Post by thread:[PIC:] Beginner Question

I'm new to this PIC stuff. I have programmed other chips, like FPGA and HC611, but I was wondering what if i could get a suggestion of a easy to build and use PIC Programming solution (Software & Hardware). It would be very helpful. I have listed the specs for the programmer Needs to work on XP Professional or Linux (prefer XP Pro) I would like it to program 16F and 18F if possible. It needs to be cheap That is all I can think of for specs, but if there any other questions just ask. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Needs to work on XP Professional or Linux (prefer XP Pro) > I would like it to program 16F and 18F if possible. > It needs to be cheap You forgot to mention your time-versus-money ratio, which is another way of specifying what you consider cheap. Anyway, I think my Wisp268 is a good candidate. See http://www.voti.nl/shop. Available as build module, kit, programmed PIC only, or you can do it all yourself. Software runs on Windows and Linux. And when you visit my site, do read http://www.voti.nl/swp And maybe http://www.voti.nl/dwarf is interesting too. If Wisp628 is still too expensive do check http://www.ic-prog.com, maybe one of the hardware circuits supported by that software will work for you. But it will likely take (much) more time to get it working (and it will never work on Linux). But it will cost you next to nothing in money. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

I started with Wisp 628, http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/index.html , which is created and sold in kit form by Wouter van Ooijen, from this list. It's a compact ICSP programmer, which is what you want. A separate "chip out" programmer is irritating for development work. The programming software is Xwisp, written by Wouter, and it's free, and works on more platforms than you'd care to shake a stick at (because it's python based). It certainly works on XP- that is what I use. All in all, I'm very happy with it, and its very cheap too. Many people on this list, particularly the hobbyist types, will strongly advocate this programmer. Jon > {Original Message removed}

>I'm new to this PIC stuff. Welcome! >Needs to work on XP Professional or Linux (prefer XP Pro) >I would like it to program 16F and 18F if possible. >It needs to be cheap Further definition of "cheap" might be useful here, as well as some idea of what you're willing to put up with. My recommendations might run something like this: ICD2+MPLAB: Microchip supported all around, works as a programmer and an in-circuit debugger. Cost: $159 from Digikey. Warp13a+MPLAB+Engage: What I use now; plays very well with MPLab, and has generally been pretty user friendly and powerful. Also does ICSP, but no debug. Cost: ~$100 Wisp628+MPLAB+Wouter-ware: I've heard nothing but glowing reviews about this, and I've been thinking about making/buying one for a friend who's thinking about PICs as a hobby. I'm a little hesitant to dive into the Python scripting, but sooner or later I'm sure I'll have to. Cost: Less than $40 assembled from Wouter's webshop, or less, since he's been kind enough to post details for making your own on his webpage. In order of preference, just slide down until you hit your desired cost. Mike H. _________________________________________________________________ Our best dial-up offer is back. Get MSN Dial-up Internet Service for 6 months @ $9.95/month now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> I'm new to this PIC stuff. I have programmed other chips, like FPGA and > HC611, but I was wondering what if i could get a suggestion of a easy to > build and use PIC Programming solution (Software & Hardware). It would > be very helpful. I have listed the specs for the programmer > > > Needs to work on XP Professional or Linux (prefer XP Pro) > I would like it to program 16F and 18F if possible. > It needs to be cheap > > That is all I can think of for specs, but if there any other questions > just ask. > Well, I use and recommend a bootloader whenever possible. There are some free ones available. Bootloader is cheap, easy, and best of all FAST. Granted it doesn't work for all PICs, the 18F series and the 16F87x have no problems with it though. But you still need a programmer to initially load the bootloader software. I use an Olimex PIC-PG2C. It uses the serial port in a non-standard way, so you may have some issues with XP (but I've read other have used it without problems) at about $13 US it's hard to go wrong. I wouldn't use it as an everyday programmer, but you just need to use it once (per chip) to load a bootloader. -Denny -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> In order of preference, just slide down until you hit your > desired cost. Nice list! At the bottom end, add the various circuits supported by ic-prog. At the top end, add professional varying-vcc programmers, and various ICE's. As alternative consider a bootloader as first step (especially, maybe only, when you are not yet sure whether you will ever use more than one PIC). I offer a complete board that makes an easy start http://www.voti.nl/dwarf/doc/DB016.pdf. There are numerous alternatives to this in the higher-prices category, including boards from Microchip that also contain various peripherals on-board. An maybe the piclist-starter-kit will be created any time soon? ;) Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Well, I use and recommend a bootloader whenever possible. But there are disadvantages too, like not being able to change certain configuration fuses bits, and having to surerender some resources (pins, code space) to the bootloader. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, George Rosier wrote: > Thanks for all the information. To answer the question on what I ment by > 'cheap', I mean money wise. > > Geogrge > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. Yes, but what is "cheap" money wise for you? Free, $5, $20, $150? Also I'd like to second the earlier suggestions of using a bootloader. My favorite for 16F87x series was Romzap - but it doesn't appear to be around anymore - anyone know what happened to it? I use the bootloader at microchipc.com now for 18F2X2 work (they also have a 16F87x bootloader). -Matt -- There are 10 types of people in the world..those that understand binary and those that don't. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Thanks for all the information. To answer the question on > what I ment by > 'cheap', I mean money wise. That's the qualitative answer, we were asking for a quantitive answer, something like 'I am willing to spend 8 hours to save US$ 10 in expenses'. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Okay I understand now, well I think i'm just going to go with the Wisp programmer. Thanks for all the other suggestions. George Wouter van Ooijen wrote: {Quote hidden}>>Thanks for all the information. To answer the question on >>what I ment by >>'cheap', I mean money wise. >> >> > >That's the qualitative answer, we were asking for a quantitive answer, >something like 'I am willing to spend 8 hours to save US$ 10 in >expenses'. > >Wouter van Ooijen > >-- ------------------------------------------- >Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl >consultancy, development, PICmicro products > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different >ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Mike Hord wrote: > Wisp628+MPLAB+Wouter-ware: I've heard nothing but > glowing reviews about this, and I've been thinking about > making/buying one for a friend who's thinking about PICs > as a hobby. Agree... > I'm a little hesitant to dive into the Python > scripting, but sooner or later I'm sure I'll have to. Definitly *not* to use the Wisp628 ! It's just a couple install kits to run, you never realy have to "see" the python code as such. But maybe you'd like to learn and use Python for other reasons, I don't know, but I don't think people should think it's something the *have* to learn to use the Wisp628. Jan-Erik. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Denny Esterline [and others] wrote : > Well, I use and recommend a bootloader whenever possible. Now, are bootloaders realy the best "entry-point" to PICs ? Doesn't the bootloader itself put some (even if minor) limitations on both the hardware and the software ? IMHO, bootloaders *do* have a clear use in installed systems to make updates easier, but for general/hobby development, it's easier to run without it, I think. Easier to use the dev tools "out-of-the-box" and to implement code examples you've found somewhere. Jan-Erik. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote: > Denny Esterline [and others] wrote : > > > Well, I use and recommend a bootloader whenever possible. > > Now, are bootloaders realy the best "entry-point" to PICs ? > Doesn't the bootloader itself put some (even if minor) > limitations on both the hardware and the software ? > > IMHO, bootloaders *do* have a clear use in installed systems > to make updates easier, but for general/hobby development, it's > easier to run without it, I think. Easier to use the dev tools > "out-of-the-box" and to implement code examples you've found > somewhere. > > Jan-Erik. Well you still need a programmer, regardless of whether you choose to use a boot loader and there have been some great suggestions made. As far as a the bootloader goes, as a hobbiest - I would hate to be without it. The first time I used a boot loader, was the last time I used my programmer (other than occasional use - like programming in the bootloader). I just want to make sure people know that many of the older limitations of bootloaders have been resolved. First off - bootloaders are extremely fast, 5-20 seconds to program an 18F252 (Romzap was even better - 2 seconds or so for "incremental" updates on an 16F876); they use minimal memory; they release any ports they were using when they're done (I use RC6 and RC7 for my bootloader and for my serial port in my running application). The only preparation I have to make is to reserve space for the boot loader and make sure the first instruction in my program is a jump. This has never had an impact for me on using out-of-the-box code. In this setup, I don't need to move or touch anything physical (other than my reset switch on MCLR) to test new code. I can make a change, assemble/compile it, and have it running 10 seconds after it was compiled. My view is that bootloaders are a great entry point for PICs. -Matt -- There are 10 types of people in the world..those that understand binary and those that don't. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> In this setup, I don't need to move or touch anything physical (other than > my reset switch on MCLR) to test new code. I can make a change, > assemble/compile it, and have it running 10 seconds after it was compiled. > > My view is that bootloaders are a great entry point for PICs. > > -Matt Better than that, the one I use uses one of the serial port status lines to initiate the reset, I don't have to touch a thing. It's faster, I don't have to pull the chip, I don't have to adjust my hardware to isolate the ICSP pins, it uses the same serial hardware I use to communicate with my application, it only uses 256 bytes of program space, and (I can here Olin now) one line in the compiler takes care of all the placement and overwrite issues. I firmly believe a 16f877, PicBasic Plus, and microCode Studio is the easiest setup I've ever seen. -Denny -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Well you still need a programmer unless you buy a chip pre-programmed with a bootloader > they release any ports they were using when they're done only a sissy bootloader needs ports or pins :) > In this setup, I don't need to move or touch anything > physical (other than > my reset switch on MCLR) to test new code. Why use a reset switch when you have handshake lines? IMHO a good bootloader (or ICSP programmer) allows you to run your new application without touching the target hardware at all. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> > Well you still need a programmer > > unless you buy a chip pre-programmed with a bootloader Yeah, I tried that for a while - borrowed a programmer from a friend and programmed several PICs w/a bootloader. Ultimately though, I decided to get one. As my needs changed and I started using new PICs, it became too inconvenient for me not to have a programmer. Definitely doable though, I agree. Glitchbuster.com takes low volume orders for pics for hobbyists and will preprogram them for you - I'm not sure know what options he has on what they're programmed with. > > they release any ports they were using when they're done > > only a sissy bootloader needs ports or pins :) Yes - I agree. I'm pursuing this concept of a bootloader that doesn't use any pins, in my spare time. It runs on ESP. Unfortunately Microchip still doesn't have hardware support for it. Until they come out with an MESP module, we have to bit bang it. Once you have your hex file, you open it up and concentrate on each bit individually... The biggest advantage is that I can do firmware upgrades for customers without getting out of bed (or the lotus position). :-) > > In this setup, I don't need to move or touch anything > > physical (other than > > my reset switch on MCLR) to test new code. > > Why use a reset switch when you have handshake lines? I find it's just easier. My applications usually have a reset switch - so why not use it? -- There are 10 types of people in the world..those that understand binary and those that don't. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

