get all frustrated again

I have all original material and what I think is the cheapest
and most efficient way to do it. I could sue his ass (if he's
not metabolically challenged that is), but that would mean
so much work and raking up it hardly seems worth it. As
Vasile said, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it
and value the learning experience. Be nice to get paid for
it too of course

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\02\14@105318 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>Sounds like a great clause to put into any future development contract.
>
>Mark Newland wrote:
>
>>Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not
>>own >>the rights to that code or any other work that you have done.
>This >would >>probally mean that you still own the rights to it.  What
>would prevent >you from marketing the product yourself?

Actually I heard that a small number of open source designs started out as
designs that werenot paid for promptly ...

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email .....listservspam_OUTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\02\14@115247 by thaddeus thomas

flavicon
face
This is EXACTLY what's happening with me.  I wrote an image (object)
extraction system.  The clients management is in an arguement and neither
wants to pay, both are playing me (the contractor) as the pawn.  So, now I
have an system.   So, I'm going to go into selling it for myself.  There was
no clause in the contract against seeking to sell to others, besides they
never honored the contract anyway.   Also the code I delivered earlier (and
was paid) was not within a contract and in that condition, the code is owned
by the person who wrote it.

Damn greedy companies anyway.  they make alot off of our brows and pay us
nothing for it, yet they turn around and sell it for way too much.  Open
Source is Civilized!

Thaddeus

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2002 , 2003 only
- Today
- New search...