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'[PIC:] USB VID/PID thoughts'
2005\02\03@082957 by Mike Harrison

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The subject of USB VID/PID allocations for low-volume users has come up recently - I had a thought
on how Microchip could help users with this :
Microchip get a VID allocated for products using its USB parts.

When you buy an ICE processor module or eval board supporting a USB part, you get a few PIDs
allocated with it (maybe 16), and additional ones can be requested by quoting the serial number.


2005\02\03@123830 by Ake Hedman

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face
Mike Harrison wrote:

>The subject of USB VID/PID allocations for low-volume users has come up recently - I had a thought
>on how Microchip could help users with this :
>Microchip get a VID allocated for products using its USB parts.
>
>When you buy an ICE processor module or eval board supporting a USB part, you get a few PIDs
>allocated with it (maybe 16), and additional ones can be requested by quoting the serial number.
>
>
>  
>
This is a great idea!

On the same tema (almost). Is there any sample code available for the new 18F devices?

/Ake

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\02\03@172410 by Andrew Warren

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Mike Harrison <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> wrote:

> The subject of USB VID/PID allocations for low-volume users has
> come up recently - I had a thought on how Microchip could help
> users with this : Microchip get a VID allocated for products using
> its USB parts.
>
> When you buy an ICE processor module or eval board supporting a USB
> part, you get a few PIDs allocated with it (maybe 16), and
> additional ones can be requested by quoting the serial number.

   Since you already don't care about being certified, or being able
   to use the USB logo on your product, why go to that much trouble?
   Why not just pick any arbitrary VID/PID combination that isn't
   already known to Windows XP?

   -Andrew

=== Andrew Warren -- .....aiwKILLspamspam@spam@cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== (but open to offers)
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

2005\02\03@175838 by Lee McLaren

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face
While I am doing just what Andrew suggests I would like to be able to
buy a block of PID's or better still be given, while I am using the
18f4550's to do my USB and a ICD2 I have not brought any development
boards from MC so I would suit me a lot better if you could quote proof
of purchase of their chips to get a block.

Ake,
there are some good samples avail from MC, go to the home page and look
for the link to USB and follow your nose..


regards

Lee McLaren


Andrew Warren wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\02\03@181628 by Ake Hedman

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Lee McLaren wrote:

> While I am doing just what Andrew suggests I would like to be able to
> buy a block of PID's or better still be given, while I am using the
> 18f4550's to do my USB and a ICD2 I have not brought any development
> boards from MC so I would suit me a lot better if you could quote
> proof of purchase of their chips to get a block.
>
> Ake,
> there are some good samples avail from MC, go to the home page and
> look for the link to USB and follow your nose..
>

Did that for a while ago and only found the 745 code. Probably my big nose that was in the way  ;-) Will have a new look. Thanks!

/Ake

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\02\03@184239 by D. Jay Newman

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> > While I am doing just what Andrew suggests I would like to be able to
> > buy a block of PID's or better still be given, while I am using the
> > 18f4550's to do my USB and a ICD2 I have not brought any development
> > boards from MC so I would suit me a lot better if you could quote
> > proof of purchase of their chips to get a block.

It would be nice, but expensive for Microchip.

Why not get a group of people together for a group buy? I think that the
cost of only a couple of thousand for a VID. I'd be willing to put up
a couple hundred for a block of PIDs.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Polititions and civilations come and
EraseMEjayspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTsprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\02\03@192011 by Mike Harrison

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face
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:24:36 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

>> > While I am doing just what Andrew suggests I would like to be able to
>> > buy a block of PID's or better still be given, while I am using the
>> > 18f4550's to do my USB and a ICD2 I have not brought any development
>> > boards from MC so I would suit me a lot better if you could quote
>> > proof of purchase of their chips to get a block.
>
>It would be nice, but expensive for Microchip.

Why ? They probably already have a VID for their USB devtool products

Proof of Purchase gets complicated, but maybe it could be integrated into buy.Microchip.com, i.e.
you can request a PID when ordering any USB parts.


