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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: 18F choices'
2005\04\12@090233 by alan smith

picon face
Life was easier 15+ years ago when you had only a few
choices....

What's the best choice for an 18F family part, not
alot of memory required, do need a UART and 8 bits of
I/O. Low power requirements. Essentially it will wake
up, grab some data or squirt out some data thru the
UART.

Thinking the 18F1220.  Comments?


               
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2005\04\12@095852 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> What's the best choice for an 18F family part, not
> alot of memory required, do need a UART and 8 bits of
> I/O. Low power requirements. Essentially it will wake
> up, grab some data or squirt out some data thru the
> UART.
>
> Thinking the 18F1220.  Comments?

ATmega48 (or its smaller siblings) is very nice and seems to avoid
many of the problems in the rest of the 18F series :-)



       RM

2005\04\12@101632 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face

>
> ATmega48 (or its smaller siblings) is very nice and seems to
> avoid many of the problems in the rest of the 18F series :-)
>
>
>
>         RM
>

Heretic

:o

2005\04\12@164104 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
alan smith wrote :

> Life was easier 15+ years ago when you had only a few
> choices...

Since I got married I only have *one*...

> What's the best choice for an 18F family part, not
> alot of memory required,...

And how on earth are we going to know *how* much
"not a lot" is ?

> ...do need a UART and 8 bits of
> I/O. Low power requirements. Essentially it will wake
> up, grab some data or squirt out some data thru the
> UART.
>
> Thinking the 18F1220.  Comments?

16F628 / 16F648 / 16F88 ?

There must be some facts missing since it don't look
as if you need a 18F at all. Or did you specify the 18F1220
becuse it matches your "not a lot memory" requirement ?

Jan-Erik



2005\04\12@192646 by Jinx
face picon face
> 16F628 / 16F648 / 16F88 ?
>
> There must be some facts missing since it don't look
> as if you need a 18F at all. Or did you specify the 18F1220
> becuse it matches your "not a lot memory" requirement ?

There's speed as well - 18F 40MHz vs 16F 20MHz. If power
consumption is far more important than speed, then a 12F and
external buss register (latch / parallel-serial convertor) could be
used. Even a 10F maybe

2005\04\12@204554 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Apr 12, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> There must be some facts missing since it don't look
> as if you need a 18F at all.

About half the people on the list have been advocating that beginners
go straight to 18F part regardless of "need", haven't they?  Although
there doesn't seem to have been a lot of progress toward selecting
"standard" 18F chips for such purposes, beyond the 40pin 18F452.)

It doesn't look like there are many choices in the 18pin package, if
that was a desire.  18f1220 or 18f1320 (and they appear to be the same
except for amount of program memory.)

BillW

2005\04\12@205827 by Jinx

face picon face
> It doesn't look like there are many choices in the 18pin package
> if that was a desire.  18f1220 or 18f1320 (and they appear to be
> the same except for amount of program memory.)

The 18F1x20 doesn't seem to have caught on in NZ. I check now
and then with local suppliers and they aren't ever OTS, even by the
tube. You need to indent an MOQ. So I've bought and used all (10F,
12F, 16F, 18F452) bar the 18F1x20. Never seem to have had a
need for the 18F1x20 specifically that couldn't be covered by a 16F

2005\04\13@041441 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It doesn't look like there are many choices in the 18pin package,
>if that was a desire.  18f1220 or 18f1320 (and they appear to be
>the same except for amount of program memory.)

Someone (I think it was Olin) recommended the 18F1320 as a beginners chip
IIRC, when a beginner asked a well worded question some time back. I keep on
thinking I must get some samples to try out the 18F, but the gripes over
errata the last couple of days has made me wonder how long I should put it
off ...

2005\04\13@085442 by alan smith

picon face

OK...using an 18F part allows me to use the same code
blocks that I have already built for the other half
the project.  I do need a uart, thats given.  I do
need low  power.  I do need a small package.  I do
need flash for ISP.

So that leaves out the 10F and 12F series (no uarts)

16F88 is a good choice, but that means redoing a bunch
of code.

