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'[OT]240V Welder'
2007\09\21@075913 by Paul & Lynn Tyrer

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Hi All.
Could i ask a electric wiring question?

I have a UK welder 220-240v 50/60hz on a UK three prong pin, Earth(ground)
neutral and live (Hot)
I moved to the USA and brought the welder with me, no i have a problem, USA
220v consists of 2 live wires, 1 neutral and 1 ground, Besides a converter
or a step up i wanted this to be wired into the existing 220 outlet in the
barn which has a 4 prong outlet.

I have been told to wire 1 hot to the netral line of the welder, and 1 to
the existing hot and the earth can be wired as is.
I tried this and it did indeed work and welded okay, however i am not sure
if this is safe or correct and would value any opinion people have on this.
I GUESS this way the only problem would be there would be half the supply
switched and other half not.(through the on off switch on the welder) But i
plan on unplugging after use anyway.

Any help would be apreciated.

Many Thanks in advance

Paul

2007\09\21@083935 by Russell McMahon

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       BCC to Peter who may wish to comment from his USA experiences.

> I have a UK welder 220-240v 50/60hz on a UK three prong pin,
> Earth(ground)
> neutral and live (Hot)

> I have been told to wire 1 hot to the netral line of the welder, and
> 1 to
> the existing hot and the earth can be wired as is.

NZ opinion - far from the US.

This may be complete rubbish BUT I think not:

You have it right.

Based on my recent reading up on US supplies when I realised that I
didn't understand them, the US 220V supply is two identical 100 VAC
supplies from two transformer primaries. They are in phase with each
other (not at 120 degrees as in UK and NZ systems) but are presented
with one 180 degrees phase inverted wrt the other. ie When one phase's
"hot" end is positive wrt it's neutral the other phase's hot end is
negative wrt it's neutral. The neutrals are connected to each other.

Assume standard convention where windings are deemed to have a
"dotted" end and phases are in phase when compared dotted to dotted.

They are connected so that the dotted end of one winding is connected
to neutral and the undottted end of the other is connected to neutral.
This has the result of providing 2 x 110 VAC = 220 VAC when connecting
between the two "hot" ends. Which is what you did. And that is the
only way to get 220 VAC from that arrangement.

This is effectively a 220 VAC centre tapped supply with the centre tap
connected to "Neutral" which is PRESUMABLY (and I'm guessing) normally
connected to ground (perhaps by the system and perhaps by the user and
perhaps not.

TEST: If you can light a 110 VAC bulb from either hot end to ground
without the other hot end and neutral open circuit then neutral is
grounded by the system.

I personally find the above described centre tapped system somewhat
bizarre and potentially (pun vaguely intended) dangerous as a 220 VAC
device is live wrt ground when off if neutral is grounded except when
a double pole switch is used to break both hot ends at once.



           Russell


From: "Paul & Lynn Tyrer" <spam_OUTpaulTakeThisOuTspampaultyrer.com>


{Quote hidden}

2007\09\21@084405 by Martin Klingensmith

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The welder should be electrically isolated between the primary of the
transformer and the secondary so as long as you give it the correct
voltage it should be fine. You shouldn't take my word for it though.
Take the cover off of the welder and examine the wiring to be sure that
the primary wires only go through the on-off switch and then to the
primary of an isolated transformer. Also, if it was built in the last
20-30 years it should be just fine.
--
Martin K

Paul & Lynn Tyrer wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\09\21@084858 by Martin Klingensmith

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> ...
> I personally find the above described centre tapped system somewhat
> bizarre and potentially (pun vaguely intended) dangerous as a 220 VAC
> device is live wrt ground when off if neutral is grounded except when
> a double pole switch is used to break both hot ends at once.
>
>
>
>             Russell
>
>  

... which is required of n-pole circuits everywhere in the USA.

--
Martin K

2007\09\21@093429 by Howard Winter

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Martin,

(Strangely I haven't received Russell's message, only the original and this one)

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:48:54 -0400, Martin Klingensmith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

What happens with fusing for this situation?  If an overcurrent fault blows a fuse or trips a breaker, doesn't this leave one phase still live?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\21@094311 by Martin Klingensmith

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Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The fusing is done by spring loaded circuit breakers that are linked
together. If one "pops" open-circuit, the others are compelled to follow.
--
Martin K

2007\09\21@094753 by Howard Winter

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Paul,

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:55:44 +0100, Paul & Lynn Tyrer wrote:

> Hi All.
> Could i ask a electric wiring question?