2005\02\03@195423 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
>
> Why ? They probably already have a VID for their USB devtool products
>
> Proof of Purchase gets complicated, but maybe it could be integrated into
> buy.Microchip.com, i.e.
> you can request a PID when ordering any USB parts.
>

Couldn't someone just buy a VID, then sell PIDs on a website? Just fill
out a form, pay a couple bucks, and you're emailed a PID. The script on
the website would put all the info in a database, making sure the PIDs are
unique.

Harold




--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\02\03@203834 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
harold, Harold, that'd be too easy! Nobody would make any money!

Sorry, it would NEVER fly. <G>

--Bob

Harold Hallikainen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
attachspamspam_OUTengineer.cotse.net .
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http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\02\03@210924 by Andrew Warren

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Harold Hallikainen <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu> wrote:

> Couldn't someone just buy a VID, then sell PIDs on a website? Just
> fill out a form, pay a couple bucks, and you're emailed a PID. The
> script on the website would put all the info in a database, making
> sure the PIDs are unique.

Harold:

This has come up before on the piclist.

If you do things the "right" way (i.e., you pay to become a USB-IF
member and get a VID, then assign your own PIDs to your products),
the system guarantees unique VID/PID combinations:  The USB-IF
ensures that your VID is unique, and since it's both trivially easy
AND IN YOUR BEST INTEREST to make each of your product IDs unique,
you do so.

With the system you propose, anyone who wants to save the money that
you're charging for PIDs -- because he's "just making a few" of a  
particular product, or just because he's cheap -- will simply use
your VID and choose an arbitrary PID without paying you... And it
seems pretty likely, given the ways of the world, that just about
everyone who uses your VID will do this.

That situation is no better than one in which people just make up an
arbitrary VID/PID pay no money to ANYONE:  There's still a chance of
colliding with another device's ID, you still can't get your device
certified or use the USB logo, you KNOW you won't go through USB
Compliance testing, your customers may not have the same excellent
user experience that USB-logoed devices provide...

But as I've said before, who cares?  If you're only doing extremely-
low-volume production and don't care about doing things "right"
anyway, none of that matters.  I mean, as a last resort, you can
always just reprogram new VID/PIDs into your customers' devices if it
turns out that they conflict with others.  Big deal.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- KILLspamaiwKILLspamspamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== (but open to offers)
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

2005\02\04@023546 by Ake Hedman

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face
D. Jay Newman wrote:

>>>While I am doing just what Andrew suggests I would like to be able to
>>>buy a block of PID's or better still be given, while I am using the
>>>18f4550's to do my USB and a ICD2 I have not brought any development
>>>boards from MC so I would suit me a lot better if you could quote
>>>proof of purchase of their chips to get a block.
>>>      
>>>
>
>It would be nice, but expensive for Microchip.
>
>Why not get a group of people together for a group buy? I think that the
>cost of only a couple of thousand for a VID. I'd be willing to put up
>a couple hundred for a block of PIDs.
>  
>
Excellent thinking.  I would to!

Regards
/Ake

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\02\04@030642 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >Why not get a group of people together for a group buy? I
> think that the
> >cost of only a couple of thousand for a VID. I'd be willing to put up
> >a couple hundred for a block of PIDs.

OK, I'll see whether I can get through the officials at usb.org and get
a vendor ID.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\04@082835 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Andrew Warren wrote:

Andy, I'm glad to see you finally fixed your email program to no longer put
those annoying leading spaces in front of all your lines.  Thanks.

> With the system you propose, anyone who wants to save the money that
> you're charging for PIDs -- because he's "just making a few" of a
> particular product, or just because he's cheap -- will simply use
> your VID and choose an arbitrary PID without paying you... And it
> seems pretty likely, given the ways of the world, that just about
> everyone who uses your VID will do this.

But why would the VID you sell PIDs for be any different than any other VID.
If you're going to "steal" PIDs, you can pick any VID you like, like
Cypress's for example.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\02\04@123750 by Andrew Warren

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face
Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> wrote:

> > it seems pretty likely, given the ways of the world, that just about
> > everyone who uses your VID will [just choose an arbitrary PID
> > without paying you for it].
>
> But why would the VID you sell PIDs for be any different than any other
> VID. If you're going to "steal" PIDs, you can pick any VID you like,
> like Cypress's for example.

Olin:

That's exactly what I said in the paragraph following the one you
quoted.  

-Andy  

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGoneaiwspamBeGonespamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== (but open to offers)
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation


2005\02\19@113739 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> OK, I'll see whether I can get through the officials at
> usb.org and get a vendor ID.

I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right to use my
VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for

$24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html
$108 for 100 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-100.html

Will this make me big money or have I just thrown $1500 out of the
window? My wife has her doubts :(

As always, only time will tell.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\19@115507 by Ake Hedman

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face
This is the best initiative for a long time.  Bravo!!!

/Ake

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\02\19@120812 by D. Jay Newman

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> > OK, I'll see whether I can get through the officials at
> > usb.org and get a vendor ID.
>
> I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right to use my
> VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for
>
> $24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html
> $108 for 100 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-100.html

How do we pay for this? I'm thinking of getting a block of 10.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Polititions and civilations come and
TakeThisOuTjayEraseMEspamspam_OUTsprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\02\19@120940 by D. Jay Newman

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face
> I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right to use my
> VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for

Never mind my last note. My brain is out on vacation.

> $24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html
> $108 for 100 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-100.html
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Polititions and civilations come and
RemoveMEjayspamTakeThisOuTsprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\02\19@121223 by Bob Blick

face picon face
On 19 Feb 2005 at 17:37, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> $24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html

Actually works out to US$32 when converted from Euro.

But still it is a great idea.

The USB association won't revoke them later when they discover what
you've done, will they?

Best regards,

Bob

2005\02\19@123447 by Jason Harper

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right to use my
> VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, and I would very much like
to buy a small block for myself, but...  does USB.org actually approve
of this?  My understanding is that they didn't allow transfer of IDs.
       Jason Harper

2005\02\19@130914 by John Hansen

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:

>But still it is a great idea.
>
>The USB association won't revoke them later when they discover what
>you've done, will they?
>  
>
I don't think so... FTDI is giving away PID's on their VID for free.  A
couple of years ago I got a block of 8 and haven't had any trouble with
them.  The odd thing was that I didn't even have to demonstrate that I
was using FTDI chips in a product (though I am).

John Hansen
Coastal ChipWorks




2005\02\19@135218 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right
> to use my
> > VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for
>
> I appreciate what you're trying to do here, and I would very much like
> to buy a small block for myself, but...  does USB.org actually approve
> of this?  My understanding is that they didn't allow transfer of IDs.

I don't know, I did not ask them. I did not sign anything that forbids
me to transfer my VID, much less a range of VIDs. I just apllied for a
VID and got one. Honestly, I can't image they care much. We are very
small fish for an organisation that size.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\19@135706 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > $24  for  10 PIDs
> Actually works out to US$32 when converted from Euro.

Mentioning a price on a world-wide forum is difficult :(

$24 when payed by PayPal, when no VAT applies. $29 when VAT applies
(within the EC). E 20 / E 24 without/with VAT, when payed by bank
transfer. There are some other nuances. But I don't think it's US$32.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\19@141732 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 09:18 -0800, Bob Blick wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2005 at 17:37, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > $24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html
>
> Actually works out to US$32 when converted from Euro.

Depends on where you are. If you select "outside of Europe" and "USD"
you get a total of $23.97, so it's still not $24USD, it's even cheaper!!
I'm REALLY trying to come up with a reason to buy some, can't think of
any yet unfortunately. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\02\19@142523 by Robert Rolf

picon face
While I have no use (YET) for PIDs I do commend Wouter for
making the investment to help us 'follow the rules' for USB
use.

May I suggest that you get your PIDs NOW since it will
save you a huge cost later, when you eventually need one,
and will make Wouter's wife a bit happier <G>.

Given the global reach of this list, and the large numbers
of people wanting to experiment with USB, I don't expect
Wouters PID offer to last too long.

R

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\02\19@152954 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Depends on where you are. If you select "outside of Europe" and "USD"
> you get a total of $23.97, so it's still not $24USD, it's
> even cheaper!!
> I'm REALLY trying to come up with a reason to buy some, can't think of
> any yet unfortunately.

I also sell the 18F4550.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2005\02\19@153340 by Stef Mientki

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face
hi Wouter,

good iniative !

AFAIK the PID must be programmed as a hex number,
selling a multiply of 10,
doesn't it give  a huge administration,
both for you and the customer,
and also a low level source of errors ??

Stef Mientki



Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\02\19@165233 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> AFAIK the PID must be programmed as a hex number,
> selling a multiply of 10,
> doesn't it give  a huge administration,
> both for you and the customer,
> and also a low level source of errors ??

You use a PID to identify a product, not an individual item. In most
cases the PID of the USB device will be fixed in the firmware, and also
in the corresponding PC drivers. So not much administration there.

IIRC each USB item can also have a serial number, which is used to
identify the individual item. If it has a serial number it will remain
the same 'thing' (from instance COM17:) to the PC independent of the USB
port it is plugged into. If it has none its identity is the port. But
maybe an USB-expert can correct (or confirm) this. Unfortunately buying
a VID does not make me an instant USB-expert :(

As for the administrative effort on my side: I do like Python, even
though it is just an interpreter!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\19@171446 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote :

{Quote hidden}

I read Stef's post as saying "10 is not a power of 2".
And that  that might make a "series" of 10 numbers easier to
get wrong when programming them in hex.
But maybe I misunderstod Stef's remark...

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\19@174553 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Maybe the 10 PIDs we're buying is really 0x10?

Harold

By the way, I'm almost finished with a product built around the Silicon
Labs USB UART. They gave me a PID.


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\02\19@185718 by Stef Mientki

flavicon
face


Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No, you're right, that's what I meant.
But as Wouter said, it's fixed, so you don't have to type it every time.
If you use the FTDI chips, it's even impossible to tyep it directly,
you'll always have to load a file with default settings, before
programming the eeprom.

And for Harold,
I like Pascal more :  $10  ;-)

Stef

>  
>

2005\02\19@193241 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:25:27 -0700, you wrote:

>While I have no use (YET) for PIDs I do commend Wouter for
>making the investment to help us 'follow the rules' for USB
>use.
>
>May I suggest that you get your PIDs NOW since it will
>save you a huge cost later, when you eventually need one,
>and will make Wouter's wife a bit happier <G>.
>
>Given the global reach of this list, and the large numbers
>of people wanting to experiment with USB, I don't expect
>Wouters PID offer to last too long.

I'm sure if he shifts all 65,536 of them  he won't hesitate to buy another VID... do the maths...!

{Quote hidden}

2005\02\19@193437 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:34:39 +0100, you wrote:

>hi Wouter,
>
>good iniative !
>
>AFAIK the PID must be programmed as a hex number,
>selling a multiply of 10,
>doesn't it give  a huge administration,
>both for you and the customer,
>and also a low level source of errors ??

why ?
0000..0009
000a..0013
etc.

..although quantities of 8 or 16 and 128 would probably have been more logical....!


2005\02\19@194428 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face

>>I got myself a Vendor ID (VID: 0x16C0). I'll sell the right to use my
>>VID with a block of Product IDs (PIDs) for
>>
>>$24  for  10 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html
>>$108 for 100 PIDs http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-100.html
>>

Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...






2005\02\20@080051 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I'm sure if he shifts all 65,536 of them  he won't hesitate
> to buy another VID... do the maths...!

:)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\20@080051 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...

What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get stock first, I
can suplly JIT :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\20@082015 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote :

> > Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...
>
> What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get
> stock first,...

Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
(selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\20@091745 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:20:14 +0100 (MET), you wrote:

>Wouter van Ooijen wrote :
>
>> > Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...
>>
>> What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get
>> stock first,...
>
>Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
>(selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...
>
You would be selling the right to use a part of an allocation you have paid for.
Can't see any problem with that.


2005\02\20@094117 by Wouter van Ooijen
face picon face
> > What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get
> > stock first,...
>
> Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
> (selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...

Drat. Maybe I should also offer call-options?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\20@094500 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Mike Harrison wrote :

> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:20:14 +0100 (MET), you wrote:
>
> >Wouter van Ooijen wrote :
> >
> >> > Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...
> >>
> >> What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get
> >> stock first,...
> >
> >Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
> >(selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...
> >
> You would be selling the right to use a part of an allocation
> you have paid for.  Can't see any problem with that.

For *Wouter* yes, but that wasn't the issue here.
Wouter talked about someone *else* selling PID series
and getting them from him *after* they've been sold...

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\20@094643 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
> >(selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...
> >
> You would be selling the right to use a part of an allocation
> you have paid for.
> Can't see any problem with that.

The remark referred to my suggestion that someone might try to sell a
range on eBay *before* he has actually bought it from me. That might be
against the (eBay) rules.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\20@101628 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:46:45 +0100, you wrote:

>> >Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
>> >(selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...
>> >
>> You would be selling the right to use a part of an allocation
>> you have paid for.
>> Can't see any problem with that.
>
>The remark referred to my suggestion that someone might try to sell a
>range on eBay *before* he has actually bought it from me. That might be
>against the (eBay) rules.

In my original suggestion, I meant _Wouter_ should try listing some, just to see what happens....


2005\02\20@163403 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I think that they would shoot themselves in the foot if they would
'revoke' assiged VIDs while devices are out using it. However, I can see
the USB 'police' coming from an unexpected corner: remember 'signed'
device drivers ? USB VIDs may be marked rogue at some time in the future
by exclusionist OS and application vendors.

Peter

2005\02\20@163418 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> Wouter van Ooijen wrote :
>
>>> Would be interesting to try listing a block on ebay...
>>
>> What keeps you from trying it? You don't even need to get
>> stock first,...
>
> Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
> (selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...

Someone auctioned 'absolutely nothing' on Ebay. He got 1 bidder.

Peter

2005\02\21@005717 by WH Tan

flavicon
face
Hello Wouter,
May I know the prices quoted are for how long period?

As my understanding, you'll have to pay again for the same VID after a year
or two, depending on the package that you have purchased. For $1500, I
thought it's logo licensee, and you have to pay again after 2 years.

Best regards,
WH Tan

{Original Message removed}

2005\02\21@020125 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> May I know the prices quoted are for how long period?

Indefinite.

> As my understanding, you'll have to pay again for the same
> VID after a year
> or two, depending on the package that you have purchased. For $1500, I
> thought it's logo licensee, and you have to pay again after 2 years.

Those are membership fees. What I purchased was just a VID. This is not
adverstised very clearly on the usb.org website, so U specifically asked
whether this fee was annual or bi-annual, and they answered that it was
one-time.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\21@020126 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> USB VIDs may be marked rogue at some time in
> the future
> by exclusionist OS and application vendors.

Seeing how many drivers are unsigned right now that would definitely be
foot-shooting from the side of the OS vendor!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\21@043021 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Most auction sites (I think eBay also) don't allow that
> (selling what you don't already own/have in stock)...

However they do allow selling a "right to buy" certificate.

2005\02\22@025859 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> USB VIDs may be marked rogue at some time in the future by
>> exclusionist OS and application vendors.
>
> Seeing how many drivers are unsigned right now that would definitely be
> foot-shooting from the side of the OS vendor!

Yes, and the pointy headed people with visions who lead them already
have a track record doing just that in more than one way imho.

Peter

2005\02\22@105040 by alan smith

picon face
Guess i haven't been following this thread.....whats the reason for buying VIDs? ie...when do you need to have them?



__________________________________________________
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2005\02\22@125518 by Tim_webb

flavicon
face
Excuse me for asking a stupid question, I too have not been following this thread..

Question:  What are VIDs?  Besides possibly an abbreviation for some component that I am not able to think of?

{Original Message removed}

2005\02\22@131201 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> Excuse me for asking a stupid question, I too have not been following this thread..
>
> Question:  What are VIDs?  Besides possibly an abbreviation for some component that I am not able to think of?

I believe: Vender ID.
PID = Product ID.

I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Polititions and civilations come and
jayEraseMEspam.....sprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\02\22@135009 by Tim_webb

flavicon
face
I new it was a stupid question, I was hoping it was an acronym for some new technology.
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

{Original Message removed}

2005\02\22@154836 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 10:55 -0700, EraseMEtim_webbspamagilent.com wrote:
> Excuse me for asking a stupid question, I too have not been following this thread..
>
> Question:  What are VIDs?  Besides possibly an abbreviation for some component that I am not able to think of?

Well, VID stands for "vendor ID".

As to what it's used for: it's part of plug and play. When you plug a
USB device in the first thing the USB host does is ask the device for
it's VID and PID, this combination of numbers is compared to the USB
hosts database of devices.

If it finds a match it loads that driver and the device is ready to use.

If it doesn't find a match you get the "find a driver" dialog
appropriate to your OS.

Having a VID/PID combination for your product guarantees that your
product won't "look" like anybody else's product.

FWIW this isn't a new concept, many other PC technologies use a similar
type of idea, PCI is probably the biggest. The mechanism is completely
different, but the idea is the same. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\02\22@155951 by David Duffy

flavicon
face
Herbert Graf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Speaking of VID's and PID's, if you're using the FTDI chips you
can apply to them for a block of 8 PID's if you use their VID.
This seems the ideal way for people using the FTDI chips to get
their own VID/PID combination for free.
David...

2005\02\23@021424 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Guess i haven't been following this thread.....whats the
> reason for buying VIDs? ie...when do you need to have them?

I have added some text to http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/USB-PID-10.html:

When you want your USB product to cooperate with (potentially all) other
USB products, you need a unique PID/VID combination for your product.
Note: not one for each individual item you sell, just one for the
product. This PID/VID is used by the PC to match your USB device to the
corresponding PC software.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\24@100637 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:00:54 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > I'm sure if he shifts all 65,536 of them  he won't hesitate
> > to buy another VID... do the maths...!
>
> :)

Actually, you can't shift *all* of them - by selling blocks of 10 and 100, you must have 6 left over!  Mind
you, with at least $69,000 profit, I suppose a little waste isn't a problem... :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\02\24@110504 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Hi.
Now, if we temporarily leave out the question about how
much money Wouter will make on this deal, I have a slightly
more technical question... :-)

I understand that the VID/PID can/will be used to
automaticly load the "right" driver for a particular product.

Now, what if a product uses the standard "HMI/HID/whatever"
driver ? What should the VID/PID be in that case ? Can one still
use a unique VID/PID so one know that the "right"
product is connected ? Can multiple products using this
standard driver be connected at the same time ?

As I understand it, if you only need simple "serial-like"
communication, you can just as well use this (simpler ?)
driver, or ?

Jan-Erik.
PS.
A pointer to a "USB-primer" would also be fine,
obviously... :-)



2005\02\24@110604 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Actually, you can't shift *all* of them - by selling blocks
> of 10 and 100, you must have 6 left over!

Blimey, don't tell my wife!

>  Mind
> you, with at least $69,000 profit, I suppose a little waste
> isn't a problem... :-)

So far: one block of 10 sold.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\24@114155 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Actually, you can't shift *all* of them - by selling
>blocks of 10 and 100, you must have 6 left over!

Are these not the ones he uses himself ?? :))))

2005\02\25@165707 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Jan-Erik Soderholm <RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu> wrote:

> I understand that the VID/PID can/will be used to automaticly load
> the "right" driver for a particular product.
>
> Now, what if a product uses the standard "HMI/HID/whatever" driver?

   Jan-Erik:

   A USB device identifies itself with its VID/PID, as you know,
   but it ALSO identifies itself as belonging to a "Class".  If the
   Class is one for which the host has a built-in driver (HID, Mass
   Storage, etc.), then the host will load that Class Driver
   regardless of the VID/PID.

   That's why USB flash drives, mice, and keyboards just work --
   with no need to install a driver -- when you plug them into a
   modern PC: flash drives identify themselves as Mass Storage Class
   devices, and mice and keyboards identify themselves as HID (Human
   Interface Device) Class devices.

   If your device needs a custom driver, you configure it to report
   that it belongs to a "user-defined" class.

> What should the VID/PID be in that case? Can one still use a
> unique VID/PID so one know that the "right" product is connected?

   Yes, you must use a unique VID/PID even if your device uses a
   Class driver.

> Can multiple products using this standard driver be connected at
> the same time?

   Yes.  Mice and keyboards, for instance, both use the HID driver.

> As I understand it, if you only need simple "serial-like"
> communication, you can just as well use this (simpler ?) driver,
> or ?

   The HID driver is often used, especially with low-speed USB
   devices, for low-throughput generic data transfers.  Jan Axelson
   has written a book that describes the method in great detail;
   information on her book (and lots of other USB info, too) is on
   her web site at http://www.lvr.com .

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- RemoveMEaiwTakeThisOuTspamspamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== (but open to offers)
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

2005\02\26@073548 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Perfect info, Andrew !! Many thanks.

What I'm looking at, is some kind of "minimum effort" to
get one of the new 18F/USD parts working with some
simple Windows app (I have Visual Basic-6 ans W-2K and
W-XP available). Just as simple test/proof-of-concept case.

Since I posted my question I have found Jan Axelson
pages, looks realy great. B.t.w, I was surpriced to see you
mention Jan as "she", Jan is mail Swedish name (just as the
first half of my own name) and Axelson is a common
Swedish family name ("the son of Axel")...

Regards,
Jan-Erik.


> {Original Message removed}

2005\02\26@102300 by Peter Johansson

flavicon
face
Jan-Erik Soderholm writes:


> Since I posted my question I have found Jan Axelson
> pages, looks realy great. B.t.w, I was surpriced to see you
> mention Jan as "she", Jan is mail Swedish name (just as the
> first half of my own name) and Axelson is a common
> Swedish family name ("the son of Axel")...

Being Swedish myself, I always assumed the same.  The following
article seems to indicate otherwise:

http://www.embeddedsys.com/subpages/resources/images/documents/microsys_art_RS485.pdf

(Of course, it is always possible than an editor made the same mistake...)

> What I'm looking at, is some kind of "minimum effort" to
> get one of the new 18F/USD parts working with some
> simple Windows app (I have Visual Basic-6 ans W-2K and
> W-XP available). Just as simple test/proof-of-concept case.

I'm looking for the same myself...

-p.

2005\02\26@193211 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Peter Johansson wrote:
> Being Swedish myself, I always assumed the same.  The following
> article seems to indicate otherwise:

In other parts of the world, like here in the US, "Jan" is short for Janet.
The two are pronounced quite differently, so the confusion is only when
written.  The Scandinavian Jan is pronounced as if it were spelled "Yahn" in
english, whereas "Jan" short for Janet has a hard J, like "January".

In this case, it's the english Jan.  Her full name is Janet Louise Axelson,
which is definitely a woman's name.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\02\27@085943 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Olin wrote :

> In this case, it's the english Jan.  Her full name is Janet
> Louise Axelson, which is definitely a woman's name.

OK. I get it now... :-)

Anyway, I checked the e-Book version of Jan's "USB Complete"
on Amazon. First on the US site. The price was 26.37 USD, but
they could not "deliver an e-Book to Europe" (even if it's
actualy me that does the download :-) ). They refered me to the
UK site. The same e-Book there costed 25.08 UKP (!), aprox
48.13 USD.

Now, what makes a purchase of the "right to download" having
nearly twice the price from the UK than from the US ???
The only thing they "deliver" is an URL to the download in
a mail...

With that said, does anyone on the piclist have any thoughts
about that book ?

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\27@131709 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
USB Complete is an excellent all-around tutorial on the USB interface,
specifically aimed at those of us interfacing microcontrollers. The
book covers almost everything you need (and would want to know) about
USB without getting involved in unnecessary details unless they are
required. Once you read the book you'll likely understand the complete
USB process from plug-in and discovery to working device.
I can recommend all of Jan Axelson's "Complete" book series. I have all of them and I consider them all money well spent. I still reference them occasionally -- in fact I just broke out the (much older) "Parallel Port Complete" a few days ago when a colleague and I wanted to use the PC parallel port as an SPI simulator for a test set.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:59:42 +0100 (MET), Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> With that said, does anyone on the piclist have any thoughts
> about that book ?

2005\02\28@033029 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Andrew Warren wrote :

>
>     The HID driver is often used, especially with low-speed USB
>     devices, for low-throughput generic data transfers.  Jan Axelson
>     has written a book that describes the method in great detail;
>     information on her book (and lots of other USB info, too) is on
>     her web site at http://www.lvr.com .
>
>     -Andy

Hi.
Found AN956 at Microchip. That app note describes the use of
the CDC class ("Communication Device Class") that is used to
run emulated COM ports. An easy way to move an COM/USART
based application to USB. No (or minor) changes to the PC
app (still uses the COM port API's in Windows) and Microchip
provides "CDC firmware" that hides the USB details from the
PIC application.

