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'[PIC:] Olin's Easyprog - ZIF connectors'
2004\08\02@082659 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Hmm.  When I started this project I deliberately looked
>around at ZIF sockets, and the Aries thru Jameco was well
>priced.  I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Jameco
>ships internationally, and therefore anything they sell
>would be accessible to hobbyists around the world.  They
>are probably the premier hobby electronics supplier here
>in the US.
>
>How much to you pay for ZIF sockets down under, and where
>do you get them?

It may not be a big problem, Olin. Someone mentioned that Farnell have the
Aries one, and they work all through Europe, Australasia, and a fair chunk
of the rest of the world (they have 23 flags on their web site front page at
http://www.farnell.com/ ).

Found it - Jan-Erik said
>Farnell also has the 40-pin "Aries" ZIP socket @ aprox
>$25 USD (excl the 25% Swedish VAT). The "universal" 40-pin
>3M Textool socket cost $55 each (excl VAT). I got them
>for $4 each from eBay (a batch of 50) b.t.w...

Farnell part no 178-238 for the 40-6554-10 which costs GBP 13.46 1 off.
(that will be US$23-40 at todays exchange rate)
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=178238&N=401

In NZ$ this is 56.15 for the same item, which will work out a little more
expensive I think.

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2004\08\02@084151 by Olin Lathrop

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> Farnell part no 178-238 for the 40-6554-10 which costs GBP 13.46 1
> off. (that will be US$23-40 at todays exchange rate)

Ouch!  Jameco (part number 104029) sells it for $11.25 in singles, $9.80
each for 10.  Shipping to the UK shouldn't add that much, especially if you
buy a few other things too.

It seems folks outside the US don't want to buy from Jameco.  Is that
because they don't know about it, excessive shipping charges, excessive
import taxes for countries that are bad at economics, rather run down the
street and get it now even if it costs twice the price, something else?

Looking at the Jameco catalog just now reminded me of another reason I used
that particular Aries socket.  It's one of the few that can accept both .3"
and .6" wide DIP packages.


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2004\08\02@090227 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> Farnell part no 178-238 for the 40-6554-10 which costs GBP 13.46
>> 1 off. (that will be US$23-40 at todays exchange rate)
>
>Ouch!  Jameco (part number 104029) sells it for $11.25 in singles,
>$9.80 each for 10.  Shipping to the UK shouldn't add that much,
>especially if you buy a few other things too.

<grin> the Brits don't call it "rip off Britain" for nothing :))))

However I think you will find that this sort of order of pricing
relationship will be the case for many items unless it is a really
mainstream item like something for a PC, video recorder, cellphone or
similar high quantity consumer item. ZIF connectors certainly do not come
into this category.

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2004\08\02@103125 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Olin Lathrop wrote :

> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> > Farnell part no 178-238 for the 40-6554-10 which costs GBP 13.46 1
> > off. (that will be US$23-40 at todays exchange rate)
>
> Ouch!  Jameco (part number 104029) sells it for $11.25 in
> singles, $9.80 each for 10.  Shipping to the UK shouldn't add that much,
> especially if you buy a few other things too.
>
> It seems folks outside the US don't want to buy from Jameco.

It's not the fault of Jameco. Anything that comes from non-EU
country will have customs fees and VAT added. In sweden this
is aprox 30-40% on top of the total amount (price + shipping cost).

And there is a very low chance that a package from one of the
large distributirs would "slip through" as a "gift" or "commercial
sample"... :-) :-)

And, when I checked with Digikey, they had some out-
of-the-question fees added for any "overseas" order. That is,
on top of the added shipping cost ! I think it was in the $10-$20
range. I've not checked if Jameco also have some extra fees for
overseas orders (not only the added shipping fees).

So, in all, US companies (and many peoples I've been
in contact with) seems to panic when asked about shipping
overseas. I've even had 2-3 sellers on eBay asking *ME* to
help them out with calculating the shipping cost *from* the
US to Sweden. It's no problem, I can run the online shipping
cost calculator at http://www.usps.com just as easily as any of them,
but anyway...


> Is that because they don't know about it, excessive shipping charges,
> excessive import taxes for countries that are bad at economics,

So you are saying that the US has "excessive import taxes" ??
Interesting...


> Looking at the Jameco catalog just now reminded me of another
> reason I used that particular Aries socket.  It's one of the few
> that can accept both .3" and .6" wide DIP packages.

Just as the 3M Textool "Universal" model, of which I just picked
up 50 of at my local post office. Got them at $4.00 each from someone
in Canada (I might wrongly have said US before...).

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\02@113012 by Howard Winter

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Olin,

I may not contribute much to the list, but I can certainly start a thread - sorry!  :-)

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:42:20 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> > Farnell part no 178-238 for the 40-6554-10 which costs GBP 13.46 1
> > off. (that will be US$23-40 at todays exchange rate)
>
> Ouch!  Jameco (part number 104029) sells it for $11.25 in singles, $9.80
> each for 10.  Shipping to the UK shouldn't add that much, especially if you
> buy a few other things too.

You'd be surprised...

> It seems folks outside the US don't want to buy from Jameco.  Is that
> because they don't know about it, excessive shipping charges, excessive
> import taxes for countries that are bad at economics, rather run down the
> street and get it now even if it costs twice the price, something else?

