Post by thread:[PIC]: Re: PIC development STINKS!

All, My 2 cents worth. As I have stated before, I have tried 'C', and 'BASIC', and as far as I'm concerned, with PICS, neither of them is optimum or even that much faster. I can put together a program in assembly nearly as fast as anyone else can in in a high level language. I own the 'CCS' 'C' compiler as well as PIC Basic Pro, and have used neither of them in the last year or so. I use assembly exclusively. And have found I miss neither of the two HLL's I have. I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. It does have a learning curve, (and what doesn't), and it's maybe not as fast to develop software using assembly at first, but when you get used to it, I'm sure you'll find its not as difficult to quickly write nearly anything you need. At least that's my opinion. Maybe with some of the newer PICs coming out, 'C' might make a little more sense, but I'll probably stay with assembly for my projects. P.S. I program PICs bot as a hobby for myself and as a function of my job. I have written programs for several PICS from 8 pin parts to the 68 pin parts, and have had most of my designs integrated into the design of the system we were working on at the time. And all have been in assembly. Regards, Jim >> {Original Message removed}

> I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. 1. It does not eliminate unused (uncalled) code 2. It does not optimize (like: inline code that is called only once) 3. It does not warn when I exceed 8 (or 9, or 2, ...) stack levels 4. It does not (automatically) hack around the stack limit 5. It does not 'share' file registers used in different pieces of code (pseudo-stack) 6. It is slower to write (general rule: lines/hour is the sam in each langauge, HLL typically produces a few instrutions poer line fo HLL, so it codes faster, even considering an asm coder would have used somewhat fewer instructions) 7. It is more difficult to read 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even HLL won't be totally target-independent) 9. It does not transparently handle coding/banking (I know: not all HLL's do that either) 10. It is more difficult to explain to 14-year old kids .... Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------ http://www.voti.nl PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? {Quote hidden}> > I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. > > 1. It does not eliminate unused (uncalled) code > 2. It does not optimize (like: inline code that is called only once) > 3. It does not warn when I exceed 8 (or 9, or 2, ...) stack levels > 4. It does not (automatically) hack around the stack limit > 5. It does not 'share' file registers used in different pieces of code > (pseudo-stack) > 6. It is slower to write (general rule: lines/hour is the sam in each > langauge, HLL typically produces a few instrutions poer line fo HLL, so > it codes faster, even considering an asm coder would have used somewhat > fewer instructions) > 7. It is more difficult to read > 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even HLL won't > be totally target-independent) > 9. It does not transparently handle coding/banking (I know: not all > HLL's do that either) > 10. It is more difficult to explain to 14-year old kids > .... > > Wouter van Ooijen > > -- ------------------------------------ > http://www.voti.nl > PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> From: Wouter van Ooijen [spam_OUTwfTakeThisOuTXS4ALL.NL] > > > I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. > > 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even > HLL won't be totally target-independent) Don't under estimate the importance of target independence. One chunk of C code has been the basis for several of our products across PIC16, PIC17, and PIC18 family lines. In fact one of our products is about to switch from a PIC16F877 to a PIC18F452. To do that in assembly would have been a huge task. With C, the biggest parts of the task were writing a new bootloader and regression testing. -Mike -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

My 12 year old does!! Dave Gomez On 8/1/02 7:28 AM, "Brandon Stewart" <.....brandonstewartKILLspam@spam@ATTBI.COM> wrote: {Quote hidden}> 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? >>> I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. >> >> 1. It does not eliminate unused (uncalled) code >> 2. It does not optimize (like: inline code that is called only once) >> 3. It does not warn when I exceed 8 (or 9, or 2, ...) stack levels >> 4. It does not (automatically) hack around the stack limit >> 5. It does not 'share' file registers used in different pieces of code >> (pseudo-stack) >> 6. It is slower to write (general rule: lines/hour is the sam in each >> langauge, HLL typically produces a few instrutions poer line fo HLL, so >> it codes faster, even considering an asm coder would have used somewhat >> fewer instructions) >> 7. It is more difficult to read >> 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even HLL won't >> be totally target-independent) >> 9. It does not transparently handle coding/banking (I know: not all >> HLL's do that either) >> 10. It is more difficult to explain to 14-year old kids >> .... >> >> Wouter van Ooijen >> >> -- ------------------------------------ >> http://www.voti.nl >> PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting >> >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >> (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics >> >> > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

When I was 14 I was programming my VIC-20 in basic and using the game port to "interface the real world". If only I had a PIC and a BASIC compiler when I was 14!!!!! I would have had the whole freakin' house wired to PICs. -J At 05:11 PM 8/1/02 +0200, you wrote: {Quote hidden}> > 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? > >Yes, the first Jal users were the kids of the local >'electronics/informatics' group. See >http://www.voti.nl/cursus/e_index.html for the level of what I tried to >learn them (sorry, I is still 16x84-oriented ;) > >Wouter van Ooijen > >-- ------------------------------------ >http://www.voti.nl >PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics Jeremy S. Walworth "I fly, I sail, I throw caution to the wind" -Jimmy Buffett http://www.jeremyanddarcy.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? Hello, my name is Timmy. I am 7 years old today. For Christmas, Mommy says she'll buy me a PIC programmer and a 16F628. Oh, and a Tonka truck. :-) Seriously though -- why not 14? I started in electronics at 10-ish when I picked up a copy of Radio Electronics, and quickly moved to the digital world at 11-ish when I got my first TTL chip. And kids today amaze me as they start things earlier and earlier. Cheers, -Neil "being careful not to use 16F84 as my example" N. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > 14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? > > Hello, my name is Timmy. I am 7 years old today. For > Christmas, Mommy says she'll buy me a PIC programmer and > a 16F628. Oh, and a Tonka truck. > :-) > > > Seriously though -- why not 14? I started in electronics > at 10-ish when I picked up a copy of Radio Electronics, > and quickly moved to the digital world at 11-ish when I got > my first TTL chip. And kids today amaze me as they start > things earlier and earlier. I only really got into electronics somewhat seriously when I was 15 or 16 (my grade 11 year), but I had been interested in electronics since I was 9 or 10 (grade 5 year). But, seriously, that's the best time to begin! I've competed in a few electronics competitions in my time, and I like to think that I did fairly well; if I hadn't had that prior interest, I would never have done as well as I did. - --Brendan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> iQA/AwUBPUl+xwVk8xtQuK+BEQJCFgCfZ6ZOS90K3tR5BSq775pOfwh+khoAoM/2 7bucqAcWIjNfh1WDsAyHkyh/ =qhhT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> You mentioned "lines per hour". I am interested > in how it is measured (design, coding, debugging, > testing?) and what the normal lines per hour are > for the industry. For my argument it does not matter how it is measured, only that it is measured consistently. The most accepted way is to measure across the whole development cycle (maybe exclude requirements phase and field maintenance). Reporetd rates are some lines per hour (think of 8 or so). Before you stand up and say 'but I wrote a 100 lines program last hour': ask yourself where your design, test protocol, user manual etc. are. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------ http://www.voti.nl PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Hello, here is my 2 cent. I am armored with the same tools, and I use (almost) exclusively CCS C and for me personally it means a 5 to 10 factor in speed increase factor. Why? - because I don't need to bother with variable housekeeping (local variables, bank switching, array management) - because I don't need to bother with arithmetics (a complex expression may generate a lot of machine instructions and/or calls) - because of a vaste amount of predefined routines supporting the built-in peripherials - because of the compactness and the readibility of the source code I have projects exhausting almost the whole 8k code space, about 50k of source code or so. How could one manage it written in assembly, providing I need to maintain several projects parallel? Only my humble opinion. Regards, Imre +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity | | to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or | | privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or | | other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this | | information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient | | is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the | | sender and delete the material from any computer. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, James Paul wrote: {Quote hidden}> All, > > My 2 cents worth. As I have stated before, I have tried 'C', and > 'BASIC', and as far as I'm concerned, with PICS, neither of them is > optimum or even that much faster. I can put together a program in > assembly nearly as fast as anyone else can in in a high level language. > I own the 'CCS' 'C' compiler as well as PIC Basic Pro, and have used > neither of them in the last year or so. I use assembly exclusively. > And have found I miss neither of the two HLL's I have. I honestly > don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. It does have a > learning curve, (and what doesn't), and it's maybe not as fast to develop > software using assembly at first, but when you get used to it, I'm sure > you'll find its not as difficult to quickly write nearly anything you need. > At least that's my opinion. Maybe with some of the newer PICs coming > out, 'C' might make a little more sense, but I'll probably stay with > assembly for my projects. > > P.S. I program PICs bot as a hobby for myself and as a function of my job. > I have written programs for several PICS from 8 pin parts to the 68 > pin parts, and have had most of my designs integrated into the design > of the system we were working on at the time. And all have been in > assembly. > > > Regards, > > Jim > > > > >> {Original Message removed}

My daughter does but she has programmed in Assembly. She will start in on C this year if all goes to plan. Larry At 02:28 PM 8/1/02 +0000, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>14 YEAR OLD KIDS PLAY WITH MCU'S? > > > I honestly don't know whty people in general don't like assembly. > > > > 1. It does not eliminate unused (uncalled) code > > 2. It does not optimize (like: inline code that is called only once) > > 3. It does not warn when I exceed 8 (or 9, or 2, ...) stack levels > > 4. It does not (automatically) hack around the stack limit > > 5. It does not 'share' file registers used in different pieces of code > > (pseudo-stack) > > 6. It is slower to write (general rule: lines/hour is the sam in each > > langauge, HLL typically produces a few instrutions poer line fo HLL, so > > it codes faster, even considering an asm coder would have used somewhat > > fewer instructions) > > 7. It is more difficult to read > > 8. It is more difficult get target-independence (I know, even HLL won't > > be totally target-independent) > > 9. It does not transparently handle coding/banking (I know: not all > > HLL's do that either) > > 10. It is more difficult to explain to 14-year old kids > > .... > > > > Wouter van Ooijen > > > > -- ------------------------------------ > > http://www.voti.nl > > PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > > > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics Larry G. Nelson Sr. L.NelsonKILLspamieee.org http://www.mchipguru.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu