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'[PIC:] MPLAB Error 173'
2004\07\02@050428 by zantos

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MPLAB 6.6 on Windows XP
Any know why I get a "Error[173]   C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS.............. :
source file path exceeds 62 characters" when I do a Make on my project or where
the setting is to change the default please?
z

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2004\07\02@053411 by

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zantos wrote :

> MPLAB 6.6 on Windows XP
> Any know why I get a "Error[173]   C:\DOCUMENTS AND
> SETTINGS.............. :
> source file path exceeds 62 characters"

Hm, could be because your source file path exceeds 62
characters !? I think the error messaage is pretty clear...

> when I do a Make on
> my project or where
> the setting is to change the default please?

Make the path to your source files shorter.

And, besides, "\Document and settings..." is not the place
where *I* would put my PIC source files...

Jan-Erik.

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2004\07\02@060158 by zantos

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Thank you for your reply Jan-Erik. Yes, I can confirm it work's when the project
it is moved to a shorter path name. But that wasn't where I wanted to place my
project. I just wanted to know where the default was to change the path name
length. I keep all my work under one  directory to make backup easier. I will
have to manage with shorter path until I find the setting.
Thank for your help
z



{Original Message removed}

2004\07\02@061229 by Marcel van Lieshout

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If you are running NT, 2K or XP the following may help:

In a commandprompt:
subst X: "C:\Documents and Settings/yourprojectdir"

Now the projectdirectory is also available through "drive" X:

Executing "subst X: /d" deletes the reference

HTH

Marcel

zantos wrote:
> Thank you for your reply Jan-Erik. Yes, I can confirm it work's when the project
> it is moved to a shorter path name. But that wasn't where I wanted to place my
> project. I just wanted to know where the default was to change the path name
> length. I keep all my work under one  directory to make backup easier. I will
> have to manage with shorter path until I find the setting.
> Thank for your help
> z
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\02@070122 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan-Erik Svderholm XA (TN/PAC)" <spam_OUTjan-erik.xa.soderholmTakeThisOuTspamERICSSON.COM>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> And, besides, "\Document and settings..." is not the place
> where *I* would put my PIC source files...

Depending on your backup strategy, it may well be a very good place.  But
with the 62 character limitation, it's not a very realistic place.

It does lead me to another query, however.  How DO people back up?

Windows has gotten so large, and Windows software even larger, that a
nightly full backup is pretty unrealistic for most of us.  In addition,
Windows buries so many unrelated things in the same directories, and locks
so may files, that it isn't really practical, as best I can tell, to backup
Windows while Windows is running.

Seems like a relatively infrequent full backup, along with a more frequent
backup of Documents and Settings, is more reasonable.  Of course, you place
an awful lot of setting information at risk, and it is hard to convince a
lot of programs to put your data where you want, but I don't see much in the
way of alternatives.  Or does everyone just use RAID and call it good?

--McD

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2004\07\02@073724 by Hazelwood Lyle

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>It does lead me to another query, however.  How DO people back up?

Whether I am at my home or work machine, I simply drag & drop my
project directory onto a USB Flash drive. I then rename the
directory on flash with something that reflects the date.

This allows me to keep my project "in synch" on both machines, and
also keeps some dated versions of the work in progress.

I do occasionally (monthly?) drag the entire contents of the flash
drive to an archive directory on my home machine, then wipe the flash clean.


This may not be the most secure method, but it works for me.

Lyle

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2004\07\02@074347 by David Duffy

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John J. McDonough wrote:

>>And, besides, "\Document and settings..." is not the place
>>where *I* would put my PIC source files...
>>
>>
>
>Depending on your backup strategy, it may well be a very good place.  But
>with the 62 character limitation, it's not a very realistic place.
>
>

Keeping important files in "Documents and settings" is not a good idea as
deleting a profile could potentialy delete all of your hard work! Better to
use a data directory that either hangs of the drive's root or on a network
share. (this is what I do) Re-formatting your OS drive poses absolutely
no danger to your precious data that way. Seriously consider this. :-)

{Quote hidden}

RAID is not a substitute for backups. If you want backups, copy data
to another media/machine/place. I personally use Rsync to update our
data files each night to an off-site location. (tunnelled over the internet)
There's no need to copy the whole Windoze drive - just your data.
Keeping your data separate from your OS and applications is a very
important step to making your life a whole lot easier & more efficient.
David...

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2004\07\02@075630 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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John J. McDonough wrote :

> It does lead me to another query, however.  How DO people back up?

I try to keep all my voilatile data (project stuff, documents, sources)
on some C:\data\... or C:\projects\... directly or something similar.
Anyway, something *not* created/managed by Windows.

> Windows has gotten so large, and Windows software even larger, that a
> nightly full backup is pretty unrealistic for most of us.  In
> addition, Windows buries so many unrelated things in the same
> directories, and locks so may files, that it isn't really practical,
> as best I can tell, to backup Windows while Windows is running.

And Windows is so brain-dead that you can not, AFAIK take a
full online backup (while the system is up) and as result have
a full system-disk backup that you just can restore in one
operation (to the same or to another system) and get a bootable
system. Gosh...

> Seems like a relatively infrequent full backup,

Do you mean a off-line backup ? With the system shut
down and booted from some other source like a CD ?

> along with a
> more frequent backup of Documents and Settings, is more
> reasonable.  Of course, you place
> an awful lot of setting information at risk, and it is hard
> to convince a lot of programs to put your data where you want,

But if you can, do. And MPLAB definitly can.
I'd rather lose some easy-to-redo Windows settings, then
my current PIC project source files.

> but I don't see much in the
> way of alternatives.  Or does everyone just use RAID and call it good?

If it's a server that a lot of users are using, I'd just use shadowed disks using
some disk subsystem with hot-swaps of disks and online shadowset rebuilds,
so you can replace a (single) crashed disk without any hickup in the production.

This is not a replacement for good backups, but more of a protection
againts single disk failurs.

Jan-Erik.

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2004\07\02@080047 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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David Duffy wrote :

> There's no need to copy the whole Windoze drive - just your data.

Well, if the drive crashes, I think you'd wanted a full
backup that you just could restore to a new/replaced drive and boot.
Now, this *is* hard to do with Windows...

But, yes, I'd rather lose "just" the Windows enviroment and not
my project files at the same time.

Jan-Erik.

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2004\07\02@080941 by David Bearrow

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I use an external Maxtor 200 gig hard drive. It has a programmable button
you can setup so that it performs a full backup just by 1 push of that
button. It uses software called Retrospect. It even fully backs up Windows
while Windows is running allowing you to restore a fully bootable exact
image of your backup.

David Bearrow

At 06:55 AM 7/2/04, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\02@095339 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Duffy" <.....davidKILLspamspam@spam@AUDIOVISUALDEVICES.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> Keeping important files in "Documents and settings" is not a good idea as
> deleting a profile could potentialy delete all of your hard work! Better
to

Well, it's not like on 9x where this is easy to do.  NT5+ seems loath to
delete these directories even if you delete the user.  Of course, on NTFS if
you delete the user you're not getting the file back anyway.

> use a data directory that either hangs of the drive's root

Yeah, well, with MPLAB you pretty much gotta do this.

> or on a network share. (this is what I do)

Not everyone has this luxury. In fact, this is what I do, and the shares are
on Linux so it's somewhat easier to back up.

> Keeping your data separate from your OS and applications is a very
> important step to making your life a whole lot easier & more efficient.

I absolutely agree, but on Windoze 95 it was really hard, and it's gotten
harder every release since then.

--McD

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2004\07\02@100625 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholmspamKILLspamTELIA.COM>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> Do you mean a off-line backup ? With the system shut
> down and booted from some other source like a CD ?

Yes, exactly.  I use Norton Ghost, but it's pretty painful.  And I really
HATE doing my backups with some proprietary thing.  I can be guaranteed that
in another operating system release or two those old backup DVDs will become
unreadable because of software incompatibility.