Price is a consideration, so waiting on quotes now for
the F88 and F1220

I also just wish they would make a dual uart part in a
28 pin package.

--- Jinx <spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\04\13@091422 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> Someone (I think it was Olin) recommended the 18F1320 as a beginners
> chip IIRC, when a beginner asked a well worded question some time back.
> I keep on thinking I must get some samples to try out the 18F, but the
> gripes over errata the last couple of days has made me wonder how long
> I should put it off ...

It was my understanding that the problems with the 18F1320 were fixed a long
time ago.  I think I got the first fixed samples about 1 1/2 years ago.  If
this is true, then the 18F1320 is a reasonable beginner choice for the 18
pin package.  Other "generic" 18F PICs would be the 18F252 for 28 pin
package, and 18F452 for 40 pins.  Anyone new to PICs and not doing a high
volume design should consider the 10, 12, and 16 PICs as specialty parts to
be used only when the specific circumstances dictate.

Now that the PIC 30F are real and readily available, maybe newbies should
start with them.  I particularly like the 30F3013 for that role.  It is
available in a 28 pin DIP package, has two UARTS, two PWM outputs, lots of
12 bit A/D inputs, and various other goodies.  With 8K instruction words and
2K RAM bytes, it can do more than the old standby 16F876 all around.  It's
only drawback compared to the 18F252 is that it uses up a few more pins for
power and ground, and has half the instruction words although these are 24
bits wide compared to 16 and each instruction can operate on 16 bit instead
of 8 bit data at a time.  All in all this is a very capable chip with
generous RAM and decent code space.  Although the instruction set takes a
little more to learn initially, it's easier to write code for once you get
going.  Paging and banking are gone, and so is the gymnastics of routing
everything thru the single W register.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\13@092841 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
alan smith wrote :

> OK...using an 18F part allows me to use the same code
> blocks that I have already built for the other half
> the project.  I do need a uart, thats given.  I do
> need low  power.  I do need a small package.  I do
> need flash for ISP.

Hi.
Well, with *that* given, the choices aren't that many, are they ?
For a 18-pin package, there are only two (1220 and 1320)
For 28-pin packages there are more but many of them are
"special" like USB, CAN or motor controll, so in reality there
aren't that many "standard" 28-pin 18F's either...

I've used 1220/1320 in a project (that never "made it"), and
everything worked just fine. Just a minor issue with Wisp628
that forced me to power cycle the PIC between each
programming run.

I'd also put a lot of priority on reuse of the existing PIC18
code that you have, if it isn't a large volume project...

Jan-Erik.





2005\04\13@094004 by olin_piclist

face picon face
alan smith wrote:
> I also just wish they would make a dual uart part in a
> 28 pin package.

They have.  It's called the 30F3013.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\13@094528 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> For 28-pin packages there are more but many of them are
> "special" like USB, CAN or motor controll, so in reality there
> aren't that many "standard" 28-pin 18F's either...

You only need one.  The 18F252 would certainly fit this description.  It has
now been superceded by the 18F2520, which looks good on paper but I don't
have any experience with it yet.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\13@103535 by alan smith

picon face
OK..not to sound too dumb...but...

This is a dsPIC, so I didn't even bother looking at
those.  Can you put them into a configuration of being
just a micro and code them as such?  I know many of
the 18F series you can configure as microcontroller or
microprocessor.
--- Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:
> alan smith wrote:
> > I also just wish they would make a dual uart part
> in a
> > 28 pin package.
>
> They have.  It's called the 30F3013.
>
>
*****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton
> Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
> --

2005\04\13@112418 by olin_piclist

face picon face
alan smith wrote:
> This is a dsPIC, so I didn't even bother looking at
> those.  Can you put them into a configuration of being
> just a micro and code them as such?

No.  They have special hardware that detects properly implemented signal
processing algorithms.  If the sum of this DSP rating and the similar
"coolness" rating don't reach the minimum threshold within 75mS of startup,
the chip automatically voids its warranty and deliberately enters SCR
latchup mode.  This blows fusible links on all power and ground pins
permanently disabling the device.  Microchip has decided that running just
ordinary applications on such advanced chips would hurt the dsPIC's image.
The extra DSP and patented coolness detector was deemed worth it to
perpetuate the awe for these chips, even if 30% of the die is required to
implement them.

