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'[OT] oil heating'
2011\05\06@142649 by Mark E. Skeels

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[SNIP]

It's infrequent enough that I suspect it amounts to a very small fraction of overall oil usage

Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?

Can it be more economical than natural gas?

??

2011\05\06@143936 by Olin Lathrop

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Mark E. Skeels wrote:
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?
> Can it be more economical than natural gas?

I don't know how you inferred that oil heat is "prevalent" in the east from
my single statement.  However, it's certainly not uncommon.  In my
particular instance and that of many others all over the country, natural
gas isn't a option since that requires utility infrastructure.  The only
utilities near my house are electrical (power, phone, internet, cable).
There is no gas, water, or sewer to hook up to.  This is quite common
outside of "city" areas.

Long ago I rented a apartment in Lowell, a nearby small city.  There the
heat was powered by natural gas.  The gas company could profitably run a gas
main down the street and hook up lots of customers.  The houses were mostly
multi-family and dense-packed onto 1/4 acre lots.

The cost/benefit to the gas company is very different in rural areas.  The
minimum zoning (with various exceptions) in Groton is 2 acres, for example,
and then there are lots of unbuilt areas too.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\05\06@144225 by Chris Smolinski

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On May 6, 2011, at 2:27 PM, Mark E. Skeels wrote:

> [SNIP]
>
> It's infrequent enough that I suspect it amounts to a very small
> fraction of overall oil usage
>
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?
>
> Can it be more economical than natural gas?


Much of the rural northeast (and non rural New England IIRC) doesn't have natural gas lines. It's oil or propane. We're in Maryland and there's no natural gas line here, but there is "in town".


Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com


2011\05\06@145704 by Mark E. Skeels

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I spent 20 years in a rural Illinois area before moving into the city. We had a Charmaster Chalet combination oil/wood furnace  for about 10 of those years.

http://www.charmaster.com/

There was a sawmill in a nearby town where you could by slab wood (oak) for $20/ton.

But near the end of that time, the quality of the heating oil available deteriorated (I can think of no other explanation) so that it was not able to operate reliably even after repeated service calls. It had a standard, modern Wayne cartridge-type oil burner.

So we installed a high efficiency furnace that ran on propane.

Almost everyone else in the area used propane as well; it was very common because farmers around here use propane-fueled dryers to remove moisture from their corn.

I assumed from that experience that propane would always be more economical than oil.

My assumption about widespread use of oil on the east coast comes from impressions I have gotten over the years. They may be in error.

Mark

On 5/6/2011 1:40 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\05\06@150608 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, 06 May 2011 13:27 -0500, "Mark E. Skeels" wrote:
>
> It's infrequent enough that I suspect it amounts to a very small
> fraction of overall oil usage
>
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?

Towns and cities that were built before too much thought was paid to
infrastructure, or any way to supply it.

Where I live there are no overhead wires, everything is underground. And
we have natural gas. There was nothing here but open fields before 1970.

No gigabit fiber though :(

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2011\05\06@153457 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 13:27 -0500, Mark E. Skeels wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
> It's infrequent enough that I suspect it amounts to a very small
> fraction of overall oil usage
>
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?

I don't think you can infer that.

It's simple: what do you do if you don't HAVE a natural gas feed? MANY
areas, especially more rural ones don't have a natural gas feed.

Your choices then pretty much become: propane, oil and leccy.

Where I'm from propane is more popular, but oil is common enough.
Propane has the issue of leaks can result in the house blowing up. Oil
has the issue of leaks can result in your properly being labelled an
environmental disaster.

Most people avoid electricity because of the higher costs then burning
propane or oil.

> Can it be more economical than natural gas?

Usually not, otherwise people with natural gas supplies would use it.
The fact that a truck doesn't have to come to your location to refill
your tank alone probably has something to do with the savings.