I used to back everything up with zip, but so much of Windows has gotten
unreachable when Windows is running that has become pretty impractical.
Back in the 9x days, you could export the registry before the backup and you
were good to go.  It was a little bit of a pain restoring, but reasonable.
Now there are hundreds of files you can't get at.  Zip has the wonderful
ability to be used on every operating system known to man, and make sense
out of different file naming limitations.

Now I need to be happy with moving my data off to file shares, and backing
those up with tar.  I probably should use zip, but tar is pretty convenient.
And a gzipped tar can be read on almost as many OSes as a zip, so it gives
me some confidence that if I need to go back to a stale backup I will be
able to.

> I'd rather lose some easy-to-redo Windows settings, then

Boy, I don't buy that.  Back in Windows 3.1 maybe they were "easy-to-redo",
but these days there are thousands of them, and many are a lot more critical
than the title bar color.

> my current PIC project source files.

Yeah, well, they go on more than one place.  If it's more than a little
hack, I not only keep sources on a file share, but also in an RCS library.
I'm a huge fan of RCS.  For things like sources, it's a lot better than a
pile of backups on the shelf ... not a replacement, but a wonderful
supplement. Like zip, RCS works on every OS known to man, so I can pull an
old OS/2 source out with Windoze, and stuff it back with Linux.

--McD

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2004\07\02@100832 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bearrow" <.....davebeKILLspamspam.....SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> button. It uses software called Retrospect. It even fully backs up Windows
> while Windows is running allowing you to restore a fully bootable exact
> image of your backup.

Have you ever actually restored one of those to a virgin drive?  I've seen a
lot of software CLAIM to do that, but not seen one that actually works on
NT5+.

--McD

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2004\07\02@101626 by Bob Ammerman

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> And, besides, "\Document and settings..." is not the place
> where *I* would put my PIC source files...
>
> Jan-Erik.


Actually, the full path involved is probably

Documents and Settings\<username>\my documents\<something>

Which is an entirely reasonable place to put things

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\07\02@103256 by Jim Tellier

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The OP wrote:
> MPLAB 6.6 on Windows XP
> Any know why I get a "Error[173]   C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS..............
:
> source file path exceeds 62 characters" when I do a Make on my project or
where
> the setting is to change the default please?

and Bob Ammerman wrote:
> Actually, the full path involved is probably
> Documents and Settings\<username>\my documents\<something>
> Which is an entirely reasonable place to put things
>

Bob,  I couldn't agree more!
IMHO, if MicroChip claims MPLAB to be WinXP (or NT, or 2K, or...) compliant,
then the "62 character limitation" is plainly a BUG that should be reported.
Post-Win95 support for "Long File Names" is one of the most obvious OS
differences that tool developers *must* address when porting their legacy
code to newer platforms!  It's up to version 6.6 (!) and they still have
these stupid issues.   Let's suggest they fix 'em!!!
Jim

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2004\07\02@104328 by Ken Pergola

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Hi Zantos,

If you are using the linker, you can circumvent this -- MPLAB IDE allows you
to suppress COD file generation (which also suppresses the generation of a
.LST file I think). Anyway, there is plenty of information on the Microchip
Forums about this. Just do a quick search and you'll get a lot of matches.


Try this if you are using the linker:

Under MPLAB IDE:

1) Project ==> Build Options == > Project

2) Select the MPLINK Linker tab

3) Check the 'Suppress COD-File Generation' checkbox


Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\07\02@105817 by Ken Pergola

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Hi Zantos,

If I understand things correctly, it's the COD file that has this path
length limitation, and it is by design and is not a bug from what I remember
reading. Take the above with a grain of salt right now; if I find the thread
that describes why the path length limitation is not a bug I'll do my best
to post it here.



In any event, here's some information from the Microchip forums:

"If you are using MPLAB IDE 6.50 (and higher), you don't need the COD file.
MPLAB IDE 6.50 uses the COFF object file for debugging information. By
default, MPLINK still generates the COD file for backwards compatibility
with pre-6.xx versions of MPLAB IDE and other third-party tools that still
use the COD file format. In summary, if the COFF file was loaded, you
shouldn't see any problems debugging."

