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'[OT] soic to DIP adapters'
1999\08\20@125303 by Bob Drzyzgula

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As I sit here wire-wrapping up a little perfboard to
connect a PLCC-68 socket stuffed into eight little strips
of break-to-length wire-wrap SIP socket, to a pair of
2x17-pin dual row wire-wrap headers so that I can use
some ribbon cable with IDC connectors I bought for floppy
cables to carry the signals over to my main prototyping
board, which has a bus & three-hole solder pad pattern
so I can't put a PLCC in it (yeah, I know that my real
mistake was the choice of protoboard), I note that:

The main *cheap* form of this kind of thing that I've
seen are the "Surfboards" made by Capital Advanced
Technologies and sold by Digi-key, Allied Electronics
and others. They have a bunch of types, maybe 40 or
so listed at Digi-key, that will adapt SOIC, TSOP, SOT,
SSOP, and some tiny PLCCs out to a SIP-style card
edge. Depending on the configuration, they cost from
about $1 US for an SOT-323, to $7.50 US for a PLCC-20.
But: You still have to solder the microbes to the boards,
they're SIP, not DIP, and they have a nasty upper
bound of 20 pins or so.

One can usually work around a PLCC and SOJ, 'cause sockets
are pretty easy to get both in solder tail and surface
mount. But even PLCCs and SOJ are disappearing, and a lot
of cool stuff is only coming out in fine-pitch TSOP and
QFP, and even BGA.

Emulation Tech. makes more than PLCC, they cover a pretty
broad range, including higher-end TSOP, BGA, and most
styles of QFP. But you can't touch one of their adapters
for much less than $25 US, and a lot of them with the higher
pin-counts go up into the hundreds of dollars. The
story is pretty much the same with others in that market
space, including Aries, Ironwood, ISI and even Mil-Max.

I guess that, beyond making our jobs harder, this trend
is severely raising the threshold for students and others
to get get started in electronics, which is a concern.

Nonetheless, this is an excellent area for the application
of my .sig. To the extent that it is easier and/or cheaper
for IC manufacturers to make these parts that are
so hard to prototype with, they will continue to do so
as long as it does not cause them any difficulties. If the
parts sell at decent volumes and turn a good profit for
them, then there is no reason for them to change that
strategy. However, if they see themselves starting to
lose market share to companies that *do* provide the
packages appropriate for hand-prototyping, then they will
seriously consider the implications of this and may return
to making those packages themselves, or they could provide
low-cost package-specific adapters to their customers to
moderate the problem. But seriously, this probably would
only happen if they began to get the sense that not having
a DIP package put them at a competitive disadvantage.

I would take it as an open question whether this
competitive advantage would ever exist. However, if
engineers go out of their way to create their own
system to prototype with those new packages, then
this would, in my opinion, only serve to make it less
likely that would see more DIP packages again, because
there would be less of a downside to the strategy
of selling only fine-pitch, surface mount packages.

Whether this means that one throws up one's hands and
just finds some way to deal with it, or whether one
actively avoids parts that are unavilable in easily
prototyped packages (not always possible, of course),
depends on how one sees the equations and the liklihoods
involved.

Just my $0.02... well maybe it was $0.03 worth, the
meter ran kind of long.

--Bob

On Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:38:48AM -0600, Harrison Cooper wrote:
> Aries (I think) already makes these adapters.  SOIC to DIP.
> Emulation Technology makes PLCC in ZIF to DIP
>
> but these are not cheap.....

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1999\08\20@135329 by Harold Hallikainen

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On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:38:48 -0600 Harrison Cooper <.....hcooperKILLspamspam@spam@ES.COM>
writes:
>Aries (I think) already makes these adapters.  SOIC to DIP.
>Emulation Technology makes PLCC in ZIF to DIP
>
>but these are not cheap.....

       For prototyping, I buy adaptors from Ironwood Electronics...
Again, not cheap.

Harold



Harold Hallikainen
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Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
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1999\08\20@163554 by William K. Borsum

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At 09:38 AM 8/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Aries (I think) already makes these adapters.  SOIC to DIP.
>Emulation Technology makes PLCC in ZIF to DIP
>
>but these are not cheap.....

Amen.
Try EDI in Las Vegas.  Talk to Milos.  No 800- number, and don't know the
new area code.

Their DIP to SOIC includes a socket arrangement so the main part can be
unplugged from the part that stays with the board.
You must specifically ask for permanently soldered variety--but it is about
25% cheaper.  Still $30 to $45 for an 8-pin adapter, and $120 when you get
up to the 20 pin size (eg 16C54's.)  They have adapters for everything!

