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PICList Thread
'[PIC:] Programming Interface'
2004\01\30@065956 by Andre Miller

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Hi,


I forgot to add that the 16F877 has the ability to program itself. Once you
have a cheap programmer built, you can program it with a loader, and that
loader can then be used to program the chip via a normal serial interface.


-------------

Hi,

I'm also quite new to this group, but have managed to build a simple
interface that uses the serial port and supply the +13V for non-LVP without
an external supply.

The hardware I used was the JDM programmer:
http://www.jdm.homepage.dk/newpic.htm

There are also variatons on this design, the one I built was:
http://www.olimex.com/dev/pic-pg2b.html

Software, I first used PonyProg, but had lots of problems, finally figured
out (with the help of others here), that it didn't program code bigger than
about 1024. I then switched to ICProg, which worked perfectly (after
fiddling with it to get it working on Windows XP).

ICProg:
http://www.ic-prog.com/

PonyProg:
http://www.lancos.com/prog.html

Having said all that, the JDM programmer is very basic, getting the required
+5V and +13V from the serial port, using the negative line as ground. If
you're going to do in-circuit programming with another powersource that’s
grounded, it won't work.

I mainly built JDM to get a cheap (and easy to build) programmer to build
the Wisp628 programmer, which uses a PIC and I needed to get the firmware on
that pic. This programmer is much more versatile. Its designed by Wouter van
Ooijen who also frequents this list and can be found at:

http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/

You can also order the kit or programmed PIC from him.

_____  
André Miller        



{Original Message removed}

2004\01\30@075302 by John J. McDonough

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Somehow or another Andre apparently made a reply that I didn't see, although
I did see his reply to his own reply. Unfortunately I don't know what he
said.

Anyway .. a couple of comments.  An 877A is not an 877.  There is lots of
free software to program the 877, not so the 877A.  As best I can tell,
software that does program the 877A requires a specific, usually expensive,
programmer.

I would suggest that you consider whether 5 volt programming is really a
requirement.  Virtually any of the popular designs for cheap programmers
will work with the 877 in HVP mode, although the ones that work without
hassle generally require a 13.8 volt supply rather than trying to get the
high voltage from your serial port.

Now maybe you really need an A, and maybe you really need LVP, and if this
is the case, I would prepare for spending a few dollars.  But if you can
come up with 13.8 volts (nothing wrong with batteries), you really don't
need low voltage programming, and you can live without the A, then there are
dozens of very cheap alternatives and you will be astonished at how simple
it is.  In fact, even the most lame junkbox is likely to contain all you
need.

Any of the common F84 designs can be pressed into service by simply
replacing the 18 pin socket with a 40 pin.  There are only 5 pins connected,
and you just match up pin names.  I happen to prefer the Covington design,
but any of the Tate designs is just fine, too.  There must be a dozen
designs you can build for under 10 euro.  Tate's FPP program will work with
most of them, and is very convenient to use.  Depending on what you are
doing, you may want to read Microchip's ICSP guide and build up a circuit to
allow programming in your target circuit.  Not having to yank the part out
of the target to put it in the programmer during debugging is a huge
convenience, and it ain't rocket science.

Others will say you are limiting yourself by taking this approach, and that
is true.  But it is cheap, and amazingly simple.

--McD

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\30@075923 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> There is lots of
> free software to program the 877, not so the 877A.

Not that much, but IIRC ic-prog does the 877A. The hardware is the same
(apart from LVP pull-down, Vpp-or-Vcc first issues, and some variation
in Vpp voltage it is the same for all flash PICs), it is just the PC
software that must be adapted to the specific PIC.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\01\30@084110 by Vidal

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From: "Andre Miller" <.....andre.millerKILLspamspam@spam@BLUERIVER.CO.ZA>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC:] Programming Interface

> I [..] have managed to build a simple
> interface that uses the serial port and supply the +13V for non-LVP without
> an external supply.

Thank you for the advice, I will look into it.

Is it neccessary to have the +13 V? As far as I can see from
the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.

Or have I misunderstood that?

Regards

Vidal

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2004\01\30@085354 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 01:27:51PM +0100, Vidal wrote:
> From: "Andre Miller" <EraseMEandre.millerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTBLUERIVER.CO.ZA>
> To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [PIC:] Programming Interface
>
> > I [..] have managed to build a simple
> > interface that uses the serial port and supply the +13V for non-LVP without
> > an external supply.
>
> Thank you for the advice, I will look into it.
>
> Is it neccessary to have the +13 V?

Not exactly. There are two different programming modes: Low Voltage Programming
(LVP) and High Voltage Programming (HVP). LVP is 5V only, however you lose the
use of an I/O pin (RB3/LVP). With HVP you retain use of all of the hardware.

> As far as I can see from
> the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.

That's LVP. It works fine and I've built a 16F programming system around it:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys

>
> Or have I misunderstood that?

I think you just didn't have the whole picture.

BAJ

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2004\01\30@090222 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Is it neccessary to have the +13 V? As far as I can see from
> the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.

That is true, but you sacrifice one pin for that feature. Read
http://www.voti.nl/swp, there is an explanation of LVP versus HVP. NB
The Wisp628 programmer generates the 13V internally, from the 5V you
supply.

Wouter van Ooijen

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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:17:55 +1300, Jinx wrote:
>
> I thought that too, wouldn't trust anything made into a BBQ that
> wasn't
> supposed to be a BBQ. And they probably used building off-cuts with
> H4 CCA preservative. Gives the meat that nice "tangy" flavour ;-)

And toss in a few of your old retired auto tires, shredded, for that
nice "smoky" taste... ;-)

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2004\01\30@090847 by Roberts II, Charles K.

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-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Vidal
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:25 AM
To: .....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Programming interface

Hi.

I am all new to this group (and  new to PIC, too) so I don't quiet
know if this the right place to ask.

My question is: The 16F877(A) can be programmed with 5 V
as far as I can see. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a (cheap) DIY programming device, preferably for the serial
port? And perhaps also software to do it with.

I have seen readymade interfaces that cost more than 100$,
and it seems pretty expensive.

Regards

Vidal


Reposted with proper tag

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2004\01\30@090850 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Vidal" <TakeThisOuTvidalspamspamWEBSPEED.DK>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] Programming Interface


> Is it neccessary to have the +13 V? As far as I can see from
> the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.

All of the PICs can be programmed with a high voltage on !MCLR.  Some can be
programmed with 5 volts only, but this does require an additional pin, so it
further complicates in-circuit programming.  I see Byron explained this as I
was writing.  One place I differ with him, you don't actually lose RB3, but
you need to be pretty careful about how you use it, so giving it up may be
the simpler path.

The Microchip documentation seems to indicate that "high" voltage is around
8.4, but many of the designs go to great pains to make sure it is above 12
volts.  Why they do this I don't know, but I suspect that if 12 volts worked
reliably they wouldn't jump through hoops to be sure they were above 12.  I
have tried 11 and had no problem, but I made no attempt to explore just how
reliable this is across different chips etc.  Since common "12 volt"
supplies deliver 13.8 to match "12 volt" car batteries, this isn't generally
a big issue.  Put a diode in the ground pin of a 78L12 and you have a little
over 12 volts, and you don't need to fret about whether 11.9 is enough.  I
know of nobody who has found that 12.1 isn't enough.  Keep in mind, though,
that if your programmer has a 12 volt regulator, you need to be better than
a volt above 12 in order for it to work.  Put a diode in the ground, and now
you are above 13.7, even with a low dropout regulator.

--McD

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2004\01\30@091711 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 07:51:46AM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> Somehow or another Andre apparently made a reply that I didn't see, although
> I did see his reply to his own reply. Unfortunately I don't know what he
> said.
>
> Anyway .. a couple of comments.  An 877A is not an 877.  There is lots of
> free software to program the 877, not so the 877A.  As best I can tell,
> software that does program the 877A requires a specific, usually expensive,
> programmer.

Not really. There are free programming systems for tait style programmers.
ic-prog and odyssey come to mind immediately. There are a couple of minor
differences what are just enough to screw up the process:

1) In order to speed programming, all of the newer PICs incorporate data
buffers and program in blocks of 4 or 8 words. The interesting thing is that
while there's virtually no change for self programming, other than making sure
that you load an entire block before writing, that with the external programmer
you must do 4 or 8 load/increment address commands before issuing a
a programming command. But the advantages are so obvious that it's worth it.

I'm decided to bite the bullet and spend a half day getting picprg up to speed
on the newer parts. Since my student has worked out a Windows port, putting the
two together should result in a up to date programming system that's multi
platform, which only Wouter can also boast.

2) The second which is slightly more problematic is the fact that the cost of
the faster programming speed is that most of the newer pics begin programming
commands are self timed. So the programming software must issue a end
programming command.

But it's worth it. With the 16F87XA at 5V the programming speed is up to 32
times faster than the 16F87X parts (8 words @ 1ms in a single write vs. 8
words @ 4ms (max) each) .

>
> I would suggest that you consider whether 5 volt programming is really a
> requirement.  Virtually any of the popular designs for cheap programmers
> will work with the 877 in HVP mode, although the ones that work without
> hassle generally require a 13.8 volt supply rather than trying to get the
> high voltage from your serial port.

It doesn't really matter one way or the other. HVP is almost always better
because you retain use of RB3.

The most productive system I've found so far is installing a bootloader into
the part, then using the bootloader from then on to load programs. Wouter's
Wloader (http://www.voti.nl/wloader) is excellent for the task. And wloader
works through your serial port, only requires a single I/O pin, and you get
to choose the pin instead of it being selected for you. The default is RE2
which is way out the way of most I/O activity.

{Quote hidden}

Agreed on all of this. And there are free programming software (ic-prog, odyssey

Agreed on all of this. And there are free programming software (ic-prog,
odyssey. and picprg which I plan to update soon) that will program the newer
parts.

BAJ

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2004\01\30@091920 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> The Microchip documentation seems to indicate that "high"
> voltage is around 8.4

I guess you checked only the ICSP documents for recent PICs. Some older
ones required 13V.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\01\30@101319 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 09:07:58AM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vidal" <EraseMEvidalspam@spam@WEBSPEED.DK>
> Subject: Re: [PIC:] Programming Interface
>
>
> > Is it neccessary to have the +13 V? As far as I can see from
> > the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.
>
> All of the PICs can be programmed with a high voltage on !MCLR.  Some can be
> programmed with 5 volts only, but this does require an additional pin, so it
> further complicates in-circuit programming.  I see Byron explained this as I
> was writing.  One place I differ with him, you don't actually lose RB3, but
> you need to be pretty careful about how you use it, so giving it up may be
> the simpler path.

Please clarify the above statement. I've always operated user the statement
in the 16F87X datasheet in Section 12.18:

"In this mode the RB3/LVP pin is dedicated to the programming function and
ceases to be a general purpose I/O pin."

It doesn't get more black and white than that.

>
> The Microchip documentation seems to indicate that "high" voltage is around
> 8.4, but many of the designs go to great pains to make sure it is above 12
> volts.

Nost of the specs say Vdd+3.4 volts.

>  Why they do this I don't know, but I suspect that if 12 volts worked
> reliably they wouldn't jump through hoops to be sure they were above 12.  I
> have tried 11 and had no problem, but I made no attempt to explore just how
> reliable this is across different chips etc.  Since common "12 volt"
> supplies deliver 13.8 to match "12 volt" car batteries, this isn't generally
> a big issue.  Put a diode in the ground pin of a 78L12 and you have a little
> over 12 volts, and you don't need to fret about whether 11.9 is enough.

Absolutely. In fact if you're pulling power from a PC, the 12V line is fine
for the task. By there's no external 12V interface.

BAJ

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2004\01\30@114007 by Vidal

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Byron A Jeff" <spamBeGonebyronEraseMEspamCC.GATECH.EDU>


{Quote hidden}

Will this work with the 16F877A, too.

> > Or have I misunderstood that?

> I think you just didn't have the whole picture.

Thank you for clarifying.

Regards

Vidal

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From:         "Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC)"              <jan-erik.xa.soderholmspam_OUTspamERICSSON.COM>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] duplicate device IDs in the 18F series
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Rob Hamerling wrote :

> So for a PIC programmer it may not be a problem if a 16F767 and 16F777
> would use the same ID. The reason that I mentioned the 28-pins DIP
> package was to say that I'm sure it is _not_ a 16F777 (I didn't
> mention it, but it has also 16F767 printed on the body!).


You say that the fact that the 16F767 and the 777 are sharing the
same ID isn't a (major) problem (if they, from the programmers point
of view, are the "same"). Fine.

Then you say that the fact that the 767 reads an ID that is
documented to be a 777 is an error, right ?

Isn't that a contradiction in a way ?
If they *do* share ID, how could you use the ID to separate them ?

Just trying to learn here... :-)

Jan-Erik.

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..
.

2004\01\30@115040 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 04:23:57PM +0100, Vidal wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Byron A Jeff" <byronspamBeGonespam.....CC.GATECH.EDU>
>
>
> > > Is it neccessary to have the +13 V?
>
> > Not exactly. There are two different programming modes: Low Voltage Programming
> > (LVP) and High Voltage Programming (HVP). LVP is 5V only, however you lose the
> > use of an I/O pin (RB3/LVP). With HVP you retain use of all of the hardware.
>
> > > As far as I can see from
> > > the PIC16F87XA manual only 5 V is needed for programming.
>
> > That's LVP. It works fine and I've built a 16F programming system around it:
>
> > http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys
>
> Will this work with the 16F877A, too.

Hardware: yes. Software: not yet with the software I have listed. If you need
it today you'd need to use ic-prog or odyssey (and then probably only in HVP
mode). If you can wait a week or two I plan to update for the newer PICs
as my conversation with Wouter on Wloader for the 16F87XA has given me enough
background to understand what needs to be changed in the programming algorithm.

My goal is to have picprg programming all of the modern PICS and to have both
a Linux and Windows port. That should cover most of the bases.

>
> > > Or have I misunderstood that?
>
> > I think you just didn't have the whole picture.
>
> Thank you for clarifying.

No problem.

BAJ

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.

2004\01\30@161603 by Andre Miller

flavicon
face
Hi,

I'm also quite new to this group, but have managed to build a simple
interface that uses the serial port and supply the +13V for non-LVP without
an external supply.

The hardware I used was the JDM programmer:
http://www.jdm.homepage.dk/newpic.htm

There are also variatons on this design, the one I built was:
http://www.olimex.com/dev/pic-pg2b.html

Software, I first used PonyProg, but had lots of problems, finally figured
out (with the help of others here), that it didn't program code bigger than
about 1024. I then switched to ICProg, which worked perfectly (after
fiddling with it to get it working on Windows XP).

ICProg:
http://www.ic-prog.com/

PonyProg:
http://www.lancos.com/prog.html

Having said all that, the JDM programmer is very basic, getting the required
+5V and +13V from the serial port, using the negative line as ground. If
you're going to do in-circuit programming with another powersource that’s
grounded, it won't work.

I mainly built JDM to get a cheap (and easy to build) programmer to build
the Wisp628 programmer, which uses a PIC and I needed to get the firmware on
that pic. This programmer is much more versatile. Its designed by Wouter van
Ooijen who also frequents this list and can be found at:

http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/

You can also order the kit or programmed PIC from him.

_____  
André Miller        



{Original Message removed}

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