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'[PIC:] 16F627 won't pull high'
2003\12\17@125844 by Bryan Mumford

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It's maddening. Such a simple project. I have a 16F627 supposed to
drive some transistors with a pulse. The scope shows the port B
outputs are low at rest, as they are supposed to be. But when they
are commanded to pull high, they seem to go tri-state instead. The
scope shows the lines float, with 60 cycle noise, for the duration of
the supposed high state (.01 seconds). Then they return to a low
state.

How can this be? The TRIS register is not changed. They output a low,
but won't pull high. Even a spare bit, unconnected to anything,
behaves the same way.

The clockout pin shows the internal oscillator is running, and the
circuit works fine when emulated with the Mathias ICE. I've tried
several chips.

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2003\12\17@130503 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Bryan Mumford wrote:

> How can this be? The TRIS register is not changed. They output a low,
> but won't pull high. Even a spare bit, unconnected to anything,
> behaves the same way.

What's between the PIC and the transistor bases?  And which output pins,
exactly?  And can you post a code snippet, showing how you are setting the
bits high and low?

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2003\12\17@141855 by Bryan Mumford

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At 12:03 PM -0600 12-17-03, Dale Botkin wrote:
>What's between the PIC and the transistor bases?  And which output pins,
>exactly?  And can you post a code snippet, showing how you are setting the
>bits high and low?


There is a 1K resistor between RB.0, RB.1, RB.2, and RB.3 and the
base of a 2N2222 NPN transistor. But RB.4 behaves the same way, and
it's connected to nothing.

Here is the relevant code. At "wait1a" RA.0 goes from a low state to
a floating input-like state, then goes low again at "low".



       include '16F627.inc'
       fuses   _INTRC_OSC_CLKOUT       ;oscillator
       fuses   _WDT_OFF                ;Watchdog timer
       fuses   _CP_OFF         ;Code protect
       fuses   _BODEN_OFF      ;Brownout detect
       fuses   _PWRTE_ON       ;Powerup timer
       fuses   _LVP_OFF        ;low voltage programming
       fuses   _MCLRE_ON       ;MCLR is pulled high internally, RA.5
is available

flash1          equ     RB.0    ;flash output 1
flash2          equ     RB.1    ;flash output 2
flash3          equ     RB.2    ;flash output 3
flash4          equ     RB.3    ;flash output 4

inbit           equ     RB.7    ;input


       org     0

init    clr     RB                      ;set to zero
       clr     RA                      ;set to zero

       setb    RP0
       mov     TRISB,#10000000b
       mov     TRISA,#11111111b
       clrb    RP0

       mov     CMCON,#7                ;comparators off, digital I/O on port A

       clr     maskB                   ;port B mask
       mov     portB,maskB

main    jb      inbit,main              ;stay here until input pulls low

do1     setb    maskB.0                 ;set this flash on
       setb    maskB.4                 ;debug
wait1a  mov     portB, maskB            ;turn on flash
       jnb     inbit,wait1a            ;keep flash on for duration

       ;end of phase 1
       clr     maskB
low     mov     portB, maskB            ;turn off output
       call    ResetTimeout            ;reset timeout counter
wait1b  jnb     inbit,do2               ;if input pulled low, do next phase
       call    CheckTimeout            ;see if I've timed out
       jz      wait1b                  ;jump if not yet
       jmp     main                    ;timed out, wait for next input


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2003\12\17@161140 by John N. Power

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{Quote hidden}

This behavior is typical of open drain transistor outputs. Check the
date sheet to see if those port pins are open drain. Also, try pullup
resistors on the outputs, and see what happens.

John Power

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2003\12\17@162349 by David Duffy
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Bryan Mumford wrote:

> There is a 1K resistor between RB.0, RB.1, RB.2, and RB.3 and the
> base of a 2N2222 NPN transistor. But RB.4 behaves the same way, and
> it's connected to nothing.
>
> Here is the relevant code. At "wait1a" RA.0 goes from a low state to
> a floating input-like state, then goes low again at "low".


You may want to mention what language it's written in.
If it's not assembler, your audience will be a lot smaller.
David...

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2003\12\17@163018 by

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David Duffy wrote :

>
> Bryan Mumford wrote:
>
> > Here is the relevant code. At "wait1a" RA.0 goes from a low state to
> > a floating input-like state, then goes low again at "low".
>
> You may want to mention what language it's written in.
> If it's not assembler, your audience will be a lot smaller.
> David...