Kelly


William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<.....borsumKILLspamspam.....dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\20@170430 by Scott Dattalo

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On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, William K. Borsum wrote:

> At 09:38 AM 8/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >Aries (I think) already makes these adapters.  SOIC to DIP.
> >Emulation Technology makes PLCC in ZIF to DIP
> >
> >but these are not cheap.....
>
> Amen.
> Try EDI in Las Vegas.  Talk to Milos.  No 800- number, and don't know the
> new area code.
>
> Their DIP to SOIC includes a socket arrangement so the main part can be
> unplugged from the part that stays with the board.
> You must specifically ask for permanently soldered variety--but it is about
> 25% cheaper.  Still $30 to $45 for an 8-pin adapter, and $120 when you get
> up to the 20 pin size (eg 16C54's.)  They have adapters for everything!

If you're regularly making PCB's for other things then you may wish to
throw in a couple of these adaptors with your proto runs while you're at
it. The extra cost is not that significant (especially when compared to
the cost charged by Emulation Tech). If you have a gerber editor, then you
can easily stamp several of these puppies. That way your original PCB
database will not even be affected. The down side of course, is you have
to wait for a new proto type to create a new adapter...

1999\08\20@225608 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 02:03:17PM -0700, Scott Dattalo wrote:
>
> If you're regularly making PCB's for other things then you may wish to
> throw in a couple of these adaptors with your proto runs while you're at
> it. The extra cost is not that significant (especially when compared to
> the cost charged by Emulation Tech). If you have a gerber editor, then you
> can easily stamp several of these puppies. That way your original PCB
> database will not even be affected. The down side of course, is you have
> to wait for a new proto type to create a new adapter...

This is what makes the most sense, I think. It is certainly
consistant with Andy's POV that one might as well not
bother any more scrounging for things still available in
DIP packages; among other reasons, anyone who takes this
approach will inevitably be left behind on the technology
curve (taking the pessimistic view on my previous post). On
the other hand, unless one can (as I take it Andy can)
afford to make project-specific prototype boards at the
front end of each project (Advanced Circuits *is* very
inexpensive, but it is still hard to get a run of anything
that costs less than a couple of hundred dollars -- out
of range for many of us) one will probably have to resort
to 0.1"x0.1" perfboard work of some sort or another.

While what Scott suggests is a good idea, I think that
this is the place where Wagner's suggestion comes in.
As he points out, there are very many people on this list
who are quite capable of designing SMT-to-DIP adapters of
just about any sort. It would not seem so hard to do this,
but it does take a little effort and time and runs the risk
of error. Rather than each of us re-inventing the wheel over
and over again, it might be useful if people who have
stock little designs of this sort could contribute them
to a central repository of such things; a Gerber exchange
if you will.  That way, if one has a run of boards coming
up, one could grab one or two of these designs out of
the repository and paste them into your board (assuming,
as Scott points out, that you have a Gerber editor, or
that your board house can paste them in for you when they
panelize your board). I'd be happy to collect those
into an anonymous ftp directory if more than one or two
people say they'll contribute, and I might even write
up an actual web page with http links to those files... ;-)

Too bad there isn't  such a straightforward way to
exchange extras of the actual adapter boards.

--Bob

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1999\08\21@114828 by Andy Kunz

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>>I use AMP connectors from Digi-Key to allow use of a DIP device (either a
>>JW PIC or the Mathias) on a SMT board.  Use a 20-pin for an 18, and a 30
>>for a 28.  If you need the p/n, holler.
>
>Part numbers would be nice--I'm having trouble picturing this.

I only had this available right handy:

       Use A3253-ND for the DIP side of a 28-pin device.

The mating one is A3252 I think.  Use the same "family" for 18 pins (it's a
20-pin connector.

Didn't have a DK catalog handy on this machine.

Andy

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1999\08\21@153218 by Thomas McGahee

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Wouldn't it make sense for the IC manufacturer to stock
a bunch of inexpensive "converter boards" that they
could use to solder in their own itty bitty ICs
ON DEMAND? The user might have to pay for this
service, but it would greatly ease the prototyping
situation. I imagine it would not be hard at all
for an IC company to set up such a DIP conversion
station where a few workers would solder the
requested ICs to their respective DIP boards. It
might even become company policy to produce a certain
number of DIP-converted ICs and keep them in stock
whenever a new IC becomes available. As the stock
became depleted they could determine what kind of
demand they have for that particular IC in its
DIP-converted form, and adjust the stock accordingly.