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\07\02@111856 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:53 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> It does lead me to another query, however.  How DO people back up?
>
> Windows has gotten so large, and Windows software even larger, that a
> nightly full backup is pretty unrealistic for most of us.  In addition,
> Windows buries so many unrelated things in the same directories, and locks
> so may files, that it isn't really practical, as best I can tell, to backup
> Windows while Windows is running.
>
> Seems like a relatively infrequent full backup, along with a more frequent
> backup of Documents and Settings, is more reasonable.  Of course, you place
> an awful lot of setting information at risk, and it is hard to convince a
> lot of programs to put your data where you want, but I don't see much in the
> way of alternatives.  Or does everyone just use RAID and call it good?

Here's what I do... I have (3) workstations and a server (all Win2K)
running on a 100Mbps network. My server has a firewire hot-swap IDE
drive bay. I use NovaStor's Novaback software to backup all (3)
workstations and server to the removable IDE drive.

I do full backups daily, then swap the IDE drive off-site once a week.
I use a rotation of (4) 120Gb backup drives, each drive will hold a
week's worth of backups. I always have a full week's worth of backups
off-site, no more than a week old. Between my (4) backup drives, I can
always go back at least a month for "oops" type restores also. I also
mirror the data drive on my server to another physical drive in the
server once an hour. This is good for short term recovery of "oops"
stuff, i.e. "I really didn't mean to delete that MS Word file I was
working on..."

IDE drives are cheap backup media and very reliable. The backup job
takes about 2.5 hours to run each day and I have it scheduled to run
starting about 3am, so it completes before I am ready to start work in
the morning.

I also have another removable drive that I keep Ghost disk images on
for each system. Whenever I make a major change (install a new
application, MS update, etc.) I Ghost image the OS partition of the
drive and save it to an IDE HD. I can recover from a bad install or
drive crash in a matter of minutes.

One other thing I do is keep an additional multiboot system
(Win98/Win2K) for testing new applications, shareware, etc. This is
essentially a non-critical test system where any "risky" applications
get tried first before going on my workstations. If I blow up the OS or
another application, not a big deal -- I just restore the OS drive from
the previous disk image and move on.

Anyway, I like my backup strategy since my workstations get backed up
daily and it happens automagically in the wee hours of the morning. All
I need to remember is to swap drives once a week and take it off-site.
One thing I learned long ago is that unless the backup is automatic and
you don't have to mess with swapping media (i.e you *must* have
unattended backup) you simply won't do it.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2004\07\02@120923 by Nigel Orr

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pic microcontroller discussion list <> wrote:
>> or on a network share. (this is what I do)
>
> Not everyone has this luxury. In fact, this is what I do, and the
> shares are on Linux so it's somewhat easier to back up.

What backup software do you use?  I'm looking for something simple that can
span multiple CDs/tapes, not found it yet...

Nigel
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2004\07\02@131225 by zantos

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Just received post back from MC UK Techhelp
z

>Mplab 6.XX was supposed to remove the 62 character limit.
>However the linker still has this limitation.
>Some companies have a set file structure that runs into this problem. Others
its network drives.
>You will need to ensure your file name / path is less than 62 characters.
>Best Regards,
>UK Techhelp




{Original Message removed}

2004\07\02@160011 by Greg Maki

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Zantos wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of zantos
> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 5:03 AM
> To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173
>
>
> MPLAB 6.6 on Windows XP
> Any know why I get a "Error[173]   C:\DOCUMENTS AND
> SETTINGS.............. :
> source file path exceeds 62 characters" when I do a Make on my
> project or where
> the setting is to change the default please?
> z
>

I don't believe there is a setting to change. Here is a quote from the
README.ASM:

(20627) There is a 62 character limit on the absolute source file path.
       This is due to a limitation in the format of the .COD file.


Hope this explains why.