I placed an order with Jameco last night for that socket plus a load of other stuff to make up a decent order.
This is what I found:

(1) They don't tell you how much shipping is going to cost, not even when you've finished entering the order.
The choices (from memory) are 2 different speeds of UPS, and Air Mail, and for the latter they quote 2-3 weeks
(must be using a particularly slow aircraft!).  But with no indication of the cost, and I know from bitter
experience that this is something that can really bite you (I would expect the fastest UPS option to cost
about $50 or so, plus customs clearance fee, plus VAT).

(2) Sending an email to try to find out what the shipping cost will be (after placing the order - that's what
they tell you to do) the email address they gave for this: EraseMEinternationalspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTjameco.com  came straight back "The
e-mail account does not exist at the organization this message was sent to."  I re-sent it to  Infospamspam_OUTjameco.com
and I'm still waiting to hear anything.

I think the problem is that Jameco themselves aren't really set up for overseas business, rather than us not
wanting to buy from them!  :-)

> Looking at the Jameco catalog just now reminded me of another reason I used
> that particular Aries socket.  It's one of the few that can accept both .3"
> and .6" wide DIP packages.

The 3Ms are like that as well - see the following ebay item for a good picture of it:
 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3830317977

This one is in the UK - there's someone in Canada selling the same thing for less than half the price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4661&item=3830579391

but the shipping cost would probably more than wipe out the difference.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\02@115126 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote :

> I placed an order with Jameco last night for that socket plus
> a load of other stuff to make up a decent order.
> This is what I found:

[Story snipped...]

Seems very much like when I tried the same with Digikey...

> The 3Ms are like that as well [taking both narrow and wide DIPs]...

Yes, the "Universal" 3M model, not the "Standard" 40-pin model.

> there's someone in Canada selling the
> same thing for less than half the price:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4661&item=3830579391
>
> but the shipping cost would probably more than wipe out the difference.

That's the "40pin Universal IC ZIF Socket 3M or Textool"

I asked the seller :

> "Hi !
> I'm in need of 10 of these 40 pin ZIF sockets.
> How much would that be incl shipping to Sweden ?

To which he (or she, I'm not sure...) replied :

> Hi, thank you for your interest.
> The shipping will be US$6 to Sweden.
> This is Xpresspost international via Canada Post, 4 business days.
> Thank you & best regards,

But I finaly went for this offer :

> If you buy 100 units as follows:
>
> 50pcs 40pin: US$200
> 50pcs 20pin: US$125
> Xpresspost:  US$40
> ----------------------
>       total: US$365

They arrived today well packed...


Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\02@154017 by Olin Lathrop

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>> Is that because they don't know about it, excessive shipping charges,
>> excessive import taxes for countries that are bad at economics,
>
> So you are saying that the US has "excessive import taxes" ??

No, I was referring to countries that charge an additional 30-40% to allow
an item to be imported.  The US import taxes are generally reasonable except
in specific cases when the government gets into a pissing contest with some
other government.


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2004\08\02@161339 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Howard Winter wrote :

> I placed an order with Jameco last night for that socket plus
> a load of other stuff to make up a decent order.
> This is what I found:
>
> (1) They don't tell you how much shipping is going to cost,
> not even when you've finished entering the order.
> The choices (from memory) are 2 different speeds of UPS, and
> Air Mail, and for the latter they quote 2-3 weeks
> (must be using a particularly slow aircraft!).

Hi.
I forgot to say...

When I order from Farnell, I get a flat-rate shipping cost
of about $7.50, no matter what or how much I order.
That includes over-night delivery (DHL I think) from the
main European store in the UK to my door
far out in the countryside in Sweden. If I order on the web
before 5:00 in the afternoon, the stuff is delivered at my home
the day after. I think US based distributors have a hard time
competing there... :-)

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\02@210326 by Russell McMahon

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> Seems very much like when I tried the same with Digikey...

Digikey are somewhat better.
They give you the $/kg for various shipping options


       RM

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2004\08\17@172304 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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> Howard Winter wrote :
>
> > The 3Ms are like that as well [taking both narrow and wide DIPs]...
> > there's someone in Canada selling the
> > same thing for less than half the price:

And I reported that I had bought a batch of 40- and 20-pin sockets
from that Canadian guy. And that he did call them "3M/Textool sockets".

Well now, after carefully studying the sockets, I'm no longer
sure that they are real 3M sockets. Yes, they are marked "3M" (the
40-pin) and "TEXTOOL" (the 20-pin), and the color is right, but...

When looking closely at the 20 pin-socket, it is actualy market
"TFXTDOL". And it's pretty hard to see that the "F" isn't an "E"
and that the "D" isn't an "O". And when looking closely at
pictures of the 40-pin socket at the 3M site, there are minor
differences. It's like making fake "Rolex" watches and mark
them "Rollex", just so you'd be clean... :-)

Both sockets are marked with a part number in the "123-4567"
format used by 3M, but none of them are possible to find using
the search tools on the 3M web site (or in google).

So, currently it looks like those sockets are pretty well made
copies of the real 3M sockets. Well, well...

Finaly, our Canadian friend do not any longer mention either
"3M" or "Textool" in his eBay auctions :-) :-) Guess why...

Jan-Erik.
PS.
Note, I'm not saying that he *DID* know about this. He sounded
pretty upset in a mail I got and that he is investigating this
with his source.

PPS.
The sockets are probably still a good buy for the common
hobbyist, but they are (probably) *not* made by 3M.

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2004\08\19@183259 by Howard Winter

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Jan-Erik,

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:22:11 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Counterfeit ZIF sockets - now I've heard everything!  :-)

I got my Aries socket from Jameco eventually, and I think I can now answer Olin's question: "Why don't people
from abroad like buying from Jameco?" - in a nutshell, it's expensive, and a complete pain!

I padded my order out (I bought two of the Aries ZIF sockets for a start, the transistors, power and RJ11
sockets that Olin specified so that I wounld be doing it completely to spec (I've never seen that sort of
pinout on a DC power socket before, incidentally!).  The total came to $60.

I entered the order, and the first problem is that they give you no idea of the cost of shipping.  It told me
I'd get a confirming email, and I got an automatic response immediately, but by the end of the next day
nothing more.  I sent an email to the address on their site - it bounced "no such user".  I sent one to
"infoEraseMEspam.....jameco.com" and the next day got a response.  I was told that they were re-doing the web site and had
lost the order.  It took them another day, three emails day and two search attempts to collect everything from
the depths of their system - at one point they asked me what I'd ordered!  Anyway (now 3 days after I placed
the order) they gave me a choice of 4 shipping methods, the most expensive was $74, the cheapest (Global
Express) was just over $30 for "2lbs" - it actually weighed 1lb 7oz when it arrived.  I requested Global
Priority, but they said no, they insist on using a trackable shipping method "because of losses".  I have
*never* had a package using Global Priority go astray and I would have accepted the risk, but no, they
wouldn't do it.  So because they want to be protected, I have to pay for it!

One reason I dislike Global Express is that it takes longer (seems to get stuck for about three days after
landing here), more often than not it attracts VAT, and when that happens Parceforce charges £13.50 for
collecting it - as in this case.  I don't know why, but I seem to have been overcharged for the VAT too -
should have been about £8, but they charged £12.23 - I must get on to Customs to find out why.

The parcel was soaking wet, quite weak, and battered - now we have had torrential rain but I'd be surprised if
the parcel spent any time outside at this end of the journey.  Parcelforce had obviously noticed the problem
and had put it into a plastic bag of their own and sealed it.  When I opened the parcel the padding was (as
others have said) pathetic!  The goods were all on the bottom of the (soggy) box, and on top was paper
padding, so it was protected from impact on one side only... and one of the ZIF sockets had its operating arm
bent.  It still works, so I'm not going through the hassle of sending it back, but as this was the whole
reason for the order in the first place I thought that was rather ironic!

So, to sum up:  to get a socket with the right size mounting pins costing $11.25 from Jameco, I ended up
spending about $137.  Granted I got other stuff too - but only $60 worth.

So Olin, if you've made it this far, the reason I shan't be buying from Jameco again is that they are really
expensive to buy from when you're not in the USA (more than twice the basic cost), they are very inefficient
in handling the order - at least a dozen emails, and over two weeks from order to arrival, and their packaging
is hopeless.  So next time you're designing something for outside consumption, I for one would appreciate it
if you'd use things that are more widely available!   :-)))

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\19@185129 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote :

> Jan-Erik wrote :
>
> > So, currently it looks like those sockets are pretty well made
> > copies of the real 3M sockets. Well, well...
>
> Counterfeit ZIF sockets - now I've heard everything!  :-)
>

Hi.
Just to sum this up...

Some days ago I got this reply from the guy in Canada to
a question from me about the origin of the ZIF's  :


-- I got the feedback from my vendor.

-- They knew the marking on the ZIF is similar to Textool but
-- they couldn't trace out the source.
-- They told me there are all over the places selling this kind
-- of ZIF socket for years. And no one seems care about marking,
-- because its economic and it's in good quality too.

Well, two of the sockets I got are currently at the technical
support group at the 3M office in Sweden. Let's see if *they*
"care about marking"... :-) :-)

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\19@190620 by steve

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> Well, two of the sockets I got are currently at the technical
> support group at the 3M office in Sweden. Let's see if *they*
> "care about marking"... :-) :-)

Just curious. Did you send the others back and buy 3M ones ?
:-)

Steve.

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2004\08\19@191242 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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steve@TLA.CO.NZ wrote :

> Just curious. Did you send the others back and buy 3M ones ?
> :-)

I'm hoping 3M will just *replace* them for free as a "thank you"
for notifying them...
:-)

Jan-Erik

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2004\08\19@191243 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Howard Winter wrote :

> Anyway (now 3 days after I placed
> the order) they gave me a choice of 4 shipping methods, the
> most expensive was $74,...

You can check the *actual* shipping costs here :

  http://ircalc.usps.gov

(I use that one whenever I'm asked buy US'ers about the shipping cost
to send stuff *from* the US *to* Sweden... :-) )

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\19@193208 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> So Olin, if you've made it this far, the reason I shan't be buying
> from Jameco again is that they are really
> expensive to buy from when you're not in the USA (more than twice the
> basic cost), they are very inefficient
> in handling the order - at least a dozen emails, and over two weeks
> from order to arrival, and their packaging
> is hopeless.  So next time you're designing something for outside
> consumption, I for one would appreciate it
> if you'd use things that are more widely available!   :-)))

Sorry.  I truly had no idea it would be such a hassle for people outside the
US.  Jameco is actually the preferred vendor for hobby electronics stuff
here, and I use them a lot for basic stuff for the business too.

