Post by thread:[OT] Would anyone be interested in a PIC List foru

>The biggest killer for me is search. Find a forum - ANY forum - >and do a search. It takes forever. The search feature on a properly hosted forum can be about as fast as Gmail's, and while Gmail's search might be "smarter," a forum search (using software like vBulletin) can be much more* effective* IMHO. >Also I end up with a full archive - if the forum or mail server go >down I still have access to the archive, and I find that with fast >search most problems I have with a PIC can be dealt with very quickly >simply by searching the archive. A forum is basically just an archive with an interface :-) >Further, there are piclist reflector forums, IIRC. If you don't like >them, build your own - the software is out there. Catching emails and posting them on a forum is* not* the same as a regular forum. As far as hosting the forum, you're probably right in that it would take at least a shared VPS. But, like someone in this discussion said, not everyone will join at once. It would take at least a few months to grow, seems like. And it everyone finds the forum to be agreeable then it can be supported by a strip of ads on the portal page, or something like that. These days, forums are very flexible when it comes to email notifications. And if the forum software doesn't by default provide a "nice notification every 10 or 20 (configurable) minutes," then I'm sure a plug-in could be easily written, purchased, or available for free online. >There is nothing wrong with the list as-is. Everything you've asked >for can be built around your own email client. There would be >tremendous friction in such a shift. Maybe there's nothing technically "wrong" with an email list, but a forum could be a huge improvement: 1) How about the ridiculous way I have to quote you? It would be so much easier, not to mention more readable, to just click "quote" next to your post and encapsulate your paragraphs in quote tags. 2) Wouldn't it be nice for users to have the ability to upload things like: - Tutorials - Schematics - PCB designs - Photos - Etc.. 3) Posts don't get bounced! I am trying out Gmail now (and the stacked emails are much nicer then in Outlook), so I don't know how many emails will get bounced, or marked as spam, but I've had tons of emails bounced using my web host's (Godaddy) email service. 4) There are tons more advantages, I could go on all night. So far, the only actual downside I see in having a forum is the bandwidth (thus cost) that it would take. The cost issue, however, could probably be easily be overcome by even just one small strip of ads.. Regards, Nathan

Hi Vitaliy, First of all, I'd like to clarify; This wouldn't be "my" forum. I don't have the experience, time, or money to invest in starting a large forum at the moment. The reason I started this topic was 1) to try and understand why everyone is still using the list, and not a forum, and 2) to see if people desired to use a forum, but weren't because a dedicated piclist forum just hasn't been created yet. >1. Why would people join your forum, and not the official Microchip forum? Well, for one, the official microchip forum is just that, "the official Microchip forum." It's not a piclist forum, I don't think they have forum areas for discussing non-Microchip related issues. In addition to the Microchip forum only being for Microchip products, as mentioned by someone else in this topic, their forum software really stinks. Different forum software would need to be used to get all the advantages we've been discussing. >2. Why are you trying to convince everyone? I'm not trying to convince *everyone*, and I hope no one is offended or anything by this discussion. All I'm doing is proclaiming the advantages a forum would have over an email list, and to gain understanding as far as why anyone would *not *want to use a forum. Maybe I'm wrong? But so far no one has convinced me that an email list is better then a well designed and implemented forum.

Nathan House wrote: > But so far no one has convinced me that an email list is better then a > well designed and implemented forum. This doesn't seem possible. This is mostly a matter of taste and preference, and so what's "better" is largely subjective. How could I "convince" you of my preference? If a majority has the same preference as you, a piclist forum should be a quick success. If not, then maybe not :) Only somebody who likes forums trying it out would answer this, I guess. Cost doesn't seem to be an issue, as Thomas has volunteered to host it. Gerhard

Nathan House wrote: >>1. Why would people join your forum, and not the official Microchip forum? > > Well, for one, the official microchip forum is just that, "the official > Microchip forum." It's not a piclist forum, I don't think they have forum > areas for discussing non-Microchip related issues. In addition to the > Microchip forum only being for Microchip products, as mentioned by someone > else in this topic, their forum software really stinks. Different forum > software would need to be used to get all the advantages we've been > discussing. Don't underestimate the fact that (A) their forum gets lots of traffic from the Microchip website, and (B) it's been around for a while. Competing head-to-head sounds like a losing proposition. >>2. Why are you trying to convince everyone? > > I'm not trying to convince *everyone*, and I hope no one is offended or > anything by this discussion. All I'm doing is proclaiming the advantages a > forum would have over an email list, and to gain understanding as far as > why > anyone would *not *want to use a forum. Maybe I'm wrong? But so far no one > has convinced me that an email list is better then a well designed and > implemented forum. I'm not offended, and I don't see why anyone would be. I had this conversation (offline) with another guy, he also was exalting the merits of a web forum (as opposed to the mailing list). When I asked him why so many people use (and love) PICList, he said that was because they're a bunch of old farts that resist new technology. :) There may be some thruth in my friend's statement, but I am younger than him, and I prefer the format of the PICList. To me, the biggest advantage of a mailing list is that getting the messages is effortless, the messages are downloaded at the same time as I check my regular email. With a forum, I have to actively do something to get these messages: start the browser, navigate to the forum page, log in... Also, I'm familiar with both vBulletin and SMF, and IMHO their searches are not as good as the one in Outlook Express. I help administrate two forums, and am a member of a couple more. The only way I was able to make it work for me, was with email notification -- I subscribe to forum boards (daily digests), and individual topics (instant notification). I know my arguments won't convince you, but maybe at least you will better understand where I'm coming from? Vitaliy

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Vitaliy <spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org> wrote: > downloaded at the same time as I check my regular email. With a forum, I > have to actively do something to get these messages: start the browser, > navigate to the forum page, log in... Dear piclist :-). Here's a software challenge that is relevant to this discussion. I am on a number of forums, tracked here: http://heybryan.org/forums.html What would be the most optimal way to write a tool for me to interface with these forums so that I don't have to check back via a web interface every single time I want to reply to a thread that starts to get interesting over RSS? And what about those forums that only show a portion of each thread or each post in a thread, such as a limited character buffer, where the limit shows up when reading the RSS? There are a number of websites out there that let you construct RSS feeds by selecting DIV elements and TABLE elements on any web page, but I've forgotten their names, and don't really trust them to operate effectively for the same reason that web scraping is impractical (changes to the underlying webpage being largely unpredictable). Never the less, there still has to be some sort of clever solution to managing this many forum subscriptions, especially when many of the forums are using the same software package under the hood. Any thoughts? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507

I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. RSS is fine for simple notification, but a robust forum API that would allow custom clients (either web or applications) to access, read, and post messages to forums would probably be a big hit, and you'd only have to develop the API, and then contribute an implementation to maybe 5 major forum software groups for it to take off. That would eliminate a few valid, currently intractable, reasons to stay with email. -Adam On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Bishop <.....kanzureKILLspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> Dear piclist :-). > > Here's a software challenge that is relevant to this discussion. I am > on a number of forums, tracked here: > > http://heybryan.org/forums.html > > What would be the most optimal way to write a tool for me to interface > with these forums so that I don't have to check back via a web > interface every single time I want to reply to a thread that starts to > get interesting over RSS? And what about those forums that only show a > portion of each thread or each post in a thread, such as a limited > character buffer, where the limit shows up when reading the RSS? There > are a number of websites out there that let you construct RSS feeds by > selecting DIV elements and TABLE elements on any web page, but I've > forgotten their names, and don't really trust them to operate > effectively for the same reason that web scraping is impractical > (changes to the underlying webpage being largely unpredictable). Never > the less, there still has to be some sort of clever solution to > managing this many forum subscriptions, especially when many of the > forums are using the same software package under the hood. > > Any thoughts? > > - Bryan > http://heybryan.org/ > 1 512 203 0507 > -

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:39:34 -0500, "M. Adam Davis" <stienmanKILLspamgmail.com> said: > I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general > need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, > since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. > > RSS is fine for simple notification, but a robust forum API that would > allow custom clients (either web or applications) to access, read, and > post messages to forums would probably be a big hit, and you'd only > have to develop the API, and then contribute an implementation to > maybe 5 major forum software groups for it to take off. > > That would eliminate a few valid, currently intractable, reasons to > stay with email. Maybe something like an IMAP email and forum hybrid? That might work. When it broke it would be a mess. Cheers, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:39 AM, M. Adam Davis <.....stienmanKILLspam.....gmail.com> wrote: > I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general > need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, > since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. > > RSS is fine for simple notification, but a robust forum API that would > allow custom clients (either web or applications) to access, read, and > post messages to forums would probably be a big hit, and you'd only > have to develop the API, and then contribute an implementation to > maybe 5 major forum software groups for it to take off. > > That would eliminate a few valid, currently intractable, reasons to > stay with email. So to do that-- (1) Some API. Easy enough- WSDL, XML, standards can be rapidly written, not a big deal, since all forums have the same structure these days. (2) Some client interface to showcase the features of this. This is the big deal at the moment. What possible client could be rapidly retrofitted to work with this forum API? An RSS feed aggregator, like kAggregator (KDE's aggregator)? A mail client? Which one? kmail? Thunderbird? A pop3-to-forum gateway server daemon thingy? (3) Modules to submit to phpbb, invisionboard, drupal, vbulletin, infopop, whatever the devil the most popular forums are these days. Not a huge code undertaking. #2 is more important at this point, but it's sort of a chicken-and-egg problem. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507

Theres mail2forum for phpbb that seems to work ok(ish) its a little fragile and finiky to setup but it seemed to work on a forum I setup once (I used the addon because i prefer the mailing list interface but nobody else knew how to use a real email client) M. Adam Davis wrote: {Quote hidden}> I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general > need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, > since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. > > RSS is fine for simple notification, but a robust forum API that would > allow custom clients (either web or applications) to access, read, and > post messages to forums would probably be a big hit, and you'd only > have to develop the API, and then contribute an implementation to > maybe 5 major forum software groups for it to take off. > > That would eliminate a few valid, currently intractable, reasons to > stay with email. > > -Adam > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Bishop <EraseMEkanzurespam_OUTTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear piclist :-). >> >> Here's a software challenge that is relevant to this discussion. I am >> on a number of forums, tracked here: >> >> http://heybryan.org/forums.html >> >> What would be the most optimal way to write a tool for me to interface >> with these forums so that I don't have to check back via a web >> interface every single time I want to reply to a thread that starts to >> get interesting over RSS? And what about those forums that only show a >> portion of each thread or each post in a thread, such as a limited >> character buffer, where the limit shows up when reading the RSS? There >> are a number of websites out there that let you construct RSS feeds by >> selecting DIV elements and TABLE elements on any web page, but I've >> forgotten their names, and don't really trust them to operate >> effectively for the same reason that web scraping is impractical >> (changes to the underlying webpage being largely unpredictable). Never >> the less, there still has to be some sort of clever solution to >> managing this many forum subscriptions, especially when many of the >> forums are using the same software package under the hood. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> - Bryan >> http://heybryan.org/ >> 1 512 203 0507 >> --

M. Adam Davis wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Bishop <kanzurespam_OUTgmail.com> wrote: > > What would be the most optimal way to write a tool for me to interface > > with these forums so that I don't have to check back via a web > > interface every single time I want to reply to a thread that starts to > > get interesting over RSS? > > I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general > need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, > since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. I have one word for you folks: NNTP Why do we have to keep reinventing the same damn functionality we've already had for over 30 years, just because something new and cute comes along? There's no reason an HTTP (web) forum server couldn't also be an NNTP server, and then most email clients will happily manage any number of them for you. -- Dave Tweed

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Dave Tweed <@spam@picKILLspamdtweed.com> wrote: > M. Adam Davis wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Bishop <KILLspamkanzureKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: >> > What would be the most optimal way to write a tool for me to interface >> > with these forums so that I don't have to check back via a web >> > interface every single time I want to reply to a thread that starts to >> > get interesting over RSS? >> >> I don't know the answer to your question, but it points to a general >> need for an API to make it easy to pull from and answer to forums, >> since so many people are moving to them and away from mailing lists. > > I have one word for you folks: NNTP > > Why do we have to keep reinventing the same damn functionality we've > already had for over 30 years, just because something new and cute comes > along? There's no reason an HTTP (web) forum server couldn't also be an > NNTP server, and then most email clients will happily manage any number > of them for you. Okay then. How about an NNTP server plugin? Does anyone have a favorite modular open source NNTP server, like leafnode or something? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507

On Feb 23, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Dave Tweed wrote: > I have one word for you folks: NNTP > > Why do we have to keep reinventing the same damn functionality we've > already had for over 30 years, just because something new and cute > comes along? Cause the old protocols were designed by innocent and trusting engineers working in a sheltered environment, and they all BROKE when the real world got connected... (well, that's one reason, anyway.) Really; I tried reading some of the newsgroups I used to haunt in the old days (say, sci.chem) and found them nearly completely FULL of spam (not even commercial spam; just sort of malicious, random, "denial of service", and hate spam) I assume part of this is that "we" don't put much effort into filtering it, but it seems that most of the public or ISP-based netnews servers are gone for lack of maintainability; comcast doesn't offer news service anymore, for instance.... (OTOH, private NNTP based sites, like the EAGLE forums, seem to be working OK.) BillW

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Dave Tweed <RemoveMEpicTakeThisOuTdtweed.com> wrote: > I have one word for you folks: NNTP > > Why do we have to keep reinventing the same damn functionality we've > already had for over 30 years, just because something new and cute comes > along? There's no reason an HTTP (web) forum server couldn't also be an > NNTP server, and then most email clients will happily manage any number > of them for you. NNTP is a good place to start, but there are a bunch of things forums do that NNTP wouldn't work well for. Some forums have the ability to host files and images for the users, and while NNTP was adapted for that purpose (binary messages) it was never a good solution. Forums allow some amount of markup, and current NNTP clients don't understand that. Avatars, signatures, etc are valued by many forum users and must be considered. Gravatar would be a solution for avatars (ie, a separate avatar service based on email ID). Signatures are tricky - in a forum a signature isn't part of the message, it's part of the user. If I view a message today, the user might change the signature, and then viewing the same message tomorrow would have the new signature. A signature service similar to gravatar might be useful here. There are doubtless many other areas where current forum implementation would suffer after the transition to NNTP. But the concept behind NNTP is, I believe, solid and a moderate adaptation (expecially if it was backwards compatible) would significantly speed uptake, and demonstration clients could be built from modified newsreaders. -Adam

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Dave Tweed <spamBeGonepicspamBeGonedtweed.com> wrote: > > I have one word for you folks: NNTP > > > > Why do we have to keep reinventing the same damn functionality we've > > already had for over 30 years, just because something new and cute > > comes along? There's no reason an HTTP (web) forum server couldn't > > also be an NNTP server, and then most email clients will happily > > manage any number of them for you. Bryan Bishop wrote: > Okay then. How about an NNTP server plugin? Does anyone have a > favorite modular open source NNTP server, like leafnode or something? NNTP is actually pretty simple. For a while, my ISP was running some NNTP servers for Usenet that were painfully slow to use directly, so I wrote myself a little proxy system consisting of three Perl modules. (Pretty much the same concept as what leafnode does.) The first module operates as an NNTP client (using Net::NNTP and News::Newsrc) and collects messages from the ISP's server at whatever rate it can get and drops them into a local spool directory. The second module (based on Net::Server::Fork) runs as a local news server, which I have accessed from both Netscape and Thunderbird at various times to read (and post) articles. The third module (which I call News::Group) provides an object-oriented interface to the underlying spool directory for the server module. The client module is about 240 lines of Perl, the server module is about 500 lines, and the interface module is about 300 lines. Of these, you'd only need the server and interface modules, and only the latter would have to be customized to interface to a particular web forum server. I've never released this code to anyone else, and I'd have to do some work on the documentation first anyway. William "Chops" Westfield wrote: > (OTOH, private NNTP based sites, like the EAGLE forums, seem to be > working OK.) Exactly. That's what I'm referring to. Circuit Cellar also used to run an NNTP server when they first shut down their dial-in BBS, but later they switched to a pure web-based forum server, and I dropped out. M. Adam Davis wrote: > NNTP is a good place to start, but there are a bunch of things forums > do that NNTP wouldn't work well for. Well, sure, but the OP was just looking for functionality one step above the RSS feed that would allow him to inject messages into an "interesting" thread. You don't need the fancy web interface for that. > There are doubtless many other areas where current forum > implementation would suffer after the transition to NNTP. I never suggested making a transition to NNTP. I'm saying run the two servers in parallel on the same message database. If you want to access a feature that NNTP doesn't support, you jump over to the web interface. -- Dave Tweed