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'[OT]California wild fire'
2007\10\24@185038 by Funny NYPD

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Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?

Funny

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2007\10\24@190331 by Dave Schmidt

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face
California needs:
- a lot more rain
- a lot less wind
- more accessible terrain


> Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?
>  

2007\10\24@195409 by James Newton

face picon face
This is a normal cycle in our biome. Some people cry for more rain, but all
that would do is build up the mass of burnable material for some year in the
future when the rain does not fall, the plants dry out, and the fire starts
again. There IS going to be a fire at some point in the future, because this
area does NOT get enough rain to keep everything wet all the time. If it
starts during the Santa Anna winds, the fire WILL spread all over the place.

Keeping it under control involves really big fire cuts to make it easy to
contain fires, really good water sources and sprinkler systems to keep your
property wet, more air planes to drop water if the winds are low enough,
more fire trucks and trained personnel, cooperation with the military
resources, all that crap.

Looks like this time was a lot worse because of the many years of drought
but they really have done a heck of a job putting out the fires.

--
James Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Funny NYPD
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 15:50
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT]California wild fire

Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any
way to prevent it?

Funny

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2007\10\24@200203 by Jim Korman

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Dave Schmidt wrote:
> California needs:
> - a lot more rain
> - a lot less wind
> - more accessible terrain
>
>
>  
>> Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?
>>  
>>    
>
>  
Fast forward a few million years and Southern California
is up around 40N and now a temperate rain forest.

Until then........SOL.

Jim

2007\10\24@203006 by Dave Schmidt

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Wife's been using these fires as another example of why we should move
out of CA and move to MN.
With global warming "winters are getting milder in MN", and there's
"plenty of rain to keep wildfires from happening".
Oh, and there's no termites. . or fleas. . . or. . .or. .  .

Dave

Jim Korman wrote:
> Fast forward a few million years and Southern California
> is up around 40N and now a temperate rain forest.
>
> Until then........SOL.
>
> Jim
>  

2007\10\24@205449 by James Newton

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Sun... Sun is the word you are looking for there, Dave.

--
James (must see the sun every day) Newton.

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\24@213713 by Vitaliy

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James Newton wrote:
[snip]
> Keeping it under control involves really big fire cuts to make it easy to
> contain fires, really good water sources and sprinkler systems to keep
> your
> property wet, more air planes to drop water if the winds are low enough,
> more fire trucks and trained personnel, cooperation with the military
> resources, all that crap.

Would doing controlled burns during the moderate winds season help any?

Grandparents of a co-worker lost their mountain cabin yesterday, and he lost
his old Porsche that he had parked there.

I guess that's the price people are willing to pay for living on the coast.

2007\10\24@222326 by Jinx

face picon face
> Wife's been using these fires as another example of why we
> should move out of CA and move to MN.

> Oh, and there's no termites. . or fleas. . . or. . .or. .  .

Californians ?

2007\10\24@225514 by James Newton

face picon face
Oh, now... Come on... Let's not invoke the "California is a dangerous place"
card.

I do think a lot of this is a result of people not making really brilliant
decisions about where to buy a house. I don't mean to be cruel towards
people who have recently lost their homes, but there are lots and lots of
homes in SoCal that are perfectly safe today.

When we looked for a home, there were places in Elfin forest (a lovely place
with lots of trees, etc...) and we specifically decided against that based
on the fear of a fire wiping it out. A few years later, that entire area
burned flat to the ground.

There was another house we looked at which was backed up against a hill. The
seller said the USGS said the hill was stable; we didn't buy it. There are
houses just around the hill that were built directly below a dam. And when
there is an earthquake and that hill and that dam fall over, people will go
on about earthquakes and how dangerous it is to live in SoCal.

Bull pucky. It's dangerous to buy a home without thinking about what might
happen to it first.

You can buy a house in Minnesota, out in the woods, with a poor quality
heater and freeze to death during a blizzard: "I guess that's the price
people are willing to pay to live near Lake Woebegone."

Arizona: Heat stroke? Dust storm?

Florida: Storms?

New York: Mugging? Taxi?

I don't know.

There are less than excellent places to buy a home just about anywhere.

--
James Newton

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\24@225742 by James Newton

face picon face
I happen to know for a fact that there are Californians in MN. They are
slowly being assimilated, but they hide their sandals in the closet and we
still ship them pink tofu (in brown paper packages) on a regular basis.

;^)

--
James Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jinx
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 19:23
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT]California wild fire

> Wife's been using these fires as another example of why we
> should move out of CA and move to MN.

> Oh, and there's no termites. . or fleas. . . or. . .or. .  .

Californians ?

2007\10\25@010850 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/25/07, James Newton <EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmassmind.org> wrote:
> Oh, now... Come on... Let's not invoke the "California is a dangerous place"
> card.

