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'[OT] Yes, I canned Olin again'
2004\09\17@213134 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Please discuss it here rather than on the [EE] topic?

Or better yet, don't discuss it at all. If you don't like it, bloody leave
quietly. I've had it with him and no amount of ear bending is going to
change my mind. I think the other admins will back me up on this, and unless
someone wants to volunteer to be Olins "babysitter" and moderate all his
posts (which he has refused in the past anyway) I don't think any of us
(admins) want to continue to spend the time required to unsub all the
newbies he pisses off, reply to the offlist (thanks for keeping it offlist)
complaints from members, and generally grind our teeth on his hateful
attitude.

"...always with the negative vibes..."

We now return you to your regularly scheduled friendly conversation...

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2004\09\17@234216 by Alexandre Guimaraes

face picon face
Hi,

   At the other time Olin was banned I did not like it but agreed.. This
time he is being thrown out just because the other guy over reacted and Olin
did not even call the guy stupid this time... He just said that the mistake
was dumb...

   I volunteer to babysit and moderate all his posts if that is ok to you
and to him, James. We already lost Roman and many other important people to
the list. And I am sorry to say that they really make a difference. The
combined knowledge of other list members is much bigger than their knowledge
alone but they still  can make the list a better place. I am fully available
to take the "basysitter" place.

> Or better yet, don't discuss it at all. If you don't like it, bloody leave
> quietly. I've had it with him and no amount of ear bending is going to
> change my mind. I think the other admins will back me up on this, and
unless
> someone wants to volunteer to be Olins "babysitter" and moderate all his
> posts (which he has refused in the past anyway) I don't think any of us
> (admins) want to continue to spend the time required to unsub all the
> newbies he pisses off, reply to the offlist (thanks for keeping it
offlist)
> complaints from members, and generally grind our teeth on his hateful
> attitude.

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes



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2004\09\18@020628 by Rich

picon face
Is this list getting a little too politically correct?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexandre Guimaraes" <.....listasKILLspamspam@spam@logikos.com.br>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Yes, I canned Olin again


> Hi,
>
>     At the other time Olin was banned I did not like it but agreed.. This
> time he is being thrown out just because the other guy over reacted and
Olin
> did not even call the guy stupid this time... He just said that the
mistake
> was dumb...
>
>     I volunteer to babysit and moderate all his posts if that is ok to you
> and to him, James. We already lost Roman and many other important people
to
> the list. And I am sorry to say that they really make a difference. The
> combined knowledge of other list members is much bigger than their
knowledge
> alone but they still  can make the list a better place. I am fully
available
> to take the "basysitter" place.
>
> > Or better yet, don't discuss it at all. If you don't like it, bloody
leave
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\18@091341 by Lyle Hazelwood

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face
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I just have to comment on this one...

Regarding "Engineering Info" or whoever made that comment,
Obviously, language like that has no place being broadcast to
a list of 2000 peers, regardless of how you felt at the moment.
To be fair, I remember well the first time Olin slammed me, and I
wanted to reply in just the same way. It was only after I had seen
him slam others a few (dozen) times that I was able to assign
his opinion the appropriate amount of respect.

Olin has made some great contributions to the list, but also at
some considerable cost. How many have left because of his
sharp comments? What could they have contributed if they had
stayed? How many who are still here are less likely to respond
because they don't want to risk Olins delivery of public humiliation?

I support the decisions of the Admins completely. Whether or
not his most recent comments are offensive to any one of us,
Olin was allowed back under strict restrictions, and his comments
have managed to start another storm.

For myself, I'll have a lower profile on the list for a while. I'm expecting
delivery of my Amiga One motherboard this week, and will be going
all software long enough to get some things done there. I am sure I'll
be back though, I'm not finished playing with PIC's yet. 8^)

Big thanks to everyone here, and especially to the Admins!

Lyle


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part 3 194 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

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part 4 1 bytes

2004\09\18@094126 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Is this list getting a little too politically correct?

It's a complex issue [as most issues are :-(]
We only see part of it.

Olin got thrown off previously for "bad behaviour". The decision was
questioned by some, but the list owners decision is final.