No, this is for discussing airline security conspiracy theories.  :-)  Oh, all right then, go on...

{Quote hidden}

Yes, the potential (!) problem I can see is if the welder has a single pole switch or circuit breaker, or a fuse.  These would disconnect one phase only, leaving the
other one live, which is dangerous to anyone who is expecting otherwise.

On the principle of least surprise, if this is the case you should at least label it with a warning that it needs to be unplugged to isolate it.  Also if you can it would be
a Good Thing to power it via a GFCI (the American name for an RCD) so there's some protection if it does all go pear-shaped, but they're likely to be expensive at
the sort of power you'll need.

Just a thought:  howcome you took something as heavy as an arc welder with you?  I'd have thought the shipping cost would far outweigh the price of buying a
new one over there?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\21@101713 by Russell McMahon

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>> What happens with fusing for this situation?  If an overcurrent
>> fault blows a fuse or trips a breaker, doesn't this leave one phase
>> still live?

> The fusing is done by spring loaded circuit breakers that are linked
> together. If one "pops" open-circuit, the others are compelled to
> follow.


Which means that you can't use ye olde thermal fusible link fuses at
all in this arrangement (unless someone has developed ones which blow
in tandem in some manner).

Same would apply to 3 phase here.



       Russell

2007\09\21@101713 by Russell McMahon

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>> I personally find the above described centre tapped system somewhat
>> bizarre and potentially (pun vaguely intended) dangerous as a 220
>> VAC
>> device is live wrt ground when off if neutral is grounded except
>> when
>> a double pole switch is used to break both hot ends at once.

> ... which is required of n-pole circuits everywhere in the USA.

Pleased to hear it :-).

What do you consider "N" pole in this case?
In NZ this would be a single phase connection.
I imagine the equivalent would be a 400V system run off 2 x 230 VAC
phases which are at 120 degrees to each other - but very little is run
that way. Some stoves have 2 phase input but they use the 2 phases as
separate 230 VAC supplies. Once you go over 230 VAC here you usually
go to full 3 phase 400 V.



       Russell

2007\09\21@102914 by Paul & Lynn Tyrer

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Hi all.
Many many thanks for the reply, I have the mig welder or at least the outlet
for the welder on a double pole 240v 30 amp breaker. The welder does only
have an on/off switch for the live(UK Brown) wire, and so the other half
would indeed be hot if it was left plugged in.(which it wont be)In fact when
the electric is not in use in the barn it is isolated from within the house,
PARANOIA on my behalf.I have already taken the inline fuse (UK PLUG) off and
rewired it to the 4 prong usa plug.I guess the circit is protected by the
breaker but the applianace will not be. The story behind the move and the
shipping is a long one. but this is a permanent move and therefore all my
tools and my favourite antique car was bundled ina 20ft container. The
welder i bought about 10 years ago, cost me an arma and a leg so to speak
and i figured a replacement would be about 1000USD so i just filled space in
the container, the total shipping was aproximately ?3000 door to door
supposedly but i ended up picking it up local to me in the USA.Looking back
on it now i had no sense and now no money, but ............

Thanks again for all the responses and help. i do apreciate it.

Regards

Paul

Oh by the way Airline conspiracy theories. How come it costs me now the same
price to fly home as it would to ship the welder in the first place. And
postage to and from is crazy too but thats a different matter........







{Original Message removed}

2007\09\21@104305 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 02:17:16 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Except that I've see 3 phase systems that had a fuse on each phase, and one on Neutral as well.  Quite some time ago, admittedly!  I'm sure it wouldn't be allowed
by the current (!) regulations.  At one time single-phase domestic installations had a fuse on Neutral as well as Live, but that means that if the Neutral fuse blows
alone the circuit is still live, so it's been banned for many years.  Some still exist, though!  You can usually spot them because they are a cast-iron enclosure with
the main switch arranged so that you can only open the lid with it in the OFF position - it gets in the way of the lid when it's on.  So this means the fuses are
already disconnected when you pull them out - something that was lost when the later, bakelite, fuseboards came out.  But I digress... (no change there, then!)