Not really related but it seems California is quite different from other
parts of US. I like Southern California very much since I stayed
in Irvine (in Orange County) for a year. Very nice place, clean
and safe. The housing price is not cheaper but still cheaper
than Silicon Valley. The food is good since there are many
choices: western, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Iranian,
Vietnamese, etc. The weather is also nice. A bit of more
rain will be nice but I think that is still manageable. They also have
a good public school system. I think the Irvine Company must
be very good.

This morning a colleague from US gave us a training session on
Certifications. Now I know there are so many certifications in
the world. For ROHS, there are European ROHS, China ROHS
and ............................... California ROHS.


Xiaofan

2007\10\25@015540 by Jinx

face picon face


> I happen to know for a fact that there are Californians in MN. They
> are slowly being assimilated, but they hide their sandals in the closet
> and we still ship them pink tofu (in brown paper packages) on a
> regular basis.
>
> ;^)

;->) yourself  ;-P

I'd not heard about the sandals and tofu, but there's a rumour the Mob
are running botox and beach sand up there. Lake Big Sandy used to be
Lake Bit Sandy, y'know. Fair swap, eventually, for the Lakers I guess

PS, one of my favourite films is Fargo. Then again, another one is
Mulholland Drive

2007\10\25@035112 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Wife's been using these fires as another example of
>why we should move out of CA and move to MN.

I am told Wyoming is nice - about the size of the UK, but less than a
million people, against the ~60 million of the UK ...

2007\10\25@041100 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Funny NYPD wrote:

> Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?

Well, the same happens in southern Italy every august as well (june-july
too actually) :-(

Several reasons, of course heat is a big one.

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\25@042653 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Curious why this wild fire happens every single year
>> in CA, are there any way to prevent it?
>
>Well, the same happens in southern Italy every august
>as well (june-july too actually) :-(

and France, Spain, Portugal, Greece had a massive one this year with a fair
number of people dying, ...

2007\10\25@044656 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>and France, Spain, Portugal, Greece had a massive one this
>year with a fair number of people dying, ...

And I forgot to mention Australia often has bushfires around Sydney each
year, NZ has had some, but these are often arson but occasionally natural.

2007\10\25@054515 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Oct 24, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Jinx wrote:

>> Oh, and there's no termites. . or fleas. . . or. . .or. .  .
>
> Californians ?

Yeah.  Mixed bag that they are, the lack of diversity in
other places can be rather shocking.

BillW

2007\10\25@105821 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 10/24/07, James Newton <jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTmassmind.org> wrote:
> more air planes to drop water if the winds are low enough,

James,

I believe that BC is sending a water bomber your way, after they get
it out of winter storage!  Are fires in October the norm, or do they
usually occur in the summer?

Alex

2007\10\25@110707 by Jeff Findley
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"Alex Harford" <@spam@harfordKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:KILLspamf9d2dfc50710250758t1c7b7f05r5e601f5078efdb5dKILLspamspammail.gmail.com...> > On 10/24/07, James Newton <RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspammassmind.org> wrote:
>> more air planes to drop water if the winds are low enough,
>
> I believe that BC is sending a water bomber your way, after they get
> it out of winter storage!  Are fires in October the norm, or do they
> usually occur in the summer?

Maybe BC ought to relocate its winter storage facility to Southern
California.

Jeff
--
   "When transportation is cheap, frequent, reliable, and flexible,
everything else becomes easier."
- Jon Goff



2007\10\25@123623 by James Newton

face picon face
Late fall is the time for wildfires here. There is a weather pattern called
"the Santa Anna" or "Devil Wind" where hot air from the desert east of us
build up such a high pressure that it reverses the normal flow of air from
the ocean going east and we have a long period (several days) of super dry,
hot, desert air flowing west instead. It makes for a toasty warm
Thanksgiving most years, and when there has been a bit of rain to grow some
grass, tumble weeds, and perhaps even add a leaf or two to the remaining
trees, this wind dries them out and gets them ready for a hot, fast burn. If
a fire is started in the east, and the wind lasts for a few more days to
blow the fire west, it can make a real mess of things.

That's what has happened this year. But all in all, it isn't bad. A few
people died (mostly old, infirm, or just bull-headed), a small percentage of
the homes were destroyed (my house is now worth a bit more), and about %25
of the population was evacuated for a while (had a big assed party in
Qualcomm) and are now starting to head home. I assume the insurance industry
will cry for help and your tax dollars will pay for a small boom in new home
construction (unlike in New Orleans) and all will be well.

All in all, the worst part of it is most likely the long term effects of
poor air quality. That ash has more than burnt wood in it...

--
James Newton

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\25@124235 by Michael Dipperstein

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> From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu [TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of William "Chops" Westfield
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:45 AM
>
> On Oct 24, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Jinx wrote:
>
> >> Oh, and there's no termites. . or fleas. . . or. . .or. .  .
> >
> > Californians ?
>
> Yeah.  Mixed bag that they are, the lack of diversity in
> other places can be rather shocking.