Maybe I should offer a kit, or a partial kit with the less common items in
it?


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2004\08\19@212449 by Ken Pergola

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For those that don't like Jameco, you could try JDR Microdevices
(http://www.jdr.com) -- another great electronics hobbyist joint. They sell Aries
ZIF sockets for *less money* than Jameco. I don't know how easy they are to
deal with for overseas customers though...

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\08\20@033054 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Ken Pergola wrote :

> For those that don't like Jameco, you could try JDR Microdevices
> (http://www.jdr.com) -- another great electronics hobbyist joint.
> They sell Aries ZIF sockets for *less money* than Jameco.
>  I don't know how easy they are to deal with for overseas customers
> though...

Hi.
Note that Farnell (available in many countries incl most European)
also has the Aries socket.

And since Farnell is a company with well established multi-country
business, they will probably be easier to deal with then those
US-based, US-centric ones.

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

PS.
Is "overseas" always ment to be "non-US", or is that depending on
where the one using that word happens to be at the moment ? Or,
in other words, do I have to know where Ken (in this specific case)
is living to know what he ment with "overseas" ? No big deal maybe...

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2004\08\20@042041 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> Well, two of the sockets I got are currently at the technical
>> support group at the 3M office in Sweden. Let's see if *they*
>> "care about marking"... :-) :-)
>
>Just curious. Did you send the others back and buy 3M ones ?
>:-)

I would ask for free ones for drawing it to their attention :)))

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2004\08\20@052138 by Russell McMahon

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> Note that Farnell (available in many countries incl most European)
> also has the Aries socket.
>
> And since Farnell is a company with well established multi-country
> business, they will probably be easier to deal with then those
> US-based, US-centric ones.

Farnell are usually very very very dear.
The can afford to charge well over usual cost as they specialise in
excellent delivery times and a vast and available stockholding.

HOWEVER - here they are also advertising that they will meet anyone else's
catalog price. They mean catalog fairly literally though. Not eg this week's
pricelist.

       RM

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2004\08\20@101246 by Nigel Orr

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pic microcontroller discussion list <> wrote:
> Maybe I should offer a kit, or a partial kit with the less common
> items in it?

Alternatively, use a distributor which has worldwide coverage.
RS (rshttp://www.com) and Newark (http://www.newark.com) both have good
coverage (RS is part of the Electrocomponents group of companies, Newark
parts are available through Farnell in the UK and elsewhere).

I realise that's not very useful for an existing design, but might be worth
bearing in mind if you anticipate an international audience for future
designs :-)

Some of the problems Howard mentions go for any shipping from the US
(particularly the 'standard' customs collection fees in the UK!), and can
make parts prohibitively expensive for hobbyists if a local source could be
available.

Nigel
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2004\08\20@101453 by Nigel Orr

flavicon
face
pic microcontroller discussion list <> wrote:
>> Note that Farnell (available in many countries incl most European)
>> also has the Aries socket.
>>
>> And since Farnell is a company with well established multi-country
>> business, they will probably be easier to deal with then those
>> US-based, US-centric ones.
>
> Farnell are usually very very very dear.
> The can afford to charge well over usual cost as they specialise in
> excellent delivery times and a vast and available stockholding.

That may be a country-specific thing?  In the UK, I would call their prices
'average'- typically cheaper than RS and Maplin, more expensive than CPC
and Rapid Electronics.

Nigel
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2004\08\20@101833 by Ken Pergola

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face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> Is "overseas" always ment to be "non-US", or is that depending on
> where the one using that word happens to be at the moment ? Or,
> in other words, do I have to know where Ken (in this specific case)
> is living to know what he ment with "overseas" ? No big deal maybe...


Hi Jan-Erik,

Not at all. Overseas simply means from the perspective of where JDR
Microdevices is located. If you are overseas from where JDR Microdevices is
located, you are an overseas customer.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\08\20@135548 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:14:53 +0100, Nigel Orr
<RemoveMEnigelEraseMEspamEraseMEaxoninstruments.co.uk> wrote:
> That may be a country-specific thing?  In the UK, I would call their [ Farnell] prices
> 'average'- typically cheaper than RS and Maplin, more expensive than CPC
> and Rapid Electronics.

Considering that CPC is part of Farnell, I'm always surprised at the
price difference between the two.

Dan

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2004\08\20@155427 by Dave Lag

picon face
ethics aside- are they a good value for the price?


> > Jan-Erik wrote :
> >
> > > So, currently it looks like those sockets are pretty well made
> > > copies of the real 3M sockets. Well, well...

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2004\08\20@161540 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Dave Lag wrote :

> > > Jan-Erik wrote :
> > >
> > > > So, currently it looks like those sockets are pretty well made
> > > > copies of the real 3M sockets. Well, well...

>
> ethics aside- are they a good value for the price?

They do "work".
They have not at all have the finish of the 3M (or Ariel) sockets.
They are tin-plated, not gold-plated.
They probably need a little more force to close and open
then those with better mechanical design.

Finaly, I phoned the Swedish 3M office earlier today, and the
two sockets I sent them have now been transfered
to the European 3M HQ. :-)

It's going to be real interesting to see where this all ends...
I've been promised a message from 3M wheither I can use/sell
my sockets, or if they should be sent to 3M directly.


Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\20@162823 by Matt Redmond

picon face
part 1 623 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (decoded 7bit)

I bought two 40-pin 3M universal ZIF sockets from Peter Crowcroft for $12 each.  I think I paid $5 shipping for shipment to Texas.  He has more:  http://www.kitsrus.com/bits.html

BTW - his DIY Kit #128 Flash PIC programmer has been outstanding, as has the very good programming software it comes with.  Just FYI.  Unfortunately it doesn't do ICSP but otherwise it's awesome.  I think I paid fifty bucks or so for it (with ZIF socket).







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part 2 1290 bytes content-type:null; (decode)

2004\08\20@180002 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:28 PM 8/20/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>I bought two 40-pin 3M universal ZIF sockets...

The Chinese counterfeit ZIF sockets are marked "3M" (molded right into the
plastic), just not made by them. There are other counterfeit parts in
South China...

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspam_OUTspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2004\08\20@182323 by Matt Redmond

picon face
Spehro,

Jan-Erik was kind enough to send me pics of his counterfeit sockets.  It appears (though I haven't confirmed by looking at mine - just pics at Peter's site) that mine are also counterfeit.  I e-mailed him just in case he was unaware (doubt it!).

But to tell the truth, I'm perfectly happy with them.  I was using an Aries and when my '3M' units came in, I remember thinking how much nicer they were than the Aries.  They actuate more easily, seem better built, etc...  Which sucks for Aries - when counterfeiters can outdo them.

In any case, I should rescind my plug for Peter as far as the ZIF sockets go.  If you want counterfeits there are much better deals out there :-)  His programmer (Kit 128) is still awesome & I'm sure his others are great too.


-matt








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2004\08\20@183358 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Matt Redmond wrote :

> Jan-Erik was kind enough to send me pics of his counterfeit
> sockets.

Hi.
Let me be clear here. I have *not*, at this stage, got any clear
statement from 3M yet !! So don't take my word for what those
sockets are or aren't at *this* stage !

> It appears (though I haven't confirmed by looking
> at mine - just pics at Peter's site) that mine are also
> counterfeit.

Maybe, but let's wait and see what 3M has to say about it.

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\20@184022 by Matt Redmond

picon face
part 1 810 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (decoded 7bit)

Okay, I'm sorry - perhaps I jumped the gun.  But the ones I bought definitely aren't gold-plated and 3M's are.  Just from the pics I can tell that much.  3M's datasheets also say their parts are stamped with their part #s - the one's I've seen are stamped with a non-existant part number.  So I simply concluded that they must be (a) old parts or (b) counterfeit & decided the latter was more likely.

-matt


>
> From: Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholmSTOPspamspamspam_OUTTELIA.COM>
> Date: 2004/08/20 Fri PM 10:35:03 GMT
> To: spamBeGonePICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [PIC:] Olin's Easyprog - ZIF connectors
>
>


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part 2 852 bytes content-type:null; (decode)

2004\08\20@184642 by Bob Blick

face picon face
> 3M's datasheets also say their parts are stamped with their
> part #s - the one's I've seen are stamped with a non-existant part number.
>  So I simply concluded that they must be (a) old parts or (b) counterfeit
> & decided the latter was more likely.

Another thing to think about - many companies do limited OEM runs of parts
- so even with a part number that seems wrong that doesn't say they aren't
3M. For instance, some large OEM could have asked for tin plated ZIFs, and
if the order is big enough then I bet 3M would oblige, and put a different
part number on them.

Cheers,

Bob

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2004\08\20@190550 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 03:46 PM 8/20/2004 -0700, you wrote:


>Another thing to think about - many companies do limited OEM runs of parts
>- so even with a part number that seems wrong that doesn't say they aren't
>3M. For instance, some large OEM could have asked for tin plated ZIFs, and
>if the order is big enough then I bet 3M would oblige, and put a different
>part number on them.

I have no comment on particular suppliers, but I know for a fact that there
are counterfeit sockets marked "3M" made in China. Photos of the "3M"s:

http://www.speff.com/3m_fake.jpg

http://www.speff.com/3m_real.jpg

3m logo:

http://www.3m.com/index.jhtml


Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2004\08\20@225538 by Matt Pobursky

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face
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:17:11 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> I have no comment on particular suppliers, but I know for a fact that
> there are counterfeit sockets marked "3M" made in China. Photos of
> the "3M"s:
>
> http://www.speff.com/3m_fake.jpg
>
> http://www.speff.com/3m_real.jpg
>
> 3m logo:
>
> http://www.3m.com/index.jhtml

Well at least they spelled it correctly...

A good friend of mine travels to China quite regularly and the last
time he was there stopped at a local market that's known to sell (quite
good) U.S. brand knock-off products. He saw a "Peanuts" shirt that he
thought his daughter would really like but something looked strange to
him. After looking for several more seconds he realized that the
caption "Spoony" probably wasn't right... ;-)

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2004\08\22@081352 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Spehro,

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:17:11 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

> I have no comment on particular suppliers, but I know
for a fact that there
> are counterfeit sockets marked "3M" made in China.
Photos of the "3M"s:
>
> http://www.speff.com/3m_fake.jpg
>
> http://www.speff.com/3m_real.jpg
>
> 3m logo:
>
> http://www.3m.com/index.jhtml

Right - as far as I can see the conterfeits have a gap
between the 3 and the M (the real ones don't) and the
fake "M" is wider, with a much shallower angle in the
middle.

On that basis, all of mine are fakes!  :-(

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\22@084723 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Howard Winter

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:17:11 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
> wrote:
>
> > http://www.speff.com/3m_fake.jpg
> > http://www.speff.com/3m_real.jpg
> > http://www.3m.com/index.jhtml
>
> Right - as far as I can see the conterfeits have a gap
> between the 3 and the M (the real ones don't) and the
> fake "M" is wider, with a much shallower angle in the
> middle.
>
> On that basis, all of mine are fakes!  :-(

Hi.
Now, deas ANYONE have a "real" 3M/Textool socket ??? :-)

And, just to try to put this on-topic again :-),
last night I won an eBay auction of what's
supposed to be an Ariel socket to my EasyProg PCB.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3833827585

I expect the total to be between 8 and 9 USD incl shipping.

Does anyone see anything suspicious with that one,
judging from the pics on eBay ? :-) :-)

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\22@090303 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
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Olin,

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:31:26 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Sorry.  I truly had no idea it would be such a hassle for people outside the US.

Not your fault - the differences between the English-Speaking countries goes much further than being "divided
by a common language"!  :-)

> Jameco is actually the preferred vendor for hobby electronics stuff here, and I use them a lot for basic
stuff for the business too.

So I gather - we have "Maplin" (http://www.maplin.co.uk) which is a chain of shops and mailorder, and
originally did mainly components.  As the years have passed, they have cut back more and more on components
and added consumer devices and electronic toys, to the point that the latter seems to fill most of their shops
nowadays.  The cutback on components is really annoying, for example the only ZIF socket they do is 32-pin...
anyone know what chip this might be for?  :-#  At one time I would get virtually everything I needed from
them, but nowadays they are way down my list for anything that can wait a few days.  When I urgently need a
430ohm resistor I can drive there, but the number of times something in their catalogue turns out to be
"special order only" in the shops has annoyed me into "dropping" them for normal supplies.

> Maybe I should offer a kit, or a partial kit with the less common items in it?

A partial kit would be a Good Thing.  From my perspective it would contain the PCB, ZIF socket, the DC socket
(it has a pinout I've never seen before!), the RJ12 socket (not vital but not something I keep in stock), and
possibly the transistors.  The latter depends on whether substitutions would be OK - we discussed this earlier
and 3904/6 seemed to be acceptable.  Others may want the OpAmp (I happened to have a couple) and for those for
whom this is their first programmer that vital part: the programmed PIC!  I'd say a target price of less than
$30 so that it gets under the VAT horizon, and I think the above does that.

Not that I'll need another one, of course - and anyway I need to stop bulding programmers as a displacement
activity and start building actual projects!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\22@100307 by Tony Smith

picon face
This thread on fake ZIF sockets triggered a memory.  Over a year ago (June
2003) I brought a few ZIFs from Futurlec, including these ones
<http://www.futurlec.com/Sockets/ZIFS18.shtml>.

I haven't used them, so I dug them out of the parts box.  Sure enough,
stamped TFXTODL, part #218-3345, and patent #3500745.  Looks like these have
been around for quite a while.

Note that Futurlec never claim that they are the 3M brand. With hindsight,
you notice that in the photo, the arm obscures the writing on socket...  As
Jan-Erik said, they'll work ok.

Here's a page on other fake parts
<http://sound.westhost.com/counterfeit.htm>, and more on fake stuff in
general
<www.iccbooksusa.com/index.cfm?fid=194&bookid=117&beid=166&navigation
ok=false>.  Doesn't mention how the Mafia made fake butter in Italy/Sicily a
few years ago.

Tony

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2004\08\22@101117 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> And, just to try to put this on-topic again :-),
> last night I won an eBay auction of what's
> supposed to be an Ariel socket to my EasyProg PCB.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3833827585
>
> I expect the total to be between 8 and 9 USD incl shipping.
>
> Does anyone see anything suspicious with that one,
> judging from the pics on eBay ? :-) :-)

By the way, it's "Aries", not "Ariel".  I think it's funny that the title on
this web page refers to 3M and Textool brands, but the picture is indeed an
Aries.

I got out a spare EasyProg compatible ZIF socket and compared it to the
pictures, and this appears to be the exact same model I called for in the
BOM and have tested in the EasyProg.  It is even the version that is closed
with the handle down.  The other version will work, but won't match the
instructions.


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2004\08\22@104738 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Olin,

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:07:50 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> I got out a spare EasyProg compatible ZIF socket and compared it to the
> pictures, and this appears to be the exact same model I called for in the
> BOM and have tested in the EasyProg.  It is even the version that is closed
> with the handle down.

I hadn't realised there was a choice!

I just checked my Microchip Universal Programming Module (AC162049) which has, confusingly, a *black* 3M
socket, and its instructions say, in BIG LETTERS: "***Warning*** ZIF socket handle must be in the up (locked)
position prior to programming the microcontorller or it will not program properly".  Handle-up on this moves
the gold-plated leaves in each slot apart, which I had previously thought was "open".

Doing it either way will grip the IC pins, but doing it their way means the contact is on one side only and
the holding pressure is from a spring.  Treating handle-down as closed means both-sides contact, with the
force of pushing the handle down applying the holding pressure.

Thoughts, anyone?

Incidentally, the "3M" on this socket looks just like the ones we're starting to call "counterfeit"!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\22@105739 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> I just checked my Microchip Universal Programming Module (AC162049)
> which has, confusingly, a *black* 3M socket, and its instructions
> say, in BIG LETTERS: "***Warning*** ZIF socket handle must be in the
> up (locked) position prior to programming the microcontorller or it
> will not program properly".  Handle-up on this moves the gold-plated
> leaves in each slot apart, which I had previously thought was "open".

That sounds like a screwup in the documentation.  It was probably cut and
pasted from the PicStart+ documentation, which uses the same Aries ZIF
socket as the EasyProg except with the opposite handle orientation.  With
the Aries units, there is no way to insert a chip with the pins closed.

> Doing it either way will grip the IC pins, but doing it their way
> means the contact is on one side only and the holding pressure is
> from a spring.  Treating handle-down as closed means both-sides
> contact, with the force of pushing the handle down applying the
> holding pressure.

On the Aries units, the handle force is always used to oppose the spring
that tries to keep the pins closed.  This is good, since it means the handle
can't be used to jam the socket shut on unusually wide pins, which might
damage the pins or the socket.


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2004\08\22@142312 by John Hudson

flavicon
face
Howard,

Howard Winter wrote:

>
>So I gather - we have "Maplin" (http://www.maplin.co.uk) which is a chain of shops and mailorder, and
>originally did mainly components..
>
>The cutback on components is really annoying, for example the only ZIF socket they do is 32-pin...
>anyone know what chip this might be for?
>

I agree with most of your comments about Maplin BUT they do supply 40
pin ZIFs (I have just purchased two from my local store) and they can be
purchased from the web site
(http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=040822181735715&moduleno=2550&Products=1).

However, they do not describe them as ZIF sockets but instead refer to
them as Universal Test Sockets!!

Regards,

John

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2004\08\22@165316 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Aug 22, 2004, at 6:03 AM, Howard Winter wrote:

> The cutback on components is really annoying, for example the only ZIF
> socket they do is 32-pin...  anyone know what chip this might be for?

EPROMs.  Above 27c512s (64kByte), the standard pinout is a .6inch wide
32pin DIP.  I think EPROMS up to 256kbyte (27c040, 4 megabit) are still
pretty widely used.  Above that flash becomes more attractive.

BillW

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2004\08\22@165606 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
John,

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:14:09 +0100, John Hudson wrote:

> I agree with most of your comments about Maplin BUT
they do supply 40
> pin ZIFs (I have just purchased two from my local
store) and they can be
> purchased from the web site
>
(www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=0408
22181735715&moduleno=2550&Products=1).
>
> However, they do not describe them as ZIF sockets but
instead refer to
> them as Universal Test Sockets!!

That's weird!  In my catalogue, admittedly just going
out-of-date, that part number (JK75S) is described as
for "ICs of any size up to 32 pins".  If I'd known that
was (apparently) a typo, I'd have bought one!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\22@170320 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
> (www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=0408
> 22181735715&moduleno=2550&Products=1).

> However, they do not describe them as ZIF sockets but
> instead refer to them as Universal Test Sockets!!

They don't give any producer name on that web page, but as far
as I can see from the pictures, they seems to be the "Aries" socket
that this whole thread was about from the beginning... :-)

Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\22@192817 by John Hudson

flavicon
face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>
>
>They don't give any producer name on that web page, but as far
>as I can see from the pictures, they seems to be the "Aries" socket
>that this whole thread was about from the beginning... :-)
>
>
>
>
Actually they are ELK040 sockets - data can be obtained here:
http://www.progshop.com/shop/sockets/index.shtml

John

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2004\08\23@031031 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
John Hudson wrote :

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3833827585
>
> >They don't give any producer name on that web page, but as far
> >as I can see from the pictures, they seems to be the "Aries" socket
> >that this whole thread was about from the beginning... :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Actually they are ELK040 sockets - data can be obtained here:
> http://www.progshop.com/shop/sockets/index.shtml
>
> John

Hi.
Why do you think that ?
Do you know something about this eBay item that I don't know ?
Is the picture in the auction wrong ? That clearly shows the "Aries" name ?
Or are you just guessing ??
Jan-Erik.

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2004\08\23@045139 by Peter Crowcroft

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> Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:21 +0200
>From:    Jan-Erik Soderholm <EraseMEjan-erik.soderholmspam@spam@TELIA.COM>
>Subject: Re: [PIC:] Olin's Easyprog - ZIF connectors

>Some days ago I got this reply from the guy in Canada to
>a question from me about the origin of the ZIF's  :

I get mine direct from

Yanhai Kexin Elec & Tech Co Ltd
Zhinchun Rd, Beijing, China.

I think the name translates to 3M in English   :-)




regards,
                DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
      PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Factory: voice 852-2304 2250    Fax: 852-2729 1400
      M/F, 97 Fuk Wa Street, Sham Shui Po, HK
Home: voice 852-2720 0255,       Mobile: 852-6273 2049
Web:  http://www.kitsrus.com     Email: @spam@peterhkspam_OUTspam.....kitsrus.com
               MSNv6.2:  spamBeGonepeter5998EraseMEspamhotmail.com

   Chinese/Thai language emails to  peter5998spamBeGonespamnetvigator.com
---------------------------------------------------------------

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2004\08\23@062233 by John Hudson

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Jan-Eric we seem to have some crossed wires here.  My reply was to this
post:

(www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=0408
> 22181735715&moduleno=2550&Products=1).

