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PICList Thread
'[OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full'
2010\07\28@211149 by James Newton

face picon face
The complete PICList archive at piclist.com is again accessible, and it's
ZIPPY FAST... but
A) No posts have been archived since 2010/07/16 and they aren't going to be
until I get this damn Exchange server figured out. If you know EWS 2k7
scripting on M$ platforms, please consider offering to help get the flow
restarted.
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com?subject=I_CAN_HELP_PICLIST_EWS_2K7_SCRIPT

B) No full text search. If you know how to script web access to Content
Index, please consider offering to help.

.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@piclist.com?subject=I_CAN_HELP_WITH_CONTENT_INDEX
Or PayPal some $$ so I can afford to hire a programmer. I'm broke. This new
server cost about $4k.

--
James Newton
@ piclist.com
1-970-462-7764

2010\07\29@093613 by Derward Myrick

picon face
James, I can not help with the technical problem but I have all
the emails and can keep them until you get it fixed.  Just let me
know if you want me to keep them.

Derward Myrick

{Original Message removed}

2010\07\29@153244 by James Newton

face picon face
Amazingly enough, Steve Smith actually contributed $50 towards hiring a
programmer to help fix this, so if you know anyone who works cheap and might
be able to figure out either of these issues, please forward this to them
and let them know I have $100 (I'll match) to pay them for a solution.

Wasn't there a web site where you could post a job request and set a price
you were willing to pay?

And Steve, THANK YOU! It really means a lot to me when someone actually puts
their hard won money up to help out a community. Especially in this economy..

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\07\29@153402 by James Newton

face picon face
Thanks Derward,

I'll take you up on that since I'm missing 7/16 to 7/23. But I do need the
FULL email with headers, if you have that?

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\07\29@154737 by Marcel Duchamp
picon face
I think it's free to try this out:
http://stackoverflow.com/


On 7/29/2010 12:32 PM, James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\07\29@160636 by Richard Prosser

picon face
On 30 July 2010 07:47, Marcel Duchamp <marcel.duchampspamKILLspamsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I think it's free to try this out:
> http://stackoverflow.com/
>
>
> On 7/29/2010 12:32 PM, James Newton wrote:
>> Amazingly enough, Steve Smith actually contributed $50 towards hiring a
>> programmer to help fix this, so if you know anyone who works cheap and might
>> be able to figure out either of these issues, please forward this to them
>> and let them know I have $100 (I'll match) to pay them for a solution.
>>
>> Wasn't there a web site where you could post a job request and set a price
>> you were willing to pay?
>>
>> And Steve, THANK YOU! It really means a lot to me when someone actually puts
>> their hard won money up to help out a community. Especially in this economy.
>>
>> --
>> James Newton
>> 1-970-462-7764
>>
>


'[OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full'
2010\08\23@205353 by James Newton
face picon face
I've opened a project request at vWorker (used to be rent a coder) for a
program to extract list emails from the server and write them out to a file
so I can add them to the archive. I will pay $100 at this point ($50 from
Steve and matching funds from me) for a solution and will match funds with
anyone else willing to make a contribution to this project.

www.vworker.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBid
RequestId=1482924

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\08\27@185347 by James Newton

face picon face
Brian Harris donated $150 toward fixing up the site, and I've received three
bids for the project from vworker... the lowball bid doesn't look promising,
and I'm waiting to see what the other two will actually want to charge, but
things are looking good!

I can't tell you how much I appreciate people putting their money on the
line to support the site and archive. It helps to restore my faith in
humanity, and lately, that has needed some restoring... LOL...

I've also put in some time trying to figure out how to access the file index
from the site to implement a local search. You can always google search the
site, (just add "site:piclist.com" to the start of your search string) but
google hasn't indexed anything like the entire archive. A local content
search is really necessary, and I'm amazed that there is apparently no
documentation on how to set it up in this new version of the server. I may
end up starting another vworker project if I can't find anything more on my
own or from the M$ forums.

As always, David Cary and I continue to update pages here and there, adding
new and interesting bits of information and attempting to improve the
organization and cross linking of the pages. Any assistance with that would
be greatly appreciated.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\08\30@142526 by James Newton

face picon face
And Alex Harford sent $20 and Anthony Smith sent $50. THANK YOU!

Finalizing the programmer I will hire. Both want me to download a Microsoft
Deveopment environment on the server so I can compile the source they give
me. One is pushing VC++, the other VB. I know more VB than VC++ but I can
manage either. Any advice on which one I should invest in?

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\08\30@155743 by Marechiare

picon face
James Newton wrote:
> Finalizing the programmer I will hire. Both want me to download a
> Microsoft Deveopment environment on the server so I can compile
> the source they give me. One is pushing VC++, the other VB. I
> know more VB than VC++ but I can manage either. Any advice on
> which one I should invest in?

In C#, I think

2010\08\30@163920 by Bob Ammerman

flavicon
face
Either VB or C# if it was me.

Note that you should only need the "Express" version, which is free.

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2010\08\30@195429 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
James,

Sorry to bring this up now, but can you explain in a nutshell what benefit we should expect to derive from the project? Is there real demand for having the messages archived outside of Nabble? I haven't used the piclist.com archive in years.

Vitaliy

2010\08\31@011611 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bob Ammerman" <.....rvammermanKILLspamspam.....roadrunner.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 9:39 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

> Either VB or C# if it was me.
>
> Note that you should only need the "Express" version, which is free.

I agree here - VB or C# will probably be easier to manage than C++ for this type of thing, especially if you are more familiar with VB.

2010\08\31@144305 by Marechiare

picon face
Bob Ammerman <wrote:
> Either VB or C# if it was me.
>
> Note that you should only need the "Express" version,
> which is free.

It depends now, as far as I know. MS seems to start elaborating on it

2010\08\31@150525 by Marechiare

picon face
> Sorry to bring this up now, but can you explain in a nutshell
> what benefit we should expect to derive from the project? Is
> there real demand for having the messages archived outside
> of Nabble? I haven't used the piclist.com archive in years.

You, probably, mean - provide web interface to archive, not to simply
archive, because most list members do archieve messages already

2010\08\31@153421 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Marechiare wrote:
> because most list members do archieve messages already.

They do?  How do you know this?  I certainly don't.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\08\31@155436 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
And I don't archive either. Just save those that might have use for in the future, which might be 1% or less.

On 8/31/2010 3:34 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Marechiare wrote:
>    
>> because most list members do archieve messages already.
>>      
> They do?  How do you know this?  I certainly don't.
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
>

2010\08\31@160738 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Olin Lathrop
<olin_piclistspamspam_OUTembedinc.com> wrote:
> Marechiare wrote:
>> because most list members do archieve messages already.
>
> They do?  How do you know this?  I certainly don't.

How many subscribers use gmail?  If more than 50%, then I'd side with
Marechiare.

But that only gets you an archive since you've been subscribed, and
unless you've been subscribed since the beginning, there is a lot of
information out there that you won't have.

2010\08\31@162750 by James Newton

face picon face
Huh? Pardon me for saying, but this has got to be one of the weirdest
questions I've been asked...

I guess all I can say is "You are most welcome not to contribute."
Some people use the site. If you don't, don't. If you do, and you miss the
real time archive at piclist.com then contribute if you like. Or don't and
use it anyway. Contributing will get the real time part fixed sooner and
ensure the complete archive continues to fill.

Wow...

If you want advertising, I'll sell that, but you can edit any of the pages
yourself so there isn't much point.
Not sure what other benefit could be implied.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\08\31@164251 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
James Newton wrote:
> If you want advertising, I'll sell that,

How does that work?  Do you charge for impressions, click-thrus, something
else?  How much?  How does it decide to display what ad where?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\08\31@181759 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I use gmail, but I still delete stuff. I don't really like the "never
delete an email again" idea - it makes it harder to find what I want.

Sean


On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Alex Harford <@spam@harfordKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\08\31@182109 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
James,

I think Vitaliy was simply asking for a brief explanation of the
advantages of the piclist.com archive over nabble. I don't think he
was saying "why the heck should I contribute?" as if he thought that
there was no value to your work - just that he was not familiar with
recent developments at piclist.com or what kinds of improvements you
planned to do with funds which people provided.

Thank you for your hard work! I appreciate the archive feature which
piclist.com used to have, although I did find it difficult to use,
probably because the interface was non-intuitive to me.

Sean


On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 4:27 PM, James Newton <RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspammassmind.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2010\08\31@185218 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Sean Breheny wrote:
> I think Vitaliy was simply asking for a brief explanation of the
> advantages of the piclist.com archive over nabble. I don't think he
> was saying "why the heck should I contribute?" as if he thought that
> there was no value to your work - just that he was not familiar with
> recent developments at piclist.com or what kinds of improvements you
> planned to do with funds which people provided.

Thank you Sean, it is exactly what I meant.

2010\08\31@193024 by James Newton

face picon face
Oh... Sorry, I didn't understand.

There aren't any advantages of the piclist.com archive over nabble. They are
just different ways of looking at the same data..

....well...

There is one advantage. The PICList.com archive goes all the way back to
1992; the very very start of the list.

And it is searchable by author by year, so you can find posts from someone
in a specific time period even wayback. As far as I can see, nabble just
manages the last year.

But generally, the user interface just makes so much more sense to me... and
so much less sense to others.
On the new server, piclist.com is fast as all heck. Much faster than nabble,
as far as I can tell... may just be my bias.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}


'[OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full'
2010\09\01@020926 by RussellMc
face picon face
> I use gmail, but I still delete stuff. I don't really like the "never
> delete an email again" idea - it makes it harder to find what I want.

I don't.
The "labels", which are approximately equivalent to mailboxes, make it
reasonably easy to separate what from  chaff.
You can cause incoming emails to skip the inbox and have labels  added
as desired.
You can click on "All Mail"  to see what's new and then use searches like

             label: ItsRubbish

or multiple labels eg

            label: unread label:PICLIST

to select desired subsets.

Archiving allows you to semi delete things.



2010\09\01@083928 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Marechiare wrote:

> Bob Ammerman <wrote:
>> Either VB or C# if it was me.
>>
>> Note that you should only need the "Express" version,
>> which is free.
>
> It depends now, as far as I know. MS seems to start elaborating on
> it.

Can you please elaborate on what you know? On what does it depend?

Gerhar

2010\09\01@085412 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I do use labels and filters. I suppose I could have a catch-all
semi-trash label where I filed things that I presently delete but I
have a natural tendency to be too much of a packrat anyway so I prefer
to just delete such items.


On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 2:08 AM, RussellMc <spamBeGoneapptechnzspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\03@034625 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:30 PM, James Newton wrote:

> There aren't any advantages of the piclist.com archive over nabble.

Huh?  There's a tremendous philosophical difference!   piclist.com is  the OWNER (in some sense; let's not get bogged down in legal  arguments) of the piclist content, and has as part of its mission to  keep complete archives.  Nabble is merely a service provider, and any  archives that they may or may not keep are subject only to their whims  (and their existence.)  For instance, I was at one time counting on  Yahoo Group archives for certain subjects, and then yahoo stopped  retaining attachments, making their archives next to useless...

Now, there may not be an advantage to PICLIST.COM maintaining a web  gui for searching archives, compared to Nabble's capabilities (and the  fact that Nabble gets indexed by Google.)

I wonder...  PICLIST is a rather moderate volume mostly text-only  mailing list.  Have web economics reached the point where it would be  cheaper to just make full text archives downloadable (perhaps one year  at a time) and locally searchable, rather than providing web-based  tools?  (ie has bandwidth become cheaper than programmer time?)

BillW

2010\09\03@102401 by M.L.

flavicon
face
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:46 AM, William "Chops" Westfield <TakeThisOuTwestfwEraseMEspamspam_OUTmac.com>wrote:

> I wonder...  PICLIST is a rather moderate volume mostly text-only
> mailing list.  Have web economics reached the point where it would be
> cheaper to just make full text archives downloadable (perhaps one year
> at a time) and locally searchable, rather than providing web-based
> tools?  (ie has bandwidth become cheaper than programmer time?)
>

Probably, or you could just use gmail and search your own archive. That's
what I do, though I don't remember the last time I had the desire to search
the piclist archives.
You could even put all of your email in text files in a folder and Google
Desktop would index it and make it searchable. No threading though.

-- Martin K

2010\09\03@103818 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Probably, or you could just use gmail and search your own archive. That's
> what I do,

GMail's search is not very good though - worse even than Gargoyle's
declining search capability.

Unless I've missed it (always possible) it doesn't allow/provide

- Partial words
- clauses eg "global warming"
- wild cards or grep type expressions.

It does an AND of multiple search terms within a document but an OR
within the document.
eg searching for

                      climate change

will find only documents with both these words within the documents
BUT not necessarily together.


          Russell





though I don't remember the last time I had the desire to search
> the piclist archives.
> You could even put all of your email in text files in a folder and Google
> Desktop would index it and make it searchable. No threading though.
>
> --
> Martin K.
>

2010\09\03@104112 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 03/09/2010 15:23, M.L. wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:46 AM, William "Chops" Westfield<RemoveMEwestfwspamTakeThisOuTmac.com>wrote:
>
>> I wonder...  PICLIST is a rather moderate volume mostly text-only
>> mailing list.  Have web economics reached the point where it would be
>> cheaper to just make full text archives downloadable (perhaps one year
>> at a time) and locally searchable, rather than providing web-based
>> tools?  (ie has bandwidth become cheaper than programmer time?)
>>
> Probably, or you could just use gmail and search your own archive. That's
> what I do, though I don't remember the last time I had the desire to search
> the piclist archives.
> You could even put all of your email in text files in a folder and Google
> Desktop would index it and make it searchable. No threading though.
>
It can be done on Web without much programming. It depends on the mechanism that provides the list in the first place.

I have no faith in or need to use Google. Especially not for archiving my mail or searching my Desktop.
Since when did Advertising Agencies become a reliable resource

2010\09\03@215733 by Rolf

flavicon
face
So,

as an exercise, and since I am a linux fan, I decided to see what it would take to get the archives up and running on a linux machine.

I had a look around to see what I should use to accomplish it, and I
decided on 'lurker'. I downloaded, built, and installed it, did a little
configuration, and the imported the past 5 years of PICList mails in to it.

It has taken me 2 hours.... + another hour or so to de-comission some other stuff I had on port 80 of my home network.... ;-)

and it is now available here...

http://www.tuis.net/

The concept is sound, fast, and perhaps worth considering....

I can't leave this server up and running forever, perhaps a week or so (I will integrate this in to my 'personal and private' web system after that.

James, I know you don't like Linux ... but, well...

This is now an installed, running, and updated mail archive of all PICList mail. I only have mails from the past 6 years though... anyone with older mail archives are welcome to forward them to me... (I want them anyway)

Rolf



On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:40:50 +0100, Michael Watterson <mikeEraseMEspam.....radioway.org>
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\04@091952 by Rolf

flavicon
face
 Well, there's a surprise.