I had a stopover in the Cincinnati Airport once and the lack of any
obvious diversity was unsettling.  Then I became unsettled by my
unsettledness.  Maybe I just had too much pink tofu before I started my
trip.

-Mike

2007\10\25@135101 by Jeff Findley

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"Michael Dipperstein" <RemoveMEMDippersteinspamTakeThisOuTCalAmp.com> wrote in message
news:DD8B2184B198D24E9F7F2C1D0AA849280109DB26EraseMEspam.....echinda.PD.CalAmpCorp.com...> > I had a stopover in the Cincinnati Airport once and the lack of any
> obvious diversity was unsettling.  Then I became unsettled by my
> unsettledness.  Maybe I just had too much pink tofu before I started my
> trip.

Make that the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG).  The
airport itself actually located in northern Kentucky.

Jeff
--
   "When transportation is cheap, frequent, reliable, and flexible,
everything else becomes easier."
- Jon Goff



2007\10\25@161705 by Nate Duehr

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Dave Schmidt wrote:
> Wife's been using these fires as another example of why we should move
> out of CA and move to MN.

Out of the frying pan, into the refrigerator?

:-)

Nate

2007\10\25@161824 by Nate Duehr

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Dave Schmidt wrote:
> California needs:
> - a lot more rain
> - a lot less wind
> - more accessible terrain

- Less nutjobs starting fires.
- More/Bigger fires.  Burn it ALL down and then it'll take quite a while
to regrow.

Nate

2007\10\25@162446 by Nate Duehr

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James Newton wrote:
> I happen to know for a fact that there are Californians in MN. They are
> slowly being assimilated, but they hide their sandals in the closet and we
> still ship them pink tofu (in brown paper packages) on a regular basis.

We stopped allowing them to immigrate here in the early 2000's and shoot
them on sight at the Colorado/Utah border.

They're easy to spot... overloaded 2WD mini-vans and SUV's with
"spinner" wheels and four kids in the back all playing gaming consoles
or DVD's on separate 12" LCD screens.

We found that their propensity for purchasing cardboard houses that were
$100-$200K overpriced for their size and construction quality, so they
could avoid taxes on selling their similarly overpriced houses in
California, wasn't helping our housing market any.

We recommend they stay in California and enjoy the annual weenie roast
combined with the ground-shaking bass of the kids in their rice-boy cars
that have been lowered to the point where a speed bump is a serious
obstacle... oh wait, that wasn't bass, that was an earthquake... sorry,
I get those two mixed up.

:-) :-) :-)

Nate

2007\10\25@163401 by alan smith

picon face
sure...get rid of everything that burns

Dave Schmidt <EraseMEtechsavyspamdschmidt.com> wrote:  California needs:
- a lot more rain
- a lot less wind
- more accessible terrain


> Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?
>

2007\10\25@165055 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Bull pucky. It's dangerous to buy a home without thinking about what might
> happen to it first.

Exactly.

> You can buy a house in Minnesota, out in the woods, with a poor quality
> heater and freeze to death during a blizzard: "I guess that's the price
> people are willing to pay to live near Lake Woebegone."

But the house will still be there!  Actually, I feel VERY safe living in
Minnesota because there are very few options for home-destroying natural
disasters here.

Go down the list- what natural disasters can wreck a home?  Flood,
fire (forest or brush- leave normal home fires out), tornado, hurricane,
earthquake.  Include tsunami under flood.

Flood, brush and forest fires can be mitigated by risk assessment before
the home is purchased.  Living less than a quarter mile from downtown
Minneapolis on top of Lowry Hill, I'm not too likely to see any of them;
however, every year, the spring thaw floods dozens or hundreds of homes
in Minnesota, and occasionally entire towns are wiped out by brush or
forest fires in outlying parts of the state.

Tornadoes can hit anywhere, but here they're less common than in, say,
Oklahoma.  I feel fairly safe that earthquakes (and definitely tsunami)
are out of the question, and hurricanes as well.  All in all, my little
apartment is quite unlikely to suffer from any natural disaster, as will
be the house I ultimately buy in the same neighborhood.

Of course, there are those who consider winter in Minnesota to be a
natural disaster unto itself.

Mike H.

2007\10\25@170521 by PAUL James

picon face

In Minnesote, there is always the danger of snow buildup on the roof
causing collapse.
Especially if you have good insulation.



       
Regards,

       
Jim

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\25@180206 by Goflo

picon face
Seems like I read somewhere that the largest loss-of-life
wildfire in the US took place in Minnesota, late 1800s.
Some small town got completely wiped out, IIRC. If I can
find the reference I'll post it.

best regards, Jack

---- Mike Hord <RemoveMEmike.hordEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\10\25@180814 by Goflo

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>
> > Curious why this wild fire happens every single year in CA, are there any way to prevent it?

Radio is reporting that cops in Orange County shot some guy
setting fires today. That's a step in the right direction.