>> However, they do not describe them as ZIF sockets but
>> instead refer to them as Universal Test Sockets!!
>
>
They don't give any producer name on that web page, but as far as I can
see from the pictures, they seems to be the "Aries" socket that this
whole thread was about from the beginning... :-) Jan-Erik. --

That post appears to be showing that you replied to my response to
Howard about product supplied by Maplin in the UK.
Your latest post  contains:

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>>> > cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3833827585
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>>> >They don't give any producer name on that web page, but as far
>>> >as I can see from the pictures, they seems to be the "Aries" socket
>>> >that this whole thread was about from the beginning...  :-)
>>
This post uses the same words about ' the producer name' but now
contains a link to an eBay item  not the Maplin one that I had refered
to in my email.  Not too sure how this unfortunate confusion has arrisen
but possibly due to me cutting out too much of the original text in my
reply.
Sorry if I have caused confusion.

John

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2004\08\23@063104 by Kev Pearce (kevp.com)

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I have one of the Maplin 40 pin ZIF/Universal Test Sockets in front of me.
It is marked ELK040.
Googling this I found:
http://batronix.com/electronic/datasheets/leversockets.shtml

Hope this helps

Kev/.

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2004\08\23@070050 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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John Hudson wrote :

> Jan-Eric we seem to have some crossed wires here.  My reply
> was to this post:
>
> (www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=0408
> > 22181735715&moduleno=2550&Products=1).

Yes, I mixed that up with the my eBay item :-) :-) Sorry about that...

Reagrds
/Jan-Erik.

B.t.w, I just talked with the guy at the Swedish 3M office.
He is currently waiting for the official statement from their
legal department. He read from a note he'd got from some 3M
tech guy in the US. Funny reading, but I could not quote him...

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2004\08\23@091959 by Howard Winter

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Kev,

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:31:19 +0100, Kev Pearce
(kevp.com) wrote:

> I have one of the Maplin 40 pin ZIF/Universal Test
Sockets in front of me.
> It is marked ELK040.

For future reference, does it look as if it will fit
into normal holes in a PCB (intended for ordinary IC
sockets) of has it got the wide pins that the 3Ms have?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\23@100810 by Kev Pearce (kevp.com)

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Howard,

The pins themselves are rectangular and measure 0.81mm at the widest point.
(Although the spec sheet says 0.76mm)
They fit into the holes standard on the prototype strip board I use fine
however these holes are 1.1mm, I guess you'd have to do a layout with 1mm
rather than 0.8mm holes.

Kev/.


{Original Message removed}

2004\08\23@101605 by John Hudson

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Howard Winter wrote:

>
>>It is marked ELK040.
>>
>>
>
>For future reference, does it look as if it will fit
>into normal holes in a PCB (intended for ordinary IC
>sockets) of has it got the wide pins that the 3Ms have?
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>
I am using mine on VeroBoard and it fits easily.  The data sheet shows
that the pins are rectangular, 0.3mm x  0.76mm with pin spacing of 2.54mm

John

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2004\08\23@102813 by Howard Winter

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Kev,

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:08:13 +0100, Kev Pearce (kevp.com) wrote:

> Howard,
>
> The pins themselves are rectangular and measure 0.81mm at the widest point.
> (Although the spec sheet says 0.76mm)
> They fit into the holes standard on the prototype strip board I use fine
> however these holes are 1.1mm, I guess you'd have to do a layout with 1mm
> rather than 0.8mm holes.

Thanks for that - I saw the spec. sheet but I've found before now that these can be inaccurate on small
measurements like this, as you say.  That makes them pretty much the same size as the 3M version, and the
problem is using them in other peoples' designs, rather than my own.  I have a number of boards that would
benefit from a ZIF socket but the 3M won't go in!  I have a couple of the Aries sockets now (one for Olin's
Easyprog and one spare) but it would have been nice if in future I could get the Maplin ones and know they'd
work... ah well, ne'er mind  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\23@150736 by Peter L. Peres

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>That's weird!  In my catalogue, admittedly just going
>out-of-date, that part number (JK75S) is described as
>for "ICs of any size up to 32 pins".  If I'd known that
>was (apparently) a typo, I'd have bought one!

If it's a narrow/wide ZIF then that is true. I have a narrow/wide ZIF that
is used for pal/eprom/microprocessor programming and it takes anything
from 8 pin (12C508 dip and eeproms) to 40 pins, narrow or wide.

Peter

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2004\08\23@150737 by Peter L. Peres

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>Doing it either way will grip the IC pins, but doing it their way means
>the contact is on one side only and the holding pressure is from a
>spring.  Treating handle-down as closed means both-sides contact, with
>the force of pushing the handle down applying the holding pressure.

I have an original counterfeit zif socket (no logo) where you can put the
chip in when it's either open or closed ;-) If you put it in where it's
closed and open it then it catches the ic pins from one side with a metal
contact against each plastic well wall. If you put it in when it's open
and close it then it catches the pins between two metal leafs. I guess
it's a close/close socket where you can't go wrong ;-) Maybe the
instructions should say 'do not leave the lever in the middle, anything
else is ok'.

Peter

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