I send this response, go to bed, and this morning I'm all eager to see what people think, and, I'm a little surprised that there's no reply's to this mail, but I think, really, who wants to be doing things between midnight and 9am on a Saturday morning, so all are forgiven.

Then I look at my apache logs, and they are huge.

There have been a few 'people' who have inspected the site, but, surprisingly (and I say this because this will be the first time ever that there has been an actual web page (rather than a re-direct to an https page) at the address), but, google has already 'crawled' the site.

Go figure. I guess I had better get a robots.txt installed.... but holy cow, batman, Google is fast!

The joys of the 'net.

Rolf

On 03/09/2010 9:36 PM, Rolf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\04@102636 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Rolf wrote:
> Well, there's a surprise.
>
> I send this response, go to bed, and this morning I'm all eager to see
> what people think, and, I'm a little surprised that there's no reply's
> to this mail,

In general, people greatly overestimate how much the world will care about
their little pet project, when in fact most don't give a crap.  You seem to
have fallen into this delusion more heavily than most.

> Then I look at my apache logs, and they are huge.
>
> There have been a few 'people' who have inspected the site,

I looked at it briefly out of curiosity.  My external IP address is
129.44.190.252, which should be in your logs.  My first impressions were
that the nice calendar view James has is missing.  You couldn't browse, only
search, and the search seemed to have no date range, just a specific date.
I concluded it was useless for me and got off the site.  Perhaps there was
more there, but first impressions are everything.  If you can't convince
someone there is value there in the first 20 seconds, it doesn't matter what
else is available after digging deeper.

Since you were doing this on your own, I wasn't going to comment, just
ignore it.  I suspect many of the others that checked out your site did the
same.  There was no point beating you up about something you did on your own
for fun that wasn't being imposed on us.

However, now that you took the extraordinary step of complaining about lack
of feedback (when that in itself is actually clear feedback) and didn't even
wait 24 hours ("Ooh, ooh, looky me world!"), you are going to get comments
people previously decided to withhold.

I guess there are several different ways people used the PICList archives in
the past.  I used it on occasion to see exactly who said what to whom when,
and sometimes to see if anything interesting had developed after a few days
in a thread I wasn't monitoring.  While that was occasionally nice to have,
it's not nice enough to get off my butt and help do anything about restoring
it.  We each have to chose which volunteer activities we will help with, and
which we will leave for others to do for us.  This one for me is in the
second catagory.

James did mention something about advertising on his site, but when I asked
for details I got no response.  That could have been a possible source of
support for his efforts, but if he can't even get back to legitimate
customer inquiries then it leaves his sincerity suspect.  Oh well, I'll
still be just fine either way.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\04@113626 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Olin Lathrop" <RemoveMEolin_piclistEraseMEspamEraseMEembedinc.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:26 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

{Quote hidden}

Jeez Olin, you really are a grouch sometimes... keeps me amused though I suppose... (when it's not bugging me..) :-)
I don't think he was "complaining", just maybe gently poking us for some feedback (which you appear to have taken him up on in your own inimitable manner)
I think it's good that anyone will take the time and trouble to do this kind of thing as it means the Piclist is more likely to survive in the future.
I was also interested in the response to the advertising question, I thought that was quite a good idea if done correctly. I'm the same about the archives, I don't really use them at the moment, but I think it's a great knowledge resource to have and I'm sure some people find it very useful. I may test it out and see how good it is at searching/providing relevant knowledge on certain subjects - many of the threads here I have often thought should be saved in some kind of FAQ for different subjects. Sorting the wheat from the chaff would be hard going though over years of archives (maybe there could be a "useful" flag attached in future :-) )...

2010\09\04@152138 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 4, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Rolf wrote:

>> I had a look around to see what I should use to accomplish it, and I
>> decided on 'lurker'. I downloaded, built, and installed it, did a  
>> little
>> configuration, and the imported the past 5 years of PICList mails  
>> in to it.

I was a little annoyed that I couldn't find any documentation for  lurker.  Most soucreforge projects have a wiki or something.  "imports  existing archives"; swell, but in what formats and etc?  Is it  strictly a web-based GUI?  Grr...

It does claim to run under windows as well...

BillW

2010\09\04@154751 by bill.finkle

picon face

       Ok on Windows 7 and IE8.

         Bill Finkle

-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspamMIT.EDU [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamspamBeGoneMIT.EDU] On Behalf Of
William "Chops" Westfield
Sent: 04 September 2010 20:22
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search


On Sep 4, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Rolf wrote:

>> I had a look around to see what I should use to accomplish it, and I
>> decided on 'lurker'. I downloaded, built, and installed it, did a
>> little configuration, and the imported the past 5 years of PICList
>> mails in to it.

I was a little annoyed that I couldn't find any documentation for lurker.
Most soucreforge projects have a wiki or something.  "imports existing
archives"; swell, but in what formats and etc?  Is it strictly a web-based
GUI?  Grr...

It does claim to run under windows as well...

BillW

2010\09\04@194136 by Rolf

flavicon
face
 You know, Oli, Olin and I have a 'thing' going, a mutual dislike. I try not to let it get to me, and for the most part I succeed.

Then again, sometimes he succeeds. This time though I just figured I'd let it slide. I resolved a while ago to not get ulcers on his behalf, life's too short, yada, yada, yada...  but, well, I was prepping a response to another mail and I was intrigued by how many people had actually looked at the system I set up, so I grepped the logs, and came up with 26 unique IP's, and, since Olin told me his IP, I grepped the logs for his IP.

Here's the result:

http://www.tuis.net:80 129.44.190.252 - - [04/Sep/2010:09:21:37 -0400] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 282 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
http://www.tuis.net:80 129.44.190.252 - - [04/Sep/2010:09:21:39 -0400] "GET /splash/index.en.html HTTP/1.1" 200 1804 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
http://www.tuis.net:80 129.44.190.252 - - [04/Sep/2010:09:21:39 -0400] "GET /ui/default.css HTTP/1.1" 200 6003 "http://www.tuis.net/splash/index.en.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
http://www.tuis.net:80 129.44.190.252 - - [04/Sep/2010:09:21:39 -0400] "GET /ui/common.js HTTP/1.1" 200 2144 "http://www.tuis.net/splash/index.en.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
http://www.tuis.net:80 129.44.190.252 - - [04/Sep/2010:09:21:39 -0400] "GET /imgs/root.png HTTP/1.1" 200 5687 "http://www.tuis.net/splash/index.en.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"

That's it, in it's entirety, no more, no less.

This tells me that, to prepare his response to my mail, he looked at the front page. Yup, he did not click on a single link. You know the links to the "PIC", "PIC EE and TECH", and "PIC OT and everything else" links, well, he did not click a single one of them.

I am just surprised that he went to so much effort *before* he told me I was delusional. And, what's more, he has the nerve to say the archive is not really worth doing anything about "it's not nice enough to get off my butt and help", yet, he is quick to get off his butt, at 5:21am to try piss someone off... I guess that speaks volumes. He manages to call me delusional, and to then have the gaul to say that James's 'Sincerity is suspect' just irks me.

James just spent 4K on a machine to keep the archive going, when, by all accounts, that is stretching his budget really thin. If anyone has suspect sincerity it certainly is not James.

I can handle it when Olin digs in to me, calls me names, and is generally mean, but it really bothers me when he picks on the people with genuine integrity (again) and then gets all lordy as if he is doing us all a favor by 'putting people in their place'.