Anyway, the problem here is that the welder was designed for UK standards, and using it on the US system is (a) probably not allowed and (b) possibly dangerous,
if its own circuit interrupters are single pole.  This would include the main switch, fuses if any, and thermal and electric circuit breakers (most welders have both).  
Basically the only way to make is safe is to unplug it.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\21@123706 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:55 AM 9/21/2007, Paul & Lynn Tyrer wrote:
>Hi All.
>Could i ask a electric wiring question?
>
>I have a UK welder 220-240v 50/60hz on a UK three prong pin, Earth(ground)
>neutral and live (Hot)
>I moved to the USA and brought the welder with me, no i have a problem, USA
>220v consists of 2 live wires, 1 neutral and 1 ground, Besides a converter
>or a step up i wanted this to be wired into the existing 220 outlet in the
>barn which has a 4 prong outlet.
>
>I have been told to wire 1 hot to the netral line of the welder, and 1 to
>the existing hot and the earth can be wired as is.
>I tried this and it did indeed work and welded okay, however i am not sure
>if this is safe or correct and would value any opinion people have on this.
>I GUESS this way the only problem would be there would be half the supply
>switched and other half not.(through the on off switch on the welder) But i
>plan on unplugging after use anyway.

As others have mentioned, this is should be perfectly OK except for
the mains disconnect switch.  Change that switch to a 2-pole version
if it makes you feel better.

Mains frequency is 60Hz instead of 50Hz but that won't be a problem.

Sneaking a side question in here if I can:

I've recently decided to learn to use my cheapo MIG welder.  This is
a decidedly consumer unit (120Vac input) but can handle both
flux-core and standard wire (with shielding gas).

Question: can I use straight CO2 as a shielding gas?  Or is it best
to use something that has Argon in it?

The little bit of MIG welding I've done so far (not much) isn't very
good.  Sort of the "Gob And Grind" work my dad used to just hate to
see.  Practice will make that better but I'm wondering if I would be
getting better results if I either added shielding gas to the
existing flux-core wire or just change to straight wire with
shielding gas.  Should mention hat I'm working with steel.  No plans
to mess with aluminum welding for quite some time to come.

I used to be pretty darned good at straight gas welding and somewhere
between OK and reasonable at straight Arc welding (stick welding) but
this whole MIG thing is completely new to me.

The reason I'd like to use straight CO2 if possible is that I already
have a couple of small CO2 bottles that I use for sending string down
long runs of conduit (Jet-Line rig).  Simple matter to adapt the
Quick-Connect fitting for the JetLine bottles to the pressure regulator.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerKILLspamspam@spam@planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2007\09\21@133310 by Paul & Lynn Tyrer

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Hi,
I use C02 and have done for all my mild steel. I use the mig for panel work
and chasis work on cars,trucks etc. although i am not a professional i have
welded more things than i can count using this welder and CO2. I get the
bottle from a party outlet place. Such as beer kegs etc. I have had probems
with copper sizing for the rod and speed, but practice and knowing the
welder helps. I also use wd40 to spray on the copper it seems to repel the
moisture and helps feed it through the tip better.
I am sure there are others here will help out more but thats what works for
me. There used to be a excellent mig welding book by Haynes (same as the car
repair people) that showed all the common mistakes and how to fix them.I
think i paid ?15 for it a few years back.
I found this site real quick and it helps with the gas thing, My dad taught
me and as it works for me i havent changed the recipe so to speak.

http://www.welding.com/technical_welding_tips.shtml

Hope this helps

Paul

{Original Message removed}

2007\09\23@100204 by peter green

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>
> This is effectively a 220 VAC centre tapped supply with the centre tap
> connected to "Neutral" which is PRESUMABLY (and I'm guessing) normally
> connected to ground (perhaps by the system and perhaps by the user and
> perhaps not.
>
>  
Indeed the center tap is connected to ground as part of the system
> I personally find the above described centre tapped system somewhat
> bizarre and potentially (pun vaguely intended) dangerous as a 220 VAC
> device is live wrt ground when off if neutral is grounded except when
> a double pole switch is used to break both hot ends at once.
>
>  
I don't see it as any more bizzare than a 240/415 three phase system.

It's no more dangerous than a 240V system with unpolarised plugs like
large parts of western europe use. Most modern appliances have double
pole switching anyway. Not that I would EVER reccomend using an
appliance switch as a means of isolation for working on an appliance.


2007\09\23@100443 by peter green

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Paul & Lynn Tyrer wrote:
> Hi all.
> Many many thanks for the reply, I have the mig welder or at least the outlet
> for the welder on a double pole 240v 30 amp breaker. The welder does only
> have an on/off switch for the live(UK Brown) wire, and so the other half
> would indeed be hot if it was left plugged in.(which it wont be)In fact when
> the electric is not in use in the barn it is isolated from within the house,
> PARANOIA on my behalf.I have already taken the inline fuse (UK PLUG) off and
> rewired it to the 4 prong usa plug.I guess the circit is protected by the
> breaker but the applianace will not be.
It would probablly be a good idea to change the breaker down to a 15A
GFCI one.


