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'[PIC:] ICSP Problem, probably stupidity'
2004\06\11@130712 by Matthew Brush

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Hello all,

I'm implementing ICSP for the first time in my current design which uses a PIC16F877.  I have the circuit setup according to my programmers documentation.  I am getting an error when programming:

Write Error at: 0000
Wrote: 3000
Read: 3FFF

Has anybody had this problem?  I have PGD & PGC connected directly to my programming with no "isolation" circuit in place because there is nothing to isolate from ... nothing is connected to these pins.  Do they need to have some certain level of impedance or something?  Is an oscillator required for ICSP (I haven't put one in the circuit yet)?

Sorry if this info is vague, I just wanted to see if this is a common problem, and I'm just seeking a quick fix rather than spending hours upon hours of reading to find the answer (which I will do if this isn't a common problem).

Thanks so much in advance.  Peace

MJ Brush

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2004\06\11@135144 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Sorry if this info is vague, I just wanted to see if this is
> a common problem, and I'm just seeking a quick fix rather
> than spending hours upon hours of reading to find the answer
> (which I will do if this isn't a common problem).

http://www.voti.nl/blink shows ICSP circuits for most flash PICs. No, an
xtal is not needed.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@140634 by Matthew Brush

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> http://www.voti.nl/blink shows ICSP circuits for
> most flash PICs. No, an
> xtal is not needed.

Sweet, that's almost exactly how I have my circuit
with the exception of that 1n4004 diode.  What is it
for?  I notice it's not in the breadboard picture?

http://www.voti.nl/blink/index_1.html#16F871

BTW.  Awesome website!  Very useful, I'd been there
many times even before I subscribed to the piclist.

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2004\06\11@143921 by Anthony Toft

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> http://www.voti.nl/blink shows ICSP circuits for most flash PICs. No, an
> xtal is not needed.

Thanks for making all this information available, I am thinking of building me
a wisp628, I guess it won't fit in a 627 (which I have an 'a' version of)  will
it work using a 628a?

Can carriers be made for 'extra-circuit' programming? I have one project that
doesn't have the room for an ICSP header.


Anthony

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2004\06\11@144919 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

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pic microcontroller discussion list wrote:
>> http://www.voti.nl/blink shows ICSP circuits for
>> most flash PICs. No, an
>> xtal is not needed.
>
> Sweet, that's almost exactly how I have my circuit
> with the exception of that 1n4004 diode.  What is it
> for?  I notice it's not in the breadboard picture?
>
> http://www.voti.nl/blink/index_1.html#16F871
>

your original message mentioned PGC and PGD being
connected, but nothing is said about /MCLR and PGM.

I assume you have /MCLR connected to the programmer
and isolated from Vdd. IIRC, on the '877 you should
ground PGM (low-voltage programming) if you are not
using it. Wouter's diagram shows PGM connected to his
programmer.

i just checked http://www.piclist.com and there is a portion
of that page:

<quoted>
When these parts a blank (like when new) or any other time the when the LVP
config bit is programmed as a '1' the state of RB3 becomes an issue. It must
NOT be tied high as VDD rises or unpredictable results occur. I could not
get any satisfaction trying to read or program a part in this condition.
Exactly why I cannot say. It appears that the chips cannot enter either the
low or high voltage programming state. This condition is not documented in
the programming specs so we are left to wonder.

If RB3 is low there is no problem.
<end quote>

there's more, but it relates to the 16F87x parts.


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2004\06\11@151225 by Matthew Brush

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> your original message mentioned PGC and PGD being
> connected, but nothing is said about /MCLR and PGM.

Sorry, let me clarify.

Vpp/MCLR is tied to Vdd with a 100k resistor and a
diode in series to block the 12v from getting at the
5v (so to speak).

There is no PGM pin on my programmer, so I just hooked
it to GND/Vss.

It seems like it's writing fine, but gets an error
when verifying (reading) I think.  Initially I
suspected it was noise or something messing up the
PGD&PGC lines, that's why I wondered about maybe
pulling them two to Vdd.

The part was brand new when I installed it if that
matters.

Thanks for any other suggestions anyone has.


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2004\06\11@152018 by Robert B.

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I've had some pretty crazy problems with ICSP and the 877.  I never figured
out what caused it, but probably it was due to the wirewrap wire I used to
build the circuit with.  I found that a 12pf capacitor on the clock line to
ground fixed the problem (or a scope probe ... ).  The same problem occurred
with several different 877 chips in different configurations, and invariably
a little extra capacitance was needed.  Why?  No clue.  But it might be
worth a try.  I've not had the same problem with any other chips.


{Original Message removed}

2004\06\11@153022 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I assume you have /MCLR connected to the programmer
> and isolated from Vdd. IIRC, on the '877 you should
> ground PGM (low-voltage programming) if you are not
> using it. Wouter's diagram shows PGM connected to his
> programmer.

Wisp628 has a dedicated pin that is pulled low during programming-entry.
You can use it for this purpose, or arrange for your target circuit
itself to pull LVP low. But better not let it float, that will cause
occasional problems (which is much worse than causing problems every
time).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@153023 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Thanks for making all this information available, I am
> thinking of building me
> a wisp628, I guess it won't fit in a 627 (which I have an 'a'
> version of)  will
> it work using a 628a?

Current firmware is alomost 2048 instructions, so a 627 is out of the
question. A 628A is OK, that is what I currently ship with the kits.

> Can carriers be made for 'extra-circuit' programming? I have
> one project that doesn't have the room for an ICSP header.

DIP clip! see http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/pics/t-clip-big.jpg
Even SOIC clips exist.

Or for DIPs: take a tower of machined sockets, solder the ICSP wires to
one of socket's pins. Or use a wire-wrap socket for a similar setup.

Another aproach: I have a PCB that accomodates a 64-pin PIC, with the
pins that correcspond to a 40-pin PIC brough to a 40-pin socket. Use a
bandcable and two DIP connectors to connect to a target. The extra PIC
pins are available for connecting debug aids (LCD, RS232). The board has
Wisp628 and ICD2 connectors for ICSP. The PCB will be in the shop (some
day, when I have time to make an entry for it...).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@153232 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Sweet, that's almost exactly how I have my circuit
> with the exception of that 1n4004 diode.  What is it
> for?  I notice it's not in the breadboard picture?

I call it the fool's diode. Is that enough to explain its function?

You don't see it on most pictures because it is a 'fixed' part of all my
breadboards. On http://www.voti.nl/blink/pics/bb-630-big.jpg you can
glimpse it beneath the yellow LED.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@162128 by Matthew Brush

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> I found that a 12pf
> capacitor on the clock line to
> ground fixed the problem (or a scope probe ... ).

Nope ... although I am using wire-wrap wire in this
circuit.  I tried several different capacitors with no
success ... although it did manage to incorrectly read
back a different value at 0000h.  Instead of 3FFFF it
reported 3F00.

I think it might be a noise issue though.  I shall
continue to try and fix this.  Hopefully I don't fry
this chip cuz it's soldered directly into my prototype
board and it would be a huge pain to replace it.  I
really need to get some provisions like 40 pin IC
sockets from digikey.

If anyone can think of anything else, it would be much
appreciated.

Thanks, Peace

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2004\06\11@162335 by Matthew Brush

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> I call it the fool's diode. Is that enough to
> explain its function?

Nope

Me fool ...



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2004\06\11@163531 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

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pic microcontroller discussion list wrote:
>> I call it the fool's diode. Is that enough to
>> explain its function?
>
> Nope
>
> Me fool ...
>

it's for reverse-polarity protection. When power and
ground are applied correctly, the diode is reverse
biased and not conducting.

when power and ground are reversed, the diode is
forward biased and conducts; the voltage is limited
to one forward diode drop (varies with diode, current
and temperature, but you usually assume 0.7V for a
rough estimate)

a problem occurs if the power supply can supply more
current than the diode can handle, then something will
start to smoke.

Ideally a fuse is added. The idea is that if the
diode conducts, it blows the fuse before anything
else is damaged.


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2004\06\11@163532 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > I call it the fool's diode. Is that enough to
> > explain its function?
> Nope
> Me fool ...

No smiley, so just in case you are serious: the diode shorts the power
supply if I accidentally connect it backwards. I only use power supplies
that are current-limited to ~ 1A, don't try this with a PC SPSU unless
you are in for pyrotechnics.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@164838 by Matthew Brush

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> No smiley, so just in case you are serious: the
> diode shorts the power
> supply if I accidentally connect it backwards. I

Ya, I was serious ... hehe ... never used a diode like
that ... it's only me using my circuits and I'm always
careful about not reversing polarity.

> only use power supplies
> that are current-limited to ~ 1A, don't try this
> with a PC SPSU unless
> you are in for pyrotechnics.

Tell me about it!  I can short the +5v and Ground
leads together on my PC PSU and it just keeps hauling
away getting (obviously) very hot.  No sparks yet, but
I shorted the leads on my metal workbench before and
the wire was in a puddle on the ground ... hehehe.



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2004\06\11@165046 by Anthony Toft

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> Wisp628 has a dedicated pin that is pulled low during programming-entry.
> You can use it for this purpose, or arrange for your target circuit
> itself to pull LVP low. But better not let it float, that will cause

Does this mean that LVP should be pulled low during programming?
Something my current programmer _doesn't_ do.

Could this be the cause of my very erratic programming success?


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2004\06\11@170953 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > Wisp628 has a dedicated pin that is pulled low during
> programming-entry.
> > You can use it for this purpose, or arrange for your target circuit
> > itself to pull LVP low. But better not let it float, that will cause
>
> Does this mean that LVP should be pulled low during programming?
> Something my current programmer _doesn't_ do.
>
> Could this be the cause of my very erratic programming success?

'could'? defintely. either you or your programmer should do this.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@170954 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Ya, I was serious ... hehe ... never used a diode like
> that ... it's only me using my circuits and I'm always
> careful about not reversing polarity.

I know myself, I am defintely not carefull. In fact I have 3-pin
connectors with both +/G/+ and G/+/G arrangemnet. With fools diodes
everywhere I just try both :)

{Quote hidden}

Shorting a modest current (a few Amps) will not produce much heat (zero
ohms = no voltage = no power). If you would instead connect a small
resistor (both physically small and small resistance) things will likely
be different.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\11@192001 by Anthony Toft

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> 'could'? defintely. either you or your programmer should do this.

Even for an HVP only programmer?
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2004\06\11@192831 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Toft" <toftatspamKILLspamCOWSHED.8M.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC:] ICSP Problem, probably stupidity


> > 'could'? defintely. either you or your programmer should do this.
>
> Even for an HVP only programmer?

Well, not if you're only programming HVP only parts. (are there any of those
left besides the 83/84?)  But if that line dances around and the part has
LVP capability, un-good things happen.  And if the pin is open, it's gonna
dance around.  Them high impedance inputs are like that.

--McD

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2004\06\11@203338 by Anthony Toft

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> left besides the 83/84?)  But if that line dances around and the part has
> LVP capability, un-good things happen.  And if the pin is open, it's gonna
> dance around.  Them high impedance inputs are like that.


Thanks for that snippit, my HVP tait style programmer didn't tie it
anywhere and not knowing any better, I didn't do anything with it. I
will check that out...
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2004\06\11@210528 by Anthony Toft

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Wouter,

You don't specify on the site what the requirements of the target power
supply are, will it run using 78l05's for example? You also don't
mention the 16F62xA chips, I have 4 of them I'd like to be able to
use...

I am really thinking of brewing myself a Wisp628.
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2004\06\11@222208 by M. Adam Davis

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Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>Shorting a modest current (a few Amps) will not produce much heat (zero
>ohms = no voltage = no power). If you would instead connect a small
>resistor (both physically small and small resistance) things will likely
>be different.
>
>
>
While the diode doesn't have an 'ohm' measurement, it still drops
voltage, and therefore consumes power.

A typical diode with a forward drop of 1.1V when drawing 1A will
dissipate 1.1W of power.  The 1n4004 has this voltage drop and is rated,
when properly mounted, to withstand 3W of current.  So it won't get very
hot very quickly.


However, on a PC power supply which can supply over 30A at 5V you'll be
dissipating 33W - Please note that most cheap soldering irons are only
15 and 20 Watts.

When combined with a current limited powersupply this is certianly a
good solution to an all too typical problem.

-Adam

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2004\06\12@012201 by Matthew Brush

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So no one has had the error during programming that
while writing at 0000 it doesn't verify the proper
value?

I'm using ProgPic2 and the actual error is:
Write Error at: 0000
Wrote: 3000
Read: 3FFFF

I tried erasing the device and it seems to be able to
read from the device and write data memory.

When I read the data it is all FF probably because I
haven't successfully programmed the F877 yet.

It seems like it should be a relatively common error,
I've seen many posts regarding this on Google Groups,
but none of them were "adequately" resolved.

I've never had problems with my programmer before with
the sockets on the device, but I'm using ICSP
connector for this because it's a F877 and my
programmer won't fit this.

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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2004\06\12@014407 by Matthew Brush

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Just to clarify my setup:

I have a 100k pullup on mclr to 5v and a diode to
block the Vpp from entering supply like this:
[+5v] ---[100k]- ----->|---- [MCLEAR]

I don't have any pullups on PGD and PGC but I tried
using some 4k7 pullups to no avail.  I also tried a
small cap from PGC to GND which sometimes gave a
slightly different error, but more or less the same.
PGM is tied to ground during programming.  PGC and PGD
aren't connecting to anything in the target circuit.

My ICSP cables are about a foot long or so.

On the target circuit, there is a LM7805 which
normally provides power to circuit.  I have a 0.01uF
cap near the pic, 47uF on the 7805 input, and a 1uF
and 100uF cap declouping other (not connected yet)
cicruitry.

I have tried power the target pic with my programmer
and with it's normal power supply (by disconnecting
the supply lines from the ICSP connector).

I have a suspicion that the problem is noise maybe,
but I have no real means of testing this.  Is there
anything wrong with the above setup, or is there some
way to reduce noise on all the ICSP, such as a series
resistor and cap to ground or something?

Thanks again!  Peace


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2004\06\12@023552 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > 'could'? defintely. either you or your programmer should do this.
>
> Even for an HVP only programmer?

Yes

And don't tell me "I have HVP-ed a PIC without pulling LVP low and I had
no problem". Like a lot of things it is not *guaranteed* to cause a
problem, just a chance that is too high to ignore.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\12@024758 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> You don't specify on the site what the requirements of the
> target power
> supply are, will it run using 78l05's for example? You also don't
> mention the 16F62xA chips, I have 4 of them I'd like to be able to
> use...

7805 or 78L05 is fine, and the 62xA chips are supported. A 628, 628A or
648A will do as Wisp628-PIC.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\12@032155 by hilip Stortz

picon face
along the same lines, you can sometimes use a bridge rectifier.  i did
this once on a CB radio that the user frequently moved between vehicles
and had reverse connected before.  surprisingly it didn't drop the
output power significantly which was my main concern, and it kept him
from blowing up any more radios.

"Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\12@034100 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> along the same lines, you can sometimes use a bridge rectifier.

Sometimes, but not for me. I often take a few boards and connect them
together to make a prototype. Every board must have its fools diode,
because I am a fool and I will occasionally make the wrong connections
between the boards.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\06\12@081540 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Brush" <@spam@matthewbrushKILLspamspamYAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: [PIC:] ICSP Problem, probably stupidity


> So no one has had the error during programming that
> while writing at 0000 it doesn't verify the proper
> value?
>
> I'm using ProgPic2 and the actual error is:
> Write Error at: 0000
> Wrote: 3000
> Read: 3FFFF

Unfortunately, this seems to be the most common response to ANY problem.  I
have seen that effect when I tried to program an 877A with software that
only supports the 877, and when I have forgotten to apply power to the
programmer.  So the specific error isn't all that helpful.

> connector for this because it's a F877 and my

It IS and 877 and not an 877A, is that correct?

72/73 de WB8RCR    http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah     QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35

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2004\06\12@142603 by Matthew Brush

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> It IS and 877 and not an 877A, is that correct?

No, it's not ... sorry I'm using a PIC16F877A that
Microchip just send me.

No one has any comments about my setup (from my
previous post).  I think it would be beneficial for
the list to hear suggestions on fixing ICSP problems
since I couldn't find anything helpful in the archive
or on google groups.

I think it might be time to write software for the
programmer hardware I've already built and just use
that.  At least I'll know what's going on more.

Thanks for the couple suggestions.  Peace

=====
MJ Brush
LeftClick.ca Internet Media Services
mbrush@[NOSPAM]leftclick.ca

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