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'[OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Dro'
2009\01\15@175346 by Byron Jeff

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face
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 05:19:27PM -0500, solarwind wrote:
> digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Causes_Girl_To_Drop_Out_of_College
>
> People like this should not be allowed to breed.

Why? The real mistake was Dell not putting Windows on her machine when she
requested it.

The average person isn't a geek. They have no interest in the inner
workings of their computer. It's an appliance to them. Turn it on, use it,
turn it off.

Unfortunately because of the way things played out in the 80s and 90s,
computing appliances are Windows based. It doesn't make Windows better, or
worse, just the de facto standard.

Dell should have honored her request for Windows, even after the fact.

Can you do neurosurgery? Neither can I. Does that mean that we should not
be allowed to breed?

And to folks who are not clued in, it's the same thing.

Every machine in our house except for my wife's laptop runs a Linux
version. My kids wouldn't have a problem using their Ubuntu/Kubuntu laptops
to get stuff done. Does that mean that they are brilliant? No, just
exposed.

BAJ

2009\01\15@181606 by solarwind

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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Byron Jeff <spam_OUTbyronjeffTakeThisOuTspamclayton.edu> wrote:
> Why? The real mistake was Dell not putting Windows on her machine when she
> requested it.

She did not request it initially.

> The average person isn't a geek. They have no interest in the inner
> workings of their computer. It's an appliance to them. Turn it on, use it,
> turn it off.

This isn't a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of ignorance.


> Unfortunately because of the way things played out in the 80s and 90s,
> computing appliances are Windows based. It doesn't make Windows better, or
> worse, just the de facto standard.

> Dell should have honored her request for Windows, even after the fact.

> Can you do neurosurgery? Neither can I. Does that mean that we should not
> be allowed to breed?

Funny you should mention neurosurgery. Anyway, this has nothing to do
with the article or the point the digg commenters are trying to make.

> And to folks who are not clued in, it's the same thing.
>
> Every machine in our house except for my wife's laptop runs a Linux
> version. My kids wouldn't have a problem using their Ubuntu/Kubuntu laptops
> to get stuff done. Does that mean that they are brilliant? No, just
> exposed.

That's right, but again, that's not the point of this, lol.

> BAJ

--
solarwind

2009\01\15@181800 by Jinx

face picon face
> Why? The real mistake was Dell not putting Windows on her machine
> when she requested it

The story says she accidentally ordered Ubuntu. In hindsight she should
have been more assertive with the Dell rep who talked her away from
Windows. The rep's claim that it was compatible with everything she
needed was obviously untrue. Just because somebody works at a
particular place doesn't necessarily mean they know what they're talking
about. They'll throw any old BS at you sometimes, with no regard to what
that does to the company reputation

I'm not familiar with Ubuntu and would have insisted on an alternative OS,
but I'm a grumpy sod who likes to get what he asked for

Hopefully she's learned something

2009\01\15@181855 by solarwind

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Update:

You LOSER! You ADMIN IN DISGUISE! You just HAD to change the title
because you think YOU are right! Fact of the matter is, ignorance =
stupidity.

2009\01\15@181915 by solarwind

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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 6:18 PM, solarwind <.....x.solarwind.xKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Update:
>
> You LOSER! You ADMIN IN DISGUISE! You just HAD to change the title
> because you think YOU are right! Fact of the matter is, ignorance =
> stupidity.

/sarcasm (forgot to add)



--
solarwind

2009\01\15@185950 by solarwind

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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jinx <joecolquittspamKILLspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> Hopefully she's learned something

I doubt it.

--solarwind

2009\01\15@192518 by Jinx

face picon face
> > The average person isn't a geek. They have no interest in the inner
> > workings of their computer. It's an appliance to them. Turn it on,
> > use it, turn it off.
>
> This isn't a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of ignorance.

Doesn't Ignorance = - Knowledge ?

> this has nothing to do with the article or the point the digg commenters
> are trying to make

It's easy to laugh at somebody's misadventures in a field you know a lot
about and they know little

> but again, that's not the point of this, lol.

What zackly is the point ? All she wanted to do was enrol in a course,
not be faced with an unexpected and time-consuming problem, admitedly
of her own accidental doing. The person most at fault here is the Dell rep,
no doubt. That was not acceptable customer service. A good reputation
is extremely difficult to maintain and this episode may have cost Dell much
more than attending to it properly in the first place

2009\01\15@193618 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Hopefully she's learned something
>
> I doubt it

How on earth would you know that ?

2009\01\15@193618 by Jinx

face picon face
> You LOSER! You ADMIN IN DISGUISE! You just HAD to
> change the title because you think YOU are right!

Careful

> Fact of the matter is, ignorance = stupidity

Knowledge/ignorance has nothing to do with cleverness/stupidity

I'm absolutely sure some "stupid" people know things I don't. Some
"clever" people don't know things I do

How many professors can program a PIC ? Only the ones who aren't
idiots presumably

Can I get a tune out of a trombone ? No. Am I stupid ? No, with
respect to trombone playing, just ignorant of how to (properly)

2009\01\15@194344 by solarwind

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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Jinx <.....joecolquittKILLspamspam.....clear.net.nz> wrote:
> Knowledge/ignorance has nothing to do with cleverness/stupidity
>
> I'm absolutely sure some "stupid" people know things I don't. Some
> "clever" people don't know things I do
>
> How many professors can program a PIC ? Only the ones who aren't
> idiots presumably
>
> Can I get a tune out of a trombone ? No. Am I stupid ? No, with
> respect to trombone playing, just ignorant of how to (properly)
>

What? (laugh)

Ok, the girl bought a laptop and failed to read the specs. If you read
any of the digg comments, and looked at Dell's website, you would know
that EVERY one of their Linux computers has big honking Ubuntu font on
the page and is clearly stated in the text when you buy. I think you
even get to chose between the operating system when you make the
purchase. It was the girl's fault.


--
solarwind

2009\01\15@195941 by Byron Jeff

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face
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 06:16:04PM -0500, solarwind wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Byron Jeff <EraseMEbyronjeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTclayton.edu> wrote:
> > Why? The real mistake was Dell not putting Windows on her machine when she
> > requested it.
>
> She did not request it initially.

Doesn't matter. When she did request it, both the first and the second
time, it should have been put on her machine. The Dell salesdroid was wrong
for convincing her to keep it, then Dell's policy not to switch her out was
flawed too.

>
> > The average person isn't a geek. They have no interest in the inner
> > workings of their computer. It's an appliance to them. Turn it on, use it,
> > turn it off.
>
> This isn't a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of ignorance.

The point was that she was ignorant to Ubuntu, requested a switch to
Windows (which was smart) and was dissuaded by someone who should have
actually known better.

Mind you that I'm a 100% Linux guy here. Dell should have acceeded to the
customer's request. Period. End of story.

BAJ

2009\01\15@200042 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
You wrote:

>> Why? The real mistake was Dell not putting Windows on her machine
>> when she requested it
>
> The story says she accidentally ordered Ubuntu. In hindsight she
> should have been more assertive with the Dell rep who talked her away
> from Windows. The rep's claim that it was compatible with everything
> she needed was obviously untrue. Just because somebody works at a
> particular place doesn't necessarily mean they know what they're
> talking about. They'll throw any old BS at you sometimes, with no
> regard to what that does to the company reputation
>
> I'm not familiar with Ubuntu and would have insisted on an
> alternative OS, but I'm a grumpy sod who likes to get what he asked
> for

I don't think the problem is or was Ubuntu. The article may say so, but
it doesn't provide any substance for this. Internet access is possible
with Ubuntu, and a call to her provider's support would have clarified
that. I exchange regularly documents with my accountant; he uses
OpenOffice, I use Word. Works mostly. Besides, the college seems to say
that it accepts whatever common format. So what was the problem, after
all? Not having talked to the people?

Now claiming to have lost two semesters because of a) not having called
Verizon support and b) not having asked the college whether they would
accept OpenOffice documents is... (fill in your favorite expression for
this sort of thing :)

Besides, this college is not a medical college (for future brain
surgeons) or a business school (for future CEOs who only need to know
how to spend the millions they will get shoved in their various body
parts), it is "Madison Area /Technical/ College, or MATC".

