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'[OT] model 12-cylinder engine'
2011\11\24@161041 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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www.wimp.com/tiniestengine/

2011\11\24@170506 by V G

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM, William "Chops" Westfield
<spam_OUTwestfwTakeThisOuTspammac.com> wrote:
> http://www.wimp.com/tiniestengine/

That is very beautiful. Pure art.

Questions:

1. In the beginning, when he was using the lathe to make the camshaft,
what metal was the camshaft made of? What metal was the cutter made
of?

2. What metal are the cylinders and pistons made of?

3. At the end where he was demonstrating the engine running, was it
being powered by compressed gas or internal combustion?

4. What metal are the cylinders and pistons of car engines made of?
What is the temperature of combustion inside the cylinder? (I'm
curious if the alloy that the cylinders are made of can be
bored/lathed/machined by a hobbyist of it's simply too expensive/hard
(as in hardness of metal) to bore yourself

2011\11\24@172241 by Dwayne Reid

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At 03:04 PM 11/24/2011, V G wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM, William "Chops" Westfield
><.....westfwKILLspamspam@spam@mac.com> wrote:
> > http://www.wimp.com/tiniestengine/
>
>That is very beautiful. Pure art.

Agreed!

>Questions:
>
>1. In the beginning, when he was using the lathe to make the camshaft,
>what metal was the camshaft made of? What metal was the cutter made
>of?

Most everything looked as if it were made from free-machining brass.  That's what the turnings coming off the lathe looked like to me.


>2. What metal are the cylinders and pistons made of?

I *think* brass also.


>3. At the end where he was demonstrating the engine running, was it
>being powered by compressed gas or internal combustion?

It was being powered from compressed air.

No sign of spark plugs or wires and I don't think that there was ANY way that he could achieve the compression ratio required for diesel.

Nor was there anything that looked like it could be used for timing (either spark plugs or injectors).


>4. What metal are the cylinders and pistons of car engines made of?
>What is the temperature of combustion inside the cylinder? (I'm
>curious if the alloy that the cylinders are made of can be
>bored/lathed/machined by a hobbyist of it's simply too expensive/hard
>(as in hardness of metal) to bore yourself.

No real idea, but I do know that home machinists do custom internal-combustion engine parts on a regular basis.  I suspect there is much information available online.

dwayne


-- Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\24@175048 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 24/11/2011 20:04, V G escreveu:
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM, William "Chops" Westfield
> <.....westfwKILLspamspam.....mac.com> wrote:
>> http://www.wimp.com/tiniestengine/
> That is very beautiful. Pure art.
>
> Questions:

> 4. What metal are the cylinders and pistons of car engines made of?


Aluminum aloy.


> What is the temperature of combustion inside the cylinder?


I don't know values. The gasses become very hot but don't have time to
transfer too much heat to the metal parts because the parts are
continuously being cooled, and if the cooling system fails, the
temperature can melt steel (around 1500 degrees celsius).

>  (I'm
> curious if the alloy that the cylinders are made of can be
> bored/lathed/machined by a hobbyist of it's simply too expensive/hard
> (as in hardness of metal) to bore yourself.


The cylinder sleeves are very hard steel, but engine repair shops
bore/lathe/machine them frequently.

2011\11\24@183457 by Marc Nicholas

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM, William "Chops" Westfield
<EraseMEwestfwspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmac.com>wrote:

> http://www.wimp.com/tiniestengine/


Wow. Absolutely incredible! Beautifully put together as a video, too.

Thanks for sharing! :)

-

2011\11\24@183657 by V G

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<isaacbavarescospamspam_OUTyahoo.com.br> wrote:
>> 4. What metal are the cylinders and pistons of car engines made of?
>
> Aluminum aloy.

Aluminum has a pretty low melting point on its own. What melting point
would the alloy be (approximately)?

In any case, it would seem that the flame temperature of the fuel is
greater than the melting point of the metals. Is the sufficient
cooling the only thing keeping the engine from melting

>> What is the temperature of combustion inside the cylinder?
>
> I don't know values. The gasses become very hot but don't have time to
> transfer too much heat to the metal parts because the parts are
> continuously being cooled, and if the cooling system fails, the
> temperature can melt steel (around 1500 degrees celsius).

Model aircraft/car engines burn nitromethane  (a mixture of about 30%
nitromethane with methanol) with a flame temperature of approximately
2400 degrees C (of pure nitromethane) but they're air cooled. What's
keeping them from melting

2011\11\24@190433 by Alex Harford

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:36 PM, V G <@spam@x.solarwind.xKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> <KILLspamisaacbavarescoKILLspamspamyahoo.com.br> wrote:
>>> 4. What metal are the cylinders and pistons of car engines made of?
>>
>> Aluminum aloy.
>
> Aluminum has a pretty low melting point on its own. What melting point
> would the alloy be (approximately)?
>
> In any case, it would seem that the flame temperature of the fuel is
> greater than the melting point of the metals. Is the sufficient
> cooling the only thing keeping the engine from melting

Various failure modes of pistons:

http://www.theultralightplace.com/pistons.ht

2011\11\24@190541 by Marc Nicholas

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:36 PM, V G <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

>
> Aluminum has a pretty low melting point on its own. What melting point
> would the alloy be (approximately)?
>
> In any case, it would seem that the flame temperature of the fuel is
> greater than the melting point of the metals. Is the sufficient
> cooling the only thing keeping the engine from melting


You're missing two physical properties here. 1) The amount of time involved
is very, very short and then the hot gases are exhausted. 2) The
temperature is not just the combustion temperature of the fuel, but that of
the fuel plus oxidizer (stoichiometry).

-

2011\11\24@191655 by V G

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Marc Nicholas <spamBeGonegeekythingspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
> You're missing two physical properties here. 1) The amount of time involved
> is very, very short and then the hot gases are exhausted. 2) The
> temperature is not just the combustion temperature of the fuel, but that of
> the fuel plus oxidizer (stoichiometry).

Totally forgot about the time. Thanks

2011\11\24@210700 by John Gardner

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....The cylinder sleeves are very hard steel,..

"Hard" sleeves are unusual in most apps - Ring seating is problematic.

"Tough" sleeves are a different story - The durability of many Japanese
engines is in part due to the relatively high nickel content of the cast iron
used, which makes for a long-wearing surface, but is not particularly "hard".

Jac

2011\11\24@211800 by John Gardner

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I might add that Aluminum cylinders are not unusual in
automotive apps - Daimler-Benz, for instance.

Fringe manufacturers have even been known to use
Aluminium.

Jac

2011\11\24@221430 by Peter Johansson

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Dwayne Reid <TakeThisOuTdwaynerEraseMEspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net> wrote:

> No real idea, but I do know that home machinists do custom
> internal-combustion engine parts on a regular basis.  I suspect there
> is much information available online.

I saw this one just the other day; it was still in my browser history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DijdisWkAE

-p.

2011\11\25@010954 by V G

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Peter Johansson
<RemoveMErockets4kidsspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> I saw this one just the other day; it was still in my browser history:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DijdisWkAE

Very cool. I wish I could make something like that from start to finish.

That way, in a post apocalyptic world, I'd be able to build my own
crude methane powered buggy like in Mad Max

2011\11\25@014003 by Peter Johansson

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On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:09 AM, V G <x.solarwind.xEraseMEspam.....gmail.com> wrote:

> Very cool. I wish I could make something like that from start to finish.
>
> That way, in a post apocalyptic world, I'd be able to build my own
> crude methane powered buggy like in Mad Max.

I have seen lawnmower engines powered from basic homebrew digesters,
as well as videos of automobiles powered with biogas during WW-II.  In
a post-apocalyptic world, you would probably have no shortage of
engines to work with.  The trick, I imagine, would be building a
carburetor for a more efficient engine.

-p

2011\11\25@045537 by Electron

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And it's almost universally used in cylinders of motorbikes (at least modern racing ones).


At 03.17 2011.11.25, you wrote:
>I might add that Aluminum cylinders are not unusual in
>automotive apps - Daimler-Benz, for instance.
>
>Fringe manufacturers have even been known to use
>Aluminium.
>
> Jack
>

2011\11\25@045538 by Electron

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At 07.40 2011.11.25, you wrote:
>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:09 AM, V G <EraseMEx.solarwind.xspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Very cool. I wish I could make something like that from start to finish.
>>
>> That way, in a post apocalyptic world, I'd be able to build my own
>> crude methane powered buggy like in Mad Max.
>
>I have seen lawnmower engines powered from basic homebrew digesters,
>as well as videos of automobiles powered with biogas during WW-II.  In
>a post-apocalyptic world, you would probably have no shortage of
>engines to work with.  The trick, I imagine, would be building a
>carburetor for a more efficient engine.

In a post-apocalyptic world I'd make myself a electric engine's powered car,
and I'd recharge it at home using solar panels (one on the ceiling of the car
too, you never know, it may take one month to make 100 km's, but I'd be able
to return home, if I can eat and drink something in the while, that is :D )..

2011\11\25@054512 by Walter Banks

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Peter Johansson wrote:

>  The trick, I imagine, would be building a
> carburetor for a more efficient engine.
>

The current engine controllers have efficient carburation. They use
fuel injection with a model of the relationship between time of the
incoming air and its location during detonation. The fuel metering is
adjusted every 2-4 microseconds to get uniform mixing.

There is a reason my SUV gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle.

Walter..

2011\11\25@071110 by Electron

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At 11.42 2011.11.25, you wrote:
>
>
>Peter Johansson wrote:
>
>>  The trick, I imagine, would be building a
>> carburetor for a more efficient engine.
>>
>
>The current engine controllers have efficient carburation. They use
>fuel injection with a model of the relationship between time of the
>incoming air and its location during detonation.

What does have detonation to do with normal combustion? When detonation
occurs, the ignition time is retarded and/or the A/F ratio is made less
lean. When detonation is not detected, it doesn't enter into the equation
of the injection (or of the ignition) at all.


>The fuel metering is adjusted every 2-4 microseconds to get uniform mixing..

What? 2-4 microseconds means 30000000-15000000 RPM, while the A/F ratio
is adjusted at best every revolution of the engine (2 on 4 strokes).

There are injectors that spray more than one time per revolution cycle, but
nothing comparable to 2-4 uS. Remember they are solenoid valves.

It doesn't make sense neither that the ECU recalculates anything every 2-4uS,
as it would be pointless anyway. Or you mean a time resolution of 2-4uS? Well,
that is pretty normal, they are microcontrollers with multi MHz range clocks.


>There is a reason my SUV gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle.

Yes, and it's probably not this!

Cheers,
Mario

2011\11\25@122545 by John Ferrell

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On 11/25/2011 1:40 AM, Peter Johansson wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:09 AM, V G<RemoveMEx.solarwind.xEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> Very cool. I wish I could make something like that from start to finish.
>>
>> That way, in a post apocalyptic world, I'd be able to build my own
>> crude methane powered buggy like in Mad Max.
> I have seen lawnmower engines powered from basic homebrew digesters,
> as well as videos of automobiles powered with biogas during WW-II.  In
> a post-apocalyptic world, you would probably have no shortage of
> engines to work with.  The trick, I imagine, would be building a
> carburetor for a more efficient engine.
>
> -p.
In my experience in the model airplane world a lot of folks can build a workable engine, but very few can build a usable carburetor.
The same can be said about ignition systems. With model airplane engines the ignition problem can be side stepped by using methanol based fuel and glow plugs.



-- John Ferrell W8CCW
"The man who complains about the way the
ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."

2011\11\26@135948 by Walter Banks

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Electron wrote:

{Quote hidden}

When detonation is detected the mixture for the next few cycles at that
point is leaned to oxidize the carbon particle the usual cause of detonation.

> >The fuel metering is adjusted every 2-4 microseconds to get uniform mixing.
>
> What? 2-4 microseconds means 30000000-15000000 RPM, while the A/F ratio
> is adjusted at best every revolution of the engine (2 on 4 strokes).

The fuel flow rate is being adjusted every 2-4 microseconds on some cars
actually many cars. The days of simple one shot injectors has essentially gone.

> It doesn't make sense neither that the ECU recalculates anything every 2-4uS,
> as it would be pointless anyway. Or you mean a time resolution of 2-4uS? Well,
> that is pretty normal, they are microcontrollers with multi MHz range clocks.
>
> >There is a reason my SUV gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle.

Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com

2011\11\27@122844 by Electron

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Dear Walter,


At 20.02 2011.11.26, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

While carbon spots are often the cause of preignition (thus possibly also of
detonation), leaning the A/F ratio will very likely cause detonation itself..

My experience is with racing motorbike engines, not cars, however I think it
applies to a good extent.

Could You please quote some doc online where they say that when detonation is
detected they actually advance, instead of retarding, the ignition?


>> >The fuel metering is adjusted every 2-4 microseconds to get uniform mixing.
>>
>> What? 2-4 microseconds means 30000000-15000000 RPM, while the A/F ratio
>> is adjusted at best every revolution of the engine (2 on 4 strokes).
>
>The fuel flow rate is being adjusted every 2-4 microseconds on some cars
>actually many cars. The days of simple one shot injectors has essentially gone.

While I know that some modern automotive injector "spray" more than once every
engine revolution (to improve pulverization), how can a mechanical valve (solenoid
or even piezo) move that quickly?

Specifically, injectors I know that open in less than 1 ms (which is already a
very fast injector!) tend to cost a lot.

Moreover, a fast injector that opens and closes multi-times per cycle would
improve pulverization and homogeneity of mixture a bit, but 2-4 us, even if it
could be achieved (I would be grateful if You could point me to an injector on
the Net that does it) what would improve? You need to bring A/F mixture into
the cylinder in the inlet phase, four strokes (even more SUV ones) don't really
have any problems with "normal" injectors.. racing 2 strokes would benefit more,
but 2-4us per "spray" is an unbelievably (and apparently unnecessary) short time
for a mechanical device.

With kind regards,
Mario

2011\11\28@114406 by M.L.

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On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Walter Banks <RemoveMElcwb13spam_OUTspamKILLspamsympatico.ca> wrote:
> There is a reason my SUV gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle.

It must be a small SUV and a really "bad" motorcycle. What are they?

I'll guess -
Toyota RAV4 and a Harley?


My 1983 Honda CM450 could still beat my Civic Hybrid for mileage (and
acceleration)

-- Martin K

2011\11\30@064955 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

I don't see how the fuelling could possibly be adjusted that frequently
when the injection duration itself is significantly (orders of
magnitude) longer, even on a direct injection gasoline engine.

Mike

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2011\11\30@160141 by Walter Banks

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Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

{Quote hidden}

The flow rate of the injector is being adjusted as it is injecting fuel
to track flow and mixing of the incoming air. Five or six years ago
this added a major improvement in fuel economy and a reduction
in engine maintenance.

w..

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