TTYL

2011\05\06@154043 by Mark E. Skeels

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[SNIP]

Your choices then pretty much become: propane, oil and leccy.

leccy == electricity..........A-Ha

2011\05\06@163740 by Carl Denk

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Here in semi-rural Northern Ohio, the gas mains out front are spotty, but there are several other alternatives to Electric, fuel oil, and propane:
1: 34 years ago we spent $8,000 to drill a 1000' natural gas well. Only money we have put into it since is 2 years ago, $4000 to slide a 120' of casing inside the casing that had a water leak. Well provides enough  gas to heat, kitchen, dryer, hot water, and garage heat except for maybe once a year very cold weather we get $25 of backup electric heat. Today the well would cost probably $25,000 to drill. The 1000' deep well requires 100' radius of well owning the mineral rights, and 200' from a house per Ohio regulations.
2: There are numerous production natural gas wells, 1800' deep in the area. Usually 1 or 2 houses get free gas plus the royalty on the production gas. But it has happened when the production volume goes down (age), the well is capped, and the house is left with having to change to another source, frequently means a new furnace, etc.
3: Wood furnaces are not uncommon, there are numerous hardwood sawmills within and hour drive, and slab wood is readily available at good prices.
4: Our township service department garage is heated with used engine oil. They have collection during semi-annual recycling/rubbish collection, getting 1000 gallons per year which is about their usage.
5: For those with fuel oil furnaces, consider the Beckett high efficiency burners that can be retrofitted. They are local and have excellent products.
http://www.beckettcorp.com/

On 05/06/2011 02:27 PM, Mark E. Skeels wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
> It's infrequent enough that I suspect it amounts to a very small
> fraction of overall oil usage
>
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?
>
> Can it be more economical than natural gas?
>
> ??

2011\05\06@164200 by Mark E. Skeels

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Sheesh. You have your own natural gas well?

I am surprised they let you do that.

That is great.

I want one.    :-)

Mark Skeels
Engineer
Competition Electronics, Inc.
TEL: 815-874-8001
FAX: 815-874-8181
http://www.competitionelectronics.com

On 5/6/2011 3:37 PM, Carl Denk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> ??

2011\05\06@171150 by Carl Denk

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I don't know, we tried 3 wells for water and there was none. we put in a 8000 gallon cistern and collect the roof water which along with buying trucked water was our water supply for 6 months, when city water came available. The well driller pointed to a half dozen gas wells in the area, and we contracted with him to take the last water hole down for gas. at 120' he broke through a rock layer, and gas came bubbling up through the salt water. Most states allow this type well, but you need a fairly large  area for safety for the house, but the well is quite safe, where the highest pressure we see is 50 psi. Even if the top would blow off the well, it would take a very short time for the pressure to dissipate. A production well in the area can get to more than 1000 psi. The radius which gets bigger as you go deeper is so you don't steal the neighbor's gas.

On 05/06/2011 04:42 PM, Mark E. Skeels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>>> ??

2011\05\06@182344 by mcd

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Mark E. Skeels wrote:

> Can it be more economical than natural gas?

Like many answers, "it depends".

Here in Michigan both natural gas and oil are fairly common.  The price of
natural gas dropped sharply a while back, causing many people using oil to
switch.  A couple years later it spiked and oil was cheaper.

Even if you have a gas main out in the street, bringing the line into the
house after the fact can be obscenely expensive.  With high efficiency oil
furnaces, even here in the frozen north it would take decades to recover
the cost of conversion, even though natural gas is *currently* less
expensive.  And given the volatility, it would be a poor bet it will stay
that way.

--McD

2011\05\07@163834 by Jeff Stevens

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On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Mark E. Skeels
<spam_OUTmskeelsTakeThisOuTspamcompetitionelectronics.com> wrote:
> Why is it that using oil for heat is prevalent in the east?