Greg Maki

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2004\07\02@175850 by Philip Pemberton

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In message <001f01c4603d$e3be7d40$090044c0@BrianBoru>
         "John J. McDonough" <@spam@wb8rcrKILLspamspamARRL.NET> wrote:

> Yes, exactly.  I use Norton Ghost, but it's pretty painful.  And I really
> HATE doing my backups with some proprietary thing.  I can be guaranteed that
> in another operating system release or two those old backup DVDs will become
> unreadable because of software incompatibility.
I used to use Ghost (someone gave me a Ghost CD), but I didn't like the idea
of rebooting into DOS just to do a backup. Like you said - who's to say
Symantec (or Norton, whoever) are going to maintain backwards-compatibility
so you can use your old Ghost images on new versions of Ghost?

> Now there are hundreds of files you can't get at.  Zip has the wonderful
> ability to be used on every operating system known to man, and make sense
> out of different file naming limitations.
On my Linux boxen I use tar and bzip2. Shove everything in a tarball, then
bzip2 it. Like ZIP, bzip2 and tar run on almost every platform known to man.
The nice thing is that tar can maintain file data - owners and attributes,
which basically means I don't have to go on a massive chmod/chown run to get
all the permissions set up again.

> Yeah, well, they go on more than one place.  If it's more than a little
> hack, I not only keep sources on a file share, but also in an RCS library.
I use CVS. Speaking of which, the CVS server needs looking at - it's stopped
accepting my logon ID. Probably broke the config during the last reinstall...

> Like zip, RCS works on every OS known to man,
Bet it doesn't work on Acorn MOS (i.e. the BBC Micro) :-P

Later.
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2004\07\02@181549 by David Bearrow
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At 09:08 AM 7/2/04, you wrote:
> > button. It uses software called Retrospect. It even fully backs up Windows
> > while Windows is running allowing you to restore a fully bootable exact
> > image of your backup.
>
>Have you ever actually restored one of those to a virgin drive?  I've seen a
>lot of software CLAIM to do that, but not seen one that actually works on
>NT5+.

Yes, worked perfectly. Maxtor did a good job this time.

Dave

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2004\07\02@193557 by David Duffy

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John J. McDonough wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I have a Debian Linux server box both at work and here at home.

>>Keeping your data separate from your OS and applications is a very
>>important step to making your life a whole lot easier & more efficient.
>>
>>
>
>I absolutely agree, but on Windoze 95 it was really hard, and it's gotten
>harder every release since then.
>
>

Just save/load your data from a different drive will do for most programs.
Ones with integrated databases are more of a problem I'll conceed though.
Of course the application having all its config data in the registry is
a real
pain - how I love apps that use ini files. :-)

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2004\07\03@065820 by Howard Winter

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On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:53 -0400, John J. McDonough
wrote:

> Or does everyone just use RAID and call it good?

NO!!!!

One power supply fault that wallops the +12V or +5V
lines with something unfriendly would take out all the
drives and all the data thereon would be lost.  Unless
you have a lot of money (and even more luck!) to get a
data recovery firm to get it back for you...

An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
even then!

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\07\03@071726 by Russell McMahon

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> An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
> protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
> even then!

Off machine, not in the same room, not in the same building, not in the same
block, not in the same city, not ... .
Not connected live most of the time.
(Obvious, obvious, fire, large fire, volcano*,...)

If you scoff at "large fire" or functional equivalent ask the Japanese, who
had their major financial district crash and not get back for weeks -
phones, power etc. Even my city lost almost all power for several weeks a
few years back, entirely due to human stupidity. (I was the first to notify
the national Civil Defence HQ , at about 2am when it finally went pop. At
the time the man I got out of bed was very very grumpy. He probably
appreciated the warning more latterly - but they never said thankyou :-). )

If you scoff at volcano, ask the Philippinos if they agree with you.
If you live in California ....

And in my city we haven't seen a live one for 800 years - which means the
next one is overdue. And we nestle amongst 100 small volcanic cones. The
last one was 150% larger than all the rest combined. The locals call it
Rangitoto island. Auckland volcanoes are coming more frequently. The next
one is due in the next +/- 400 years. (I live slightly outside the hotspot
zone)(I think). Not many Aucklanders know all this :-).





