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'[PIC]: 16F84A on the NOPPP?'
2001\09\07@085206 by James Padfield

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Can I program a PIC16F84A on the No-Parts Pic Programmer? The docs don't say
so, and the software doesn't list the F84A on the options menu.
Sorry for the stupid question, I'm new to PICs having just moved from the
Basic Stamp.
Thanks, James.


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2001\09\07@105127 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 12:39:54PM +0000, James Padfield wrote:
> Can I program a PIC16F84A on the No-Parts Pic Programmer? The docs don't say
> so, and the software doesn't list the F84A on the options menu.
> Sorry for the stupid question, I'm new to PICs having just moved from the
> Basic Stamp.

Anything that programs the 16F84 will work on the 84A. So while I haven't
personally testing NoPPP, I'm pretty sure it will work except for the caveat
I describe below.

But since you're just getting started I'd like to proffer a couple of
alternatives that can be real helpful in your transistion. Microchip is
offering a couple of lines that are superior to the 16F84A in every respect.
Specifically the 16F628 and the 16F87X family. Let me pull a quote from the
last post I made on the subject.

----------------- Quote ------------------------------
Just a friendly piece of advise on the subject. Don't use the 16F84a parts.
Microchip is clearly trying to put them into an end of life state.

The alternative is the 16F628. Readily available at Digikey. Here's the scoop.

- Twice the program memory
- Three times the data memory
- three timers vs. 1 for the 16F84a
- two comparators vs. 0 for the 16F84a
- twice the data eeprom memory
- hardware USART
- up to 3 extra I/O pins.
- 4 Mhz internal osciallator.
- Runs up to 20 Mhz.
- Can be low voltage programmed.

And you get this all at 2/3 the price of a 16f84a. That's right. The part
costs a lot less. At digikey the 16f84a is $6.00. The 16F628 is $3.88 in the
20 Mhz version.

The parts are both pin and programming compatible. Be sure to check for any
differences in the config word though.

Considering that you get a whole bunch more for a whole lot less, I can't see
any reason to purchase 16F84a parts anymore. And considering the pricing, I'm
pretty sure that's what Microchip expects.
-------------------- End Quote ------------------------------

In addition the 16F872 has similar features to the 16F628, has true A/D and
not just comparators, comes in a 28 pin configuration, and can be configured
with a bootloader such a Rick Farmer's PICLoader, or Wouter van Ooijen's
Wloader. A bit more pricey than the 16F628 ($4.63 in singles from Digikey)
but costs less than the 16F84A's and has superb value.

Lastly since both are low voltage programmable, you can use trivial hardware
to program them. NoPPP isn't too bad except it requires the high voltage
input. With low voltage programming on the 16F628, you could transfer the
MCLR circuit listed to RB4 (LVP), pull MCLR up with a pullup resistor (2.2K
should be fine), and lose the 12-14V supply, tying everything to 5V.

Another option is to use my Trivial LVP programmer:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys

It takes care of a problem that Michael doesn't completely address. Modern PC
parallel ports will often output 3.3V for a high signal. Sufficient for TTL
printers, chokes on CMOS PIC parts driven at 5V (which is required for
programming the flash onboard). You'll get flaky non-operation on such ports.
The Trivial LVP programmer uses an HCT part to convert the 3.3V output to 5V
for the PIC.

One quick note on the Trivial LVP programmer. The unused inputs of the 74HCT573
should be grounded. Just to be sure.

Hope this gives you some ideas. But I consider 16F84A's at end of life. In
fact I have a couple or three that I'd be willing to let go at $4.50 each
+ shipping.

BAJ

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2001\09\07@110550 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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> But since you're just getting started I'd like to proffer a couple of
> alternatives that can be real helpful in your transistion. Microchip is
> offering a couple of lines that are superior to the 16F84A in every
respect.
> Specifically the 16F628 and the 16F87X family. Let me pull a quote from
the
> last post I made on the subject.

I agree with BAJ's advice. The only reasons to use a 16F84A is that you can
not get hold of the alternatives, or that you want to use an existing 16F84
or 16C84 design. To start experimenting with PICs take a 16F877.

My PIC page starts with a table that compares those chips (and a few) more.
( http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/index.html )

And check http://www.phanserson.com for good prices!

