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'[PIC]: Re: PIC development STINKS!'
2002\08\01@095306 by James Paul

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All,

My 2 cents worth.   As I have stated before, I have tried 'C', and
'BASIC', and as far as I'm concerned, with PICS, neither of them is
optimum or even that much faster.  I can put together a program in
assembly nearly as fast as anyone else can in in a high level language.
I own the 'CCS' 'C' compiler as well as PIC Basic Pro, and have used
neither of them in the last year or so.  I use assembly exclusively.
And have found I miss neither of the two HLL's I have.  I honestly
don't know whty people in general don't like assembly.  It does have a
learning curve, (and what doesn't), and it's maybe not as fast to develop
software using assembly at first, but when you get used to it, I'm sure
you'll find its not as difficult to quickly write nearly anything you need.
At least that's my opinion.   Maybe with some of the newer PICs coming
out, 'C' might make a little more sense, but I'll probably stay with
assembly for my projects.

P.S. I program PICs bot as a hobby for myself and as a function of my job.
     I have written programs for several PICS from 8 pin parts to the 68
     pin parts, and have had most of my designs integrated into the design
     of the system we were working on at the time.  And all have been in
     assembly.


                                            Regards,

                                              Jim



>> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\01@102114 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly.

1. It does not eliminate unused (uncalled) code
2. It does not optimize (like: inline code that is called only once)
3. It does not warn when I exceed 8 (or 9, or 2, ...) stack levels
4. It does not (automatically) hack around the stack limit
5. It does not 'share' file registers used in different pieces of code
(pseudo-stack)
6. It is slower to write (general rule: lines/hour is the sam in each
langauge, HLL typically produces a few instrutions poer line fo HLL, so
it codes faster, even considering an asm coder would have used somewhat
fewer instructions)
7. It is more difficult to read
8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even HLL won't
be totally target-independent)
9. It does not transparently handle coding/banking (I know: not all
HLL's do that either)
10. It is more difficult to explain to 14-year old kids
....

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@102946 by Brandon Stewart

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14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S?
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\01@110838 by Dipperstein, Michael

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> From: Wouter van Ooijen [spam_OUTwfTakeThisOuTspamXS4ALL.NL]
>
> > I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly.
>
> 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even
> HLL won't be totally target-independent)

Don't under estimate the importance of target independence.  One chunk of C code
has been the basis for several of our products across PIC16, PIC17, and PIC18
family lines.

In fact one of our products is about to switch from a PIC16F877 to a PIC18F452.
To do that in assembly would have been a huge task.  With C, the biggest parts
of the task were writing a new bootloader and regression testing.

-Mike

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2002\08\01@111325 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S?

Yes, the first Jal users were the kids of the local
'electronics/informatics' group. See
http://www.voti.nl/cursus/e_index.html for the level of what I tried to
learn them (sorry, I is still 16x84-oriented ;)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@114455 by Dave Gomez

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My 12 year old does!!

Dave Gomez

On 8/1/02 7:28 AM, "Brandon Stewart" <.....brandonstewartKILLspamspam@spam@ATTBI.COM> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\01@122852 by Jeremy Walworth

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When I was 14 I was programming my VIC-20 in basic and using the game port
to "interface the real world".

If only I had a PIC and a BASIC compiler when I was 14!!!!!  I would have
had the whole freakin' house wired to PICs.

-J

At 05:11 PM 8/1/02 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jeremy S. Walworth
"I fly, I sail, I throw caution to the wind"  -Jimmy Buffett
http://www.jeremyanddarcy.com

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2002\08\01@134503 by Pic Dude

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> 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S?

Hello, my name is Timmy.  I am 7 years old today.  For
Christmas, Mommy says she'll buy me a PIC programmer and
a 16F628.  Oh, and a Tonka truck.
:-)


Seriously though -- why not 14?  I started in electronics
at 10-ish when I picked up a copy of Radio Electronics,
and quickly moved to the digital world at 11-ish when I got
my first TTL chip.  And kids today amaze me as they start
things earlier and earlier.

Cheers,
-Neil "being careful not to use 16F84 as my example" N.

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2002\08\01@141033 by Bill & Pookie

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You mentioned "lines per hour".  I am interested
in how it is measured (design, coding, debugging,
testing?) and what the normal lines per hour are
for the industry.

Thank you,

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\01@143322 by Brendan Moran

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> > 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S?
>
> Hello, my name is Timmy.  I am 7 years old today.  For
> Christmas, Mommy says she'll buy me a PIC programmer and
> a 16F628.  Oh, and a Tonka truck.
> :-)
>
>
> Seriously though -- why not 14?  I started in electronics
> at 10-ish when I picked up a copy of Radio Electronics,
> and quickly moved to the digital world at 11-ish when I got
> my first TTL chip.  And kids today amaze me as they start
> things earlier and earlier.

I only really got into electronics somewhat seriously when I was 15
or 16 (my grade 11 year), but I had been interested in electronics
since I was 9 or 10 (grade 5 year).  But, seriously, that's the best
time to begin!  I've competed in a few electronics competitions in my
time, and I like to think that I did fairly well; if I hadn't had
that prior interest, I would never have done as well as I did.

- --Brendan

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2002\08\01@143327 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> You mentioned "lines per hour".  I am interested
> in how it is measured (design, coding, debugging,
> testing?) and what the normal lines per hour are
> for the industry.

For my argument it does not matter how it is measured, only that it is
measured consistently. The most accepted way is to measure across the
whole development cycle (maybe exclude requirements phase and field
maintenance). Reporetd rates are some lines per hour (think of 8 or so).
Before you stand up and say 'but I wrote a 100 lines program last hour':
ask yourself where your design, test protocol, user manual etc. are.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\02@055429 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

here is my 2 cent. I am armored with the same tools, and I use (almost)
exclusively CCS C and for me personally it means a 5 to 10 factor in speed
increase factor. Why?

- because I don't need to bother with variable housekeeping (local
variables, bank switching, array management)
- because I don't need to bother with arithmetics (a complex expression
may generate a lot of machine instructions and/or calls)
- because of a vaste amount of predefined routines supporting the built-in
peripherials
- because of the compactness and the readibility of the source code

I have projects exhausting almost the whole 8k code space, about 50k of
source code or so. How could one manage it written in assembly, providing
I need to maintain several projects parallel?

Only my humble opinion.

Regards,
Imre


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On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, James Paul wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> >> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\02@073258 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> - because of a vaste amount of predefined routines supporting
> the built-in peripherials

Ever wondered why we don't have a compareable set of routines in
assembler? (Hint: unsused code elimination? Register (RAM) sharing?)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\04@211859 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.

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My daughter does but she has programmed in Assembly. She will start in on C
this year if all goes to plan.
Larry


At 02:28 PM 8/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Larry G. Nelson Sr.
L.NelsonspamKILLspamieee.org
http://www.mchipguru.com

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