Post by thread:[PIC]: MSP430 question

Does anyone here have real working experience with the MSP430 chips?? Specifically re operating speed/power as compared to a PIC? Having browsed the datasheet and instruction set i'm still confused as to how many clock cycles/mips etc and how an MSP430 at 8MHz xtal might compare to a PIC 14-bit core at 20MHz xtal. And any experiences with the low price end of the range, pref OTP etc. I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" but i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. Arrow says lowest price part is F1101A flash at $1.27 for 1000q, but the TI web site mentions OTP parts although vaguely. :o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: Roman Black [SMTP:.....fastvidKILLspam@spam@EZY.NET.AU] > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:48 PM > To: PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: [PIC]: MSP430 question > > Does anyone here have real working experience with > the MSP430 chips?? Specifically re operating > speed/power as compared to a PIC? Having browsed > the datasheet and instruction set i'm still confused > as to how many clock cycles/mips etc and how an > MSP430 at 8MHz xtal might compare to a PIC 14-bit > core at 20MHz xtal. > > And any experiences with the low price end of the > range, pref OTP etc. I've seen the TI website > claim of "prices starting at $0.49" but i've not > seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. > Arrow says lowest price part is F1101A flash at > $1.27 for 1000q, but the TI web site mentions > OTP parts although vaguely. :o) > -Roman > A heretic, kill him! :o) You didn't even change the tag to [OLM] (other lesser micros)! I admitt to having glanced at the datasheet and talked to the TI rep, and the MSP devices did seem to offer remarkably low power consumption compared to the PIC. I was overly interested as the PIC's power consumption is a tiny fraction of our total products power. Mike -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Roman, I just completed a design conversion for a client from a PIC16C926 to MSP430F437. My experience was very positive -- about the same BOM cost, now have 32K Flash, 1K RAM, MUCH better development tools and hardware debugging from the JTAG interface and best of all more than doubled the battery life of the unit. Would have done better than that, except we have one sensor whose baseline current can't be reduced. I haven't done any "paying" projects with the smaller devices, but I do have a starter kit for the MSP430F1232 part. You might want to purchase one of these from TI, they are less than $100 and include a proto board with ZIF socket and access to all I/O pins, unlimited assembler, 4K code limited C compiler, JTAG programming/debug pod and cable. A really good way to give one a "test drive". As a general observation, I've found the code space used to be about equivalent between the two families. The MSP430 CPU is highly orthogonal so many things that take a couple instructions with the PIC can be accomplished in one instruction for the MSP430. The MSP430 has a real stack, pointers (all 16 bit), a linear address space, program memory accessible to the CPU, low interrupt latency and of course a 16- bit CPU. The peripheral modules are roughly equivalent, but I've found that TI's more advanced peripheral modules are much nicer than the PICs (much more versatile in low power modes -- you can do a LOT of things with the MSP430 and no CPU intervention and while in low power mode). To get the absolute lowest power consumption, you have to adopt a bit of a different mindset from the PICs. But I will vouch for the fact you can get extremely low power consumption from the MSP430. I haven't measured direct performance vs. PIC, but my current project runs the CPU at 1.048576 MHz and the performance is noticeably better than the 4 MHz PIC in several areas (math mostly, owing to the 16 bit CPU) and about equivalent on the rest. I could probably run a few quick test programs on the MSP430F1232 board and send you the results if you are interested. Contact me off-list, if so. I really like these parts. This was the first project in a long time that I had no development tool or chip-related hassles. I've been doing professional development work for almost 25 years now and this is the first family of chips I can remember being excited about in many years. They won't make me give up using PICs when appropriate, but when all other things are equal, I'd pick the MSP430 parts -- even over the 18F family of parts. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:47:48 +1100, Roman Black wrote: {Quote hidden}> Does anyone here have real working experience with the MSP430 chips?? > Specifically re operating speed/power as compared to a PIC? Having > browsed the datasheet and instruction set i'm still confused as to > how many clock cycles/mips etc and how an MSP430 at 8MHz xtal might > compare to a PIC 14-bit core at 20MHz xtal. > > And any experiences with the low price end of the range, pref OTP > etc. I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" but > i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. > Arrow says lowest price part is F1101A flash at $1.27 for 1000q, but > the TI web site mentions OTP parts although vaguely. :o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Oh, I also forgot to mention -- our fellow PIClister, Tsevan at Olimex has some very nice inexpensive MSP430F family prototype boards and JTAG tools. They are essentially exactly what TI sells, but less expensive. You could purchase them from him for less than $50US and download the software from TI's web site or get a distributor/sales rep to provide the MSP430 CDROM to you. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Thanks Matt for the info. Sorry to other list members that i'm suggesting "heresy" but i'm getting annoyed at Microchip for seemingly ignoring Moore's law. Seems the lowest cost PIC a few years back was a 12c508 and little has changed! I love the idea of the new PIC 18 series but we're not seeing many of them under $1. In cases where you don't need fancy USARTs, ADCs etc but need a lot of processing power for min $$ Microchip don't seem to care. > I just completed a design conversion for a client from a PIC16C926 to > MSP430F437. My experience was very positive -- about the same BOM cost, > now have 32K Flash, 1K RAM, MUCH better development tools and hardware > debugging from the JTAG interface and best of all more than doubled the > battery life of the unit. Would have done better than that, except we > have one sensor whose baseline current can't be reduced. Excellent. :o) > I haven't done any "paying" projects with the smaller devices, but I do > have a starter kit for the MSP430F1232 part. You might want to purchase > one of these from TI, they are less than $100 and include a proto board > with ZIF socket and access to all I/O pins, unlimited assembler, 4K > code limited C compiler, JTAG programming/debug pod and cable. A really > good way to give one a "test drive". Sounds nice. I'm more interested in the $0.49 claim and really don't need the peripherals, but will check out the F1232. Nice to get a 4k C compiler too. > As a general observation, I've found the code space used to be about > equivalent between the two families. The MSP430 CPU is highly > orthogonal so many things that take a couple instructions with the PIC > can be accomplished in one instruction for the MSP430. The MSP430 has a > real stack, pointers (all 16 bit), a linear address space, program > memory accessible to the CPU, low interrupt latency and of course a 16- > bit CPU. Yep, very nice! :o) > The peripheral modules are roughly equivalent, but I've found > that TI's more advanced peripheral modules are much nicer than the PICs > (much more versatile in low power modes -- you can do a LOT of things > with the MSP430 and no CPU intervention and while in low power mode). Yep, I noticed some nice options with the clocks and timers, 430 definitely seems more adjustable with the peripherals. > To get the absolute lowest power consumption, you have to adopt a bit > of a different mindset from the PICs. But I will vouch for the fact you > can get extremely low power consumption from the MSP430. Low power is great, but at this point i'm still more interested in max processing power for the $$. > I haven't measured direct performance vs. PIC, but my current project > runs the CPU at 1.048576 MHz and the performance is noticeably better > than the 4 MHz PIC in several areas (math mostly, owing to the 16 bit > CPU) and about equivalent on the rest. Excellent feedback, thank you Matt. So since the 430 will do 5MHz on *internal* clock, (zero xtal costs) that's more than 6x faster than a PIC on internal clock. And from a cheaper micro... > I could probably run a few quick test programs on the MSP430F1232 board > and send you the results if you are interested. Contact me off-list, if > so. Thanks a LOT for the offer, but it's probably better for me to get a 430 kit myself and run my intended app on it, saves you hassle and gives me more accurate results for my exact app. But I do appreciate that very nice offer! :o) > I really like these parts. This was the first project in a long time > that I had no development tool or chip-related hassles. That's good, i'm a bit annoyed that the 430F1101 datasheet is quite rough and sketchy compared to the PIC ones. The TI web page is a bit of a let down too, based on a quick browse. > I've been doing > professional development work for almost 25 years now and this is the > first family of chips I can remember being excited about in many years. > They won't make me give up using PICs when appropriate, but when all > other things are equal, I'd pick the MSP430 parts -- even over the 18F > family of parts. Excellent info Matt, thank you. :o) When it comes to bang for the buck the 430 might be a good one. It's such a shame Microchip don't care about the low end of the market. If they stuck a decent 16bit timer in the 16c505 (ala 12F675) and bumped it to 5mips on internal clock, then dropped the price to $0.50 i'd be satisfied even though it is still less powerful than a 430. Sure the 12F675 is nice but again it's a case of adding new peripherals and keeping the price up, rather than introducing a lower-cost part with minimum features. Surely I can't be the only designer wanting a fast CHEAP micro?? Unless they do something soon i'm really feeling like jumping ship. More and more i'm thinking that PICs are for hobby use and not for "real" production. :o( -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu>

> Excellent info Matt, thank you. :o) When it comes to > bang for the buck the 430 might be a good one. It's > such a shame Microchip don't care about the low end > of the market. If they stuck a decent 16bit timer in the > 16c505 (ala 12F675) and bumped it to 5mips on internal > clock, then dropped the price to $0.50 i'd be satisfied > even though it is still less powerful than a 430. > Sure the 12F675 is nice but again it's a case of adding > new peripherals and keeping the price up, rather than > introducing a lower-cost part with minimum features. > Surely I can't be the only designer wanting a fast > CHEAP micro?? Unless they do something soon i'm really > feeling like jumping ship. More and more i'm thinking > that PICs are for hobby use and not for "real" > production. :o( There is certainly a place for the "cheap as possible" micro, but Microchip has to go where the money is. I don't know how representative the applications that come my way are, but I find myself often wishing for more peripherals in a smaller package. I've used a 17C752 at least twice now just because I needed two UARTs in the same chip. I would like things like a 16F628 with two UARTS and 8K of code space. The few applications I've had where an 8 pin part was sufficient, the speed of the 12C508A has also been good enough. Microchip had planned an 8 pin 18F part a year or two ago, but the project was aborted. I was told that was because they determined there wasn't a sufficient market for a high function 8 pin part. At the time I had no personal experience that pointed otherwise. They developed the 12F628/675 instead. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu>