Maybe worth a look... :-)

There is a link to the app note from the device page for any
of the new 18F USB PIC's.

Regards,
Jan-Erik.



2005\02\28@040358 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
Someone mentioned to me in a Chinese forum that the Microchip
implementation is really not optimal and the PIC18FUSB MCUs
can be much faster using customized firmware and PC host software.

I know little about USB and PC host programming so I am not
so sure whether this is true or not. But I always have the
idea of replacing the PicKit 1 16C745 with the new 18F2550
and extend its functionality. It is possible to use CDC
and even use olin's protocol and host software. :)

Xiaofan

> {Original Message removed}

2005\02\28@040844 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I think that's the way some people are using FTDI chips. If you leave
out the EEROM,
Windows gets no specific information... But the FTDI driver (NON-PnP
versions, mind you...)
keeps chuggin' along and works fine anyway...

--Bob

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2005\02\28@054921 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Feb 28, 2005, at 12:59 AM, Chen Xiao Fan wrote:

> Someone mentioned to me in a Chinese forum that the Microchip
> implementation is really not optimal and the PIC18FUSB MCUs
> can be much faster using customized firmware and PC host software.
>
I would generally not expect an "applications note" style design
to be of 'production quality.'  They're supposed to be educational,
not optimal...

> I always have the idea of replacing the PicKit 1 16C745 with
> the new 18F2550 and extend its functionality.
>
Me too.  If only because it would give me a field-upgradable part.
(Hmm.  Maybe even dynamically bootloaded via the USB port.)

BillW

2005\02\28@063813 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Hi.
Another thing...

The examples in app note AN956 uses C all over.
So far I have done all my PIC programming with ASM.
Am I to understand that USB programming is more easily
done with C ? And would it be right to expect that the USB
firmware API's that Microchip makes available could be called
from ASM as well as from C ? Or is it that "it depends", as usualy ?

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\28@112429 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote :

> On Feb 28, 2005, at 12:59 AM, Chen Xiao Fan wrote:
>
> > Someone mentioned to me in a Chinese forum that the Microchip
> > implementation is really not optimal and the PIC18FUSB MCUs
> > can be much faster using customized firmware and PC host software.
> >
> I would generally not expect an "applications note" style design
> to be of 'production quality.'  They're supposed to be educational,
> not optimal...

The app note actualy says "max throughput aprox 80 Kb/s", which
might not be what the USB bus is capable of. *BUT*, since this
app note (and the "RS-232 Emulation Firmware") are ment to
be a replacement for a former serial line solution, I don't
se that as a major problem with *this* app note (and related
firmware). And lower speed does not automaticly meen lower quality.

Now, with that said, I have just found what I think is the
software (firmware) that the app note talks about. Download
is about to begin (only dial-up available here :-) )...

Regards,
Jan-Erik.



2005\02\28@170211 by Robin Abbott

flavicon
face
I have just received my USB PIC-DEM from Microchip, they are offering
one free PID for use with the Microchip VID and supply an application
form on the CD.

The directory is : \Documents\Vendor ID Sublicensing Form\Application
for USB Vendor ID Sublicense

Robin Abbott

Forest Electronic Developments

01590 681511
+44 1590 681511 (phone/fax)

PIC and AVR C Compiler environments and RAD (WIZ-C)
See our web pages : http://www.fored.co.uk



{Original Message removed}

2005\02\28@213932 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
Oh yes it is perfectly okay for replacing a serial solution.
It would be greatly appreciated that you or someone could
look into the code and share your thoughts. I would like
to learn a bit about USB (both firmware and host software).
Thanks in advance.

Xiaofan

> {Original Message removed}


'[PIC:] USB VID/PID thoughts'
2005\03\11@082543 by Jan-Erik Soderholm
face picon face
Got my copy of Jan Axelson's USB Complete today !
Got it from the US with the help from a piclister, thanks !

After a quick browse, I think it looks just right.
Perfect weekend reading... :-)

Jan-Erik.



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