Rolf

On 04/09/2010 11:36 AM, Oli Glaser wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\04@194311 by Rolf

flavicon
face
 On 04/09/2010 3:21 PM, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Rolf wrote:
>
>>> I had a look around to see what I should use to accomplish it, and I
>>> decided on 'lurker'. I downloaded, built, and installed it, did a
>>> little
>>> configuration, and the imported the past 5 years of PICList mails
>>> in to it.
> I was a little annoyed that I couldn't find any documentation for
> lurker.  Most soucreforge projects have a wiki or something.  "imports
> existing archives"; swell, but in what formats and etc?  Is it
> strictly a web-based GUI?  Grr...
>
> It does claim to run under windows as well...
>
> BillW
>

Yeah, the web-docs for it are weak. On the flip side, the tar.gz contains INSTALL, and FAQ, which between them were enough to get going.
For the record, it supports both mbox and maildir formats (although, for maildir it looks in the Maildir/new folder for mails, which is not that smart, really...). I use Maildir myself, and I had to clone my maildir folders, then rename the cur to new, for it to import. I only discovered this 'fix' by actually reading the source code... but, that's why we have the code, right. As for the loading of mails as they arrive it takes them in on StdIn... which makes sense, and makes it really easy to install in a .procmailrc or other delivery agent.

When it imports the mails it internally appends them to a compressed mbox form of folder, so it keeps it's own copy. It then indexes the mails through various 'dimensions' including subject, author, body, etc.

I installed the entire 'lurker' system in to it's own folder (web frontend, databases, management programs, documentation (man pages), etc, and that entire folder, with 6 years of piclist messages (and the cached pages of what people have so far viewed), is 763MB.

Relatively neat, considering the actual mail on disk in my Maildir folders is 1.3GB.

Oh, and there have been 26 unique IP's to access the archive on my machine (excluding google and myself).

Then again, perhaps I should revise that down to 25, because Olin's 'visit' does not count, he did not actually *do* anything, did not even click a link.

Rol

2010\09\04@214531 by RussellMc

face picon face
>  I try not to let it get to me ...

It's easy enough -

Just apply an inverse fourier "view world through vinegar colo[u]red
glasses" convolution (VWTVCG) against "average response with 3 sigma +
outliers removed", apply a boxcar filter based on this and deal with
what's left. Often it's very good. If the only signal you get is more
than 10 dB below the noise floor you can, if you can be bothered,
repeat the above but reducing the boxcar to 2 sigma+. This will
usually but not always get at least something worthwhile. If not you
could try 1 sigma+ acceptance bounds but that's almost certain to
produce such a noisy signal if the other attempts have failed that
it's unlikely to be useful.

Warning: In applying above be sure to apply the INVERSE 'vinegar'
convolution or truly horrid things could happen. (This approach is
useful if a 'shock jock' generator is required but is not apposite
here).

In place of continuous inverse Fourier VWTVCG convolution a discrete
form or Winograd transform could be utilised.

While this does involve both real and complex issues, the discrete
versions are susceptible to window length errors which may allow out
of band signal to be aliased into the passband to produce undetected
subharmonic vinegarising. This may no longer be overly acerbic but is
liable to noise up the otherwise often useful or even highly valuable
residual signal. The Winograd transform (formally known as the
Winograd Fourier Transform Algorithm (or usually just WFTA*, **)
allows complexity bounds to be set on the devinegaring but, as may be
imagined, application of WFTA is fraught with hazards which need not
be mentioned here.

Suggestions to try to emulate a be a Cool(ey) Tu(r)key or to not get
butterflies, are liable to be beyond the pale into insignificance.
Sometimes its better, and almost always easier, if transformation
doesn't seem to produce redemption, to just dump the sample and walk
away, walk away, walk away, rather than trying to sort wheat, gold and
sheep from Goats, chaff and dross (in no particular order). There will
always be more data.


          Russell


* Really.

** Gus may want to sue them, depending on precedence. Terry developed
his transform in

Further reading:

WTFA:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform
http://cnx.org/content/m16335/latest/
www.springerlink.com/content/911956337j3n2873/
ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1162924
http://eprints.iisc.ernet.in/8237/
http://www.eda.org/VIUF_proc/Spring94/WAILES94A.PDF

WA WA WA ...

- http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/ecla/lyrics/walk-away.html

- http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=walk+away+walk+away&hl=en&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=tfSCTNIqidS1A4iw4PYH&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQqwQwAA

Vinegairette transform:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OJlYelgDg2YJ:http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_6468260+%2Btransform+%2Bvinaigrette+%2Bfiltering&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

http://www.google.co.nz/#q=%2Btransform+%2Bvinaigrette&hl=en&sa=X&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=VfKCTI2GLJT2swO1qoX4Bw&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQqwQwAQ&fp=9b8c2d1298cd895

2010\09\05@003245 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 09:18:52 -0400, "Rolf" said:

> Go figure. I guess I had better get a robots.txt installed.... but holy
> cow, batman, Google is fast!

All it takes is one person clicking on a link from gmail. If Google
doesn't know the link already, it crawls it.

It may not even take clicking on the link, since Google reads all gmail
ahead of time, and it probably checks all the links in all the emails.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2010\09\05@045451 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 It looks good to me here Rolf

I did a search on can bus just by putting that in subject and leaving all else blank. Instant response

check where home.irishwattystuff.com and glenarm.irishwattystuff.com resolve to see where "here" is.

I may look and see if lurker is useful to me. I run http://www.techtir,ie http://www.wattystuff.net, radioway.org and radioway.info and was wanting a mailing list (easily done on either of my hosted systems, I have a test one) but to have it searchable, but with private parts only for different logged in user groups. I was going to look at Drupal and Wordpress plugings.

My own server in the attic runs Win2000, with MS-SQL, IIS, MySQL, Apache etc so I have may cake and eat it. But Fibre to most home or businesses if you are in not the 5% covered is impossible and even then very expensive if you want business SLA. Conversely a decent hosting plan in a Data centre with juicy fibre with fat Microwave backup is €40 a year. I bet my home server uses more than that in electricity.


twice though on http://www.tuis.net/splash/index.en.html if got "Can't find server" since third attempt it's OK

2010\09\05@083858 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Rolf wrote:
> This tells me that, to prepare his response to my mail, he looked at
> the front page.

I followed your link from your original message to see what was there.  As I
said, I was going to silently leave it that until your second message
seeking more attention.

> Yup, he did not click on a single link.  You know the
> links
> to the "PIC", "PIC EE and TECH", and "PIC OT and everything else"
> links, well, he did not click a single one of them.

Like I said, it didn't look like anything useful to me.  I could be wrong of
course, but I think I've got a pretty good idea what's behind the PIC, TECH,
OT, and related links.

> I am just surprised that he went to so much effort *before* he told
> me I was delusional.

As you pointed out, it was really no effort at all, and it was before I knew
you sent the second message.

> And, what's more, he has the nerve to say the archive is
> not really worth doing anything about "it's not nice enough to get off
> my butt and help", yet, he is quick to get off his butt, at 5:21am to
> try piss someone off...

If you don't want a response, don't send a second message complaning how the
first message didn't didn't get any responses.

Also look up something called "time zones".  It certainly wasn't 5:21 here.

> and to then have the gaul to say that James's
> 'Sincerity is suspect' just irks me.

Oh well.  Does it not seem odd to you that he doesn't follow up on a
potential source of revenue for his site, while at the same time soliciting
for donations?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\05@092504 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 05/09/2010 13:39, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> Oh well.  Does it not seem odd to you that he doesn't follow up on a
> potential source of revenue for his site, while at the same time soliciting
> for donations?