>I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" >but i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. I have just been glancing through the Feb 6 copy of EDN, and the TI advert in there suggests MSP430F437 at $4.90/1k (least it says "Price 1k") which I take to be 49c each. Also in this edition, the Design Ideas has a nifty idea for those of you doing critical things and wanting power to be dropped off if the micro locks up. See the first idea in the file at www.e-insite.net/ednmag/index.asp?layout=issueTOC&pubdate=2%2F6%2F200 3 (scroll down and you can get each idea as an html, or the lot as a pdf). -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Alan B. Pearce wrote: > > >I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" > >but i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. > > I have just been glancing through the Feb 6 copy of EDN, and the TI advert > in there suggests MSP430F437 at $4.90/1k (least it says "Price 1k") which I > take to be 49c each. That 430 model has 32kb rom, 1k ram, 256byte eeprom, ADC etc etc. It's one of the higher end models and i'm guessing the price you saw is $4.90 EACH in 1000q lots. :o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

>That 430 model has 32kb rom, 1k ram, 256byte eeprom, >ADC etc etc. It's one of the higher end models and >i'm guessing the price you saw is $4.90 EACH in >1000q lots. :o) Yeah I did wonder, which is why I put the rider in brackets about how the advert is worded. Not knowing the normal pricing of these I guessed, and figured I could be guessing wrong, but mentioned it as someone was enquiring recently. :))) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:49:33 -0000, you wrote: >>I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" >>but i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. > >I have just been glancing through the Feb 6 copy of EDN, and the TI advert >in there suggests MSP430F437 at $4.90/1k (least it says "Price 1k") which I >take to be 49c each. You take wrong. This notation means $4.90 each, in quantities of 1000 If it looks too good to be true, it usually is. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Alan B. Pearce wrote: > I have just been glancing through the Feb 6 copy of EDN, and the TI advert > in there suggests MSP430F437 at $4.90/1k I think I found it here (cut and pasted); ------------------ Texas Instruments' MSP430C1101 microcontroller has a power consumption as low as 0.7 5A in standby mode and 1.3 5A active. It is available for $0.49 in high-volume and is 100 percent compatible with all existing MSP430 family members. The new MSP430C1101 includes 1kB of ROM, 128 bytes of RAM, a watchdog timer, 3-channel multi-function 16-bit pulse-width modulation (PWM) Timer_A and an analog comparator that supports high-precision analog-to-digital conversion for cost sensitive applications. Eliminating the need for software intensive polling commonly used with other low-cost MCUs, the MSP430C1101 like other high-end MSP430 derivatives, also offers vectored interrupt capability on every I/O pin and with every peripheral supporting sophisticated event-driven operation. <p> A flexible clock system with five low-power modes enables the MSP430 family4s low-power performance. Engineers can tune system clocking to exactly meet the requirements for their application. For example, the new MSP430C1101 delivers the industry4s lowest current consumption of 1.3 micro-amps active at 4 kHz, especially useful when considering that the device is performing true 16-bit instructions. For high-performance applications, an integrated digitally controlled oscillator (DCO) or external high-speed crystal can be used to clock the system at 160 micro-amps per million instructions per second (MIPS). For very cost sensitive applications the device can operate from the DCO with no external components. The operating voltage of the new MSP430x11x1 product-line is 1.8-3.6V with up to 8 MIPS of performance available on demand. <p> For development, a $49 Flash Emulation Tool (FET) MSP-FET430X110 is available now. The FET supports real-time in-system development accessing the Flash devices embedded emulation capability. The tool comes complete with a JTAG interface target board and Flash devices as well as a complete IDE including a debugger, assembler/linker and 4kB IAR C-Compiler. <p> ------------------ Sorry for the long (heretic?) post. :o) I was quoted $1.27 USD for the MSP430F1101, the flash rom version in 1000q. The 430C1101 is either OTP or mask programmed, i'm still waiting on the agent to get back to me with more details. -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

At 03:49 PM 2/21/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >I've seen the TI website claim of "prices starting at $0.49" > >but i've not seen a lot of evidence to back that up yet. > >I have just been glancing through the Feb 6 copy of EDN, and the TI advert >in there suggests MSP430F437 at $4.90/1k (least it says "Price 1k") which I >take to be 49c each. It means you (supposedly) can get 1,000 pieces for $4,900 + any tax and shipping. Digikey wants $5,825, and US $28,426 for 5,000 pieces ($5.69 each) so shop around. ;-) BTW, $4.90 for 1,000 pieces would be 0.49 cent each, you can't get much more than a diode for that. ;-) Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

A >Sorry for the long (heretic?) post. :o) >I was quoted $1.27 USD for the MSP430F1101, the flash >rom version in 1000q. This one was advertised at $0.99. >The 430C1101 is either OTP or >mask programmed, i'm still waiting on the agent to get >back to me with more details. http://www.e-insite.net/ecnmag/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA240724 why wait: http://www-s.ti.com/sc/ds/msp430c1101.pdf It's mask ROM, and the $0.49 advertised price is in "high volume". If you get a quote on the MOQ, lead time, and mask charge, I'd like to know, offlist if you'd prefer, as this certainly isn't a [PIC]: Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" spamBeGonespeffspamBeGoneinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads