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'[PIC:] Poor man's USB'
2004\06\12@162309 by Matthew Brush

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Something occurred to me the other day when looking
into what a pain USB is to implement in/with a PIC.  I
just do electronics stuff for fun, so I'm always
looking for ways to do things free/cheap.

To that end, what about using a hacked up USB Mouse or
Joystick as a way to get data into VB or whatever thru
USB.  I'm not sure about the joysticks, but I don't
imagine it would be very difficult to fake the mouses
encoders with a signal from a pic.  I know for a fact
that it is simple to get mouse coordinates in visual
basic, and I'm sure it's not dificult to do in other
languages.

One could use the mouse buttons and the mouse position
as a way to send data over USB and let the mouse's
controller do all the hard work.   You could easily
trim down a mouse's pcb to fit into a small enclusre
or whatever.

The only major problem I can see is that you would
lose  use of your mouse or possibly may need two
(maybe PS2 for real mouse and USB for faker).

Can anyone else think of another USB device that would
provide an even simpler interface to the computer like
this?  What's everybody think of this idea for people
who don't have money and don't use surface mount (ie.
half-assers)?


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2004\06\12@210346 by Matt Pobursky

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On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:23:31 -0400, Matthew Brush wrote:
> Something occurred to me the other day when looking
> into what a pain USB is to implement in/with a PIC.  I
> just do electronics stuff for fun, so I'm always
> looking for ways to do things free/cheap.

~$5 for an FTDI serial or parallel USB chip and a handful of cheap
passive components will get you a USB interface for your PIC... what's
so painful about that? Then you can do whatever you want on both the
PIC and PC side of things. You can also get pre-made USB modules that
plug into a DIP socket, syou can even transfer them from PIC board to
PIC board or use in a solderless protoboard (Ugh... these things should
be outlawed for most uses, but that's another subject).

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2004\06\12@211423 by Matthew Brush

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> ~$5 for an FTDI serial or parallel USB chip and a
> handful of cheap
> passive components will get you a USB interface for
> your PIC... what's
> so painful about that? Then you can do whatever you
> want on both the
> PIC and PC side of things.

Well, as far as I can tell, that FTDI chip is only
available for surface mount.  Then on top of that, to
order it typically requires a minimum order, and then
shipping costs and duty (I'm in Canada).

Also, from what I was reading, that FTDI chip requires
some type of virtual comm port driver to be installed
whereas a usb mouse already has a driver built-in to
Windows.

> You can also get pre-made
> USB modules that
> plug into a DIP socket, syou can even transfer them
> from PIC board to
> PIC board or use in a solderless protoboard

This sounds interesting, who makes these?  They
probably cost a decent penny, no?

> solderless protoboard (Ugh...
> these things should
> be outlawed for most uses, but that's another
> subject).

Bah, they're fine if you're a broke-ass non-engineer
type.  If I was doing anything for pay, I would agree,
since I'd probably make proper boards.

Thanks for the input though, I would love to find out
more about these USB DIP modules if you get a chance.

Peace


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2004\06\12@212631 by D. Jay Newman

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> Well, as far as I can tell, that FTDI chip is only
> available for surface mount.  Then on top of that, to
> order it typically requires a minimum order, and then
> shipping costs and duty (I'm in Canada).

You can get them from Dontronics (http://www.dontronics.com/) and
they don't have a minimum.

> Also, from what I was reading, that FTDI chip requires
> some type of virtual comm port driver to be installed
> whereas a usb mouse already has a driver built-in to
> Windows.

Yes. But the driver is avalable for both Windows and Linux.

> > You can also get pre-made
> > USB modules that
> > plug into a DIP socket, syou can even transfer them
> > from PIC board to
> > PIC board or use in a solderless protoboard
>
> This sounds interesting, who makes these?  They
> probably cost a decent penny, no?

I got mine from a site off of FTDI's site (http://www.ftdichip.com/).
It cost $25.
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2004\06\12@214537 by Matt Pobursky
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On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:22:14 -0400, D. Jay Newman wrote:
> > Well, as far as I can tell, that FTDI chip is only
> > available for surface mount.  Then on top of that, to
> > order it typically requires a minimum order, and then
> > shipping costs and duty (I'm in Canada).
>
> You can get them from Dontronics (http://www.dontronics.com/) and
> they don't have a minimum.

DLP Design also makes and sells several different models (some with
PICs on-board even!):

http://dlpdesign.com/

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2004\06\13@142744 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > You can also get pre-made
> > USB modules that
> > plug into a DIP socket, syou can even transfer them
> > from PIC board to
> > PIC board or use in a solderless protoboard
>
> This sounds interesting, who makes these?

I make such PCBs/kits:

http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/K-USB-1.html
http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/K-USB-2-232.html

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\13@142752 by Paul Hutchinson

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The PIC16C745 can emulate all the standard USB HID devices directly. The
Microchip evaluation board and applications notes include mouse, keyboard
and game controller implementations. So, you can get free working code and
schematics from the Microchip web site.

Yes, it's a pain to used old fashioned EPROM PIC's but I find it easier than
hacking the hardware of a USB mouse.

Paul

> {Original Message removed}

2004\06\13@164515 by Matthew Brush

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> Yes, it's a pain to used old fashioned EPROM PIC's
> but I find it easier than
> hacking the hardware of a USB mouse.

Not only is it a pain, my programmer only does
Flash-based PICs and I also do not have a UV eraser
thingy.

Anyway, I know there are lots of proper ways to do USB
with a PIC, but I was suggesting a jimmy-rigged method
for those of us who don't want to buy ANYTHING (maybe
I'm the only one?).  The reason I had the idea was
because I have spare USB mouse.

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2004\06\13@170242 by Mike Harrison

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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:23:05 -0400, you wrote:

>> Yes, it's a pain to used old fashioned EPROM PIC's
>> but I find it easier than
>> hacking the hardware of a USB mouse.
>
>Not only is it a pain, my programmer only does
>Flash-based PICs and I also do not have a UV eraser
>thingy.
>
>Anyway, I know there are lots of proper ways to do USB
>with a PIC, but I was suggesting a jimmy-rigged method
>for those of us who don't want to buy ANYTHING (maybe
>I'm the only one?).  The reason I had the idea was
>because I have spare USB mouse.

There are some things you can do on USB without even a PIC....
(warning contains British humour....)

Fourth item down on : http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/makendo.htm

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2004\06\14@100346 by llile

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Get a USB serial port adapter and talk to your project via RS232.  Radio
Shark sells them for $15 with cables and the works.  You need one for any
computer less than two years old anyway, unless you specially ordered
RS232 with it, or put in an add-on serail board.  In a "real" project you
could buy the RS232 chip, but the cable is really really easy.


-- Lawrence Lile
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573-446-5676 fax




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       To:     @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
       cc:
       Subject:        [PIC:] Poor man's USB


Something occurred to me the other day when looking
into what a pain USB is to implement in/with a PIC.  I
just do electronics stuff for fun, so I'm always
looking for ways to do things free/cheap.

To that end, what about using a hacked up USB Mouse or
Joystick as a way to get data into VB or whatever thru
USB.  I'm not sure about the joysticks, but I don't
imagine it would be very difficult to fake the mouses
encoders with a signal from a pic.  I know for a fact
that it is simple to get mouse coordinates in visual
basic, and I'm sure it's not dificult to do in other
languages.

One could use the mouse buttons and the mouse position
as a way to send data over USB and let the mouse's
controller do all the hard work.   You could easily
trim down a mouse's pcb to fit into a small enclusre
or whatever.

The only major problem I can see is that you would
lose  use of your mouse or possibly may need two
(maybe PS2 for real mouse and USB for faker).

Can anyone else think of another USB device that would
provide an even simpler interface to the computer like
this?  What's everybody think of this idea for people
who don't have money and don't use surface mount (ie.
half-assers)?


=====
MJ Brush
LeftClick.ca Internet Media Services
mbrush@[NOSPAM]leftclick.ca

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2004\06\14@135257 by Bob Axtell

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Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> The PIC16C745 can emulate all the standard USB HID devices directly. The
> Microchip evaluation board and applications notes include mouse, keyboard
> and game controller implementations. So, you can get free working code and
> schematics from the Microchip web site.
>
> Yes, it's a pain to used old fashioned EPROM PIC's but I find it easier than
> hacking the hardware of
<snip>

There are several GREAT solutions of a USB client. I want to see
somebody implement a simple USB server (like a Host PC USB port) for the
PIC. Its very, VERY difficult. I had to drop back from USB to MMC, which
at least works in SPI mode.

THAT's the piggyback project I'd like to see available. If anybody knows
of one, please let me know.

--Bob

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2004\06\14@161714 by Matthew Brush

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> Get a USB serial port adapter and talk to your
> project via RS232.  Radio
> Shark sells them for $15 with cables and the works.

$15 is a lot more than free.  I'm aware that you can
BUY all kinds of different things, but the point is to
modify something to work for free.

On top of that I doubt radioshack canada sells those
adapters, they hardly have anything anymore.  Not to
mention the fact that I'm learning to HATE RS232 and
will probably stop using it altogether very soon.

Also, as I said in a previous post, it would be nice
to not have to load any drivers for the device to
work, just install the program and it works.

But anyway, thanks for the re-info, I'll probably end
up getting one of those FTDI chips when I get some
cash.

Thanks, Peace


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2004\06\14@173823 by William Chops Westfield

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On Monday, Jun 14, 2004, at 13:17 US/Pacific, Matthew Brush wrote:

> I'm aware that you can BUY all kinds of different things, but the
> point is to modify something to work for free.

It's an interesting idea, but unfortunately, a mouse port has a bunch
of disadvantages for this sort of application.  It tends to be
unidirectional (as far as I know), and mostly, it's a MOUSE.  The
system software will recognize it as a mouse and data will start moving
the cursor around, making windows respond, and so on.  (most OSes seem
to support an arbitary number of mice simultaneously.)  It's not like
an application can say "I want to trap the keyclick info from "mouse3:"

A com port adaptor has a lot of advantages.  It's bidirectional, and
relatively protocol free.  Just a bare data stream.  You can sort of
expect things like 'copy myfile com5:' and 'copy com5: myfile' to work
just fine, even if there is NOTHING like an actual comport on the other
side USB "thing" pretending to be a com port.  I guess there are
generic "HID" devices that behave similarly; microchips pickit1 being a
nice example with published source code..

I notice that the pic16c745 sells for prices comparable to things like
the FTDI chip.  Open source code for turning a 16c745 into a general
purpose USB IO device would probably be pretty useful, even if it isn't
available as a flash device.

BillW

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2004\06\14@174209 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Matthew Brush wrote :

> > Get a USB serial port adapter and talk to your
> > project via RS232.  Radio
> > Shark sells them for $15 with cables and the works.
>
> $15 is a lot more than free.  I'm aware that you can
> BUY all kinds of different things, but the point is to
> modify something to work for free.

What does your time cost ?

> Not to mention the fact that I'm learning to HATE
> RS232 and will probably stop using it altogether
> very soon.

IMHO, RS232 is mabe the most easy to use interface
around. Any specific trouble with it ?

One thing that definitly speaks in favour of RS232, is
that the interface (USART) is built in in many different
PICs, USB is, well, not...

> Also, as I said in a previous post, it would be nice
> to not have to load any drivers for the device to
> work, just install the program and it works.

And what is the difference ??
Installing a driver is, in most cases, just as any other
install of any other "program".
(The "load" of the driver is done automaticly by Windows
on the next boot, usualy...)

And Windows is full of drivers already, so one more
would probably not do much harm.

I'm not 100% sure how this related to the original
subject, but anyway... :-) :-)

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.

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2004\06\14@175244 by D. Jay Newman

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> IMHO, RS232 is mabe the most easy to use interface
> around. Any specific trouble with it ?
>
> One thing that definitly speaks in favour of RS232, is
> that the interface (USART) is built in in many different
> PICs, USB is, well, not...

Actually that is async serial. Microprocessors don't speak RS-232.

RS-232 is an electrical spec.

On the other hand, I agree with you about the UART being easy to interface
with. I just prefer to do it with RS-485, with is much less susceptable
to outside noise.
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2004\06\14@180454 by Matthew Brush

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> What does your time cost ?

Nothing, I only mess around with electronics in my
spare time.  The concept was just a fun idea since I
like to "PIC apart" various pieces of hardware.

> IMHO, RS232 is mabe the most easy to use interface
> around. Any specific trouble with it ?

I don't like using ASCII codes all the time, but I
guess there's a way to send binary info without
converting to/from ASCII.  Although I must admit,
using RS232 for debugging/output has been such a help
with my learning.

> I'm not 100% sure how this related to the original
> subject, but anyway... :-) :-)

Actually, when I originally posted, I tried my best to
avoid the same old run around where people tell me how
there's so many other ways to do what I suggest
(hacking a mouse for it's USB).  I am/was fully aware
that there's many ways to get USB with a PIC and that
RS-232 is so easy, but I was merely suggesting an
alternative to a UV erasable PIC or using RS232 in
some form or another.

I guess I'm the only poor man in here who likes to
mangle hardware for fun .... hehehe

BTW. I am very excited for the new Flash-based PIC
with hardware USB to come out.

Anyway, Peace



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2004\06\14@181322 by Matthew Brush

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> It's an interesting idea, but unfortunately, a mouse
> port has a bunch
> of disadvantages for this sort of application.  It
> tends to be
> unidirectional (as far as I know), and mostly, it's
> a MOUSE.  The
> system software will recognize it as a mouse and
> data will start moving
> the cursor around, making windows respond, and so
> on.  (most OSes seem
> to support an arbitary number of mice
> simultaneously.)  It's not like
> an application can say "I want to trap the keyclick
> info from "mouse3:"

Thanks, this is the type of reply I was trying to get.

As for the unidirectional thing, the PS2/USB aspect is
bidirectional, but in terms of what I'd be doing,
you're right, the mouse only sends coords to the PC
and not vice versa.

As for the moving of the mouse, I was thinking about
just not using a mouse in the program or something

But you're all right, my idea was stupid, and I just
save up some cash and do things properly.

End of post (can I do that? hehehe)


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2004\06\14@181739 by William Chops Westfield

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On Monday, Jun 14, 2004, at 15:05 US/Pacific, Matthew Brush wrote:

>> IMHO, RS232 is mabe the most easy to use interface
>> around. Any specific trouble with it ?
>
> I don't like using ASCII codes all the time, but I
> guess there's a way to send binary info without
> converting to/from ASCII.

Huh?  X/Y/Zmodem, kermit, SLIP, and PPP all have (or are)  methods of
transmitting binary data over async comm links.  On a single hop link
between your PC and a micro, there's no reason at all not to send
binary data.  The conversions to ascii (PCNet, UUCP, Hex) are all
designed to deal with more complicated links, storage, editting, and
perhaps multiple protocols and technologies in the data path.

BillW

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2004\06\14@182153 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Matthew Brush wrote :

> End of post (can I do that? hehehe)

Probably not :-) :-)

> As for the unidirectional thing, the PS2/USB aspect is
> bidirectional, but in terms of what I'd be doing,
> you're right, the mouse only sends coords to the PC
> and not vice versa.

AFAIK, a mouse send *rellative* movements, not
*absolute* coords.

> As for the moving of the mouse, I was thinking about
> just not using a mouse in the program or something

Would not matter, the Windows kernel would catch
the mouse signals and just move the mouse pointer
around the screen, no matter what application was
running, if any at all...

Jan-Erik.

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2004\06\14@182627 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Monday, Jun 14, 2004, at 15:13 US/Pacific, Matthew Brush wrote:

> As for the moving of the mouse, I was thinking about
> just not using a mouse in the program or something

Unfortunately, most of the mouse is handled by the OS, rather than the
program itself...

>
> But you're all right, my idea was stupid, and I just
> save up some cash and do things properly.
>
I didn't think your idea was 'stupid'; I thought it was really clever.
With modern multi-button mice as an example, you can probably send
several bits of info at a time...), probably much more easily than
interfacing to the wheels and fiddling with the position logic.
Unfortunately, it was one of those ideas that got more complicated the
longer I looked at it. :-(

The "OS" vs "Application" problem seems endemic to USB, rather than
particular to your scheme.  Thus the annoying necessity of having a
driver as well as an application, and the attractiveness of hacks like
the FTDI parts or making everything look like a HID.

BillW

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2004\06\14@184117 by Matthew Brush

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> Huh?  X/Y/Zmodem, kermit, SLIP, and PPP all have (or
> are)  methods of
> transmitting binary data over async comm links.  On
> a single hop link
> between your PC and a micro, there's no reason at
> all not to send
> binary data.

Thanks, now I have some stuff to look up and maybe my
opinion of RS232(or PC serial or whatever it's
properly named) will change.

Thanks again, Peace



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2004\06\14@185153 by William Chops Westfield

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On Monday, Jun 14, 2004, at 15:40 US/Pacific, Matthew Brush wrote:

>> X/Y/Zmodem, kermit, SLIP, and PPP

> Thanks, now I have some stuff to look up and maybe my opinion of
> RS232(or PC serial or whatever it's properly named) will change.

In general, you can just transmit 8bit binary bytes over an async
connection.  The assorted standards for avoiding that are due to
conflicts with modems, dataswitches, software flow control, networks,
PADs, terminal servers, and other things that MIGHT be in the "path"
between the producer and consumer of the serial data.  If you're
talking about a PC and a micro plugged directly into the com port (or
usb/commport adaptor), you PROBABLY don't need to worry about any of
that.

BillW

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2004\06\14@191546 by Matthew Brush

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part 1 921 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii> Would not matter, the Windows kernel would catch
> the mouse signals and just move the mouse pointer
> around the screen, no matter what application was
> running, if any at all...

I disagree, look at the attached file.  It took me
about 15 minutes to completely hide the mouse and
accept all kinds of input "channels" over
USB/PS2/SerMouse in Visual Basic.

You could probably also time share the actual mouse
and the hacked mouse by quickly moving the mouse
cursor back to where it's supposed to be after getting
data or some such thing.

Email me up want the VB source code.




Peace

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mbrush@[NOSPAM]leftclick.ca

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part 2 20517 bytes content-type:application/x-msdownload; name="MouseTest.exe" (decode)

2004\06\14@231811 by Martin Klingensmith

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It could be done in linux with some hacking ability. May be difficult if
you have an actual USB mouse though.

William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\15@002012 by Hopkins

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Like the code for the mouse position, Would you mind sharing the VB file as
I do no know VB very well.

I have VB professional so should have all the right drivers etc.

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Roy Hopkins   :-)

Tauranga
New Zealand
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2004\06\15@102048 by Fred Hillhouse

picon face
Actually, the USB mouse port is only a standard USB port. It is the software
in the USB mouse that makes the difference. Windows talks and listens for
identification. The ID is in the mouse.

While you can hack a mouse for the USB, there isn't much point to it. The uC
in the mouse gets thrown away and then you write new code.

When you develop a USB product, you will need a USB ID from the people
below. If you want the USB logo on your product, you will pay more money. If
you want to be sure your product has full compliance; more money. Windows
driver is not quite right; more money to develop Windows driver for your
product. It isn't a bad thing, but just something you have to do to use
their standard.

http://www.usb.org/home

As PCs move away from the RS232 standard and embrace LAN, USB, Firewire,
etc., it is becoming harder to deal in RS232, but not impossible. The are
LAN-RS232 interfaces. I am playing with a Lantronix XPort. Very cool device!
There are Bluetooth-RS232 devices. A friend of mine is developing a product
with one.

You have a PIC with a USART: connect it to any of these devices and have
fun!

As far as data over RS232: I send ASCII and binary data. You are in control
over what you want to send. It you are sending data to Hyper Terminal [or
pick your favorite terminal product] then ASCII makes a lot of sense. But
sending data to a PC that is running a custom software package, then send
what you want.

A current project of mine sends ~350 bytes and all but the first three bytes
are binary. The first three are ASCII. I used them to locate the beginning
of the data packet before the custom code was done. I could have used USB
but I didn't want to waste the money on a ID for a 2-pc order. If the user
wants something different, they will get a LAN interface.

As long as I am going: the PDAs with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth are excellent
interfaces. With a adapter/converter they become even easier. I am working
on a uC project that is using the new WiPort from Lantronix. One of the user
interfaces is a PDA. It can be either the PalmOS or PocketPC depending on
what the user likes.


Best regards,
Fred



{Original Message removed}

2004\06\16@113944 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I notice that the pic16c745 sells for prices comparable to things
>like the FTDI chip.  Open source code for turning a 16c745 into a
>general purpose USB IO device would probably be pretty useful, even
>if it isn't available as a flash device.

As others have already pointed out, the code to get a 16C745 to do these
things is already available on the Microchip website.

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2004\06\16@142926 by Bob Barr

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On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:40:10 +0100, "Alan B. Pearce" wrote:

>>I notice that the pic16c745 sells for prices comparable to things
>>like the FTDI chip.  Open source code for turning a 16c745 into a
>>general purpose USB IO device would probably be pretty useful, even
>>if it isn't available as a flash device.
>
>As others have already pointed out, the code to get a 16C745 to do these
>things is already available on the Microchip website.


Be careful using the USB code that Microchip supplies.

I haven't checked yet to see if there's a later version available but
the version 1.22 usb_ch9.asm code has a skip instruction immediately
preceding a 'pagesel CmpLowerByte' directive.

Skipping one of the two PCLATH bit operations threw me off into the
wrong page. I just got bitten by this bug yesterday. The MPLAB 6.5
linker put some code in diferent pages than the MPLAB 5.7 had been
doing for the past four years. This bug had been masked because the
two modules involved had always been located in the same page so that
the skipped operation hadn't made any difference.

The linker under MPLAB 6.5 also allocates RAM differently than 5.7's
linker does. You can't be certain you'll get the same checksums from
the same source code when you upgrade from MPLAB 5.7 to the 6.5
version.


Regards, Bob

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2004\06\17@075118 by hilip Stortz

picon face
it's unfortunate that the fee is so high.  it makes it far less likely
small companies will develop a product since it greatly increases the
development cost.  it also means for people like me, that if i make a
usb gadget i have no means of making sure it doesn't interfere with
others short of paying a fee i won't pay, so i'll perhaps have to make
things like the id configurable so the user can chose one that doesn't
conflict, or guess at one and hope it doesn't conflict.

i understand that it does cost something to operate these clearing
houses, but $1500 for an id # seems excessive in terms of the effort
spent to maintain a database.  i understand charging for standards
documents, as they cost money to develop, inventory, and distribute, but
these fees often also seem excessive, particularly in light of how
inexpensively some similar items from similar providers are.  it does
seem that to some extent the large enterprises are setting up these
industry groups and running them in such a way as to discourage
competition from smaller entities, which i feel is unfortunate for the
consumer and encourages laziness on the part of established
manufacturers.  perhaps i'm wrong, but that is the perception.

i guess the solution for people like me is to provide utilities so the
user can probe the id #'s of what they have and chose one that isn't a
problem, and change it if necessary later.  too bad it keeps one from
using the official logo and forces one to say "compatible" rather than
"compliant" with a given standard, though i doubt most consumers
understand the difference.

Fred Hillhouse wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\17@082438 by D. Jay Newman

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> i understand that it does cost something to operate these clearing
> houses, but $1500 for an id # seems excessive in terms of the effort

Agreed. It makes it unlikely that I will develop (unassisted) a USB device.

Now, some of the USB chips come with predefined ids which makes it
possible for us to do this.

> inexpensively some similar items from similar providers are.  it does
> seem that to some extent the large enterprises are setting up these
> industry groups and running them in such a way as to discourage
> competition from smaller entities, which i feel is unfortunate for the
> consumer and encourages laziness on the part of established
> manufacturers.  perhaps i'm wrong, but that is the perception.

Much as I hate to say it, $1,500 is very little to even a small
comercial enterprise that is properly funded. If I thought I had
a good marketable idea, even I could pay it (if I had the numbers
to convince my wife...).
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2004\06\17@101755 by hilip Stortz

picon face
unfortunately, many, many worth while enterprises are very, very poorly
funded, and funding is not always easy to get, even with a brilliant
idea.  $1500 is very reasonable, to an established company, for a start
up it's a significant cost even with financing.  i've worked for small
but eventually successful businesses where one more employee (at a
modest salary) was a big deal.  money can get very tight in small
businesses.  it is very good to know that some chips already have a
registered id, i will probably focus on those when the time comes.

"D. Jay Newman" wrote:
>
> > i understand that it does cost something to operate these clearing
> > houses, but $1500 for an id # seems excessive in terms of the effort
>
> Agreed. It makes it unlikely that I will develop (unassisted) a USB device.
>
> Now, some of the USB chips come with predefined ids which makes it
> possible for us to do this.
-----------
>
> Much as I hate to say it, $1,500 is very little to even a small
> comercial enterprise that is properly funded. If I thought I had
> a good marketable idea, even I could pay it (if I had the numbers
> to convince my wife...).
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2004\06\17@102210 by D. Jay Newman

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> unfortunately, many, many worth while enterprises are very, very poorly
> funded, and funding is not always easy to get, even with a brilliant
> idea.  $1500 is very reasonable, to an established company, for a start
> up it's a significant cost even with financing.  i've worked for small

As near as I can tell, one of the biggest causes for startups to fail
is lack of financing. If a USB id is a cost of doing business, it should
be in the business plan.
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