Jack

2007\10\25@180930 by Howard Winter

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Alan,

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:50:52 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> I am told Wyoming is nice - about the size of the UK, but less than a
> million people, against the ~60 million of the UK ...

Sounds rather like South Island New Zealand, then - pretty much the same poulation density.  Or "deserted", as I think of it!  :-)))

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\10\25@201701 by 556RECON

picon face
From what I heard on one news story its the Da** trehugging nature
lover that will not let any one cut out the cover and undergrowth.  This
protects some of the little creatures  so they can get roasted in the
annual fires.  Stupid Tree Huggers.  They should hug the trees till it
scorches there rears.

Recon

alan smith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\10\26@042746 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Sounds rather like South Island New Zealand, then - pretty
>much the same poulation density.  Or "deserted", as I
>think of it!  :-)))

Err, yeah, I believe the south Island has now reached around a million as
the official population.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4248136a24035.html

Looks like it will always be 'a green and pleasant land' ... ;)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471951

As I put it to people, NZ is about the size of Britain, with less than the
population of Scotland. Trouble is they have the same problem as Britain,
they all want to live at one end ... the warmest end.

2007\10\26@055331 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Not all of us want to live up there. Been there, done that & not going
to do it again! At least not the furthest North.
RP

On 26/10/2007, Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\26@065219 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
Not all of us want to live up there. Been there, done that & not going
to do it again!

Yeah, I got out too ...

>At least not the furthest North.

Oh, I dunno, it is quite pleasant and laid back in Northland. I just kept
going north ... to the UK ... ;))

2007\10\26@070612 by Russell McMahon

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> As I put it to people, NZ is about the size of Britain,
> with less than the
> population of Scotland. Trouble is they have the same
> problem as Britain,
> they all want to live at one end ... the warmest end.

BUT if you map NZ on to its antipodes in the northern
hemisphere you find that it lies across Portugal and Spain
and the very bottom is out in the Bay of Biscay off France -
WELL South of the UK. All the UK lies down/up in the
equivalent of our Campbell and Auckland Islands where its is
very very cold and inhospitable.

The Atlantic Conveyor / Gulf Stream combo is all that keeps
the sea form around the UK freezing solid permanently. And
sometimes it almost forgets.

So the coldest places in NZ often enough make the warmest
places in the UK look somewhat chilly :-)
But, not always. Invercargill is often a good place not to
be in mid winter.


       Russell

2007\10\26@104151 by Peter P.

picon face
PAUL James <James.Paul <at> colibrys.com> writes:
> In Minnesote, there is always the danger of snow buildup on the roof
> causing collapse.
> Especially if you have good insulation.

Aren't there building rules about the required roof slope for that reason ?
There are, elsewhere. I think that that skating ring collapsed in Germany last
winter because it was in a zone where the roofs were calculated for X snow load
and it came out to X*3 that winter. Nearly all mountain chalets etc have a very
pointy roof and reinforced walls (snow can push a wall in when piled against it).
I guess lake effect exposed structures count double for that.

Peter P.


2007\10\26@114332 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > In Minnesota, there is always the danger of snow buildup on the roof
> > causing collapse.
> > Especially if you have good insulation.
>
> Aren't there building rules about the required roof slope for that reason ?
> There are, elsewhere. I think that that skating ring collapsed in Germany last
> winter because it was in a zone where the roofs were calculated for X snow load
> and it came out to X*3 that winter. Nearly all mountain chalets etc have a very
> pointy roof and reinforced walls (snow can push a wall in when piled against it).
> I guess lake effect exposed structures count double for that.

I think there are; at any rate, I've never heard of it happening,
although I have
not lived here that long.  We don't get THAT much snow- certainly not as
much as falls in the mountains.

A bigger threat is falling through the ice on a lake- but that's only
for those who
ice fish.

Mike H.

2007\10\26@165431 by Dave Schmidt

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and snowmobile, especially when drunk (so I hear).
> A bigger threat is falling through the ice on a lake- but that's only
> for those who
> ice fish.
>
> Mike H.
>  

2007\10\26@171124 by Nate Duehr

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> Wife's been using these fires as another example of
>> why we should move out of CA and move to MN.
>
> I am told Wyoming is nice - about the size of the UK, but less than a
> million people, against the ~60 million of the UK ...

If you like continuously blowing wind.

The old joke goes...

"You know why the wind blows in Wyoming?  Because Nebraska sucks."

:-)

Nate

2007\10\26@200032 by Vitaliy

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James Newton wrote:
> Oh, now... Come on... Let's not invoke the "California is a dangerous
> place"
> card.
[..]
> Bull pucky. It's dangerous to buy a home without thinking about what might
> happen to it first.

James, chill. :)  When did I say "CA is a dangeous place"?

You said:
{Quote hidden}

In other words, fires are a natural occurence where you live, and affect a
large percentage of the population. Yes, there are dangers in other places,
but dust storms and heat strokes rarely result in property damage.