In due course Olin returned.
He chose to hit the ground running.
He didn't ask the list owner if he could come back. He just decided to
return.
He basically called James out in his first post.
He essentially said that he could have come back anytime, that James
couldn't stop him, and that he'd been right last time and throwing him off
had been unwarranted. Hardly a good start to returning to a list after an
eviction. James took that in remarkably good spirit. In his position I would
have probably said something like "Welcome back. It's good to see you. Hope
you behave better this time. Take two weeks detention for a bad start -
you're evicted for another two weeks. See you at the end of that time. Click
...". No malice. No annoyance. just establishing basic ground rules.
But James let it rest.

Since then Olin has been MUCH better  behaved than before, but there has
still been an ongoing lower level of criticism of people in various forms. I
guess this is just  a feature of Olin's world view. I haven't been aware of
any comment by James on this. Maybe offlist. maybe not. Over time the level
of Olin's criticisms has escalated somewhat. Still far below what it was
before.

>From what James said in this instance, it sounds as though he has been
fielding off list complaints. I only deduce this from what he said and I may
have got it wrong. Olin is often superb value, but there is also a certain
amount of maintenance that goes with the value. (Most of the more visible
posters have maintenance in some form or other except Jinx. He's just rude
to everyone all the time so nobody minds :-) [[That's a joke, should anyone
wonder]]. The most important cost of rudeness to people is (I think) the
loss of newcomers who haven't been hardened in the fire of knee-jerk
criticism and abuse. Contrary to what Olin has said to the contrary , the
ability to withstand his criticism is not a good indication of your ability
to program microprocessors - not on this list anyway.

And a list owner is human and only has so much aggro capacity. If the damage
to newcomers and offlist complaints and general onlist upsetting exceeds a
certain (and unknown level) then "the last straw that breaks the camel's
back" can be a very minor one. Even one which by itself seem rather trivial.
It's the scalar sum of the vectors coming from all directions that counts
;-).

So, no, I don't think so. I don't think 'the list" is getting too PC. I
don't even think James is getting too PC. I was sad at james decision and I
wouldn't have dome what he did from my position - but viewing things from
his position I may well have. I wouldn't have kicked the inexcuseable Mr
Engineering Info off either at that stage. But I can see the point of doing
so.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\09\18@100937 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>Since then Olin has been MUCH better  behaved than before, but there has still been an ongoing lower level of criticism of people in various forms. I guess this is just  a feature of Olin's world view.

I worked with a fellow once, who was occasionally brilliant, and consistently good, but so abrasive and abusive that nobody would work with him by choice.  Pity, he could have accomplished much more..

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2004\09\18@110058 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:09:48 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> >Since then Olin has been MUCH better  behaved than before, but there has still been an ongoing lower level
of criticism of people in various forms. I guess this is just  a feature of Olin's world view.
>
> I worked with a fellow once, who was occasionally brilliant, and consistently good, but so abrasive and
abusive that nobody would work with him by choice.  Pity, he could have accomplished much more..

Me too (probably not the same bloke :-)  He was brilliant technically, and had the ability to solve any
problem as long as his ego didn't get in the way - if he was "convinced" that his analysis of the problem was
correct, he would never solve it on the rare occasions where he started out being wrong.  And this chap's
people-skills would have made Olin look like a touchy-feely-trendy-liberal!  :-)  At one time I was working at
a client's office where he was one of our team.  Thereafter the firm decided that the only way he was safe was
working in our office, and not visiting customers unless his boss went with him to act as minder...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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2004\09\18@125125 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Tell Olin.

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> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\18@144121 by Alexandre Guimaraes

face picon face
Hi, James

> Tell Olin.

   I just sent him a email... I am not sure how he will react at it, but it
is at least a try..

   Please do not get me wrong.. You do a great job as the list admin and
many decisions are tough to make. I respect your decision fully but I do not
have to agree with it..

   Thanks for helping the list survive and thanks for being flexible enough
to let me try to get a sometimes "angry" but valuable member back to the
group.


Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes


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2004\09\18@193554 by Joe Jansen

picon face
<G>

Well, I recently got "Olin-ized",  something about how I should be
ashamed of myself, and he wasn't going to waste time looking at the
code.

Needless to say, I was less than enthusiastic about the reply.  I did
my very best to bite my tongue, and feel I succeeded in the challenge.
By the end of the thread, I had even gotten some useful information
out of him!

Nonetheless, as Russell pointed out, James seems to have been dealing
with complaints off-list.  Also, this does not seem to have been a
knee-jerk reaction, as pointed out, since the other admins were also
involved in the decision.  Since this list is run by them, they are in
charge of making the decisions.  Anyone that wants a vote, I am sure,
would be welcomed among the administrative ranks.

I guess that I support, with concern, the decision to boot Olin, since
I am a list-leech who gains far more than contributing.

On the other hand, Engineering Info got the boot, and good riddance!
I cannot even feel bad for someone who is unable to control their
tongue/fingers, as the case may be.

Thank you, James and the rest of the admins, for continuing to manage
this list, and provide such an excellent resource for those of us who
need the occasional hand!

--Joe Jansen


On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:31:14 -0700, James Newtons Massmind
<EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmassmind.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\18@203456 by Strshttr

picon face
In a message dated 9/18/2004 6:43:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
@spam@joe.jansenKILLspamspamgmail.com writes:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:31:14 -0700, James Newtons Massmind
<KILLspamjamesnewtonKILLspamspammassmind.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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 My knowledge of pic microcontrollers consists of what I have been able to
learn from "Easy Microcontrol'n" and "Programming and Customizing Picmicro
Microcontrollers".  I had come to the Piclist thinking I could ask questions to
fill in the gaps.  I quickly found that most active members have forgotten more
than I hope to learn and I will not ask any questions period because of
personalities you are discussing here.  You see this situation as a loss of
knowledge to the pool.  I see it as a guy on the outside of the fence looking in
knowing I can't tap the knowledge.  I already know I know nothing.  I do not need
some one enjoying telling me so.  Also I can tell 99.9% of the group are OK
people. I hope I don't get taken wrong, but this is how I feel.
Steve Sullivan  
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2004\09\18@221254 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 08:34:49PM -0400, spamBeGoneStrshttrspamBeGonespamaol.com wrote:
>
>  My knowledge of pic microcontrollers consists of what I have been able to
>learn from "Easy Microcontrol'n" and "Programming and Customizing Picmicro
>Microcontrollers".  I had come to the Piclist thinking I could ask questions
>to fill in the gaps.

That's pretty good thinking.

>  I quickly found that most active members have forgotten
>more than I hope to learn and I will not ask any questions period because of
>personalities you are discussing here.

That's not good. While it's true that there are members that have a vast
pool of knowledge, it should be inaccessible to those just getting started.

The flip side of it is that you do have to show a bit of common sense, and
to take some initiative to describe what's going on. I usually point newbies
in any area to Eric S. Raymonds FAQ on "How to ask Questions the Smart way."
You can find it here:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

And it does in fact address the cut short, don't bother me type of abrasive
folks that you may encounter.

>  You see this situation as a loss of
>knowledge to the pool.  I see it as a guy on the outside of the fence looking
>in knowing I can't tap the knowledge.

You can. And you should. All you really have to do is spend a minute describing
how you got to where you are, and how you've tried to solve your problems.
This usually gives enough insight to point you where to go.

But if the answer can be found in a 5 second Google search, or is something
that has been discussed over and over here on the list, you can expect to
catch some flak about it. Just a simple "I checked google and found <this> and
<that>. Then on the archives there is a posting like <the other>." But they
don't really address my problem because <of something else>." it shows that you
took the time to try to figure it out for yourself and why the pat answers
that are posted everywhere may not be applicable.

> I already know I know nothing.  I do
>not need some one enjoying telling me so.  Also I can tell 99.9% of the group
>are OK people. I hope I don't get taken wrong, but this is how I feel.

