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'[PIC:]16F877 to 18F???'
2004\01\14@072050 by Peter Onion

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I've just rejoined this list after a few years away !
(Hence I forgot to add a subject TAG first time, sorry !)

I have a 16F877 development system I built a few years ago, an now I'm
considering moving to newer 18FXXX devices.

My development system has a 16F627 with a RS-232 i/f to the PC and uses
ICSP to program the 16F877.

Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
(IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?

Peter.

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2004\01\14@080845 by Olin Lathrop

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Peter Onion wrote:
> Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
> or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
> (IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?

The electrical details like 13V on MCLR, clock on PGC, serial data on PGD
are the same.  The low level protocol is very different.

Of course this is all spelled out in the programming specs.


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2004\01\14@085938 by

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Peter Onion wrote :

> I have a 16F877 development system I built a few years ago, an now I'm
> considering moving to newer 18FXXX devices.
>
> My development system has a 16F627 with a RS-232 i/f to the
> PC and uses ICSP to program the 16F877.
>
> Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
> or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
> (IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?

Modify ? Why not simple *use* a programmer that supports whatever chip
you'd like to use ?

Anyway, you should expect the programming protocol to be different
and non-compatible...

Jan-Erik.

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2004\01\14@100958 by Peter Onion

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On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 13:07, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Peter Onion wrote:
> > Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
> > or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
> > (IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?
>
> The electrical details like 13V on MCLR, clock on PGC, serial data on PGD
> are the same.  The low level protocol is very different.

Thats good !  Looks like NO hardware changes need to my programmer.
Atleast I won't have to worry about getting that right again :-)

The "protocol is very different" can be tackled by a hacking the 16F627
code in the programmer.

> Of course this is all spelled out in the programming specs.

Yep, I've had a look at them now that I know the hardware isn't going to
be a big issue.

Thanks.

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2004\01\14@110229 by Byron A Jeff

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On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 03:09:55PM +0000, Peter Onion wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 13:07, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > Peter Onion wrote:
> > > Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
> > > or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
> > > (IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?
> >
> > The electrical details like 13V on MCLR, clock on PGC, serial data on PGD
> > are the same.  The low level protocol is very different.
>
> Thats good !  Looks like NO hardware changes need to my programmer.
> Atleast I won't have to worry about getting that right again :-)

One change. The LVP pin is RB5 on 18F chips whereas it's RB4 on 16F.
A good idea is to ground both pins through a 10k resistor to ensure that
the pin stays grounded during the programming operation.

BAJ

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2004\01\14@110438 by Peter Onion

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On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 13:58, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote:

>
> Modify ? Why not simple *use* a programmer that supports whatever chip
> you'd like to use ?

Because I DON'T have one that supports the 18FXXX (yet) but I DO have
one that can be modified so to do.

Peter.

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2004\01\14@111058 by Brian Clewer

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BAJ wrote:

> One change. The LVP pin is RB5 on 18F chips whereas it's RB4 on 16F.
> A good idea is to ground both pins through a 10k resistor to ensure that
> the pin stays grounded during the programming operation.


Very good point - but I think you meant RB3 on the 16F parts ;-)

Brian.

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2004\01\14@111936 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> One change. The LVP pin is RB5 on 18F chips whereas it's RB4 on 16F.
>> A good idea is to ground both pins through a 10k resistor to ensure that
>> the pin stays grounded during the programming operation.
>
>
>Very good point - but I think you meant RB3 on the 16F parts ;-)

Well it is on the 16F87x, but I think it is RB4 on the 16F62x series. It
certainly varies among the chip families.

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2004\01\14@113223 by Byron A Jeff

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On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 04:17:07PM -0000, Brian Clewer wrote:
> BAJ wrote:
>
> > One change. The LVP pin is RB5 on 18F chips whereas it's RB4 on 16F.
> > A good idea is to ground both pins through a 10k resistor to ensure that
> > the pin stays grounded during the programming operation.
>
>
> Very good point - but I think you meant RB3 on the 16F parts ;-)

Actually the 18 pin parts like the 16F628 use RB4, the 28 and 40 pin 16F parts
like the 16F877 uses RB3, and the 18F parts uses RB5.

A maze I tell you. A maze.

BAJ

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2004\01\14@113429 by Peter Onion

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On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 16:02, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 03:09:55PM +0000, Peter Onion wrote:
> > On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 13:07, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > > Peter Onion wrote:
> > > > Q:  Is the ICSP spec for 18FXXX devices the same as it was for 16F877,
> > > > or will I need to modify the programmer to use it with 18FXXX devices
> > > > (IE is the ICSP spec the same) ?
> > >
> > > The electrical details like 13V on MCLR, clock on PGC, serial data on PGD
> > > are the same.  The low level protocol is very different.
> >
> > Thats good !  Looks like NO hardware changes need to my programmer.
> > Atleast I won't have to worry about getting that right again :-)
>
> One change. The LVP pin is RB5 on 18F chips whereas it's RB4 on 16F.
> A good idea is to ground both pins through a 10k resistor to ensure that
> the pin stays grounded during the programming operation.
>
> BAJ

OK, but my programmer uses High Voltage programming so this shouldn't be
an issue.

Peter.

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2004\01\14@114919 by Alan B. Pearce

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>OK, but my programmer uses High Voltage programming so
>this shouldn't be an issue.

Be careful. It can be an issue until you have disabled the LVP bits in the
config word. Ay least until then you do need to take care of it. IIRC it is
also a problem on some of the 16F62x chips even when LVP is disabled.

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2004\01\14@130923 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> OK, but my programmer uses High Voltage programming so this
> shouldn't be an issue.

Don't be caught by this - there are at least rumours that on some PICs
HVP will fail if the LVP pin is not tied down. IMHO this is like putting
a 0u1 capacitor near the PIC: it costs next to nothing, it is probably
not needed in the majority of cases, but do you want to be the minority
and spend a few days hunting down the problems by not following the
advice?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\01\15@051431 by Peter Onion

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On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 18:06, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > OK, but my programmer uses High Voltage programming so this
> > shouldn't be an issue.
>
> Don't be caught by this - there are at least rumours that on some PICs
> HVP will fail if the LVP pin is not tied down. IMHO this is like putting
> a 0u1 capacitor near the PIC: it costs next to nothing, it is probably
> not needed in the majority of cases, but do you want to be the minority
> and spend a few days hunting down the problems by not following the
> advice?
>
> Wouter van Ooijen

Ok, point taken, I'll put a Pull Down on the pin just in case ;-)

Peter.

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