When I looked at it, it looked as ASM with a lot of
small macros (mov, jb, setb and so on). One thing to
watch out for, is "skip" instructions just before
an "instruction" that actualy is a two or three line
macro. The skip will then jump right into the middle
of the macro. I think I saw some "jb" (which is some
"jump-macro", I'd guess) just before some of these
"macro-like" instructions...

Jan-Erik.

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2003\12\17@163019 by Bryan Mumford

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At 4:10 PM -0500 12-17-03, John N. Power wrote:
>This behavior is typical of open drain transistor outputs. Check the
>date sheet to see if those port pins are open drain. Also, try pullup
>resistors on the outputs, and see what happens.

Port B on the 16F627 is not open drain. The pins should go high. I
don't want to mask some other problem by adding pullup resistors.

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2003\12\17@163020 by Bryan Mumford

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At 7:23 AM +1000 12-18-03, David Duffy wrote:
>You may want to mention what language it's written in.
>If it's not assembler, your audience will be a lot smaller.

It's written in assembler, using Parallax extended mnemonics.

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2003\12\17@165527 by

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Bryan Mumford wrote :
>
> At 7:23 AM +1000 12-18-03, David Duffy wrote:
> > You may want to mention what language it's written in.
> > If it's not assembler, your audience will be a lot smaller.
>
> It's written in assembler, using Parallax extended mnemonics.
>


Do you have access to a source list with the
"Parallax extended mnemonics" expanded into
"real" PIC instructions ?

Jan-Erik.

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2003\12\17@170153 by John N. Power

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> From:         Bryan Mumford[SMTP:EraseMEbryanspamBMUMFORD.COM]
> Sent:         Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:27 PM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC:] 16F627 won't pull high

> At 4:10 PM -0500 12-17-03, John N. Power wrote:
>>This behavior is typical of open drain transistor outputs. Check the
>>date sheet to see if those port pins are open drain. Also, try pullup
>>resistors on the outputs, and see what happens.

> Port B on the 16F627 is not open drain. The pins should go high. I
> don't want to mask some other problem by adding pullup resistors.

The other common cause for this is multiplexing the port pins with
some peripheral function. From the data sheet:

       PORTB is multiplexed with the interrupt, USART, CCP
       module and the TMR1 clock input/output. The standard
       port functions and the alternate port functions are
       shown in Table 5-3.

Make that the port is configured for digital output. Frequently that
configuration is not the power-up default.

John Power

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2003\12\17@172306 by Bryan Mumford

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At 10:54 PM +0100 12-17-03, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote:
>Do you have access to a source list with the
>"Parallax extended mnemonics" expanded into
>"real" PIC instructions ?

Yes, I have the listing, but this is not the problem. The only time
you can get in trouble with these macros is if you use a "skip next"
instruction and the next instruction is a two-byte macro. But there
are no "skip" instructions in the listing. "jb" is "jump if bit x".

I suppose I've complicated my question by using these mnemonics. But
the code executes just fine. I can single step it with an in-circuit
emulator. I can run it at full speed with the in-circuit emulator and
the device performs correctly. The output bits behave correctly with
the emulator. But when the EXACT same program goes into an actual
chip, the high levels are absent.

I thought that I might have somehow damaged the port B output drivers
in one chip, but a second chip behaves the same.

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2003\12\17@173356 by Tony Nixon

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Hard to diagnose with the code as supplied because you have jumps to
code and subroutines that are not listed. (CheckTimeout, ResetTimeout etc)

You also are writing continuously to PORTB while waiting for a logic
state change on portB (maskB bit), maybe this upsets things too.

wait1a  mov   portB, maskB        ;turn on flash
           jnb     inbit,wait1a            ;keep flash on for duration

why not try...

          mov     portB, maskB            ;turn on flash
wait1a  nop
           jnb     inbit,wait1a            ;keep flash on for duration


Using consecutive BSF or BCF instructions on a port, may cause problems
too. Place a NOP between them at least.

do1     setb    maskB.0                 ;set this flash on
         setb    maskB.4                 ;debug


do1     setb    maskB.0                 ;set this flash on
         nop
         setb    maskB.4                 ;debug


Not sure what you have connected to PORTA, but unused pins should be set
as outputs, not inputs.


Try doing something simpler just to verify your circuit.


init    clr     RB                      ;set to zero
      clr     RA                      ;set to zero

      setb    RP0
      mov     TRISB,#10000000b
      mov     TRISA,#11111111b   ; <<<set to ouputs if unconnected
      clrb    RP0

      mov     CMCON,#7                ;comparators off, digital I/O on
port A

main    nop
          jb      inbit,main              ;stay here until input pulls low

         setb    maskB.0                 ;set this flash on
Stay    jmp    Stay                    ; RB0 should be HIGH

If RB0 is not HI and RB1..RB7 are not LO, then either the PIC is faulty
or your circuit is.

If the problem still exists, pen circuit all of PORTB except RB7 and try
again using a voltmeter.

If the problem still exists, then the PIC is faulty, or your programmer
or compiler is.

If it now works with everything connected, progressively add to your
code which may reveal the problem.

regards

Tony


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2003\12\17@173605 by Bryan Mumford

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At 4:58 PM -0500 12-17-03, John N. Power wrote:
>Make that the port is configured for digital output. Frequently that
>configuration is not the power-up default.

Port A must be set to digital mode, and it is. But it's port B
causing the problem and it's always digital. It defaults to simple
bi-directional I/O unless some alternate function is selected, and
none is.

But the code works fine in the emulator and only fails in a real
chip. I just tried a third chip in case I had somehow damaged the
output drivers in both of the other ones. The third one behaves the
same. When port B pins are set to a high level output, they seem to
float instead, and acquire a +/- 200 millivolt 60 cycle sine wave.

What difference can there be between the bondout in the emulator and
a real chip?

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2003\12\17@175230 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Bryan Mumford wrote:

> But the code works fine in the emulator and only fails in a real
> chip. I just tried a third chip in case I had somehow damaged the
> output drivers in both of the other ones. The third one behaves the
> same. When port B pins are set to a high level output, they seem to
> float instead, and acquire a +/- 200 millivolt 60 cycle sine wave.

If NONE of the pins are connected to transistors, does it do the same
thing?

Dale
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2003\12\17@175648 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Bryan Mumford wrote:

> do1     setb    maskB.0                 ;set this flash on
>         setb    maskB.4                 ;debug
> wait1a  mov     portB, maskB            ;turn on flash
>         jnb     inbit,wait1a            ;keep flash on for duration

How sure are you that you're in the correct bank, and not writing to TRISB
instead of PORTB?  I assume you've looked at that part closely in the
emulator?  Having never used an ICE I'm not all that sure what it will or
won't tell you.

Dale
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2003\12\17@180511 by David Duffy

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Bryan Mumford wrote:

> At 10:54 PM +0100 12-17-03, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote:
>
>> Do you have access to a source list with the
>> "Parallax extended mnemonics" expanded into
>> "real" PIC instructions ?
>
>
> Yes, I have the listing, but this is not the problem. The only time
> you can get in trouble with these macros is if you use a "skip next"
> instruction and the next instruction is a two-byte macro. But there
> are no "skip" instructions in the listing. "jb" is "jump if bit x".


I realise you're probably new to this list so I'll tell you that it's not
a Parallax list. That's not to say that some here don't use Parallax,
it's just that the default is Microchip assembler where no other
language is specified. You really need to show the assembler code
to the list if you want some real help on this one. Sounds like a
banking problem to me though.
David...

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2003\12\17@182211 by Olin Lathrop

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Bryan Mumford wrote:
> Yes, I have the listing, but this is not the problem.

Excuse me, but since you have a problem you don't know the cause of, you are
in no position say what is or isn't the problem.

> The only time
> you can get in trouble with these macros is if you use a "skip next"
> instruction and the next instruction is a two-byte macro. But there
> are no "skip" instructions in the listing. "jb" is "jump if bit x".

But this JB macro must be implemented with a SKIP instruction since there
are no conditional jumps on the 16 family (which I thought you were using).

> I suppose I've complicated my question by using these mnemonics.

Yes, you have.  The vast majority of assembler programmers here use MPASM.
You will get better help if you stick to the standard since nobody wants to
spend time trying to figure out what's going on only to find out later the
tools were doing something unexpected.


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2003\12\17@182419 by Olin Lathrop

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Bryan Mumford wrote:
> But the code works fine in the emulator and only fails in a real
> chip.

OK, what exactly is tied to the pin in question in the real circuit?

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2003\12\17@184534 by Tony Nixon

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> Yes, I have the listing, but this is not the problem. The only time
> you can get in trouble with these macros is if you use a "skip next"
> instruction and the next instruction is a two-byte macro. But there
> are no "skip" instructions in the listing. "jb" is "jump if bit x".