In the end we all benefit by knowing that any application running on a dsPIC
is guaranteed to be advanced or "cool".  Think about it.  Do you really want
an invasion of unwashed newbies asking questions about how to blink an LED
on a dsPIC?  Geesh, talk about pearls before swine!


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\13@134556 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I think the OP was under the impression that the dsPIC was more of a
microprocessor than a microcontroller (ie: that it required external
memory).

This is _not_ the case.

The dsPIC makes a fine 16 bit microcontroller.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2005\04\13@140828 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I saved this one Olin. Its a keeper. <G>

--Bob

Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2005\04\13@144059 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

flavicon
face
> In the end we all benefit by knowing that any application running on a
> dsPIC is guaranteed to be advanced or "cool".  Think about it.  Do you
> really want an invasion of unwashed newbies asking questions about how to
> blink an LED on a dsPIC?  Geesh, talk about pearls before swine!

I laughed so hard on this one.... i never laughed this hard for any other
piclist post before!!!

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\04\13@151357 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 07:35 -0700, alan smith wrote:
> OK..not to sound too dumb...but...
>
> This is a dsPIC, so I didn't even bother looking at
> those.  Can you put them into a configuration of being
> just a micro and code them as such?  I know many of
> the 18F series you can configure as microcontroller or
> microprocessor.

Think of the dsPIC as a microcontroller first, and a DSP thingy second.
I've done a few projects with the dsPIC now and didn't use a bit of
"DSP" at all.

Because of it's larger RAM amounts, generous code space and quite a
useful instruction set, and lack of banking and other 16F/18F nasties it
really is a breath of fresh air! :) TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\04\13@151538 by Hopkins

flavicon
face
Hi Oiln

I tried to find the data sheet(s) for the PIC30 family but could not
find them on the Microchip web site.

Can you provide the URL for the data sheet?

_______________________________________
Roy
Tauranga
New Zealand
_______________________________________

{Original Message removed}

2005\04\13@154604 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

flavicon
face
> I tried to find the data sheet(s) for the PIC30 family but could not
> find them on the Microchip web site.

It's not called the PIC30.. but the dsPIC.. look under there..

cheers...

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\04\13@155211 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

flavicon
face
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 08:14 pm, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 07:35 -0700, alan smith wrote:
> > OK..not to sound too dumb...but...
> >
> > This is a dsPIC, so I didn't even bother looking at
> > those.  Can you put them into a configuration of being
> > just a micro and code them as such?  I know many of
> > the 18F series you can configure as microcontroller or
> > microprocessor.
>
> Think of the dsPIC as a microcontroller first, and a DSP thingy second.
> I've done a few projects with the dsPIC now and didn't use a bit of
> "DSP" at all.

Also, I think that with the kind of speed that it runs at, it may have some
trouble doing some "DSP-ish" things... like decoding MP3s... It would be nice
if it was possible though... then with all the available I/O, it could be a
single chip MP3 player solution with storage implementation (SPI) and audio
output (PWM) and lots of buttons and small graphical LCD control (SPI) with
PC connectivity (RS232 to USB maybe)... It'll be so cool...

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\04\13@155954 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 20:46 +0100, Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap wrote:
> > I tried to find the data sheet(s) for the PIC30 family but could not
> > find them on the Microchip web site.
>
> It's not called the PIC30.. but the dsPIC.. look under there..

Also, to add to that, it's not in the "PIC Microcontroller" section, but
in it's own section (dsPIC Digital Signal Controllers).

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\04\13@162851 by alan smith

picon face
OK! I suppose I deserved this.  I know Olin's posts
well enough that I did laugh at it...

I so needed humor today as well.

But...this operation sounds like the way my Xilinx
part went today....blew up...

--- Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

*****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton
> Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
> --

2005\04\13@180859 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> Think of the dsPIC as a microcontroller first, and a DSP thingy
> second. I've done a few projects with the dsPIC now and didn't use a
> bit of "DSP" at all.

Me neither.  I've done around 5 dsPIC projects so far and haven't used the
DSP engine at all yet.  I'd like to do a real signal processing application,
but so far one hasn't come up.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\13@212816 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>> Think of the dsPIC as a microcontroller first, and a DSP thingy
>> second. I've done a few projects with the dsPIC now and didn't use a
>> bit of "DSP" at all.
>
> Me neither.  I've done around 5 dsPIC projects so far and haven't used the
> DSP engine at all yet.  I'd like to do a real signal processing
> application,
> but so far one hasn't come up.

I have a current application that will involve quite a bit of signal
processing. It will use the free low-bit-rate modem library, DTMF encode and
decode, and simple speech compression and decompression. If we can manage it
we may even do a bit of voice recognition.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems



2005\04\13@222924 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 21:27 -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I have a current application that will involve quite a bit of signal
> processing. It will use the free low-bit-rate modem library, DTMF encode and
> decode, and simple speech compression and decompression. If we can manage it
> we may even do a bit of voice recognition.

While the dsPIC can surely be used for "DSPish" stuff, I think the point
Olin and I were trying to make is that you don't to treat it as a DSP
thingy. The dsPIC is a very nice to use 16bit microcontroller, and if
you don't need any of the DSP stuff there's nothing to make you even
consider it's there.

BTW, any chance that project will be public domain? Sounds very cool! :)
TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\04\14@024611 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face
At 19.41 2005.04.13 +0100, you wrote:
>> In the end we all benefit by knowing that any application running on a
>> dsPIC is guaranteed to be advanced or "cool".  Think about it.  Do you
>> really want an invasion of unwashed newbies asking questions about how to
>> blink an LED on a dsPIC?  Geesh, talk about pearls before swine!
>
>I laughed so hard on this one.... i never laughed this hard for any other
>piclist post before!!!

Sure, although the OP must have felt very insulted by Olin's sarchastic reply
when it is Olin that failed to understand what the OP meant.

At least I know I'm not alone in my interpretation that the OP meant that
the dsPIC perhaps needed extra parts (RAM, ROM, etc..), as most++ other DSP's.

I wouldn't be surprised if he now thinks that the PICLIST is a place full of
unfriendly presumptuos people.. and leaves. One more on Olin's (long) record.

Do you still laugh out loud?

2005\04\14@034858 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Do you still laugh out loud?

I did after reading Olins posting (Olin probably ranks high on the most
insulting postings, but he is also very high on the ranking of most
amusing postings, right along with James).

Now I am just very very sad that
- some persons in this world (at the very least you) clearly lack the
most basic irony-detection capabilities
- you seem to like attacking Olin at theb first chance offered, which is
IMHO a disservice to the PIClist

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\04\14@035008 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

flavicon
face
> >I laughed so hard on this one.... i never laughed this hard for any other
> >piclist post before!!!
>
> Do you still laugh out loud?

He (OP) laughed at it as well... So, i guess many people found it funny... d:

On Wednesday 13 April 2005 09:28 pm, alan smith wrote:
> OK! I suppose I deserved this.  I know Olin's posts
> well enough that I did laugh at it...
>
> I so needed humor today as well.

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\04\14@041055 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

You are being presumptious and apparently naive.  I showed Olins post to
my wife. She laughed and she has never programmed a micro in her life,
and has never heard of a dsPIC.  If the humourous tone of Olins message
was clear to such an "outsider", it's pretty sad that a piclist member
instantly jumps to the wrong conclusions.

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\14@042726 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face
At 08.50 2005.04.14 +0100, you wrote:
>> >I laughed so hard on this one.... i never laughed this hard for any other
>> >piclist post before!!!
>>
>> Do you still laugh out loud?
>
>He (OP) laughed at it as well...

I think this is irrelevant: another person may have get seriously
offended instead by so much Olin sarchasm, expecially after the OP
politely stated just before the incriminated phrase:

"OK..not to sound too dumb...but...".