I picked up a cheap programer from Spark Fun.....they have one for $8 bucks US....and if you want a socket...$13 bucks....not bad! http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=26095&cat=3& >>> spam_OUTwouterTakeThisOuTVOTI.NL 12/05/03 01:33PM >>> > Well you still need a programmer unless you buy a chip pre-programmed with a bootloader > they release any ports they were using when they're done only a sissy bootloader needs ports or pins :) > In this setup, I don't need to move or touch anything > physical (other than > my reset switch on MCLR) to test new code. Why use a reset switch when you have handshake lines? IMHO a good bootloader (or ICSP programmer) allows you to run your new application without touching the target hardware at all. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Yeah, I tried that for a while - borrowed a programmer from a > friend and > programmed several PICs w/a bootloader. Ultimately though, I > decided to get > one. As my needs changed and I started using new PICs, it became too > inconvenient for me not to have a programmer. I agree with yoy on this, a bootloader has its use when you start using PICs, but after the second or third PIC one should seriously consider a programmer. But some people might never use more than one PIC (or rather never achieve a real use of that first one), and for those a bootloader is definitely cheaper. Also in a class situation a bootloader makes sense: one programmer, and for each student a PIC with bootloader (hardware can be very cheap). And for updating firmware in-the-field. > > only a sissy bootloader needs ports or pins :) > > Yes - I agree. I'm pursuing this concept of a bootloader that > doesn't use any pins, in my spare time. It runs on ESP. I prefer a more down-to-earth approach: google for ZPL and you will find my bootloader that uses the /MCLR pin as inteface (no, not limited to PICs that configure that pin as input - that would be cheating). I guess that once you know that it can be done you could work it out for yourself. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> I prefer a more down-to-earth approach: google for ZPL and you will find > my bootloader that uses the /MCLR pin as inteface (no, not limited to > PICs that configure that pin as input - that would be cheating). I guess > that once you know that it can be done you could work it out for > yourself. > > Wouter van Ooijen I took a look, very creative design, I like it! -Matt -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Friday, Dec 5, 2003, at 13:21 US/Pacific, Wouter van Ooijen wrote: > google for ZPL and you will find > my bootloader that uses the /MCLR pin as inteface (no, not limited to > PICs that configure that pin as input - that would be cheating). I never realized that this worked on PICs with /MCLR = input capability. That's quite neat! BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

