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'[OT] What language is used for the 2nd part of thi'
2011\03\02@224836 by Vitaliy

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Russell,

It's all in Russian. And for me, Google Translate's Russian->English function works all the way through.

Vitaliy


 {Original Message removed}

2011\03\02@231106 by Vitaliy

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From: "John Gardner" <spam_OUTgoflo3TakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 20:26
Subject: Re: [OT]:: What language is used for the 2nd part of this page? Andwhy?


> http://www.studyrussian.com/MGU/general_about_Russian_language.html
>
> Perhaps, like German, the Russian language has changed significantly in
> the last few centuries...

AFAIK that's not true. Orphography has, for sure (a few letters got eliminated), but the language itself, not so much. It is amazing to me that I can read the Tale of Bygone Years in the original Slavonic (12th century proto-Russian), and understand much of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

Compare this to Old English from about the same time, which looks like total gibberish to the modern English reader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html

Russian from the 17th century onwards is basically modern Russian with some archaic words.

Vitaliy

2011\03\02@233204 by John Gardner

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That the written language of  8 centuries ago is intelligible to a modern
Russian-speaker is amazing - A rough equivalent, the Middle English of
"The Canterbury Tales", is an exercise in translation, not reading, for the
uninitiated.

Any thoughts about how this came about?

Jac

2011\03\03@040640 by RussellMc

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>> www.studyrussian.com/MGU/general_about_Russian_language.html
>>
>> Perhaps, like German, the Russian language has changed significantly in
>> the last few centuries...
>
> AFAIK that's not true. Orphography has, for sure (a few letters got
> eliminated), but the language itself, not so much. It is amazing to me that
> I can read the Tale of Bygone Years in the original Slavonic (12th century
> proto-Russian), and understand much of it:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
>
> Compare this to Old English from about the same time, which looks like total
> gibberish to the modern English reader:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf
> http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html

That's "a bit" beyond me.
I can do Chaucerian English almost maybe, if I squint hard, and pucker
my brain, but somehow the extra 700 years or so (nobody knows for
sure) has made a vast difference.

The difference in rate of change between English and Russian is
probably vastly influenced by the "melting pot" nature of England by
dint of its geographical location. Y'All come Y'here.

Chaucer - Shipman;s talde  - interlineated wity "modern" English

  http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/teachslf/shippar1.htm

Note - Chaucer oft bee a bawdy read.

Chaucer, as did The Bard, made up quite a lot of new words:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaucer%E2%80%99s_special_manuscript_words

Chaucer is considered to have introduced or be ghe first known user of
the following words into the English language

absent, accident, add, agree, bagpipe, border, box, cinnamon, desk,
digestion, dishonest, examination, finally, flute, funeral, galaxy,
horizon, infect, ingot, latitude, laxative, miscarry, nod, obscure,
observe, outrageous, perpendicular, Persian, princess, resolve,
rumour, scissors, session, snort, superstitious, theatre, trench,
universe, utility, vacation, Valentine, veal, village, vulgar, wallet,
and wildness.

This may simply mean in many cases that the relative avaialbiity of
his manuscripts make him a good source.

Big Will largely introduced more interesting terms.



              Russell

>
> Russian from the 17th century onwards is basically modern Russian with some
> archaic words.
>
> Vitaliy
>
>

2011\03\03@062827 by Michael Watterson

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On 03/03/2011 04:32, John Gardner wrote:
> That the written language of  8 centuries ago is intelligible to a modern
> Russian-speaker is amazing - A rough equivalent, the Middle English of
> "The Canterbury Tales", is an exercise in translation, not reading, for the
> uninitiated.
>
> Any thoughts about how this came about?
Normans (1066) and Dutch (1689).

Many other reasons too.
Henry II (1133) very French influences. The much of the last of Anglo Saxon Lords swept away
Eleanor of Aquitaine (1122 - 1204) Regent of England, Duchess of Aquitaine. Most powerful woman in Europe. Likely French 1st language
Richard I (8 September 1157 – 6 April 1199) Only spoke French. Though he didn't spend much time in England.
Henry III (1 October 1207 – 16 November 1272). Civil War. French speakers Dominate. Henry married Eleanor of Provence and he promoted many of his French relatives to higher positions of power and wealth.

By time of Shakespeare we have approximately Modern English.
Pre Norman English is unreadable to anyone other than an Expert.
I can hardly read Chaucer ( 1343 – 1400) at all, but it's recognisable. www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/teachslf/snt-par.htm
I mostly can follow Shakespeare (1564 - 1616). But words I know may not have the same meaning.

Modern Hebrew speakers can read most of the old Testament, but not parts of Daniel as it switches to Aramaic.
Silver jewellery over 3,500 years old has been found with inscriptions that match old Testement, but most Hebrew speakers can't read it as the form of the alphabet's letters completely different to modern cursive or printed hebrew.

Of course in Czarist times the Russian Court spoke French.

Uncooked
Ox, Cow, Bull, Cattle
Sheep
deer

Cooked
Beef, Mutton, Venison

2011\03\03@063133 by Michael Watterson

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On 03/03/2011 09:06, RussellMc wrote:
> That's "a bit" beyond me.
> I can do Chaucerian English almost maybe, if I squint hard, and pucker
> my brain, but somehow the extra 700 years or so (nobody knows for
> sure) has made a vast difference.

Chaucer couldn't spell and the English Dictionary was not yet invented. A part of it

2011\03\03@064032 by Michael Watterson

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On 03/03/2011 11:28, Michael Watterson wrote:
> Uncooked
> Ox, Cow, Bull, Cattle
> Sheep
> deer
>
> Cooked
> Beef, Mutton, Venison
Anglo Saxons reared it

Normans ate it

2011\03\03@074510 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
>> Perhaps, like German, the Russian language has changed significantly
>> in the last few centuries...
>
> AFAIK that's not true. Orphography has, for sure (a few letters got
> eliminated), but the language itself, not so much. It is amazing to
> me that I can read the Tale of Bygone Years in the original Slavonic
> (12th century proto-Russian), and understand much of it:

I have read some old german texts, and what pops out is not so much that the
language has changed but the way the letters are drawn.  All the old stuff
is pretty much in the old style gothic letters, where "s" and "f" look
almost identical, for example.  Sometimes you see umlauts as a little "e"
over the letter instead of the two dots now widely used.  Even today, it's
acceptable to write a umlaut vowel as the regular vowel with a "e" after it
when you don't have a german keyboard.  That's also how the umlaut letters
are sorted in a dictionary.

In contrast, the letters haven't changed as much from old english, but it
feels like the words and their usage seem to have changed more than german.
This probably has something to do with the englishs' habit of getting
overrun by various invaders.


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