All I'm saying is, people living in California accept the fact that the risk
of losing their property to fire is higher than in other places. To them,
the benefits of living on the coast (great weather, beautiful scenery,
access to the ocean) outweigh this risk.

Vitaliy


2007\10\26@200617 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
556RECON wrote:

> From what I heard on one news story its the Da** trehugging nature lover
> that will not let any one cut out the cover and undergrowth.  This
> protects some of the little creatures  so they can get roasted in the
> annual fires.  Stupid Tree Huggers.  They should hug the trees till it
> scorches there rears.

Actually, the /real/ reason is that Southern California still hasn't
rerouted 100% of the water in the South-Western USA into its territory. If
they had, and irrigated the remaining (not yet irrigated) part of the
state, there wouldn't be any wildfires.

:)  -- or :( depending on which side of the Colorado River you live...

Gerhard

2007\10\26@202316 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/27/07, Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsspamspamspamBeGoneconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Actually, the /real/ reason is that Southern California still hasn't
> rerouted 100% of the water in the South-Western USA into its territory. If
> they had, and irrigated the remaining (not yet irrigated) part of the
> state, there wouldn't be any wildfires.
>
> :)  -- or :( depending on which side of the Colorado River you live...


I am not so sure if this is the solution. Even if it is, can this ever
be possible done in a democratic country like USA because of many
concerns including environmental concerns?

Xiaofan

2007\10\26@225422 by 556RECON

picon face
There is a lot to do with common sense.  How many peaked roofs do you
see on shoping malls and large area buildings?  Not hardly a one.  
people just need to know when to get out and clear the snow off the roof.

{Quote hidden}

2007\10\26@234740 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/25/07, James Newton <RemoveMEjamesnewtonKILLspamspammassmind.org> wrote:
> I happen to know for a fact that there are Californians in MN. They are
> slowly being assimilated, but they hide their sandals in the closet and we
> still ship them pink tofu (in brown paper packages) on a regular basis.
>

I am sorry but what does "pink tofu" really means? I lke Tofu very much
and it is very popular in Chinese/Japanese/Korean food. However I
do not think I heard about "pink tofu" before. Google for "pink tofu
California" does not really tell much either. And I have never seen
the food on the first hit of Google for "pink tofu".

Xiaofan (who once stayed in Souther California as a poor student).

2007\10\27@011606 by Nate Duehr

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On Oct 26, 2007, at 6:23 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 10/27/07, Gerhard Fiedler <listsSTOPspamspamspam_OUTconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
>> Actually, the /real/ reason is that Southern California still hasn't
>> rerouted 100% of the water in the South-Western USA into its  
>> territory. If
>> they had, and irrigated the remaining (not yet irrigated) part of the
>> state, there wouldn't be any wildfires.
>>
>> :)  -- or :( depending on which side of the Colorado River you  
>> live...
>
>
> I am not so sure if this is the solution. Even if it is, can this ever
> be possible done in a democratic country like USA because of many
> concerns including environmental concerns?


He was making a joke, Xiaofan.

The joke is that California always wants more water from the Colorado  
River basin, and water in the Western U.S. is something that has been  
disputed and fought over since the Western U.S. was settled by the  
white men moving West.

(The Native American cultures were much more in tune with the natural  
limitations of the areas of the West in which they settled and  
understood where water was plentiful and where it was not.)

Were it not for the water conservation / dam projects along the  
Colorado -- the Colorado would still be quite wild, with flooding one  
year, and drought the next... which is the norm for the basin if left  
to itself.

Glen Canyon Dam and Hoover Dam are the most well-known, but there's  
quite an extensive system of water projects from the head-waters in  
the Rocky Mountains all the way into Baja, Mexico.  The U.S. Bureau of  
Reclamation, of the Department of the Interior oversees most of these  
projects and systems.

--
Nate Duehr
spamBeGonenateSTOPspamspamEraseMEnatetech.com



2007\10\27@015020 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Oct 26, 2007, at 8:47 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> I am sorry but what does "pink tofu" really mean?

Tofu is like, you know, such an AWSOME food.  Heathy, and like,
sustainable, and like, vegetarian.  Totally!  But it's normally
a bit, you know, like BORING looking (gag me with a spoon!)
So we dye it PINK.  Only those loser non-Californians call it
"pink" though; that's like SOOOO 90s.  We call it cerise, or
or fuschia, or Honeysuckle, depending on its exact coloration.
Cause it wouldn't be IN to be seen with tofu that didn't properly
coordinate (color-wise, ya know) like, with your clothes!