>Definitly *not* to use the Wisp628 ! It's just a couple >install kits to run, you never realy have to "see" the >python code as such. I didn't know that. Sorry if I mislead! >But maybe you'd like to learn and use Python for >other reasons, I don't know, but I don't think people >should think it's something the *have* to learn to use >the Wisp628. Always on the lookout for a new skill of import to learn. In fact we recently purchased a new data acquistion setup and all the software is written in Python...and of course, none of it works as it is supposed to. Mike H. >Jan-Erik. _________________________________________________________________ Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear at MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! http://shopping.msn.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

What are the advantages of using a bootloader vs. In-Circuit Serial Programming? Nick {Quote hidden}>Also I'd like to second the earlier suggestions of using a bootloader. My >favorite for 16F87x series was Romzap - but it doesn't appear to be around >anymore - anyone know what happened to it? I use the bootloader at >microchipc.com now for 18F2X2 work (they also have a 16F87x bootloader). > >-Matt > >-- There are 10 types of people in the world..those that understand binary >and those that don't. > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different >ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. _________________________________________________________________ Don t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Herbert Graf wrote: > > > > What are the advantages of using a bootloader vs. In-Circuit Serial > > > Programming? > > > > No programming hardware is needed (once the > > bootloader is in the chip). > > > No cable ? > > Jan-Erik. Well, for many projects the cable is part of the project (at least for debugging if not in the final project). Obviously for projects that don't use serial the cable is in addition, but I would really consider a cable alone to be "programming hardware". TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> How do you get the HEX file out of the PC? It is stored in an EEPROM I > assume but if you have to program that then why not just program > the PIC and > be done with it? > > Nick The program is transferred to the PIC over the serial port (either the hardware USART or bit banged) and the PIC writes it's own program memory, effectively programming itself. The only hardware needed is a cable connecting the PC to the PIC, most projects already have a serial port connection (either for debug or as part of the design) so for many projects there is nothing additional needed. TTYL ---------------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Ahh OK that seems more attractive. Thanks, Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Graf" <@spam@mailinglistKILLspamFARCITE.NET> To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PICLIST] [PIC:] Beginner Question > > How do you get the HEX file out of the PC? It is stored in an EEPROM I > > assume but if you have to program that then why not just program > > the PIC and > > be done with it? > > > > Nick > > The program is transferred to the PIC over the serial port (either the > hardware USART or bit banged) and the PIC writes it's own program memory, > effectively programming itself. The only hardware needed is a cable > connecting the PC to the PIC, most projects already have a serial port > connection (either for debug or as part of the design) so for many projects {Quote hidden}> there is nothing additional needed. TTYL > > ---------------------------------- > Herbert's PIC Stuff: > http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

How many PIC's have a bootloader written for them & were can I find these programs? ************************************************* Roy Hopkins TakeThisOuTrdhopkinsEraseMEspam_OUTihug.co.nz ************************************************* > The program is transferred to the PIC over the serial port (either the > hardware USART or bit banged) and the PIC writes it's own program memory, > effectively programming itself. The only hardware needed is a cable > connecting the PC to the PIC, most projects already have a serial port > connection (either for debug or as part of the design) so for many projects > there is nothing additional needed. TTYL --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 5/12/2003 -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Saturday, Dec 6, 2003, at 09:15 US/Pacific, James Sears wrote: > What are the advantages of using a bootloader vs. In-Circuit Serial > Programming? > On advantage is that at least theoretically, you move the details of the programming algorithm from the pc-side software to the bootloader firmware in the chip itself, and don't have to worry as much about the differences between a 16f818 and 16f818a. On the other hand, it does end up looking an awful lot like just another type of serial programmer. Most of motorolas microcontrollers, an some of the TI parts have used bootstrap loaders (hidden in rom, so when you set some external pin, the boot rom executes instead of the user programmed eprom) for a long time, but they still call their low cost development systems that they call "programmers" - by the time you say "you need these pins, and your need the crystal freq to be xy.z MHz, and you need a 12V supply for VPP", I'm not sure that it makes that much difference. I suppose that technically, the difference between a boot loader and ICSP is that the bootloader has fewer timing dependencies. You need to get a serial bitrate right, but there's less of the "assert x and strobe y for 5ms." This puts a lot less pressure on PC software that is increasingly unable to produce tightly timed external signal changes. I fair number of the bootloaders available provide some sort of debugging environment as well (in fact, i think the bootloader capable PICs are tagged as "supports ICD" in the microchip parametric tables... BillW -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> How many PIC's have a bootloader written for them & were can I find these > programs? Any PIC capable of writing it's own program memory (the 16f877 and most (all?) of the 18F series) can use a bootloader. I believe Microchip has one on their site, there are many others. Try google. TTYL ---------------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

[Nick] >>How do you get the HEX file out of the PC? It is stored in an EEPROM I >>assume but if you have to program that then why not just program >>the PIC and be done with it? >> > Herbert Graf wrote: > The program is transferred to the PIC over the serial port (either the > hardware USART or bit banged) and the PIC writes it's own program memory, > effectively programming itself. When I as PIC-newbee started to read about bootloaders it sounded as if nothing more is needed than a cable. Others as naive as me may be be mislead similarly. It is mostly not mentioned that each bootloader needs a partner-program at the PC side to pickup and transfer the hex file to the bootloader in the way the bootloader expects. Regards, Rob -- Rob Hamerling, Vianen, NL phone +31-347-322822 homepage: http://www.robh.nl/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

William Chops Westfield wrote : > On Saturday, Dec 6, 2003, at 09:15 US/Pacific, James Sears wrote: > > > What are the advantages of using a bootloader vs. In-Circuit Serial > > Programming? > > > On advantage is that at least theoretically, you move the details of > the programming algorithm from the pc-side software to the bootloader > firmware in the chip itself, and don't have to worry as much about > the differences between a 16f818 and 16f818a. Well, many "programmers" (non-bootloader types, like the Wisp628) has some kind of firmware in the programmer itself, that take care of most device dependant differences . How much of the device dependances that are put in the firmware vs. the PC software is very much up to the designer of the programmer. > I suppose that technically, the difference between a boot loader > and ICSP is that the bootloader has fewer timing dependencies. > You need to get a serial bitrate right, but there's less of > the "assert x and strobe y for 5ms." This puts a lot less pressure > on PC software that is increasingly unable to produce tightly timed > external signal changes. Again, this is handled by the firmware in most "better" programmers. The comminucation from the PC is more or less non-critical. Jan-Erik. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

> What are the advantages of using a bootloader vs. In-Circuit Serial > Programming? You might get away with less hardware. For instance my ZPL bootloader uses a transistor, two resistors and a diode. And I once tried (succesfully) with only the transistor. To be honest, you also need a DB9 connector, a serial cable and a PC. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu

I suppose you need a program for EVERYTHING these days! :-) DOC At 10:04 AM 12/7/2003 +0100, you wrote: ... {Quote hidden}>When I as PIC-newbee started to read about bootloaders it sounded as if >nothing more is needed than a cable. Others as naive as me may be be >mislead similarly. It is mostly not mentioned that each bootloader needs >a partner-program at the PC side to pickup and transfer the hex file to >the bootloader in the way the bootloader expects. > >Regards, Rob > >-- >Rob Hamerling, Vianen, NL phone +31-347-322822 >homepage: http://www.robh.nl/ > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList >EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

On Sunday, Dec 7, 2003, at 04:17 US/Pacific, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote: >> the differences between a 16f818 and 16f818a. > > Well, many "programmers" (non-bootloader types, like the Wisp628) > has some kind of firmware in the programmer itself, that take care > of most device dependant differences . Sure, but this is at the expense of, well, expense; in the form of needing a micro in the programmer itself, and having to deal with probable upgrades of that micro. A Bootloader gives you the simplicity of a trivial programmer with the device independence of a smarter programmer. (But of course you need pics that have the boot code in them already.) BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

William Chops Westfield wrote : > > Well, many "programmers" (non-bootloader types, like the Wisp628) > > has some kind of firmware in the programmer itself, that take care > > of most device dependant differences . > > Sure, but this is at the expense of, well, expense; in the form of > needing a micro in the programmer itself, and having to deal with > probable upgrades of that micro. Well, the *firmware* PIC could use a bootloader, I'd guess :-) > A Bootloader gives you the simplicity of a trivial programmer with > the device independence of a smarter programmer. (But of course > you need pics that have the boot code in them already.) And there are some interesting PIC you can't use at all, as the 12F series... Jan-Erik. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads