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'[PIC:] ICD2 : how I have been able to survive with'
2004\07\20@135848 by Joan Ilari

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Hi, Piclisters,

Some days ago I received the ICD2 unit I bought through Internet. After some
hardware problems in my application's hardware, I am enthusiastic with ICD2
and I would like to share with all of you my enthusiasm about using an ICD2
unit for Pic programming.

1- ICD2 is a great tool. It is to software test what a digital scope can
be for hardware test. It gives you a clear picture of what is going on in a
program. You can stop code execution wherever you want and see the contents
of registers and memory. While it does not reach your breakpoint, the
program runs in real time.

2- ICD2 + MPLAB saves you a lot of time when physically programming Pics:

- you do not have to unplug anything from your prototype to program the
  Pic,

- you assemble(or compile), link, download and run your program by just
  3 mouse clicks.

- MPLAB + ICD2 are much faster programming Pics than the software I have
  used up to date (ICProg)

This means that you can go from the last modification in your program to
running the new code in a few seconds (yes, seconds !)

3- ICD2 saves a lot of time when programming your application because it
allows to program your full code in one step. Without it, the only
chance to program a somewhat complex application is to start by a simple
program, check that it works, add new features, check that they work,
etc... otherwise all the bugs together make the debugging task very, very
complex. With ICD2 you can write all the code in one step, and test it
line by line.

4- It is out of question that ICD2 saves you a lot of time when debugging.
Who has not filled its code of pin setting/resetting to try to know what
is happening when things go wrong and you are completely lost ?

5- ICD2s are not so expensive if you consider that:

 - you don't need to buy a Pic programmer,
 - there are clones cheaper than Microchip version, (Olimex 89$, Mcu 55?
   without USB interface)
 - your time (even if it is your free time) has some value.

My experience with ICD2 is reduced up to now to 18F452 Pics and I don't
know if with other CPUs it exhibits some kind of problem. The resources
ICD2 occupies from your CPU to work (1 stack level, some memory...)
do not bother me at all for the projects I work with.

In brief, I think that anyone programming Pics should consider seriously
to buy an ICD2 unit to speed up the task of programming and debugging
their code.

Cheers

  Joan Ilari

  Barcelona (Spain)

PS It is out of question that I have nothing to do with any ICD2 seller,
and blah, blah blah,

================================================================
 ... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
 on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
 in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
 lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...

                                    -Blade Runner -
================================================================


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2004\07\20@141751 by Bob Blick

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> In brief, I think that anyone programming Pics should consider seriously
> to buy an ICD2 unit to speed up the task of programming and debugging
> their code.

I've found the biggest drawback to be the loss of the pins the ICD uses.
Working around them, or designing without the use of those pins is a big
loss.

For that reason I don't use an ICD very often.

However, I always use a bootloader. Programming time is shorter, and you
can debug through the serial port.

Programming in C helps, too, because your programs usually work, at least
to some extent, enough to debug as a whole.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2004\07\20@145846 by Joan Ilari

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> I've found the biggest drawback to be the loss of the pins
> the ICD uses.
> Working around them, or designing without the use of those
> pins is a big loss.
>
> For that reason I don't use an ICD very often.

You are right :
4 pins (two of them used for ICSP).
For 18F452 4/34 pins = 12%.

But you can always try to keep the handling of these pins out
of your code and add it later, without ICD2 after debugging the
rest of the program ...

> However, I always use a bootloader. Programming time is
> shorter, and you can debug through the serial port.
>

Which bootloader are you using ? I spent some time looking for one
with debugging capabilities, buy I failed miserably.

BTW, I understand that using the bootloader you lose integration with
Mplab ... Since you have tried ICD, you know that ICD + MPlab make
a very good team.

> Programming in C helps, too, because your programs usually
> work, at least to some extent, enough to debug as a whole.

I agree with you

Cheers

  Joan Ilari

  Barcelona (Spain)

================================================================
 ... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
 on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
 in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
 lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...

                                    -Blade Runner -
================================================================

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2004\07\20@171646 by Bob Blick

face picon face
> Which bootloader are you using ? I spent some time looking for one
> with debugging capabilities, buy I failed miserably.