2007\09\25@071202 by Howard Winter

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Peter,

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:02:00 +0100, peter green wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Well there is the point that its only function is to provide a higher voltage, whereas a 3-phase system also produces more torque from motors of a given power,
smoother running thereof, and also balances the load from the supply.  Are US generators three phase, by the way?  I'd always assumed they were, and that the
"two phase" scheme was implemented at the consumer end using one phase from the supply and center-tapping it.

> It's no more dangerous than a 240V system with unpolarised plugs like
> large parts of western europe use.

I don't now which parts you are referring to, but the only place I'm aware of that used 240V was the UK, which has always had polarised 3-pin plugs.  Most of the
Continent used 220V, and some of them have sockets with an Earth pin which enforced polarisation, but I realise that others don't.  OK, I'm being picky on the
voltage - we're all nominally 230V now!  :-)

> Most modern appliances have double pole switching anyway.

Depends where you are.  In the UK ALL devices have a fuse in the live line (in the plugtop), and most wall sockets have a single pole switch, so it is imperative that
the connection is the right way round so that something that appears to be dead actually is.  I've known of houses where the lights were wired with the
wall-switch in the neutral line (I have no idea why), and I know of a couple of people who've had shocks because the weren't expecting that!  Obviously the
correct way to work on lights would be with the circuit disconnected at the distribution board, but I've seen professional electricians in the USA wiring in a new
ceiling fan with the circuit live.  However the gang-boss did test the wires and ascetain the switch operation, and tape it in the off position, before allowing his lads
to do the work.

> Not that I would EVER reccomend using an
> appliance switch as a means of isolation for working on an appliance.

No indeed, but some people are more careless!  (As I've said before in this place, I know personally of three people who have been killed by being careless with
electricity - two of them teenagers).

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\25@132520 by Jeff Latta

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All I've ever used with MIG is CO2.  If you're having trouble making a
good weld the problem is likely in your settings.
When properly set the MIG process is quick, easy, and clean as there is
no flux to chip off.  Also, 120 volt machines don't have much capacity
and therefore are only useful for light sheet metal.
--Jeff

Dwayne Reid wrote:
> I've recently decided to learn to use my cheapo MIG welder.  This is
> a decidedly consumer unit (120Vac input) but can handle both
> flux-core and standard wire (with shielding gas).
>
> Question: can I use straight CO2 as a shielding gas?  Or is it best
> to use something that has Argon in it?
>
>  

2007\09\25@134519 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Dwayne Reid
>Sent: 21 September 2007 17:37
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [OT]240V Welder
>
>
>
>I've recently decided to learn to use my cheapo MIG welder.  This is
>a decidedly consumer unit (120Vac input) but can handle both
>flux-core and standard wire (with shielding gas).
>
>Question: can I use straight CO2 as a shielding gas?  Or is it best
>to use something that has Argon in it?
>

CO2 works adequately on mild steel.  Argoshield (CO2+Argon) works better (less spatter), but is more expensive.


{Quote hidden}

The main weak point of cheap MIG welders is nearly always the wire feed.  The mechanism itself often doesn't grip the wire very well without excessive pressure, and the motor controllers can give very inconsistent speeds.

Cleanliness is next to godliness apparently, and never more so with MIG.  With gas you can weld just about anything to anything, a bit of rust barely affects it.  With MIG even a little surface rust, oil or a few flakes of paint will help you produce a weld that gives your workpiece the appearance of an Albatross bowel movement.  If the wire in the MIG has started to get rusty (e.g. from storage in damp location), discard it.

Getting a really good ground connection to the workpiece is also very important (just as it is with stick).

I'm guessing this is a new machine, but always replace the tips when they get worn.  The hole tends to becomes oval as it wears and leads to all sorts of welding problems.

Regards

Mike



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2007\09\25@145821 by peter green

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> Well there is the point that its only function is to provide a higher voltage, whereas a 3-phase system also produces more torque from motors of a given power,
> smoother running thereof, and also balances the load from the supply.  Are US generators three phase, by the way?  I'd always assumed they were, and that the
> "two phase" scheme was implemented at the consumer end using one phase from the supply and center-tapping it.
>  
>  
The high voltage system is nearly always three phase. From what I can
gather most domestic supplies in the US are fed from a single phase
stepdown transformer with a center tapped secondry. Larger suplies often
have a delta wired three phase secondry with a center tap on one of the
windings (so you get two lives arround a grounded neutral and a third
live that can be used for three phase motors and 240V single phase loads).


2007\09\25@182318 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:58 PM 9/25/2007, peter green wrote:

> >
>The high voltage system is nearly always three phase. From what I can
>gather most domestic supplies in the US are fed from a single phase
>stepdown transformer with a center tapped secondry. Larger suplies often
>have a delta wired three phase secondry with a center tap on one of the
>windings (so you get two lives arround a grounded neutral and a third
>live that can be used for three phase motors and 240V single phase loads).

I've never been happy working on gear with that
configuration.  There's a good reason why they call that 3rd line the
'stinger'.  Ouch!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2007\09\25@183828 by Dwayne Reid

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At 11:44 AM 9/25/2007, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

>The main weak point of cheap MIG welders is nearly always the wire
>feed.  The mechanism itself often doesn't grip the wire very well
>without excessive pressure, and the motor controllers can give very
>inconsistent speeds.

I seem to have lucked out here - the wire feed actually seems OK.  My
ears say that the motor speed stays about the same regardless of
whether I am feeding wire into thin air or actually welding.


>Cleanliness is next to godliness apparently, and never more so with
>MIG.  With gas you can weld just about anything to anything, a bit
>of rust barely affects it.  With MIG even a little surface rust, oil
>or a few flakes of paint will help you produce a weld that gives
>your workpiece the appearance of an Albatross bowel movement.  If
>the wire in the MIG has started to get rusty (e.g. from storage in
>damp location), discard it.

Sorta figured out the "cleanliness" aspect pretty quick.  You are
right - I can get away with a lot more crap around the weld area with
both Gas and Stick welding.  Not with this toy MIG unit, though.

Wire seems clean - no signs of rust even though this rig has been
sitting around for several months.


>Getting a really good ground connection to the workpiece is also
>very important (just as it is with stick).


Yep - no problem with ground connection.


>I'm guessing this is a new machine, but always replace the tips when
>they get worn.  The hole tends to becomes oval as it wears and leads
>to all sorts of welding problems.

See?  Yet another tidbit I didn't know.  Yeah - I've got packs of
spare tips in all 3 sizes of wire I plan to use.  I'll keep an eye on
the hole shape and sloppiness (or lack thereof).


Many thanks!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2007\09\27@051528 by Howard Winter

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Dwayne,

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:18:51 -0600, Dwayne Reid wrote:

> At 12:58 PM 9/25/2007, peter green wrote:
>
> > >
> >The high voltage system is nearly always three phase. From what I can
> >gather most domestic supplies in the US are fed from a single phase
> >stepdown transformer with a center tapped secondry. Larger suplies often
> >have a delta wired three phase secondry with a center tap on one of the
> >windings (so you get two lives arround a grounded neutral and a third
> >live that can be used for three phase motors and 240V single phase loads).

So, interestingly, that makes it more dangerous than a 240/415V three phase system, where the only way to get the full wallop is to get across two phases.  With
the scheme you describe, the third phase is at a much higher voltage with respect to earth than eith any other as far as I can see, because it has one-and-a-half
windings involved.  I'm not up to the maths, but it seems that a phase-3 to earth shock would be something over 300V.

> I've never been happy working on gear with that
> configuration.  There's a good reason why they call that 3rd line the
> 'stinger'.  Ouch!

I reckon it would do rather more than sting!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\27@164110 by peter green

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> So, interestingly, that makes it more dangerous than a 240/415V three phase system, where the only way to get the full wallop is to get across two phases.  With
> the scheme you describe, the third phase is at a much higher voltage with respect to earth than eith any other as far as I can see, because it has one-and-a-half
> windings involved.  I'm not up to the maths, but it seems that a phase-3 to earth shock would be something over 300V.
>  
>  
Your guestimate is somewhat wrong, it is actually about 208V.


2007\09\27@164631 by peter green

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> So, interestingly, that makes it more dangerous than a 240/415V three phase system, where the only way to get the full wallop is to get across two phases.  With
> the scheme you describe, the third phase is at a much higher voltage with respect to earth than eith any other as far as I can see, because it has one-and-a-half
> windings involved.  I'm not up to the maths, but it seems that a phase-3 to earth shock would be something over 300V.
>  
>  
to clarify my previous response to this yes there is one and a half
windings but because of the phase angles they partially cancel rather
than partially adding.

draw an equalateral triangle. mark off the center of one side and draw a
line from the point you just added to the corner opposite. That diagram
will give you the relationships between the different voltages.

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