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/jal

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2001\09\07@115629 by James Padfield

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>I agree with BAJ's advice. The only reasons to use a 16F84A is that you can
>not get hold of the alternatives, or that you want to use an existing 16F84
>or 16C84 design. To start experimenting with PICs take a 16F877.
>
>My PIC page starts with a table that compares those chips (and a few) more.
>( http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/index.html )

Thanks for the advice. I considered the 16F876 and 16F877, but went with the
16F84A.

>And check http://www.phanderson.com for good prices!

I bought my 16F84A from Peter Anderson. It was cheaper than the 16F876 and
16F877, which is why I got it. I build altimeters for rockets, and
(sometimes) they get lost, so price is a big factor. The last altimeter I
lost contained a Basic Stamp 2 - very expensive to lose.

Cheers, James.


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2001\09\07@123059 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 03:54:23PM +0000, James Padfield wrote:
> >I agree with BAJ's advice. The only reasons to use a 16F84A is that you can
> >not get hold of the alternatives, or that you want to use an existing 16F84
> >or 16C84 design. To start experimenting with PICs take a 16F877.
> >
> >My PIC page starts with a table that compares those chips (and a few) more.
> >( http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/index.html )
>
> Thanks for the advice. I considered the 16F876 and 16F877, but went with the
> 16F84A.

I see where you did your comparing...

>
> >And check http://www.phanderson.com for good prices!
>
> I bought my 16F84A from Peter Anderson. It was cheaper than the 16F876 and
> 16F877, which is why I got it. I build altimeters for rockets, and
> (sometimes) they get lost, so price is a big factor. The last altimeter I
> lost contained a Basic Stamp 2 - very expensive to lose.

Agreed. Then you will definitely want to switch to 16F628. At 25 parts on
digikey the price drops to $2.21 each. You can buy 25 of them for the price
of Stamp Starter Kit.

The F876 and F877 are the top end of the family. The lower end of the family
(870,871,872) definitly come in lower in price than the 16F84A.

And the programmer is simpler....

BAJ

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2001\09\07@150233 by John Ferrell

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face
Based on that advice I ordered (25) 16F628-20 chips on Monday for 2.21 each
plus 5.25 shipping (DigiKey).  That is $2.42 each, delivered.  They came to
the door just now.

Probably more chips than I need but at that price I will find uses!

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\10@064210 by James Padfield

picon face
>Agreed. Then you will definitely want to switch to 16F628. At 25 parts on
>digikey the price drops to $2.21 each. You can buy 25 of them for the price
>of Stamp Starter Kit.

I'll probably only buy single chips. I certainly don't want 25, I'll never
use them.


>The F876 and F877 are the top end of the family. The lower end of the
>family
>(870,871,872) definitly come in lower in price than the 16F84A.

I like alot of I/O ports for various things, thats why I was looking at the
F876/F877. The built in ADC was a factor too. And a guy here advised me to
look at them too, as I wanted them reprogrammable. I'll have to check out
Wouter's comparison page before I buy another one. As it is, I'm stuck with
a F84A for the time being...


>And the programmer is simpler....

Do you have a link to that? Is there a good list anywhere of the different
programmers, and what chips they are suitable for programming?

Cheers, James.



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2001\09\10@113133 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:41:55AM +0000, James Padfield wrote:
> >Agreed. Then you will definitely want to switch to 16F628. At 25 parts on
> >digikey the price drops to $2.21 each. You can buy 25 of them for the price
> >of Stamp Starter Kit.
>
> I'll probably only buy single chips. I certainly don't want 25, I'll never
> use them.

They are still only $3.88 in singles. The breakover point is 14 chips.
Essentially you can get 11 chips for free if you buy 14 of them.

{Quote hidden}

There is a significant cost jump when you add the extra I/O pins. Both the
16F877 and the 16F874 (40 pin parts) are in the $9 range at digikey.

However if you can live with 28 pins, essentially the addition of port C,
then the ones listed above will come out cheaper than the 16F84A

>
>
> >And the programmer is simpler....
>
> Do you have a link to that? Is there a good list anywhere of the different
> programmers, and what chips they are suitable for programming?