My techtir site used to have adverts. We decided to remove them and it will remain Advert free. We have good reasons.

It now depends on "donations". Though no-where does it ask for them on the site.

There are all kinds of reasons people do stuff. Guessing at the actual motivation may be fun, but rarely accurate

2010\09\05@113403 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> My techtir site used to have adverts. We decided to remove them and it
> will remain Advert free. We have good reasons.

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't accept advertisements.  There are
various reasons for and against, all of which are his business.

However, he mentioned something what certainly gave the impression there
were going to have advertisements.  I asked for details but never got a
response.  If you're not selling something, clarifying a statement that
makes it sound like you are is a good idea.  If you are selling something,
following up on legitimate customer inquiries would be expected.

Oh well, I'm certainly not going to chase after a reluctant possible
supplier, especially having found their pre-sales support non-existant.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\06@133105 by Joe Koberg

flavicon
face

 If most of the traffic can be on links to static pages, Amazon S3 can
serve the content for $0.01 per 10k HTTP requests and $0.15 per month
per GB of storage. (for example, activity bargraphs, message bodies,
thread summaries all look static / precomputed)

You would of course need a hosted machine to serve the index..... I am a
fan of Amazon EC2 instances.... $61 to keep a 1.7GB/160GB/1 Core VM
running for a month.    Though I think my local hosting center does
better at $75/month for 1U given an ebay'ed server....


Joe Koberg AE5NE


On 9/5/2010 3:54 AM, Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> find server" since third attempt it's OK.

2010\09\07@102523 by rolf

flavicon
face
Well, there has been a 'fair' amount of interest in the test site I put up.
42 unique IP's visited it. I had some off-list communications with some
folk too.

I will continue running 'lurker' on my mail system because it is just
really good and incredibly fast at searching and presenting the archive
information. Unfortunately, I can't keep running it publicly on my home
network.

Sometime this coming weekend I'll be restoring my web server to it's
previous state (any port 80 requests will instead redirect to a secure
login page requiring a security certificate, etc.). I'll also schedule for
Google to rescan http://www.tuis.net which will likely purge the google cache for
the URLs (when restored, the robots.txt will discourage spiders).

If there continues to be interest in this archive I will possibly set up a
separate port on the machine for it to remain available until someone comes
up with a more permanent solution.

I also want to find the full history of the piclist, if anyone has it. In
particular, I am looking for all mails up to and including 2004. If someone
has these if they could contact me and I will add them to the archive I
have. I would appreciate that. I am happy to get any format, but especially
happy for mbox or Maildir.

Thanks

Rolf

2010\09\09@144134 by James Newton

face picon face
As of 2010/09/09 @11:40 PST:

Hmm, http://www.tuis.net isn't loading right now.

The computers that run http://www.tuis.net are having some trouble. Usually this is
just a temporary problem, so you might want to try again in a few minutes.
Want more detail? See which nameservers are failing.
Nameserver trace for http://www.tuis.net:

Looking for who is responsible for root zone and followed
l.root-servers.net.
Looking for who is responsible for net and followed h.gtld-servers.net.
Looking for who is responsible for tuis.net and followed ns1.xname.org.
Nameservers for http://www.tuis.net:

ns0.xname.org returned (SERVFAIL)
ns1.xname.org returned (SERVFAIL)

It appears your DNS service is failing, I'm sure your server is up and
running just fine.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\09@144758 by James Newton

face picon face
Wow... I wonder why Olin "got no response"...
For some reason, this old joke comes to mind: "If you lend a guy $20 and
never see him again, it was probably worth it!"
--
James.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Olin Lathrop" <RemoveMEolin_piclistKILLspamspamembedinc.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:26 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

{Quote hidden}

Jeez Olin, you really are a grouch sometimes... keeps me amused though I suppose... (when it's not bugging me..) :-)
I don't think he was "complaining", just maybe gently poking us for some feedback (which you appear to have taken him up on in your own inimitable manner)
I think it's good that anyone will take the time and trouble to do this kind

of thing as it means the Piclist is more likely to survive in the future.
I was also interested in the response to the advertising question, I thought that was quite a good idea if done correctly. I'm the same about the

archives, I don't really use them at the moment, but I think it's a great knowledge resource to have and I'm sure some people find it very useful. I may test it out and see how good it is at searching/providing relevant knowledge on certain subjects - many of the threads here I have often thought should be saved in some kind of FAQ for different subjects. Sorting the wheat from the chaff would be hard going though over years of archives (maybe there could be a "useful" flag attached in future :-) )...

2010\09\09@144947 by James Newton

face picon face
ROFLMAO! Oh damn that is funny...

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
-----Original Message-----
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesSTOPspamspamEraseMEmit.edu [KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Olin Lathrop
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 05:39
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

Rolf wrote:
> This tells me that, to prepare his response to my mail, he looked at
> the front page.

I followed your link from your original message to see what was there.  As I
said, I was going to silently leave it that until your second message
seeking more attention.

> Yup, he did not click on a single link.  You know the
> links
> to the "PIC", "PIC EE and TECH", and "PIC OT and everything else"
> links, well, he did not click a single one of them.

Like I said, it didn't look like anything useful to me.  I could be wrong of
course, but I think I've got a pretty good idea what's behind the PIC, TECH,
OT, and related links.

> I am just surprised that he went to so much effort *before* he told
> me I was delusional.

As you pointed out, it was really no effort at all, and it was before I knew
you sent the second message.

> And, what's more, he has the nerve to say the archive is
> not really worth doing anything about "it's not nice enough to get off
> my butt and help", yet, he is quick to get off his butt, at 5:21am to
> try piss someone off...

If you don't want a response, don't send a second message complaning how the
first message didn't didn't get any responses.

Also look up something called "time zones".  It certainly wasn't 5:21 here.

> and to then have the gaul to say that James's
> 'Sincerity is suspect' just irks me.

Oh well.  Does it not seem odd to you that he doesn't follow up on a
potential source of revenue for his site, while at the same time soliciting
for donations?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\09@145448 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
James Newton wrote:
> As of 2010/09/09 @11:40 PST:
>
> Hmm, http://www.tuis.net isn't loading right now.
>
>  
>
ok here resolving
99.250.161.150


2010\09\09@145658 by James Newton

face picon face
I, obviously, have all the emails excluding a few I missed in July of this
year. It's hell to zip them up or to copy all billion of them to a CD and
hope it burns ok but if you would be willing to send me a USB hard drive or
a BIG FLASH dongle (>2GB I think), I'll be happy to copy them onto it and
mail that back to you.

Contact me directly for my address if you like.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\09@145950 by James Newton

face picon face
Ah, I see in a later post you took the server down. Oh well.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
-----Original Message-----
From: James Newton [EraseMEjamesnewtonspamEraseMEmassmind.org] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:42
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

As of 2010/09/09 @11:40 PST:

Hmm, http://www.tuis.net isn't loading right now.

The computers that run http://www.tuis.net are having some trouble. Usually this is
just a temporary problem, so you might want to try again in a few minutes.
Want more detail? See which nameservers are failing.
Nameserver trace for http://www.tuis.net:

Looking for who is responsible for root zone and followed
l.root-servers.net.
Looking for who is responsible for net and followed h.gtld-servers.net.
Looking for who is responsible for tuis.net and followed ns1.xname.org.
Nameservers for http://www.tuis.net:

ns0.xname.org returned (SERVFAIL)
ns1.xname.org returned (SERVFAIL)

It appears your DNS service is failing, I'm sure your server is up and
running just fine.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
-----Original Message-----
From: @spam@piclist-bounces@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Rolf
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 18:36
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

So,

as an exercise, and since I am a linux fan, I decided to see what it would take to get the archives up and running on a linux machine.

I had a look around to see what I should use to accomplish it, and I
decided on 'lurker'. I downloaded, built, and installed it, did a little
configuration, and the imported the past 5 years of PICList mails in to it.

It has taken me 2 hours.... + another hour or so to de-comission some other stuff I had on port 80 of my home network.... ;-)

and it is now available here...

http://www.tuis.net/

The concept is sound, fast, and perhaps worth considering....

I can't leave this server up and running forever, perhaps a week or so (I will integrate this in to my 'personal and private' web system after that.

James, I know you don't like Linux ... but, well...

This is now an installed, running, and updated mail archive of all PICList mail. I only have mails from the past 6 years though... anyone with older mail archives are welcome to forward them to me... (I want them anyway)

Rolf



On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:40:50 +0100, Michael Watterson <.....mikespam_OUTspamradioway.org>
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\09@152937 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
Server seems to be up for me (tuis) -- I am from Florida USA

Rather nice actually -- seems to work quite well (the program that is).

I am not sure if I would need to search the archives, but in either
case it is kind of neat :)

Aleksei


On 9 September 2010 14:59, James Newton <TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonKILLspamspamspammassmind.org> wrote:
> Ah, I see in a later post you took the server down. Oh well.
>
> --
> James Newton
> 1-970-462-7764
>
> {Original Message removed}

2010\09\09@154126 by James Newton

face picon face
I'm sure everyone will be happy to hear that I've selected a bidder from
rentacoder who will write a program to read any POP3 server and write out
the resulting emails as text files with full headers, then delete them from
the server. This will restart the real time archive and continue archiving
the piclist at piclist.com.
The agreed price is $250 and I will cover that nicely from the donations
I've received and my own matching funds. In fact, donations have been...
rather amazing... and so I need to find other improvements to spend them on..
Any suggestions appreciated. If there are parts of the site you would like
to see improved, please speak up. I've gotten to the point of being very
thick skinned about the site, so if you like, just say "x sucks!" but
understand that it doesn't really help unless you also say "it should be
like this:"

One area that obviously needs help is the site search, but believe it or
not, I actually am close to having that working on my own, so I hate to
throw money after it.

In the interests of full disclosure, and because I can't remember who I
thanked and who I didn't... If I missed someone, forgive me, and speak up.

$150.00 Brian Harris $100.00 ScanTool.net, LLC (Vitaliy Maksimov)  $50.00 DMITRIY KIRYASHOV  $50.00 Anthony Smith
$50.00 Steve Smith
$25.00 Sean Breheny
$20.00 Alex Harford

For a grand total of $445 (if my wetcalc is working)

Honestly, I'm blown away... thank you. Really. If there is anything I can do
you repay your kindness, please don't hesitate to ask.

Now the problem is that keeping my promise of providing matching funds is
going to be a bit tricky given my budget. If you know of any good steady
jobs in the San Diego north area or of any contract work that I can do, help
me earn more so I can keep up! LOL...
And Google Adwords would be happy to host your ads on my site if /anyone/
wants to support it that way. I don't have to interact with the advertisers
at all.

I'll take $125 of that for the POP3 to archive feed work ($125 from my
pocket) and I'll keep $320 handy for other future projects and improving the
site content.



--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764

2010\09\09@155322 by Marechiare

picon face
James Newton wrote:
> I'm sure everyone will be happy to hear that I've selected
> a bidder from rentacoder who will write a program to read
> any POP3 server and write out the resulting emails as
> text files with full headers, then delete them from the server.

In C#, I hope. Also, you may wish to google with POP3 c# code

2010\09\09@155744 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "James Newton" <.....jamesnewtonspamRemoveMEmassmind.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 7:59 PM
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Subject: RE: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

> Ah, I see in a later post you took the server down. Oh well.

Seems to be working well from here (UK) at the moment.
I like the program - seems nice and simple, and very quick. Not sure what else you would need it to do really - I searched for a few subjects, and it brought back relevant stuff very quickly.

2010\09\09@165200 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
James Newton wrote:
> And Google Adwords would be happy to host your ads on my site if
> /anyone/ wants to support it that way. I don't have to interact with
> the advertisers at all.

So if I understand this right you are one of the sites Google automatically
pops up Adwords ads onto?  How much revenue does that generate?

We did try out Google Adwords from the other end (as a advertiser) a few
months back and decided to discontinue it.  I can understand the appeal to
letting Google handle it because you don't have to do anything and a little
money just automatically trickles in.  However, if you want to do something
a little more deliberate just specifically on your site, I may possibly be
interested.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\09@165514 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Oli Glaser wrote:
> Not sure what else you would need it to do really

Have a index by date with a easy way to select by author.  All I could see
that site could do was a search.  I've almost never used James' archive that
way.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\09@194713 by James Newton

face picon face
Yeah, in C# and I plan to publish the code open source.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
-----Original Message-----
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bounces@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu [TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Marechiare
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:53
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full text search

James Newton wrote:
> I'm sure everyone will be happy to hear that I've selected
> a bidder from rentacoder who will write a program to read
> any POP3 server and write out the resulting emails as
> text files with full headers, then delete them from the server.

In C#, I hope. Also, you may wish to google with POP3 c# code

2010\09\09@235013 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Ah, I see.        ... Oh well.

You want to try to avoid that very last rejoinder :-).
It's someone else's signature line in selected circumstances (mayhaps unaware).
Somewhat akin to Darth* Vader's "I have you now" just before his
wingman (watch the slo-mo) sends him tumbling out of control.
You want to leave it to him - it's more amusing that way.


              R

* Interestingly, only 7 Gargoyle hits for D'Ath Vader, which it surely
should be

2010\09\09@235459 by Marechiare

picon face
> and I plan to publish the code open source.

Your investors/donnators may disagree :-

2010\09\10@024639 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> and I plan to publish the code open source.

> Your investors/donnators may disagree :-)

That consideration is implicit in the word "plan".
Noting his list of donors this seems moderately unlikely.


2010\09\10@031850 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, James Newton wrote:
>
>>> I'm sure everyone will be happy to hear that I've selected
>>> a bidder from rentacoder who will write a program to read
>>> any POP3 server and write out the resulting emails as
>>> text files with full headers, then delete them from the server.
>>
>> In C#, I hope. Also, you may wish to google with POP3 c# code.
> Yeah, in C# and I plan to publish the code open source.

Just out of curiosity, will you feel ripped off if they merely find,  possibly adapt, and assist with the install of  existing open source  code that does what you want?  That's sorta what I'd expect for $250...

BillW

2010\09\10@075153 by M.L.

flavicon
face

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:18 AM, William "Chops" Westfield
<westfwEraseMEspammac.com> wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, will you feel ripped off if they merely find,
> possibly adapt, and assist with the install of  existing open source
> code that does what you want?  That's sorta what I'd expect for $250...
>
> BillW
>

http://fetchmail.berlios.de/
It's a program I've used before. A canned solution. It even runs under Cygwin.

...

--
Martin K.

2010\09\10@145647 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>>>> I'm sure everyone will be happy to hear that I've selected
>>>> a bidder from rentacoder who will write a program to read
>>>> any POP3 server and write out the resulting emails as
>>>> text files with full headers, then delete them from the server.
>>>
>>> In C#, I hope. Also, you may wish to google with POP3 c# code.
>> Yeah, in C# and I plan to publish the code open source.
>
> Just out of curiosity, will you feel ripped off if they merely find,  
> possibly adapt, and assist with the install of  existing open source  
> code that does what you want?  That's sorta what I'd expect for $250...

I can't speak for James, but personally I wouldn't.

Vitali

2010\09\10@172640 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, will you feel ripped off if they merely find,
>> possibly adapt, and assist with the install of  existing open source
>> code that does what you want?  That's sorta what I'd expect for
>> $250...
>
> I can't speak for James, but personally I wouldn't.

I agree.  Why should James care if the desired result is accomplished for
the agreed upon price within the agreed upon time?  Actually I'd think it
would be better to find and install existing open source software than to
create something from scratch.  Somebody else has already bug checked it, at
least partially, and it will be easier to find people to maintain it in the
future.

In fact, if this contractor is doing anything else then his bid is highly
suspect.  His time is worth very little or he has no idea what he's getting
into.  If his time is worth so little, there's probably a good reason.  If
he doesn't understand the problem, that's bad too.  Either way you want to
get nowhere near this guy if he is planning on writing a reasonable amount
of original code.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\10@175032 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 10/09/2010 22:27, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> In fact, if this contractor is doing anything else then his bid is highly
> suspect.  His time is worth very little or he has no idea what he's getting
> into.  If his time is worth so little, there's probably a good reason.  If
> he doesn't understand the problem, that's bad too.  Either way you want to
> get nowhere near this guy if he is planning on writing a reasonable amount
> of original code.
possibly the contractor is just using off the shelf open source.

I've  written VB to send/receive SMTP/POP3 email out of curiosity*. Not hard to get something running in  few hours.
Harder to do a reliable complete application.

$250 is maybe 1/2 days pay in some places. Other places it's 2 months. In Elbonia it might be a years pay. I don't know.

Most of the time I agree should be installing, configuring and testing existing open source for this kind of application.

I'd assume James knows what he is doing.


2010\09\10@182155 by Jim Franklin

flavicon
face
I have a friend who uses Rent-a-coder for PHP development work, and he has a
strong relationship with a coder in Romania. His rate of pay is far less
than I would accept as an expense account, let alone pay rate.

That is the beauty of the system (from the friend's perspective)

He hasn't had any code smells yet, but has gone through a couple of previous
coders before he found the man he likes.

-Jim


{Original Message removed}

2010\09\10@193936 by James Newton

face picon face
Well, since I searched pretty extensively for such code, and didn't find it,
and asked here repeatedly for any pointers to such code, and didn't get
it...

No, I'd accept paying a $250 finders fee.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\10@194256 by James Newton

face picon face
I had not seen this one, but it doesn't appear to have the ability to write
the fetched email out to a file. I'm sure the source code could be used, but
I don't have the time.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\10@224834 by Marechiare

picon face
> I had not seen this one, but it doesn't appear to have the
> ability to write the fetched email out to a file.

It's easy, ask here and, I'm sure, a lot of people will be happy to
post the C# code on a specific issue.


> I'm sure the source code could be used, but I don't have
> the time.

If you plan on making the code open, I don't see any reason why not
keep the development open.

And why saving emails as text files? Why not MS SQL (Express) as you
surely did before

2010\09\11@072628 by Peter

picon face
Olin Lathrop <olin_piclist <at> embedinc.com> writes:
> In fact, if this contractor is doing anything else then his bid is highly
> suspect.  His time is worth very little or he has no idea what he's getting
> into.  If his time is worth so little, there's probably a good reason.  If
> he doesn't understand the problem, that's bad too.  Either way you want to
> get nowhere near this guy if he is planning on writing a reasonable amount
> of original code.

Well eventually, after months of list and search engine hiccups, the 1000 odd
beta testers on this list will finally find most bugs and then his software will
be as good or as bad as the average thing he could install now and save the
time. (this being written with tongue planted in cheek)

(Aside: NOBODY writes untested and unproven code and releases it into a
production environment with >1000 users over night)

-- Peter

2010\09\11@081016 by Marechiare

picon face
> Actually I'd think it would be better to find and install existing
> open source software than to create something from scratch.
> Somebody else has already bug checked it, at least partially,
> and it will be easier to find people to maintain it in the future.

Yeah, we know how you prefer reusing "existing open source software"
by Microchip over "creating something from scratch" :-) Remember that
what James described is just only a small task of his project.

2010\09\11@083559 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Marechiare wrote:
> And why saving emails as text files?

Is that what he's trying to do?  I thought there was something more
complicated going on.  I've got a SMTP server that already breaks up  each
received email message into a text file (and some other stuff), then lets a
arbitrary script run that is passed access to the file names and other
particulars.  Could this be as simple one of these scripts that contains the
right copy command?

James, it might be good if you explain what this code needs to do in more
detail.  I may have missed the original explanation especially if it was
sent during Masters or because it's OT, but the stuff I did see made it
sound a lot more complicated than this.

What exactly does the database of all the email messages look like?  Is it a
collection of text files, one per message?  If so, are they organized into
directories, like per day, month, year, or something?  What exactly must be
in these messages other then the message body?  Must most of the header
other than the FROM: and SUBJECT: lines be stripped?  Must they not?  Does
it matter?  What else must be done to the raw SMTP message?

Depending on the answers, I may already have something that does exactly
what you want that you can have for free.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\11@084721 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Peter wrote:
> (Aside: NOBODY writes untested and unproven code and releases it into
> a production environment with >1000 users over night)

I think you meant to say nobody SHOULD.  There are a lot of idiots out
there, and enough other idiot to hire the first batch of idiots.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\11@084742 by Rolf

flavicon
face
 On 11/09/2010 8:36 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Marechiare wrote:
>> And why saving emails as text files?
> Is that what he's trying to do?
snip
> James, it might be good if you explain what this code needs to do in more
> detail.  I may have missed the original explanation especially if it was
> sent during Masters or because it's OT,
snip
> Depending on the answers, I may already have something that does exactly
> what you want that you can have for free.
>
>

How ironic, if there was a searchable archive of the PICList mail list you would be able to find the answer yourself.

Then again, you have claimed that it would be useless to you, so I can't figure that one out....

Since I do have an archive, you will discover the issue is not the format of the e-mail, but that it is currently locked up in Exchange server and needs to get retrieved as a single text file for the archive system to process.

This was apparent from the actual requirement specification that James posted at:

http://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=1482924

Hmm... how nice it is to have the archive!

Rol

2010\09\11@090325 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Rolf wrote:
> the issue is not the
> format of the e-mail, but that it is currently locked up in Exchange
> server and needs to get retrieved as a single text file for the
> archive system to process.

I saw that getting the information from Exchange was a requirement, but no
mention of existing messages already locked up there.  In any case, if he
wants it coming out of Exchange for some reason, then I guess that's the
issue.  I have no idea what the butt end interface to exchange looks like,
although I would find it surprising if Microsoft's Exchange server can't
pass on messages via SMTP or allow existing ones to be retrieved via POP3.
There must be a lot of existing software for those.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\11@093650 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I have no idea what the butt end interface to exchange looks like,
> although I would find it surprising if Microsoft's Exchange server can't
> pass on messages via SMTP or allow existing ones to be retrieved via POP3..
> There must be a lot of existing software for those.

"Some manufacturers" have a strong tendency to provide data paths into
their systems and little or no path out. The highly creative also tend
to obfuscate formats and make it hard to cleanly separate individual
records. But, I know you know that.

There is a large amount of software around, free and for $,  which
attempts to extract individual emails from various versions of
Microsoft's email files and or systems, with varying degrees of
success. I think that very little if any of it is made by Microsoft.
uS have been unable so far to place a full scale event horizon around
"their" data, but I imagine they are working on it.