       RM

I keep my keyest backups in a sock drawer in a city about 70 miles south of
here. If Mt Taupo blows .... :-)

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2004\07\03@093521 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Winter" <RemoveMEHDRWspamTakeThisOuTH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
> protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
> even then!

That has always been my perception, but I wondered if maybe it's just
because I'm an old fart.  I hear a lot of people relying on RAID, but it
certainly doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

I am getting more and more convinced that non-reuseable media is the way to
go as well.  DVDs are getting pretty cheap, and they are quite compact.
Although it doesn't happen often, once in a while I want to grab something
from an old backup, and it's nice to have them.  I store the backup DVDs on
the spindles, rather than in the bulky crystal cases.  I can generally get a
year's backup on 2 or 3 spindles, so it's not a huge price to pay in space
to store them.  Probably not ideal from an archival perspective, but it's
pretty unusual that I want to grab something more than 3 or 4 years old.

--McD

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2004\07\03@094351 by David VanHorn

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At 09:35 AM 7/3/2004 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Howard Winter" <EraseMEHDRWspamH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK>
>Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173
>
>
>> An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
>> protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
>> even then!
>
>That has always been my perception, but I wondered if maybe it's just
>because I'm an old fart.  I hear a lot of people relying on RAID, but it
>certainly doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

Nor should it.
Raid came about when hard drives were failure-prone, as a way of mitigating failures in the drives themselves.

IMHO, it's far more likely today, that the OS will tell the raid controller to pee all over your data, and the controller will cheerfully obliterate all the copies before you can blink..

Removable hard drives are cheap and tremendously fast relative to tape, store tons, and are immune to system failures once removed from the system.  Good idea to transport them off site though.

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2004\07\03@095705 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <RemoveMEdvanhornspam_OUTspamKILLspamCEDAR.NET>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB Error 173


> Removable hard drives are cheap and tremendously
> fast relative to tape, store tons, and are immune to
> system failures once removed from the system.  Good
> idea to transport them off site though.

I've been toying with the idea of loading my file server up with monster
drives and using Backula to get stuff nightly from all the boxes.  Then once
in a while spin the Backula stuff off to DVD.  I'd still need to make a full
backup of the Windoze systems from time to time, but maybe not as
frequently.  Even though I don't get them fully backed up as often as I
would like, it still eats a lot of time.  I actually have a Red Hat box that
has been relieved of almost all it's duties, maybe I should turn that into a
backup server.

Is anyone using Backula to back up Windoze systems?  Is it reasonable?  Is
it as impossible to configure as it sounds?

72/73 de WB8RCR    http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah     QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35

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2004\07\03@123054 by Nate Duehr

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John J. McDonough wrote:

> Is anyone using Backula to back up Windoze systems?  Is it reasonable?  Is
> it as impossible to configure as it sounds?

Hi John,

The "quick and dirty" (but very effective) way to do this would be to
use Samba.  You could either write a script that would teach the Bacula
server to mount the Windows machine's drives to mount points in the
middle of the night, or you could put Samba on the bacula server can
just copy everything with a synchronizer tool from the Windows machines
to the Linux machine regularly and then just backup the Bacula server
per usual.  Either works well.

If you make the Bacula machine an NFS server also, you can use automount
on Unix systems to do the same trick.  Kinda nice to be able to type cp
/path/to/file/to/backup /net/backupserver/backups/machine1 and just have
it go...

Nate Duehr, EraseMEnatespamspamspamBeGonenatetech.com (73 de WY0X)

(Haven't built a Windows server for work or home since 1995.  Haven't
had a server crash due to a software bug since then either.   The Blue
Screen O' Death and "Would you like to send an Error Report to
Microsoft?" don't exist in my world other than at work where the desktop
machine dies regularly running Visio.   GRIN.  I don't say this to start
a flamewar, I just say it because it's true.)

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2004\07\03@161929 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Russell McMahon wrote :

> > An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
> > protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
> > even then!
>
> Off machine, not in the same room, not in the same building,
> not in the same block, not in the same city, not ... .
> Not connected live most of the time.
> (Obvious, obvious, fire, large fire, volcano*,...)

For environmental hazars, might it be water, fire, vulcanos or
911-like stuff, you could just shadow your disks over a distance.
One bank in WTC had a mirror site off-Manhattan, and just asked
there people to go there instead and just continued there
banking operations. No downtime, no data restores and their
clients had access to theres data after some re-routing of the
datacom. Their system managers could actualy see how the
disks located in the WTC fell out of the shadowsets one-by-one...

The same when a bank in Paris had a major fire some years ago.
They had a complete mirror site on the other side of the river.
The data was safe, they just had to gather some desks and PC-
clients (but that was on a service contract, so no big deal).

Both used the builtin shadowing service in the OS (up to
about 150 miles disk shadowing supported with the plain
standard OS "out-of-the box"). No 3-part cludge...

That is how those issues should be handled.

Now, of course you have to *backup* your data anyway, to
protect agains other risks (OS or application errors). The
backup could be run against the shadowed data on the currently
non-operational system to not slow down the main system.

Anyway,
I'm sure they've never seen a "MPLAB Error 173" error either...
:-)

Regards,
Jan-Erik

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2004\07\09@123452 by Howard Winter

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Russell,,

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:16:58 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > An off-machine backup is the only way to properly
> > protect against loss of data, and it's not guaranteed
> > even then!
>
> Off machine, not in the same room, not in the same building, not in the same
> block, not in the same city, not ... .
> Not connected live most of the time.
> (Obvious, obvious, fire, large fire, volcano*,...)

Indeed - one thing I've done for clients in the past is disaster planning, and you have to ask: "How big a
disaster do we plan for?"  It goes from machine failure (or theft!), through loss of use of the office (fire,
flood, power cut), loss of the building and its contents (bigger fire, bomb, building collapse, air crash), to
something city-wide.  You have to decide how far you are going to go.  A firm I used to work for had backups
stored underground, in a former slate-quarry about 60 miles from London.  There was a sort-of pyramid of
backup data, with daily copies kept in the computer-room in a fireproof safe, weeklies moved to another
company site about 5 miles away, and monthlies taken to the quarry.  We never actually needed any more than
the dailies, but other firms I've been involved with have had to resort to using "standby" locations where
equipment is waiting to be used if necessary.  Some incidents (a couple of IRA bombs in the City of London for
example) have resulted in buildings being inaccessible for a number of days, even though they weren't
physically affected, because they were inside a "cordoned-off" area.  If a business relies on things in its
office, this could bring it down.

> If you scoff at "large fire" or functional equivalent ask the Japanese, who
> had their major financial district crash and not get back for weeks -
> phones, power etc.

Quite!

> Even my city lost almost all power for several weeks a
> few years back, entirely due to human stupidity. (I was the first to notify
> the national Civil Defence HQ , at about 2am when it finally went pop. At
> the time the man I got out of bed was very very grumpy. He probably
> appreciated the warning more latterly - but they never said thankyou :-). )

How did that happen then?  Did they run out of change for the meter? :-)

It's not well known that the London Underground system used to have its own electricity generating station
(actually two, the second was a reserve to add extra capacity when it was needed).  Someone who was presumbly
an accountant decided that was too expensive, so they decommissioned them and they now rely on the National
Grid.  So a power cut in London now paralises the transport system that almost everyone uses, as well as the
other effects.  We have a saying for this:  "Penny wise, pound foolish"!

> If you scoff at volcano, ask the Philippinos if they agree with you.
> If you live in California ....
>
> And in my city we haven't seen a live one for 800 years - which means the
> next one is overdue. And we nestle amongst 100 small volcanic cones. The
> last one was 150% larger than all the rest combined. The locals call it
> Rangitoto island. Auckland volcanoes are coming more frequently. The next
> one is due in the next +/- 400 years. (I live slightly outside the hotspot
> zone)(I think). Not many Aucklanders know all this :-).

Not many Aucklanders know where you live?  :-)

> I keep my keyest backups in a sock drawer in a city about 70 miles south of here.

That's funny - I keep a spare pair of socks in my Laptop case!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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