 :-)
BillW

2007\10\27@020335 by Nate Duehr

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On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:47 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 10/25/07, James Newton <KILLspamjamesnewtonspamBeGonespammassmind.org> wrote:
>> I happen to know for a fact that there are Californians in MN. They  
>> are
>> slowly being assimilated, but they hide their sandals in the closet  
>> and we
>> still ship them pink tofu (in brown paper packages) on a regular  
>> basis.
>>
>
> I am sorry but what does "pink tofu" really means? I lke Tofu very  
> much
> and it is very popular in Chinese/Japanese/Korean food. However I
> do not think I heard about "pink tofu" before. Google for "pink tofu
> California" does not really tell much either. And I have never seen
> the food on the first hit of Google for "pink tofu".

I'll hazard a guess at the original sarcastic meaning here, Xiaofan...

"Pink" regularly being considered a "girl's" color in U.S. culture.
"Tofu" being a food not typically eaten by the "average" American, but  
eaten regularly by educated folks/naturalists or other folks "closer  
to nature" shall we say, than the average person.

Mix in that there's a stereotype that that all nature-loving people in  
the U.S. are related to the 1960's "hippie" movement perhaps...

It's meant to paint a picture -- "Pink Tofu" -- a social commentary on  
a variety of things.

In James' original context, he was joking that the Californians still  
secretly ship this "pink tofu" to people who have left and are trying  
to hide in other areas of the country, because California (rightly or  
wrongly) is seen as having more than their fair share of "hippie",  
"naturalist", "granola-head", "tree-hugging" people -- and thus the  
joke is that they're secretly exporting those people to other areas of  
the country and supplying them with their much-needed "Pink Tofu" in  
secret.

Hopefully I got that right... there's a lot of subtle things missing  
in that.

I almost left out (but it'd be part of it too) that the "hippies"  
versus "normals" stereotypes also typically include the stereotype  
that the "hippies" are "left-wing" politically, and the "normals" are  
"right-wing" in these types of cultural jokes in the U.S.

--
Nate Duehr
EraseMEnatespamEraseMEnatetech.com



2007\10\27@020520 by Roger, in Bangkok

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Hhmmm .... sloppy eaters to boot, I guess :-))

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok (formerly Santa Barbara!)


On 10/27/07, William Chops Westfield <@spam@westfw@spam@spamspam_OUTmac.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2007, at 8:47 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>
> > I am sorry but what does "pink tofu" really mean?
>
> ...


... to be seen with tofu that didn't properly
coordinate (color-wise, ya know) like, with your clothes!

:-)
BillW

2007\10\27@021210 by Russell McMahon

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>> Aren't there building rules about the required roof slope
>> for that reason ?
>> There are, elsewhere. I think that that skating ring
>> collapsed in Germany last
>> winter because it was in a zone where the roofs were
>> calculated for X snow load
>> and it came out to X*3 that winter. Nearly all mountain
>> chalets etc have a very
>> pointy roof and reinforced walls (snow can push a wall in
>> when piled against it).
>> I guess lake effect exposed structures count double for
>> that.

I liked the buildings we saw in Swiss Valleys. They had a
slope on their uphill side, usually built with rocks or
solid soil, which ran in a curve up to the rooftop. From the
uphill side you essentially (term used advisedly) couldn't
see the uphill end of the building. More to the point (or
lack of one) , neither could the avalanche when it swept
over you. You still have to deal with being buried, but not
with being swept away.

Pictures somewhere if anyone interested.


       Russell

2007\10\27@073718 by Russell McMahon

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> I almost left out (but it'd be part of it too) that the
> "hippies"
> versus "normals" stereotypes also typically include the
> stereotype
> that the "hippies" are "left-wing" politically, and the
> "normals" are
> "right-wing" in these types of cultural jokes in the U.S.

And "pink" aka "pinko" is related to red leaning = having
communist or socialist sympathies.
A bit of a reach there :-).

FWIW Tofu is fine in general principle but rather suspect in
specifics. It's  a source of high grade "complete" protein
at a generally low price. BUT it has Estrogen like
components which do an excessively good job of mimicking
Estrogen's effects and so are undesirable as a major
component of one's diet in the greater order of things.
Despite this Soy based products are often and still touted
as 'the answer' (or one of many 'the answers') and 'hidden'
in foodstuffs whose customers are largely unaware of the
implications.



       Russell



2007\10\28@010213 by James Newton

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I was being funny. California has an undeserved reputation for being a place
where business meetings are conducted by people wearing beach clothes with
sandals on their feet and eating tofu, in extreme cases, pink tofu. I have
no idea where the pink tofu rumor originated, but I have personally never
seen any of it. Tofu is available but only in its base color or with the
color of the flavoring (e.g. teriyaki) added to it. I have been in some
meetings where the people were wearing sandals, so I have to admit that can
be true.

What images come to mind when someone mentions California to you, Xiaofan?
Or to people you know where you live? Cowboys? Westerns? Lovely girls in
bikinis on the beach? Huge datacenters? Constant earthquakes? I'm curious as
to how ca.us is seen by the rest of the world.