        Russel

2010\09\11@093844 by Rolf

flavicon
face


On 07/09/2010 10:25 AM, rolf wrote:
>   Sometime this coming weekend I'll be restoring my web server to it's
> previous state (any port 80 requests will instead redirect to a secure
> login page requiring a security certificate, etc.). I'll also schedule for
> Google to rescan http://www.tuis.net which will likely purge the google cache for
> the URLs (when restored, the robots.txt will discourage spiders).
>
>

An update....

There have been 71 unique IP's (other than myself and google) to access the site.

I am doing an upgrade of my system this weekend (now), so it is now offline..

Cheers all.

Rolf

2010\09\11@100408 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
RussellMc wrote:
> "Some manufacturers" have a strong tendency to provide data paths into
> their systems and little or no path out. The highly creative also tend
> to obfuscate formats and make it hard to cleanly separate individual
> records. But, I know you know that.

I know of one case where the site was supposedly running a Exchange server,
and internal people could fetch mail via POP3 using clients of their choice..
Maybe there was some extra bolt-on software not from Microsoft on the
Exchange server, but I was told that POP3 merely had to be "enabled".  Lots
of chance for garbled information between actually and what I heard, though..


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\11@105527 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I know of one case where the site was supposedly running a Exchange server,
> and internal people could fetch mail via POP3 using clients of their choice.

Yes. A quick gargoyling suggests that you could do this from version 5.0 on..
Nice to see that the event horizon still doesn't exist :-).


2010\09\13@165656 by Joe Koberg

flavicon
face
 It seemed simple enough to me to connect Thunderbird to the IMAP port of the corporate Exchange server here, let it download messages, and then go find the mbox-formatted file in my profile directory.

You can also select and "Save As..." the messages, and it saves them as separate .eml files in apparently raw SMTP-like format (like maildir)

I presume this all works with a POP3 account as well.

The new Thunderbird account setup wizard is virtually unusable to anyone who already knows or has "nonstandard" configurations. Enter dummy info and hit the "stop" button during its mandatory autoconfig attempt to get back to manual mode.

And turn off your virus scanner. McAffee is killing the CPU dead as thunderbird downloads messages.


Joe Koberg AE5NE



On 9/10/2010 2:18 AM, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\09\13@171030 by Joe Koberg

flavicon
face
 Fetchmail can run an arbitrary program as its "mail delivery agent", and a standard one is "procmail" which will append to a local file.

A worked example can be found here
http://www.ioncannon.net/system-administration/97/using-fetchmail-and-procmail-for-maildir-style-storage-from-a-pop3-account/



Joe Koberg AE5NE





On 9/10/2010 6:43 PM, James Newton wrote:
> I had not seen this one, but it doesn't appear to have the ability to write
> the fetched email out to a file. I'm sure the source code could be used, but
> I don't have the time.
>
> --
> James Newton
> 1-970-462-7764
>
> {Original Message removed}

2010\09\14@153212 by James Newton

face picon face
I've always used SQL to index the title of the post, the date, and the
author.
Tried using SQL before for the entire message, but found it slowed as the
archive filled and searching message body was abysmal. Probably some issue
with MS SQL Server, I'm sure the *nix version manages it perfectly. Anyway,
I moved the emails into text files and index them from the SQL database
which contains only the minimum.
The OS does a good job of archiving many separate files as long as you don't
put to many in one directory (I don't); access is lightning fast, and the
content index on the old server was actually faster than the SQL text
search. That is to say, it moved from horribly slow to achingly slow. On the
new server, searches seem to be quite zippy once the indexes are in
memory... the first search is slow, after that, it's quick.
--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\14@154440 by James Newton

face picon face
Didn't notice that about fetchmail... but procmail seems to be a *nix thing
not available on M$.

Anyway, the code that will be written for this project is specific: It takes
POP3 and writes it to a file. I like small, targeted tools that work
together. If I could make *nix work, I'd love it.

As long as POP3 exists and people want to archive emails, this little
project should be of use.

I've paid the $250 and expect to have code to test in 5 days. Now the
question is when will I actually get the time to test it... between taxes,
server crashes at the day job (Do NOT try to run ESET NOD32 for Exchange on
a SBS 2008 server), and the kids going back to school (homeschool, more
work, not less when the start). Sorry... felt the need to grump. LOL...

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\14@155728 by Marechiare

picon face
> On the new server, searches seem to be quite zippy once the
> indexes are in memory... the first search is slow, after that, it's quick..

For the money you invested you could have RAM many times more in
GBytes than the entire PICList archieve database. MS SQL Server is a
really good product in my opinion. You just need to use it
efficiently

2010\09\14@161952 by Joe Koberg

flavicon
face


On 9/14/2010 2:44 PM, James Newton wrote:
> Didn't notice that about fetchmail... but procmail seems to be a *nix thing
> not available on M$.
>
> Anyway, the code that will be written for this project is specific: It takes
> POP3 and writes it to a file. I like small, targeted tools that work
> together. If I could make *nix work, I'd love it.
>

That is exactly the philosophy of unix. The programs "do one task well" and are composable in pipelines and other arrangements.

Please do carry on with the development project, but if you really wanted to you can run Fetchmail, Procmail, and just about any other Unix/POSIX program under Cygwin (which implements the POSIX API under windows).

If you install Bash under Windows, you basically get a CMD.EXE alternative that gives you a Unix prompt (And a way to run Unix shell scripts).

If you install OpenSSH, you can SSH into your Windows machine and be greeted with a CMD prompt or a Bash '$' prompt with PWD in "C:\Users\whoever" !   And then tunnel port 3389 through the SSH server to reach RDP on the same machine... I setup a friend's remote access this way so the RDP port isn't exposed to the world. (the SSH port is)

The point being that you don't have to run Unix to run Unix programs.   Even graphical programs run with a locally installed Win32 X server.

Cheers!

Joe Koberg AE5NE



http://www.cygwin.com/ "Cygwin is a Linux-like environment for Windows. It consists of two parts: 1) A DLL (cygwin1.dll) which acts as a Linux API emulation layer providing substantial Linux API functionality.
2) A collection of tools which provide Linux look and feel."









{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}


'[OT] piclist.com archive up but no updates or full'
2010\10\07@182137 by James Newton
face picon face
Well, that 5 days turned into more than 15, but that is as much my fault as
it is his... I had some emergencies come up that interfered and there was
some minor miscommunication.
I just got the code installed and tested and it works a treat! Quick and it
looks right. There are a couple of minor tweaks we are working on, but I
expect to see the archive back up to real time very soon.

I don't have the posts from the middle of July, If you have an private
archive that contains the headers as well as the email body, please zip up
and send me July. Someone was going to send it, and I didn't hear back... Or
I don't remember hearing back and can't find the email.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\10\07@210011 by James Newton

face picon face
Ok, That went better than expected... The archive is up to date, although
posts may lag a day or so for the next few days before I let it go fully
automatic.

PLEASE: If you have the posts from July 16th to July 23rd, /WITH/ the
headers on them, please email them to me? Thank you!

I've also gotten the picons working again, so those of you whose faces I've
found will show up with your mug next to your message.
Also, I fixed multiple bugs in the wiki features of the main site. It is
once again allowing people to post comments, questions, and code listings,
and to make an account and create and edit pages. Many thanks to Bob Blick
for directing Andries Tip to me and to Andries Tip for pointing out the
problems and patiently testing as I fixed them.

Search is next on the list... I've got it pretty close to working... just
need to find the time to finish it up and polish a bit.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

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