Surely that would expand into...

btfsc SomeReg,bit_x
goto ROM_addr

regards

Tony

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2003\12\17@184535 by Tony Nixon

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Possibly in MPASM format...

main    btfsc PORTB,inbit
          goto main

do1    bsf  maskB,0
         bsf maskB,4
wait1a  movf maskB,W
           movwf PORTB
        btfss PORTB,inbit
        goto wait1a

       ;end of phase 1
       clrf maskB
low   movf maskB,W
       movwf PORTB
       call ResetTimeout
wait1b   btfss PORTB,inbit
            goto wait1b
phase
        call CheckTimeout
        btfsc STATUS,Z
         goto wait1b
         goto main

This seems ok depending on ResetTimeout and CheckTimeout.


Appologies before for the consecutive BSF instructions, I thought they
were referring to a PORT, not a RAM register.

regards

Tony

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2003\12\17@190231 by Richard.Prosser

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Bryan.
Can you check what happens if you setup port B  using a different approach.
For example setting the RP0 bit using an OR command, rather than a bit set
command. (and clearing with an AND)

What I am thinking is that there is a page selection  problem  as  the
symtoms are consistant with just setting/clearing the TRIS bits.
But using another method of page sel;ection, you may be able to isolate the
problem.

RP

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2003\12\17@202448 by ed_b_pes

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Haven't followed all of the messages in this thread so please forgive me for
redundancy.  Did you put an Ohmmeter from this pin to likely shorts?
Ground? an adjacent pin, etc.?

Ed

{Original Message removed}

2003\12\18@041329 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

I do not know, but I personally use only one FUSES statement where
operands all are AND'ed. If I have right, then you have continuous
watchdog reset...

Regards,
Imre

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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Bryan Mumford wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\12\18@041537 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

it seems to be written in Parallax and/or CVASM assembler. FYI.

Imre


On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Jan-Erik Soderholm XA (TN/PAC) wrote:

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2003\12\18@044521 by Alan B. Pearce

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>What difference can there be between the bondout
>in the emulator and a real chip?

I have heard of differences, as a special chip gets used in an emulator
which has extra bondout pads for the emulator functions.

Personally I think you should take two steps back, and load your code into
MPLAB, and run it in the simulator. Single step through the relevant bit of
code, and see which registers are changing state. Easily detected as the
register changes colour when altered. This will allow you to see if it is
actually changing the PORT register or the TRIS register. Five minutes doing
this often opens your eyes to all sorts of problems you thought were correct
in your code.

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2003\12\18@050424 by

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dr. Imre Bartfai wrote :

> >         fuses   _INTRC_OSC_CLKOUT       ;oscillator
> >         fuses   _WDT_OFF                ;Watchdog timer
> >         fuses   _CP_OFF         ;Code protect
> >         fuses   _BODEN_OFF      ;Brownout detect
> >         fuses   _PWRTE_ON       ;Powerup timer
> >         fuses   _LVP_OFF        ;low voltage programming
> >         fuses   _MCLRE_ON       ;MCLR is pulled high internally

> I do not know, but I personally use only one FUSES statement where
> operands all are AND'ed. If I have right, then you have continuous
> watchdog reset...
>

Ah, you mean that each FUSES statement just sets whatever
*that* symbol sets, and clears the other bits. Seems logical.
So then, the only fuse that is set, is the _MCLRE_ON and all
other bits are actualy cleared/set/enabled/disabled/whatever
(in the wrong state anyway), including WDT. Of course, *if*
that's the way the FUSES statement work...

Jan-Erik.

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2003\12\18@104056 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I haven't caught this whole thread, but this really looks like you are
changing the TRIS register rather than the PORT register. Is there any
chance that you are in the wrong bank?

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2003\12\18@111859 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
First, this should have been sent to the list, not to me personally.

Bryan Mumford wrote:
>> OK, what exactly is tied to the pin in question in the real circuit?
>
> RB.0-3 are
> connected to 1K resistors.

Do we have to take this one baby step at a time, or are you going to tell me
what exactly is connected to the pins?

Apparently each of RB0-RB3 is connected to a separate 1Kohm resistor.  I'm
not going to keep playing 20 questions.  If you don't want to tell me all
the relevant information, like what might be on the other side of those
1Kohm resistors, that's your business.  I'm not going to waste time trying
to extract information from you to try to diagnose your problem.

> The other pins are unconnected.

So you've only tried this with the emulator and not with a real chip?
Obviously the real chip would need power, ground, MCLR, perhaps an
oscillator, etc.


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