>So, i guess many people found it funny... d:

Even less relevant: another poster may get offended even more if
you all laugh in circle around him.

Are we here to help beginners/whoever, or for what?

2005\04\14@044238 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face
At 09.10 2005.04.14 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

We should standardize your wife then.


{Quote hidden}

>-

2005\04\14@050332 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>> >I laughed so hard on this one.... i never laughed this hard for any
other
>>> >piclist post before!!!
>>>
>>> Do you still laugh out loud?
>>
>>He (OP) laughed at it as well...
>
>I think this is irrelevant: another person may have get seriously
>offended instead by so much Olin sarchasm, expecially after the OP
>politely stated just before the incriminated phrase:
>
>"OK..not to sound too dumb...but...".

I do tend to agree. While I had a laugh to myself at Olins posting, I did
also grimace at the prospect of yet another round of recriminations.
Thankfully this time the OP took it all in good heart, but it could easily
have been taken differently.

To me the point that should have been made is that the dsPic is much more
general purpose than being "just" a DSP, and that point could have been made
in a less potentially derogatory manner - I use the term derogatory
advisedly, as I cannot, off hand, come up with a better one.

2005\04\14@083030 by alan smith

picon face
I am the OP...and I laughed...totally laughed...at
this one.  I prefaced by saying....I don't want to
sound like an idiot, but its good to be one now and
then.  Every villiage needs an idiot...it was my turn
to be one.


--- ThePicMan <RemoveMEthepicmanTakeThisOuTspaminfinito.it> wrote:
> At 09.10 2005.04.14 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>{Original Message removed}

2005\04\14@084655 by alan smith

picon face

The real reason for asking is these seem to be the
only parts that have dual UART's in them.  I could go
and use an FPGA and put a couple of cores in them (but
found out on another project they really don't emulate
a standard UART).  

The basic question...two UARTS....can they be
connected, via setting bits, so they act like a
bridge. I will need to do much more than just
this...its just one of the pieces.


> Me neither.  I've done around 5 dsPIC projects so
> far and haven't used the
> DSP engine at all yet.  I'd like to do a real signal
> processing application,
> but so far one hasn't come up.



               
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2005\04\14@102654 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face
At 05.30 2005.04.14 -0700, you wrote:
>I am the OP...and I laughed...totally laughed...at
>this one.  I prefaced by saying....I don't want to
>sound like an idiot, but its good to be one now and
>then.  Every villiage needs an idiot...it was my turn
>to be one.

You do really seem one, but I fail to see it in your
original post, where you simply implied that the dsPIC
may need all the external components usually required
for a DSP.

So we basically agree that you're the village idiot,
we disagree about where you actually were. I think
you are now, and you weren't in your original post.

I hope that satisfies you enough.



2005\04\14@111553 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The real reason for asking is these seem to be the
>only parts that have dual UART's in them.  I could go
>and use an FPGA and put a couple of cores in them (but
>found out on another project they really don't emulate
>a standard UART).

The 30F pics are the smallest with dual uarts. There are a couple of top end
18F ones with dual uarts, but they come in 64 or 80 QFP packages IIRC, which
may make the 30F ones more desirable from the development point of view if
it is a hobby project.

2005\04\14@121838 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 21:27 -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote:

>> I have a current application that will involve quite a bit of signal
>> processing. It will use the free low-bit-rate modem library, DTMF encode
>> and
>> decode, and simple speech compression and decompression. If we can manage
>> it
>> we may even do a bit of voice recognition.
>
> While the dsPIC can surely be used for "DSPish" stuff, I think the point
> Olin and I were trying to make is that you don't to treat it as a DSP
> thingy. The dsPIC is a very nice to use 16bit microcontroller, and if
> you don't need any of the DSP stuff there's nothing to make you even
> consider it's there.

Yep. But it _can_ be used as a pretty good low-end DSP, too. Really nice to
just be able to do everything on the one chip.

> BTW, any chance that project will be public domain? Sounds very cool! :)
> TTYL

Sorry, no.

Bob Ammerman


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