I'm using the 16F series PICs and use the PIC Downloader from http://www.ehl.cz/pic

Shane Tolmie has done work on the same lines and for other parts, his site
is http://www.microchipc.com

The bootloader does not have any debugging built in, but it's easy enough
to make a small task that allows command/debug/register dumps to/from the
serial port. Actually the stuff I have done might be of interest, I should
polish it up and post it.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2004\07\29@013608 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Some days ago I received the ICD2 unit I bought through
> Internet. After some
> hardware problems in my application's hardware, I am
> enthusiastic with ICD2
> and I would like to share with all of you my enthusiasm about
> using an ICD2
> unit for Pic programming.

Note that most of the advantages you mention are the result of switching
from a slow ex-circuit programmer to a fast in-circuit programmer. IMHO
the ICD2 is a good choice when you have the money to spend, but there
are cheaper in-circuit programmers that offer most of the advantages for
a (much) lower price.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\29@135916 by Joan Ilari

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>
> > Some days ago I received the ICD2 unit I bought through Internet.
> > After some hardware problems in my application's hardware, I am
> > enthusiastic with ICD2 and I would like to share with all of you my
> > enthusiasm about using an ICD2 unit for Pic programming.
>
> Note that most of the advantages you mention are the result
> of switching from a slow ex-circuit programmer to a fast
> in-circuit programmer. IMHO the ICD2 is a good choice when
> you have the money to spend, but there are cheaper in-circuit
> programmers that offer most of the advantages for a (much)
> lower price.
>

Which ones allow debugging and seamless integration with Mplab IDE ?
I started with an off-circuit programmer and switched later to an
in-circuit one. With this one I had to remove the in-circuit programming
connector after downloading my program because its power line interfered
with my prototype. It was a real nuisance.
Now I program, download and execute without having to touch at anything
in my prototype board.

Perhaps I am missing something .... ;-)

Cheers


  Joan Ilari

  Barcelona (Spain)

================================================================
 ... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
 on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
 in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
 lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...

                                    -Blade Runner -
================================================================

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2004\07\29@140331 by Mauricio Jancic

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What about bootloaders...

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos
Microchip Consultant Program Member
(54) 11-4542-3519
infospamKILLspamjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar


>>{Original Message removed}

2004\07\29@144241 by Joan Ilari

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>
> What about bootloaders...
>

1- Do you know any bootloader integrated with MpLab ? As far I know, with
bootloaders you have to assemble/compile your program and generate the hex
file (probably with Mplab), then SWITCH to bootloader downloader, select the
hex file and download it. Then run the program (probably by resetting your
Pic and waiting some time) and pray for not leaving any bug in your program.
This leads to the following point :

2- Do you know any bootloader with debugging facilities ?



{Quote hidden}

  Joan Ilari

  Barcelona (Spain)

================================================================
 ... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
 on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
 in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
 lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...

                                    -Blade Runner -
================================================================

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2004\07\29@145450 by Mauricio Jancic

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Ok ok... Don't get like that...

I also want an ICD... But I've managed many things with the bootloader.

Anyway I don't like editing in MPLAB. I use Ultraedit, then switch to MPLAB,
compile, and the switch to bootloader... I know, it's a pain in the ... But
it's much better that using the PICstart PLUS and damaging all the
chips...(not to tell you how much time I've saved...)

Bye

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos
Microchip Consultant Program Member
(54) 11-4542-3519
EraseMEinfospam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar


>>{Original Message removed}

2004\07\29@151221 by Stef Mientki

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Mauricio Jancic wrote:

>Ok ok... Don't get like that...
>
>I also want an ICD... But I've managed many things with the bootloader.
>
>Anyway I don't like editing in MPLAB. I use Ultraedit, then switch to MPLAB,
>compile, and the switch to bootloader... I know, it's a pain in the ... But
>it's much better that using the PICstart PLUS and damaging all the
>chips...(not to tell you how much time I've saved...)
>
>
>
I use a bootloader and something different then ultaedit:
 with just one button from the editor:  compile+reset+upload+reset+debug
I think it can be done in ultraedit too !!
Stef Mientki

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2004\07\29@160244 by Joan Ilari

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>
> Ok ok... Don't get like that...
>

Sorry. It is my enthusiasm which pours ... ;-)

> I also want an ICD... But I've managed many things with the
> bootloader.

Sure. It is a good tool. And there is no technical reason
for not existing bootloaders with debugging capacity. I started
to program one but I decided that what I really want is to
develop my prototypes, and to do it as fast as possible because
my free time is very scarce ....

> Anyway I don't like editing in MPLAB. I use Ultraedit, then
> switch to MPLAB, compile, and the switch to bootloader... I
> know, it's a pain in the ... But it's much better that using
> the PICstart PLUS and damaging all the chips...(not to tell
> you how much time I've saved...)

Too complicated for me :-)

> Bye
>
> Mauricio Jancic
> Janso Desarrollos
> Microchip Consultant Program Member
> (54) 11-4542-3519
> @spam@infoKILLspamspamjanso.com.ar
> http://www.janso.com.ar
>
>
> >>{Original Message removed}

2004\07\29@162356 by Patrick J

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> > know, it's a pain in the ... But it's much better that using
> > the PICstart PLUS and damaging all the chips...(not to tell
> > you how much time I've saved...)

huh, damaging all PICs ???

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2004\07\29@170257 by Mauricio Jancic

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It's an expression... I use a bunch of pics for development and their pins
eventually get damaged because of the insert-extract cicle... But not
ALLLLLL

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos
Microchip Consultant Program Member
(54) 11-4542-3519
RemoveMEinfoTakeThisOuTspamjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar


>>{Original Message removed}

2004\07\29@172828 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Anyway I don't like editing in MPLAB. I use Ultraedit, then
> switch to MPLAB,
> compile, and the switch to bootloader... I know, it's a pain
> in the ... But
> it's much better that using the PICstart PLUS and damaging all the
> chips...(not to tell you how much time I've saved...)

You could use the command-line assembler MPASM

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\29@172829 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> 1- Do you know any bootloader integrated with MpLab ? As far
> I know, with
> bootloaders you have to assemble/compile your program and
> generate the hex
> file (probably with Mplab), then SWITCH to bootloader
> downloader, select the
> hex file and download it. Then run the program (probably by
> resetting your
> Pic and waiting some time) and pray for not leaving any bug
> in your program.
> This leads to the following point :

With a well-designed bootloader (or programmer) this is all integrated
into one click of a button, or cursor-up/return if you use the command
line.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\29@172830 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > Note that most of the advantages you mention are the result
> > of switching from a slow ex-circuit programmer to a fast
> > in-circuit programmer.
>
> Which ones allow debugging and seamless integration with Mplab IDE ?

I said *most* :)

> I started with an off-circuit programmer and switched later to an
> in-circuit one. With this one I had to remove the in-circuit
> programming connector after downloading my program because
> its power line interfered with my prototype. It was a real nuisance.

I agree. You should have used a different one :)

> Now I program, download and execute without having to touch
> at anything in my prototype board.

So do I. I have an ICD2 around somewhere, but I rarely use it.

> Perhaps I am missing something .... ;-)

You are down some bucks but you do have in-circuit debugging.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\29@173701 by Bob Barr

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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:02:04 -0300, Mauricio Jancic wrote:

>It's an expression... I use a bunch of pics for development and their pins
>eventually get damaged because of the insert-extract cicle... But not
>ALLLLLL
>

You might want to try protecting your development chips by mounting
the PICs in machine pin sockets. If a socket's pin gets damaged, you
can replace the socket cheaper than you can replace the PIC. (The
socket pins are more rugged and less likely to be damaged as well.)


Regards, Bob

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2004\07\29@174909 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> It's an expression... I use a bunch of pics for development
> and their pins
> eventually get damaged because of the insert-extract cicle...

I guess you missed my site completely. No-one else told you how to use
round-pin IC sockets as pin savers?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\30@042854 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Mauricio Jancic wrote :

> Anyway I don't like editing in MPLAB. I use Ultraedit, then
> switch to MPLAB, compile, and the switch to bootloader...

Why *switch* tools ?

Why not just integerate it all using the builtin user
defined commands in UE ?

I'm running UE together with Olin's development
enviroment , the MPLAB command line tools and
Wouters Wisp628. Using a  full edit/compile/flash/test
cycle without ever leaving the UE environment...

Jan-Erik.

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