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\28@045351 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/28/07, James Newton <spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamKILLspammassmind.org> wrote:

> What images come to mind when someone mentions California to you, Xiaofan?
> Or to people you know where you live? Cowboys? Westerns? Lovely girls in
> bikinis on the beach? Huge datacenters? Constant earthquakes? I'm curious as
> to how ca.us is seen by the rest of the world.
>

I believe California is perceived here as a Sunshine state with
diversities, higher percentage of Asian populations, high-tech,
Hollywood, famous universities like Stanford and Berkeley.
I think people here tend to think California is the best place to go
in USA and it is quite different than the other parts of USA.

Earthquake? Maybe.

And the governor's English accent is a bit funny. ;-) To be honest,
I never appreciate his movies but he seems to be an ok governor.

I have not seen any real cowboys during my one year stay. I think
Texas is more connected with Cowboys.

I think the beach is so-so...

Xiaofan

2007\10\28@110809 by Mike Hord

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> I'm curious as to how ca.us is seen by the rest of the world.

I'll bite.

I have at least three views of California- I've only been once, and
then I was in the LA basin for a few days and in SFC for about
10 hours.

So, San Francisco- relaxed and groovy.  The spirit of Haight-
Ashbury lives, just not at Haight-Ashbury (I was stunned to find
a Gap at that auspicious intersection.).  A town and a people
in touch with a sense of aesthitics, art, design, beauty, and a
true sense of pride in who they are and where they live.  I have
NO trouble seeing why the city has such a reputation as a
haven for GLBT pride- I felt like San Francisco is a city that
has NO problem holding its collective head up and looking
anyone in the eye.

SoCal- in fairness this is based on my trip to LA only, but I'm
going to go ahead and lump it all together.  Feel free to shake
a finger at me and correct me.

I imagine three kinds of people in SoCal- Jameses, genuinely
concerned people with a real notion of self-responsibility,
conservation and freedom of self-determination; Soccer
Moms, who don't care who pays the real cost of their
minivan full of kids, their McMansion which must be
cooled to below 70 degrees F in the hottest part of summer,
and shopping at big-box retailers for cheap, toxic crap from
China; Plastic People who really care more about their
appearance than anything (this is probably what I imagine
LA proper to be stuffed with- think hot girls with too much
plastic surgery wearing skimpy clothes trying to become
actresses).

Third is inlanders in place like Napa- pretentious snobs who
want to believe that their little slice of Earth is as classic and
great as French wine country because it grows nice grapes.
Sort of the "new" Nouveau Riche.

Anyone who read all of this may want to judge me for my
stereotypical views, but I'm from Minnesota, and I have a
pretty good idea what everyone else thinks of Minnesotans
(doncha know?)!

Mike H.

2007\10\28@113733 by Goflo

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> Anyone who read all of this may want to judge me for my
> stereotypical views, but I'm from Minnesota, and I have a
> pretty good idea what everyone else thinks of Minnesotans
> (doncha know?)!
> Mike H.

Got your deer then?  :)

Historic Minnesota wildfire:
http://www.mnhs.org/library/tips/history_topics/21hinckley.html

No mention of chromatic tofu - Some other ignition source seems
likely.

Time for a little lunch...

best regards, Jack

2007\10\28@150251 by Jinx

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> I'm curious as to how ca.us is seen by the rest of the world

More Agrestic, less Hollywood

Those little bits of real life on Mythbusters

2007\10\28@211746 by James Newton

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-----Original Message-----
From: .....piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu [TakeThisOuTpiclist-bounces.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On Behalf Of
Mike Hord
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 08:08
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT]California wild fire

> Anyone who read all of this may want to judge me for my
> stereotypical views, but I'm from Minnesota, and I have a
> pretty good idea what everyone else thinks of Minnesotans
> (doncha know?)!

Yes, I've read Lake Wobegon...

;)

--
James.


2007\10\29@044237 by Alan B. Pearce

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...
>We call it cerise, or fuschia, or Honeysuckle, depending
>on its exact coloration. Cause it wouldn't be IN to be seen
>with tofu that didn't properly coordinate (color-wise, ya
>know) like, with your clothes!

Somehow I can just imagine Bill wandering the State in a garishly hand
painted VW microbus, guitar in hand, couple of young girls in the back ...
;)))))

2007\10\29@054134 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Third is inlanders in place like Napa- pretentious snobs who
>want to believe that their little slice of Earth is as classic
>and great as French wine country because it grows nice grapes.
>Sort of the "new" Nouveau Riche.

<VBG> Those of you who get to watch some Brit TV programs, keep an eye out
for one from the BBC called 'Oz and James Big Wine Adventure' (or something
similar) featuring James May (from the Top Gear car show) and Oz somebody, a
wine critic/writer doing a trip through the Californian wine growing area.
This is the second of their programs showing in the UK at present, the first
had them wandering through France.

The amusement part is the repartee between the pair of them as Oz tries to
instil wine appreciation into James.