Try the piclist.com page on the subject:

http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm

Also for low voltage programming only you can check out my Trivial LVP
programmer: http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys

BAJ

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2001\09\14@050706 by Benjamin Bromilow

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face
> Do you have a link to that? Is there a good list anywhere of the different
> programmers, and what chips they are suitable for programming?
>
> Cheers, James.

Just to say that although the main NOPPP page says it can only do 16F8x
chips (16F83/84/84A),  there is software available for 16F87xs. It was
originally for Linux but I've succesfully modified it to Dos/Winblows. It
should also easily modify to accept 16F826's though I haven't tried this
because I haven't got any!
The NOPPP design, by the way, is very easy to build (brain fade aside,
ahem)...

Ben
website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/

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2001\09\14@075047 by James Padfield

picon face
I've built the NOPPP, but haven't got around to testing it yet, as I haven't
got around to getting the batteries yet.
Is the software available for programming the 16F87x on it? Where can I get
it?
Cheers, James.



>Just to say that although the main NOPPP page says it can only do 16F8x
>chips (16F83/84/84A),  there is software available for 16F87xs. It was
>originally for Linux but I've succesfully modified it to Dos/Winblows. It
>should also easily modify to accept 16F826's though I haven't tried this
>because I haven't got any!
>The NOPPP design, by the way, is very easy to build (brain fade aside,
>ahem)...
>


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2001\09\14@084059 by Benjamin Bromilow

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face
Just one more thing. I do all my programming using a 12v battery (7Ah gel
acid) and it works just fine. I initially had some concerns that the NOPPP
needed more volts but in practice this isn't the case. A 12v battery and a
5v reg do the job just fine for the voltages.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@084125 by Benjamin Bromilow

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face
The source code for the 16F87x (win 95) can be found at

http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/hereare.htm

the linux source code can be found at

http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/lin.htm

I made this page as the link I had to the page I got the source code from
went down.

The source code allows programming of 16F8x and 16F87x
I've used it to program both 16F877s and 16F84(A)s under Linux and Win98

A 18-40 pin adapter is made up. I simply put an 18-pin next to a 40-pin on
some stripboard and connected the pins as documented on the page

http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/lin.htm

Hope this helps,

Ben

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@094059 by James Padfield

picon face
Thanks, I'll bear that in mind.

>
>Just one more thing. I do all my programming using a 12v battery (7Ah gel
>acid) and it works just fine. I initially had some concerns that the NOPPP
>needed more volts but in practice this isn't the case. A 12v battery and a
>5v reg do the job just fine for the voltages.
>
>
> > I've built the NOPPP, but haven't got around to testing it yet, as I
>haven't
> > got around to getting the batteries yet.
> > Is the software available for programming the 16F87x on it? Where can I
>get
> > it?
> > Cheers, James.
> >
> >
> >


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2001\09\14@094529 by James Padfield

picon face
>The source code for the 16F87x (win 95) can be found at
>
>http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/hereare.htm
>
>the linux source code can be found at
>
>http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/lin.htm

Thanks for those.


>A 18-40 pin adapter is made up. I simply put an 18-pin next to a 40-pin on
>some stripboard and connected the pins as documented on the page
>
>http://website.lineone.net/~btbromilow/lin.htm

I may give this a go at some point. I'll get what I'm building running on
the 16F84A first. Then, when I need extra I/O pins and program memory, I'll
think about gettinga 16F87x.


>Hope this helps,

It does, thank you.

>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@115604 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:34:31PM +0100, Benjamin Bromilow wrote:
> Just one more thing. I do all my programming using a 12v battery (7Ah gel
> acid) and it works just fine. I initially had some concerns that the NOPPP
> needed more volts but in practice this isn't the case. A 12v battery and a
> 5v reg do the job just fine for the voltages.

That's because if you look at the data sheet specifications for the 16F87X
(and possibly the 16F62X) parts that Vpp only needs to be 3.5V above Vcc.

If you're interested in a simpler design, but only does low voltage
programming, take a look at my Trivial LVP programmer:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys

Which consist of one HCT chip and one resistor. We're currently having a
discussion about the programmer and software on the gnupic mailing list.
Archives are available at http://www.gnupic.org

I have reports of success of the Trivial programmer with both 16F87X and
16F62X parts.

BAJ

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