This is a win-win situation for both the IC manufacturer
and the buyer. The manufacturer is going to sell
thousands of their "regular" itty bitty  ICs for
every one they mount on a DIP or SIP converter board
that the designer can then use to evaluate and prototype
the end product. Even though the demand for the
DIP-converted IC will be very very small compared to
the total number of that IC produced and sold, still
they would not have those BIG sales without first
having the product designed into an actual product.
And so it makes great sense for the IC manufacturer
to make it easy to design their ICs into a product.
That design process involves the building of test
circuits and prototypes. Any company that provides the
engineer with products they can easily breadboard will
be way ahead of the game.

And if ONE company started to do this and met with
great success, then the others would probably end up
doing it, too.

Since the manufacturer would be buying the DIP converters
in very large volume, their added cost would be
reasonably small, and they could simply pass that cost
on to the buyer.... or absorb the cost just as they do
now when they provide us with free samples.

Maybe some company like MAXIM might consider doing such
a thing for the sake of keeping their customers happy
and coming back for more.

Fr. Tom McGahee

1999\08\23@104140 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Tom Handley wrote:
>    Wagner, if we could do adapters for $1 in single qty, I would sell my
> house to raise startup capital ;-)
>    There are adapters but they are relatively expensive considering you
> still have to solder the SOIC, etc, to the adapter. Then there are `older'
> guys like me who have difficulty soldering at 0.050" and below ;-)
>    - Tom

Tom, actual market price is not only based on production cost (read here
lots of things, as quantity, production site, general expenses), but on
"what the customer is willing to pay". If what the market wants to pay
doesn't generate producer's profit, it will not go to the market, except
if they are alone in the market, then they fix the price.  Unfortunately
I am forced to say that a $80 adapter is a gross stealing.  You can't
find a general purpose 8 bits microcontroller costing $80, why? because
it will not sell when the market average price is around $4.

A whole PC minitower case with front panel (injected molded), leds,
switches, screws, power supply, wires, connectors, metal cuts and all,
cost less than $35, and it is not only by the fact that it is produced
in Taiwan and in millions, but also because if they do it by $100 nobody
will buy it, since the competitor will sell by $40.

A whole PC pentium motherboard fully component assembled (except by the
pentium and memory chips), tested, (how many layers?), several
connectors and all, cost less than $80.

Technologically speaking, again, $80 for a converter is a stealing, the
producer knows it and he is laughing at us discussing this subject. A
sensible and low cost way to produce a spring action contacts for even
.5mm pitch, with the 2sq inch board to DIP pins could not cost more than
$2 if produced in 10 thousand or more units.

Probably a nice solution for the spring contact would be a conductive
flexible glue, like silicon saturated with copper or silver powder,
using a stencil technique to deposit little drops of this glue directly
over the pcb .5mm pitch pads, will work exactly as a pressure pad to
receive the smd chip.  Some pressure over the chip against the flexible
"rubber contact" will hold the chip in place with a nice contact.  A one
Ohm resistance between the chip and the adapter is too much for general
analog/digital use?  I believe a nice mixing of silver powder can
generate a small ball with much less resistance.

What you guys think about it?

1999\08\23@120613 by Thomas McGahee

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PICsters,

Having an inexpensive DIP converter for surface mount parts
to be soldered onto is one good solution to the problem
of prototyping surface mount components.

I was thinking about this, and wondered if there might not
be a slightly more expensive, but more flexible answer.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a re-useable surface mount
to DIP converter that was SOLDERLESS, so you could then
eventually remove the IC and use it elsewhere. The
re-useability of the converter would mean that you could
get by with just a few of the devices during the
design stage of a project.

What I envision would be a carrier that would have the
surface mount pads gold plated for corrosion resistance.
The IC would be held in place by a snap-on top that would
apply pressure to the IC package AND to the IC leads.
The leads would be held down by a strip of hard rubber
or some other means such as soft plastic over metal
that would cause the leads of the IC to be pressed up
against the gold plated pads.

There are some structural issues involved. It might be
neccesary to use a thicker than normal PC board so that
the necessary forces can be developed without flexing
the board too much, or the clip can be made to anchor
itself through holes or slots punched in the pc board.

I would think that there would be a reasonable market
for such a device if it could be made at a decent price.
One thing is for sure: the prices we currently have to
pay for dip converters are ridiculous.

Fr. Tom McGahee

1999\08\23@122042 by Andy Kunz

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>I was thinking about this, and wondered if there might not
>be a slightly more expensive, but more flexible answer.
>Wouldn't it be nice to have a re-useable surface mount
>to DIP converter that was SOLDERLESS, so you could then
>eventually remove the IC and use it elsewhere. The

Aries makes them, I have one.

They cost $100 for one half of it, almost as much for the other IIRC.

I made an adapter so I can use it to burn PIC chips with my
Parallax/Carmacon programmer.

Andy

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1999\08\23@131421 by Bob Drzyzgula

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Aries does make something like this. You need the socket
itself: http://www.arieselec.com/products/10015.pdf as
well as an adapter plate:
http://www.arieselec.com/products/10016.pdf.

I have a couple of those at work. They are expensive and
they are huge, but they work. I'd love something smaller
and cheapter that works.

--Bob

On Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 12:08:18PM -0400, Thomas McGahee wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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1999\08\23@142559 by Mark Walsh

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>
> Tom, actual market price is not only based on production cost (read here
> lots of things, as quantity, production site, general expenses), but on
> "what the customer is willing to pay". If what the market wants to pay
> doesn't generate producer's profit, it will not go to the market, except
> if they are alone in the market, then they fix the price.  Unfortunately
> I am forced to say that a $80 adapter is a gross stealing.  You can't
> find a general purpose 8 bits microcontroller costing $80, why? because
> it will not sell when the market average price is around $4.
>

I don't see this as stealing at all.  No one is forced to buy these
adaptors.  The time to create my own adaptor for programming chips would be
much more expensive than the cost of the Emulation Tech. parts.  The price
isn't a function of their costs so much as a function of the value to me.
While they are pricey, I don't see them as being unreasonably so.

The great thing about our system is that you can create your own adaptor,
undercut their prices, dominate the market, and make lots of money.

Or maybe not.

Mark Walsh

1999\08\23@154722 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:23:09AM -0000, Mark Walsh wrote:
>
> I don't see this as stealing at all.  No one is forced to buy these
> adaptors.  The time to create my own adaptor for programming chips would be
> much more expensive than the cost of the Emulation Tech. parts.  The price
> isn't a function of their costs so much as a function of the value to me.
> While they are pricey, I don't see them as being unreasonably so.
>
> The great thing about our system is that you can create your own adaptor,
> undercut their prices, dominate the market, and make lots of money.
>
> Or maybe not.
>
> Mark Walsh

This is exactly right. One thing I do notice about places
like Emulation Tech is the size of their catalogs. Even
just a simple listing of all the part numbers runs for pages.
How many IPC-standard package outlines are there? How many
can reasonably be adapted into a DIP or PGA format?
So if any of us were to go into the business of manufacturing
adapters, which packages would we do? Probably SOIC for
sure, because that's where the biggest loss is to the
low-volume developer. SOIC is also reasonably easy because
you can have just a few sizes that will fit a wide range
of parts, just by underutilizing the parts. But what about
SSOP, TSSOP, QFP, TQFP, BGA, etc? How many designs would need
to be done, how many parts would have to be inventoried?
If you just pick off the easy designs, would that be enough
to generate a steady demand, or would most people go to the
Emulation Techs of the world because there they don't have
to wonder if the part they need will be available?
What are the costs of creating, documenting, validating and
maintaining the specs? How much would it cost to offer a
waranty? What are the costs associated with holding inventory?
There is of course much more to a business like this than
simply having one batch of boards made.

One reason that we can individually have such parts made
for ourselves at such a low cost is that so many of the
*real* costs are hidden or nominally allocated to other
tasks. If you work in a small contract shop, you might
design an adapter as part of your effort on a single
contract. Would you bill this to overhead or would you
charge the design time it back directly to the contract?
If you need ten of an adapter and get 40 made because
that's where the price break is, do you think of your
per-adapter cost as one tenth of the bill or as one
fortieth of the bill? If you are a hobbiest, then the
calcuation of costs can be very messed up, because one's
own time would normally carry no direct value in the
calculation, at least in the sense that there wouldn't be
any identifiable, out-of-pocket monetary cost associated
with the hours of labor you spend on your hobby.

This is why, personally, I think that it makes more sense
to collect together designs and techniques for making
adapters, and have them available as a sort of public
domain knowledge base. If people would want to paste
one into the Gerbers for some board they are having
made, then great. If somebody does this and then tells
the list that they've got maybe a couple dozen of these
available in case anyone needs one, and that they'd like
maybe $3 to cover their associated costs, then even better.
If someone can think of some low-overhead way to act as
a clearing-house for the boards that individuals make this
way, then fantastic, especially if it can be kept mostly
on a barter basis.

But personally, I think that setting up shop as a
cut-rate adapter vendor is likely to be a more difficult
endevor than it might initially appear.

--Bob

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1999\08\26@102928 by Tom Handley

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  Wagner, I was thinking of those DIP-SOIC adapters where you have to
solder the SOIC. I think they were around 6-$10 depending on size. This
is single qty.

  If you are talking about sockets, that's another story. They are
expensive. Your idea about replacing a spring contact sounds interesting
but it depends on the application. It seems to me that there would still
be too much resistance for many applications. The expensive sockets are
intended as universal test sockets. The conductive rubber approach would
limit it's application. This is really outside of my expertise but I was
wondering what they use in Ball Grid Arrays? Can those `conductive bumps'
be applied to a socket and at what cost?

  - Tom

At 10:39 AM 8/23/99 -0400, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1999\08\26@110945 by Adam Davis

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I've heard they have test and programming sockets at a huge expense.  I've also
heard of a less expensive methed, but requires some specialized materials:

Think of a rubber pad, about the same width and length of the BGA, and about
1-5mm thick.  The rubber pad is conductive vertically (through the pad) but not
horizontally(along the lendth and width of it).  Place the pad on a pcb with the
bga pattern on it, and press the bga against the pad.  Assuming it's all lined
up, you're all set.

I've seen strips of rubber which are used in older calcs to connect the pcb with
the lcd.  I assume the rubber pad has the same pronciples...

-Adam

Tom Handley wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\31@043009 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Adam, I really don't have experience here. The conductive rubber that
is typically found in keypads/keyboards, etc, has too much resistance. As
far as BGAs, I could look into it but I was hoping that someone would
speak up and give the details. My `gut feeling' is that there is a good
reason this technology is not being used in test and programming sockets.

  - Tom

At 11:07 AM 8/26/99 -0400, Adam Davis wrote:
>I've heard they have test and programming sockets at a huge expense.  I've
also
>heard of a less expensive methed, but requires some specialized materials:
>
>Think of a rubber pad, about the same width and length of the BGA, and about
>1-5mm thick.  The rubber pad is conductive vertically (through the pad)
but not
>horizontally(along the lendth and width of it).  Place the pad on a pcb
with the
>bga pattern on it, and press the bga against the pad.  Assuming it's all
lined
>up, you're all set.
>
>I've seen strips of rubber which are used in older calcs to connect the
pcb with
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1999\08\31@065438 by Bob Drzyzgula

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Doesn't uChip's ProMate II PIC programmer use an
arrangement like this for the socket modules?

--Bob

On Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 09:33:40AM -0700, Tom Handley wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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1999\08\31@104824 by Adam Davis

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I followed a discussion on comp.arch.embedded about prototyping BGAs, on whihc
someone mentioned a test socket which used elastomeric contacts.  I must have
translated this to 'rubber' in my mind.  My first comment was aimed at the
rubber used to connect the LCD and pcb, not the keypads.  I have only run across
it a few times, and manufacturers use ribbon cables mostly.  I did fix a watch
recently wich used this rubber strip to connect the lcd to the pcb.  At any
rate, when this message popped up, the closest thing to his description that I
had dealt with was the lcd-pcb rubber connector.

The message about the elastomeric test socket can be found here:
x24.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=384414864&search=thread&CONTEXT=936109849.97609
3336&HIT_CONTEXT=936109055.974651538&HIT_NUM=126&hitnum=6

(yes, my mail program autowraps, so you'll need to copy both parts (without
spaces) into your browser...)

-Adam

Tom Handley wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\31@110921 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Adam Davis wrote:
>
> I followed a discussion on comp.arch.embedded about prototyping BGAs, on whihc
> someone mentioned a test socket which used elastomeric contacts.  I must have
> translated this to 'rubber' in my mind.  My first comment was aimed at the
> rubber used to connect the LCD and pcb, not the keypads. [snip]

I thought to use some of those *zebra strip* (as we know its name), but
I was not sure about its resistance values. It is very well used at
LCD's since its very low current, but I don't know if it can handles
10mA with a low voltage drop...
Wagner

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