'[OT]California wild fire'
2007\11\09@182004 by Gerhard Fiedler
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Nate Duehr wrote:

>>> Actually, the /real/ reason is that Southern California still hasn't
>>> rerouted 100% of the water in the South-Western USA into its
>>> territory. If they had, and irrigated the remaining (not yet
>>> irrigated) part of the state, there wouldn't be any wildfires.
>>>
>>> :)  -- or :( depending on which side of the Colorado River you  
>>> live...
>>
>> I am not so sure if this is the solution. Even if it is, can this ever
>> be possible done in a democratic country like USA because of many
>> concerns including environmental concerns?
>
> He was making a joke, Xiaofan.

Nate is right :)

I was referring to the fact that it seems that in the more populated parts
of Southern California the only green patches are where people irrigate
artificially, with some minor exceptions.

Also, there is a treaty between some Western US states about how to divide
the water from the Colorado river, and IIRC California has been using much
more than its agreed-upon share of it for quite a while, and the other
states are starting to complain louder.

Gerhard

2007\11\09@195248 by Cedric Chang

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{Quote hidden}

I recommend pumping water from Lake Michigan over the continental divide
to supply California.  The east coast has become increasingly more  
irrelevant
since the Burnator has assumed control.

Cedric

2007\11\09@195658 by Goflo

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> Also, there is a treaty between some Western US states about how to divide
> the water from the Colorado river, and IIRC California has been using much
> more than its agreed-upon share of it for quite a while, and the other
> states are starting to complain louder.

Re-stated accurately, California has received more than its quota of
Colorado River water for many years because the upstream parties did'nt need the water. That's about over, due to growth of said
parties.  Water distribution intra California is a political football, and
more of a worry than the absolute supply, at least near term.

regards, Jack

2007\11\09@200426 by M. Adam Davis

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On Nov 9, 2007 7:52 PM, Cedric Chang <TakeThisOuTccKILLspamspamspamnope9.com> wrote:
> I recommend pumping water from Lake Michigan over the continental divide
> to supply California.  The east coast has become increasingly more
> irrelevant
> since the Burnator has assumed control.

Hey now, you keep your hands off our great lakes.  We're having enough
trouble with them Canadians pumping it into bottles and then trying to
sell it back to us!  ;-)

Although I really don't worry, we had that prairie installed so the
shipping costs would simply be too high to consider.

-Adam


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Building your own house? Check out http://ubasics.com/home/

2007\11\09@211950 by 556RECON

picon face
The water level in Lake Michigan  dropped about 24" already. This has
caused  some bussiness to go out of bussiness. like marinas that were up
river a ways.  So why should we drain our  Beautiful lake so people in
california can have green grass where nature never intended it to grow.  
Let them drain lake Powell .

Recon

>
>I recommend pumping water from Lake Michigan over the continental divide
>to supply California.  The east coast has become increasingly more  
>irrelevant
>since the Burnator has assumed control.
>
>Cedric
>  
>

2007\11\10@013249 by Nate Duehr

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On Nov 9, 2007, at 5:56 PM, <.....goflospamRemoveMEcox.net> <RemoveMEgoflospamspamBeGonecox.net> wrote:

>
>> Also, there is a treaty between some Western US states about how to  
>> divide
>> the water from the Colorado river, and IIRC California has been  
>> using much
>> more than its agreed-upon share of it for quite a while, and the  
>> other
>> states are starting to complain louder.
>
> Re-stated accurately, California has received more than its quota of
> Colorado River water for many years because the upstream parties  
> did'nt need the water. That's about over, due to growth of said
> parties.  Water distribution intra California is a political  
> football, and
> more of a worry than the absolute supply, at least near term.

Even more interestingly, a researcher a couple of years ago figured  
out that a small tributary of the Colorado actually *is* in Colorado  
(previously it was believed that the Colorado river started West of  
Colorado (the state) over in Utah.

He immediately published grandiose plans for a privately-funded  
pipeline from the northeast corner of Colorado (the state) up through  
Wyoming and back into Denver, for pumping *Colorado's* share of the  
Colorado River AROUND the Rocky Mtns, over then in Wyoming, and down  
into the Denver Metropolitan area.

Right now, it looks like the guy's dream is not realistic.  But in  
theory, Colorado now also could make a claim to some of the Colorado  
River, for the first time in recent history.  (Since it's just barely  
into the state, and a small tributary, the likelihood that a) people  
aren't already taking some water out but thought they weren't on the  
Colorado River, and b) that anyone will be able to take out much water  
at that point, anyway... is very very low.

If it weren't for Glen Canyon dam and Hoover Dan, as well as the  
entire rest of the Colorado River System, managed by the Department of  
the Interior, Bureau of Reclamation -- most of Nevada and Southern  
California would be barren uninhabitable wasteland.

--
Nate Duehr
spamBeGonenate@spam@spamspam_OUTnatetech.com



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