Feeling understood. But as you pointed out 99.9% of us are good folks happy
to talk about anything you bring to the table. Don't let the one or two crufty
curmudgeons deny you the ability to learn. I advise that you take the two
minutes necessary to see that the answer isn't posted in an obvious place.

I'm a Google junkie. Anything I have a question about, Google gets it first.
Why? Because a lot of times I can get near instant gratification without having
to consult anyone else, or having to wait for an answer. If you do the same,
and point it out when you post, then other folks will see that you're trying
and that they don't have to waste their time pointing you to an obvious answer
that you could have easily found yourself.

So I'm glad that you're here, and I'm looking forward to your questions. The
two books that you've read means that you are far removed from knowing nothing.

So bring it on.

BAJ
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2004\09\18@221323 by fred jones

picon face
Exactly!  In the same boat.  Joined the piclist...asked a question...1st response from Olin Lathrop...called me lazy and stupid...told him what I thought of him off list....took a loooooong time before I got brave enough to post again...don't think the worthy contributions outweigh the rude behavior...didn't miss him last time he got kicked won't miss him this time...thanks for listening...thanks to the admins...
FJ
(PS-I haven't done a spell check on this so please don't flame me for mis-spelled words)


From: TakeThisOuTStrshttrEraseMEspamspam_OUTaol.com
  My knowledge of pic microcontrollers consists of what I have been able to
learn from "Easy Microcontrol'n" and "Programming and Customizing Picmicro
Microcontrollers".  I had come to the Piclist thinking I could ask questions to
fill in the gaps.  I quickly found that most active members have forgotten more
than I hope to learn and I will not ask any questions period because of
personalities you are discussing here.  You see this situation as a loss of
knowledge to the pool.  I see it as a guy on the outside of the fence looking in
knowing I can't tap the knowledge.  I already know I know nothing.  I do not need
some one enjoying telling me so.  Also I can tell 99.9% of the group are OK
people. I hope I don't get taken wrong, but this is how I feel.
Steve Sullivan

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2004\09\18@223434 by Rich

picon face
Thank you for the comments, Russell.  My problem is that I try to be too
accepting of people, perhaps to a fault sometimes, I am sure.  I too can be
offended and spit back because I also have human frailty.  But it is usually
a matter of having my say and letting it go.  But as you point out, I am not
in the crossfire so I don't have the clearest perspective.
Rich


{Original Message removed}

2004\09\18@230716 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 18, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Byron A Jeff wrote:

>> I will not ask any questions period because of
>> personalities you are discussing here.
>
>
As a child, you're supposed to learn that you have to ask questions to
learn.
As an adult, you have to learn that sometimes people will make nasty
comments
about your questions, but you STILL have to ask the questions, anyway,
if
you want to learn anything.

Sometimes I think my chief contribution to some discussions is my
willingness
to provide several possible ideas that WILL NOT WORK, while everyone
else is
being quiet and trying not to look foolish.  Non-workable solutions
tend to
expose issues pretty well, and can start other people thinking along
different paths...

Someone mentioned not letting your ego get in the way.  That applies to
being willing to be insulted, as well as not insulting other people.

BillW

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2004\09\19@010536 by Ben Hencke

picon face
I do not have a strong opinion on Olin one way or the other. I have
been on both sides of that fence in the past. I have read posts that
made me wonder if the OP knew what a PIC was, and other posts that
seethed fire and brimstone so intense that I had a sunburn afterwards.

It would be nice to add a specific list of banned words to the rules
so that it is clear for everyone what the limits are. ie "dumb,
stupid, etc". I understand that personal insults are now allowed, but
how far does that reach? Can one say that something is silly or
absurd? Can one call some code poorly written or an idea flawed? Is it
ok to badger someone over spelling and capitalization or any of the
other flamebait? ([OT] of course)

Not that I plan on getting anywhere near the line ;-)
Just stuff that seems to be in the "piclist's missing manual"

- Ben
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2004\09\19@041334 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
"messages of hate" are what is prohibited. Sorry, but us admins get to
decide what that is on a case by case.

You have to go way out there to get canned for one post.  Telling someone to
F off would be an example.

You have to consistently be mildly insulting for a long time, after many
warnings, offlist discussion and much thought to get canned without
appearing to have gone way out there. Consistently belittling and bullying
people would be an example.

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> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\19@044144 by Peter Moreton

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face

I am a bit suprised that there is actually a discussion to be had here; In
our dealings with others, a basic level of civility is a must, and Olin has
repeatedly failed this test. We have all been very patient with Olin ( I for
one have buttoned my lip several times when seeing red at one of his posts )
but I think the time has come to recognise that he cannot help himself, and
if allowed onto the list, will always, eventually upset someone.

It is a pity to lose the positive aspect of his input, since he obviously
has a lot of experience and knowledge, however, we don't need Olin's
negative comments, and I fully support the list admins decision to remove
him, again.

Peter Moreton



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2004\09\19@082808 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face

I found Olin's posts entertaining in the same way I find Sean Hannity's
rantings entertaining.  They're both fundamentally correct but their methods
of expressing themselves leave a LOT to be desired.  For some reason I find
it entertaining to watch people arguing on TV or flaming on a list.  Why is
that?  Maybe I don't get enough excitement day-to-day...

Maybe Olin should get a talk show???

Carey Fisher, K8VZ

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2004\09\19@084652 by Jinx

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> For some reason I find it entertaining to watch people arguing on
> TV or flaming on a list.  Why is that?  Maybe I don't get enough
> excitement day-to-day...

Well, the basis of most entertainment (TV, books, films) is conflict.
Probably because humans like to see a resolution to a conflict. Which
explains the proliferation of Survivor-type "reality" (= cheap nasty s**t)
shows. Unfortunately the primary objective of the list is not to provide
(intentional) entertainment but information, although that's not to say it
has to be stuffy

Russell may say

"(Most of the more visible posters have maintenance in some form or
other except Jinx. He's just rude to everyone all the time so nobody
minds :-) [[That's a joke, should anyone wonder]]"

but I know he's joking. Plus he knows I know where he lives and that
he has to sleep sooner or later......

And who doesn't love Don "I'm a nice guy" Rickles ? I'm sure you
do, ya hockey puck


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2004\09\19@092541 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:12:53PM -0400, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 08:34:49PM -0400, StrshttrEraseMEspam.....aol.com wrote:
> >
> >  My knowledge of pic microcontrollers consists of what I have been able to
> >learn from "Easy Microcontrol'n" and "Programming and Customizing Picmicro
> >Microcontrollers".  I had come to the Piclist thinking I could ask questions
> >to fill in the gaps.
>
> That's pretty good thinking.
>
> >  I quickly found that most active members have forgotten
> >more than I hope to learn and I will not ask any questions period because of
> >personalities you are discussing here.
>
> That's not good. While it's true that there are members that have a vast
> pool of knowledge, it should be inaccessible to those just getting started.
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^

BIG GOOF! OOPS! I meant accessible. Sorry.

BAJ

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2004\09\19@113157 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
The Jerry Springer of Embedded Engineering? <GRIN> If only we could change
the channel... Just like I do, reflexively, for Springer.

Hey, what if we had a special "Olin" tag and people who are abrasive are
only allowed to post with that tag, then newbie's are automatically NOT
subscribed to that and have to read an explanation (and sign a disclaimer?)
before they do?

I'm not sure we can set that up, and I doubt Olin and ilk would do it, but
it is an interesting idea...

[OLIN] for rude and belittling answers to newbie questions and unkind
comments of every sort. Also flame wars, hate mail and all the other things
you get on other lists and don't (unless you ask for it) get on this list.

Hummm... Herb, Dan, Josh? We would specifically NOT monitor or archive it.
If, and I say IF, there was no spill over from one to the other, it might be
the best of both worlds.

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> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\19@123619 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>Hummm... Herb, Dan, Josh? We would specifically NOT monitor or archive it.
>If, and I say IF, there was no spill over from one to the other, it might be
>the best of both worlds.

Sort of the "PG" section of the Piclist..
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Not a bad idea, if it can be implemented!

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2004\09\19@172915 by Herbert Graf

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On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 11:31, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> Hummm... Herb, Dan, Josh? We would specifically NOT monitor or archive it.
> If, and I say IF, there was no spill over from one to the other, it might be
> the best of both worlds.

Hehe, it's an interesting idea, however I'd be personally against it for
three reasons:

1. it would be VERY likely that there would be spillover, some people
sometimes just don't respect others

2. it would legitimize that sort of behaviour in the minds of some
people

3. I personally don't believe that if a person can't be civil they
shouldn't be here at all

Just my opinion. TTYL

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2004\09\19@181301 by Dwayne Reid

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At 09:31 AM 9/19/2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>Hey, what if we had a special "Olin" tag and people who are abrasive are
>only allowed to post with that tag, then newbie's are automatically NOT
>subscribed to that and have to read an explanation (and sign a disclaimer?)
>before they do?
>
>I'm not sure we can set that up, and I doubt Olin and ilk would do it, but
>it is an interesting idea...

I *LOVE* this idea!  Can we set up a filter that automatically adds [OLIN]
to any posts he originates?

>[OLIN] for rude and belittling answers to newbie questions and unkind
>comments of every sort. Also flame wars, hate mail and all the other things
>you get on other lists and don't (unless you ask for it) get on this list.

Nope - that's not what the [OLIN] flag is for.  Think of it as an "Adults
only" flag.

Most of Olin's posts are positively informative.  Even some of his red hot
and flaming posts contain useful information.  But if we implement the
[OLIN] flag, those with fragile egos don't get to see his posts - not any
of the potential flames but also not any of the useful information he may
provide.

I've not met Olin in person (yet) but have spoken with him by phone.  He
comes across as a pleasant person - nothing at all like his email persona.

Quite frankly, he reminds me of most of the other Vermonters that I've met
- very self-confident, very resourceful, intolerant of incompetence and
laziness.  And not at all afraid to express his opinions.

>Also flame wars, hate mail and all the other things
>you get on other lists and don't (unless you ask for it) get on this list.

I think that flame wars and hate mail are still valid reasons for
banishment.  I certainly hope they are not allowed even on the [OLIN] channel.

Check the archives.  I don't think that any of Olin's posts fit that
category.  Some of the responses to Olin's messages might, though.

dwayne

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2004\09\19@181411 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>3. I personally don't believe that if a person can't be civil they
>shouldn't be here at all

I hear ya.

I would like to believe that everyone can be helped, and that we all need different sorts of help, in different ways.  Olin can be very helpful, but as someone else said, he does not tolerate fools (or foolishness) lightly. We're all guilty of it from time to time, I call it HomerCode(tm) when I find a particularly stupid bit of code I've written.  We should all make those sorts of errors less frequently, and Olin is certainly the guy to encourage you not to make those sorts of errors.

I had a drafting teacher like that once, any mistake on a drawing, and you had to start over. Erasers not allowed. He wasn't exactly rude about it, but he was pretty loud about it..  "NOPE, RE-DO" was the standard shout.  He did very effectively discourage errors, and encourage you to think and plan ahead.

54 weeks in a year was definitely in the HomerCode(tm) domain. :)

BTW: I've started carrying a little miniature notebook with me, whenever I'm coding.
When I make a HomerCode(tm) mistake, I write it in the book.  
It's amazingly effective at keeping me from making those mistakes!
I've only used the first few pages, and it's sort of a "badge of Honor" thing, to not let very many get used.   A good AVR example would be something like SBR TEMP,6  when you meant to set bit 6.

This might be a good thing for all programmers, in any domain.

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2004\09\20@141300 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Rich wrote:

> Is this list getting a little too politically correct?

Signs of the times we live ... hovewer as you know you can tell 'em
whatever you want 'em to know if you're politically correct ... ;-)

Peter
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2004\09\20@141319 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Please discuss it here rather than on the [EE] topic?

I usually keep out of these discussions, but now I'll chip in: If you have
a rule against personal rudeness and cussing, *do* enforce it each and
every time. There is no point in having a rule otherwise.

Peter
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2004\09\21@020105 by Vincent Vega

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William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspam_OUTspamKILLspammac.com> wrote:
On Sep 18, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Byron A Jeff wrote:
>That applies to
>being willing to be insulted, as well as not insulting other people.

>BillW

Are you serious, or it was a lapse of reason?!
VV




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2004\09\21@031533 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 20, 2004, at 11:01 PM, Vincent Vega wrote:

>> That applies to
>> being willing to be insulted, as well as not insulting other people.
>
> Are you serious, or it was a lapse of reason?!
>
I'm serious, although it's a sort of ambiguous situation.  Your ego
should
be big enough to put forth your ideas because you think they're GOOD
ideas,
and not fragile enough to be bothered particularly if someone calls your
idea stupid.  I don't know if you call that a big ego, or a little ego.
Perhaps it's more of being able to distinguish between people
criticizing
your ideas, and people criticizing you.

BillW

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2004\09\21@044454 by Russell McMahon

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>>> That applies to
>>> being willing to be insulted, as well as not insulting other people.

>> Are you serious, or it was a lapse of reason?!

> I'm serious, although it's a sort of ambiguous situation.  Your ego should
> be big enough to put forth your ideas because you think they're GOOD
> ideas, and not fragile enough to be bothered particularly if someone calls
> your
> idea stupid.

What I would genuinely like to know is, how can the assertion above be
considered a lapse of reason. It SOUNDS like the ideal to me. What am I
missing? *


       RM

*
[[At the risk of some people considering this "preachy" - it's more or less
how 'the boss' (no, not Bruce Springstein!) says it's meant to be done]]

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2004\09\21@065650 by Gerhard Fiedler

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> I usually keep out of these discussions, but now I'll chip in: If you have
> a rule against personal rudeness and cussing, *do* enforce it each and
> every time. There is no point in having a rule otherwise.

I agree completely, but it seems there is a majority of people who like to
have rules (probably to feel somewhat "safe"), but also like to be able --
at their discretion -- to transgress without punishment (probably to feel
somewhat "in control")... Look at speed limits :)

Gerhard
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2004\09\22@005903 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

>> I usually keep out of these discussions, but now I'll chip in: If you have
>> a rule against personal rudeness and cussing, *do* enforce it each and
>> every time. There is no point in having a rule otherwise.
>
> I agree completely, but it seems there is a majority of people who like to
> have rules (probably to feel somewhat "safe"), but also like to be able --
> at their discretion -- to transgress without punishment (probably to feel
> somewhat "in control")... Look at speed limits :)

A rule is put there to serve a purpose. If someone decides to break it he
better had good reasons and provide timely excuses or face the
consequences of breaking the rule.

To go back to speed limits, I assume you're in Germany, where there are
*no* speed limits on the Autobahn. On the other hand, if you like to break
the speed limit in a residential area, good luck. German road humps are
engineered at least as well as the Autobahns imho ...

Peter
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2004\09\22@021730 by Vincent Vega

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Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechTakeThisOuTspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

You are a nice person Russell, no doubts about it. I just think not everybody
is up to your level of civilization. So, regargless of what the Boss said 2k
ago I'm still kind of  "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth"  person.
But I admire yours and William's standpoint.
Best regards
VV


               
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2004\09\22@071108 by Gerhard Fiedler

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>>> I usually keep out of these discussions, but now I'll chip in: If you have
>>> a rule against personal rudeness and cussing, *do* enforce it each and
>>> every time. There is no point in having a rule otherwise.
>>
>> I agree completely, but it seems there is a majority of people who like to
>> have rules (probably to feel somewhat "safe"), but also like to be able --
>> at their discretion -- to transgress without punishment (probably to feel
>> somewhat "in control")... Look at speed limits :)
>
> A rule is put there to serve a purpose. If someone decides to break it he
> better had good reasons and provide timely excuses or face the
> consequences of breaking the rule.

As I said, I personally agree completely with you. But I couldn't help
notice that it seems that this is not a "majority thing". Most of the
people I know have a different attitude towards rules. One of the more
common examples are speed limits. Most people think it's appropriate to go
(at least) just a bit above the "limit", whereas I think if they want to go
just a bit above it, they should lobby to raise the limit -- so that it's
really a /limit/, and then go at a speed below it. But my (and assumedly
your) position towards rules doesn't seem to be the prevalent.

> To go back to speed limits, I assume you're in Germany,

I am German, but I'm not in Germany -- anymore. Currently I'm living in
Brazil.

> where there are  *no* speed limits on the Autobahn.

Yes and no. There is no general speed limit in terms of a fixed speed, but
the parts without posted speed limits are getting fewer and fewer (so they
tell me), and there *is* in fact a general speed limit: that's the maximum
speed that allows you to drive safely. (That's actually a law, something
like the "constitution of traffic laws", unluckily not too often enforced.)

And the absence of a general speed limit on the Autobahns doesn't mean that
the attitude towards speed limits is different in Germany. Where there is
one, most people like to go, just as about everywhere else I've been, (at
least) just above the speed "limit"... :)

Gerhard
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2004\09\22@094731 by alan smith

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Look what happens when I don't get the chance to read
the piclist for a while.....

About half of us are engineers working on real
projects, the other half are hobbyists (thats a
guess).  I don't have time to read the majority of
posts, let alone respond.  When someone does take the
time to respond, be it abusive or what, its taking
time from doing real work.  Now of course, some may do
it from sheer enjoyment or use it as a break from work
to think about someone elses problems for a few
minutes.  Sometimes the answers are short and terse
but what do you expect? This list has alot of traffic
on it, and honestly I sort by topic and delete the
majority.  I did read this thread because I do believe
that Olin's heart is in the right place but is brutily
honest in his replies.  I've worked with those before,
and if you cower down then it just stays as
bad....else you earn thier respect.  Olin rarely asked
questions or opinions, moreso gave answers.  Bummer he
is gone...I prefer honest over glossed.

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2004\09\22@155618 by James Newtons Massmind

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Every time I see it, I do.... Unless it is me doing the cussing. (just
kidding)

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> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\22@220248 by M. Adam Davis

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How many other non-moderated lists are you on with more than a few
hundred members that are as well behaved as the Piclist?

I used to read several newsgroups.  I used to subscribe to *many*
lists.  Then, for several years, I was only on the piclist and a few
other minor lists.  Recently I've started a new hobby and subscribed to
several lists in that field.

My recent (and past) experience seems to suggest that, in general,
non-moderated and untamed lists/newsgroups have at least 2-3 knock down
drag out flame wars per year which typically end with ... well, let's
simply say that thankfully they do end most of the time - sometimes they
hide for awhile only to pop up a few days/weeks/months/years later.  
They tend to divide some of the list into factions, and the list
essentially 'dies' or becomes relatively useless for the period of the
conflict. Other conversations go on between some very dedicated members
but the problem is that some of the 'bad' contributers take over some of
the 'good' threads in order to continue their crusade.  This is
counterproductive to the list as a whole.

The Piclist has some wonderful discussions.  In particular it has (and
accepts) some great off topic discussions that on other lists with other
participants would devolve quickly and surely into ranting and raving.

The key difference between this list and others is that the Piclist has
some clear ground rules and /they are enforced/.

Olin has a flagrant disregard for these rules, as have other members in
the past.  If, usually after several private and on list warnings,
someone does not come to grips with the rules (whether they are able to
or not) then they do not belong on the list.  This may be a single huge
outburst (such as from Engineering Info) which is so inappropiate that a
warning is not given, or it may be a constant undercurrent of
inappropiate posting (such as from Olin) which gets many warnings until
the admins decide that warnings are not working.

It is not appropiate to change the tone of the list to include just one
more person who is unable or unwilling to be nice simply because some
perceive the errant member to have 'great value' in other areas.  This
slippery slope will cause much more long term damage to a fine list than
the removal of a single member.

No, the list is not 'getting' a little too politically correct - in fact
this dismisal confirms that it is not changing in this regard.  If it's
'too' PC, then it was well before Olin and hopefully will be well after.

-Adam

Rich wrote:

>Is this list getting a little too politically correct?
>
>  
>
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