It's a combination of cold winters and lack of alternatives.  In the
Northeast picture -10F at night and 20F above in the areas not
immediately adjacent to the relatively temperate Atlantic coastline
combined with few alternatives to oil and it's a recipe for craziness.
In Maine we didn't even have a pipeline to bring gas into the area
until 2000 -- let alone a distribution system in the few urban areas.
 My understanding is that we use the most heating oil per capita in
the nation.  While we have abundant and reasonably priced wood, many
people don't want the maintenance hassle and those who don't mind
sometimes have to deal with grief from neighbors and politicians about
the pollution.  My personal preference is a wood fired boiler or wood
stove with oil backup but the upfront costs are expensive, it's high
maintenance -- and it still involves oil.

-Jef

2011\05\08@044627 by Jesse Lackey

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I missed this thread, but to add OT to OT - Michael Bloomberg, mayor of NYC, recently announced the long-term phaseout of heating oil in new york, with various incentives and rebates and the like for building owners with oil heat.  Apparently, the burning of heating oil #4 and #6 (no idea what the numbers mean) contribute more to air pollution than all the cars, buses, taxis and trucks *combined*.

As a former nyc resident, this somewhat shocking factoid makes me wonder just what the heck took so long to address this.

Fortunately, here in oh so chilly california, my house was built (many decades ago) with natural gas feed.

Cheers all
J





.....mcdKILLspamspam@spam@is-sixsigma.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2011\05\08@074201 by Mike

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Oil heat is very common in New England due to the fact that much if the housing there is older and natural gas was not available. Oil used to be very cheap. Once you get outside of the major metro areas in the USA there is not much availability of natural gas.
Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2011, at 4:46 AM, Jesse Lackey <jsl-mlspamKILLspamcelestialaudio.com> wrote:

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> -

2011\05\08@102333 by peter green

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Jesse Lackey wrote:
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>>

2011\05\08@115948 by nextime

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On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 03:35:26PM -0400, Herbert Graf wrote:
> Your choices then pretty much become: propane, oil and leccy.
> > Where I'm from propane is more popular, but oil is common enough.
Where i'm from, oil *was* common, but now laws doesn't permit to use it.

Propane isn't used at all, natural gas is very common, electricity is commot too.

Anyway, there are more choices in latest years, one of those is the one i've done: Where is my home, there is natural gas, electricity, and all the rest, but i've choosed to use a geothermic implant. i don't use it
only for hot water, but also for heating and refrigeration of the  whole house,
anyway, with a little implant, you can use it also only for let me say
500/600 litres of hot water.

Of course it depend on electricity for a heat pump, but it is a good technology and,
in my experience, it work pretty good and it isn't expansive. Also, assuming you have electricity, it is feasible even in the most rural zone,
as it doesn't depend on any "external" distribution network.


--
Franco (nextime) Lanza
Busto Arsizio - Italy
SIP://casaspamspam_OUTcasa.nexlab.it

NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
you can download my public key at:
http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
Key ID = D6132D50
Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7  4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
-----------------------------------
echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc
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2011\05\08@171105 by Jesse Lackey

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So you're saying 73.8% of all statistics are made up?
:)

point taken.
J


peter green wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2011\05\09@003320 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On May 6, 2011, at 12:06 PM, Bob Blick wrote:

> Towns and cities that were built before too much thought was paid to
> infrastructure, or any way to supply it.

It'd be nice if places continued to pay attention to such  infrastructure after it was built.  I don't know how much national  attention it got, but last year a 30inch natural gas pipeline not far  from where I live exploded, killing 8 people and destroying 38 homes.

While I have my doubts about the demands now being placed on the  operator (PG&E), it seems hard to claim anything better than  negligence.  Apparently a weld failed in a section of pipe where the  records indicated that the pipe was not welded, and PG&E was unable to  produced records of testing of other pipelines which were subsequently  requested...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

BillW

2011\05\11@023320 by Sean Breheny

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Along the same lines: I saw a great bumper sticker a few weeks ago. It
said "People who use hyperbole should be shot."  :)

Sean


On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Jesse Lackey <KILLspamjsl-mlKILLspamspamcelestialaudio.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

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