What's not clear is whether this is a real story, or whether the one who
shouldn't be allowed to breed before corrective measures have been taken
is the author.

Gerhard

2009\01\15@200149 by Byron Jeff

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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 06:18:34PM -0500, solarwind wrote:
> Update:
>
> You LOSER! You ADMIN IN DISGUISE! You just HAD to change the title
> because you think YOU are right! Fact of the matter is, ignorance =
> stupidity.

Stupidity is knowing better and still doing the incorrect thing.

Ignorance is correctable. Stupidity is forever.

And yes I did change the subject line. It was my response and I can change
it as I see fit.

BAJ

2009\01\15@202744 by Jinx

face picon face
> I don't think the problem is or was Ubuntu

No, it isn't. It's a beat-up of a nothing story by elitist geeky little
snobs who think they know computers better than anyone else (big
deal), that the sun shines out of Linux's a** and anyone, particularly
a girl, who made a mistake is fair game for ridicule

> People like this should not be allowed to breed

solarwind, if that's an attitude you're going to hang on to, good luck
in life. You're going to need it

I mean, that is just so ....... Well, she's lucky the Nazis didn't win or
they'd have those ovaries out licketty-spit. Very keen on that sort of
thing they were

> Now claiming to have lost two semesters because of a) not having
> called Verizon support and b) not having asked the college whether
> they would accept OpenOffice documents is... (fill in your favorite
> expression for this sort of thing :)

You can smell the bias on the story from here. IMHO it was put up
for one reason and one reason only. Without comment from the girl
herself it's not even proper reporting

2009\01\15@203738 by solarwind

picon face
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Jinx <joecolquittspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz> wrote:
> solarwind, if that's an attitude you're going to hang on to, good luck
> in life. You're going to need it
>

Thanks!

--
solarwind

2009\01\15@210217 by Jinx

face picon face
> Stupidity is knowing better and still doing the incorrect thing.
>
> Ignorance is correctable. Stupidity is forever.

BAJ, how would you pigeonhole Jackass ?

"Hit me in the wontons with a billiard ball. Perhaps it won't hurt
this time"

Sorry Steve-O. It always hurts. And you know that

Ignorant ? No

Clever ? Oh yes. $$$$$

Stupid ? By popular definition, yes. But then again he's not even
attempting to learn how to avoid getting hurt. In fact he knows how
to avoid being hurt, so is "stupid" even the appropriate word ?

Being incapable of learning must be one definition of "stupid", not
just making mistakes in unfamiliar territory. Otherwise we'd all be
stupid. And you don't want to be calling me stupid

2009\01\15@210350 by Jinx

face picon face
> If you had taken the time to analyze what I had said carefully,
> you would have noticed that I didn't say that the specific girl
> there should not be allowed to breed. What I said was, "people
> like this", which refers not mainly to the people themselves, but
> to the thought process and attitude they posses

The difference being .... ?

2009\01\16@005358 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> Can you do neurosurgery? Neither can I. Does that mean that we should not
>> be allowed to breed?

> Funny you should mention neurosurgery. Anyway, this has nothing to do
> with the article or the point the digg commenters are trying to make.

Warning!
Walk away NOW with hands where he can see them (preferably protecting your
brain).
A few years or decades from now, perhaps.
At present it would be a risky [tm] business :-).


    Russell

2009\01\16@011329 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:51 AM, apptech <@spam@apptechKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>>> Can you do neurosurgery? Neither can I. Does that mean that we should not
>>> be allowed to breed?
>
>> Funny you should mention neurosurgery. Anyway, this has nothing to do
>> with the article or the point the digg commenters are trying to make.
>
> Warning!
> Walk away NOW with hands where he can see them (preferably protecting your
> brain).
> A few years or decades from now, perhaps.
> At present it would be a risky [tm] business :-).
>
>
>     Russell

Well, I am successfully pursuing a career in life sciences, so, should
any one of you require removal of a brain tumor in 20 - 30 years, just
ask.


--
solarwind

2009\01\16@014702 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Now claiming to have lost two semesters because of a) not having called
> Verizon support and b) not having asked the college whether they would
> accept OpenOffice documents is...

Common behavior for a student (any sex, color, country, age,
intelligence, etc) who tries to evade the consequences.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\01\16@041610 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I don't think the problem is or was Ubuntu. The article may
>say so, but it doesn't provide any substance for this.

All the article has really done is point out that Dell failed in their
customer service ('The customer is always right, and wants Windows') and
that the other two suppliers in the picture (Verizon and MATC) are working
to sort out the problem their customer has.

>Internet access is possible with Ubuntu, and a call to her
>provider's support would have clarified that.

And the article goes on to point out that Verizon are sending an engineer to
help her sort this out.

>I exchange regularly documents with my accountant; he uses
>OpenOffice, I use Word. Works mostly. Besides, the college
>seems to say that it accepts whatever common format. So what
>was the problem, after all? Not having talked to the people?

And the college is going to work with her to get her sorted with Open
Office.

The problem seems to be mostly that she did not know of the compatibility
between program suites.

Certainly ignorance, not stupidity. The only stupid one is the Dell person
she spoke to.

2009\01\16@062910 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
You wrote:

> The only stupid one is the Dell person she spoke to.

Which doesn't really surprise anybody here, right? :) (Not because of
Dell, IMO, but because of the state of affairs in customer support in
general.)

Then there's the writer of the article. There seems to be either a
desire to write something with a certain tendency, or a lack of clear
thinking.

Gerhard

2009\01\16@064437 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> Which doesn't really surprise anybody here, right? :) (Not because of
> Dell, IMO, but because of the state of affairs in customer support in
> general.)

Dell has the cust.support and care etc in India. They do not know things
really, but they have an electronic questionnaire in front of the what to
ask, if answered this or that where to go further on that sheet etc. For
example when I bought my first Dell laptop the gy was keep asking me if I
want to edit pictures on my computer, or if I want to watch films... I have
told him that I am a computer guy and I have already selected my model, just
want to pay, but no, he had to do that from the beginning, and only after he
made his offer I could convience him that I know what I want... What he
failed to do so is to remove Vista from the configuration and put Linux on
it... but that's not the fault of the guy sitting there, it's the fault of
the way Dell is doing this sellings.

Just a side not that after that I got some phone calls from Dell and I must
say the after sales were much better than that.

Tamas




On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Gerhard Fiedler <
KILLspamlistsKILLspamspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\01\16@101432 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
OK, I never post, but I think I will this time.

The girl probably accidentally ordered this "Ubuntu" laptop because it was
cheaper than the windows laptop.  To be honest, though, after trying on a
couple of different laptops, it seems you have to deliberately want Ubuntu
in order to get it on your laptop.  In other words, she really tried hard to
get Ubuntu on her computer.  If she did (in fact) go out of her way to order
an operating system she didn't know anything about, well you be the judge.
(Note, I only spent a few minutes on Dell's website, and each laptop I went
to only had Windows Vista as an option).

The whole thing is excusable for the end user.  She may be hapless with
computers, but then again don't we expect as much?  We cannot all be experts
in everything.  She might have taken the time (like many people do) and ask
someone who knew better what she would need, but again, I would excuse this
mistake.

Where I run into trouble is that the news people actually ran this story.
They obviously did not research anything about it (even a complete novice
can figure out that you can save OO documents in Word Format just nicely).
I am currently in College, and to be frank - most classes don't even require
you send documents in Doc format- they usually want it in RTF format because
(gasp) even versions of Office don't neccessarily play nice together.

Were some people overly rude to the girl? Perhaps.  Did the news agency
treated fairly -- absolutely.  The real problem here is that a professional
journalist should actually take time and (I know this is a hard concept in
the US) research a story before writing absolute BS.  Had they researched
this story for more than ten minutes, they would have no doubt learned that
this is one of those- "nothing to see here" moments.

I personally think Ubuntu is quite user friendly, but I think thats really
besides the point.  This girl (at best) seems impulsive.  Who cancels their
classes because of their computer?  Would it not (perhaps) make sense to
contact the helpdesk at her school and ask for support first?  If I read the
article correctly, it didn't seem that she even went that far.

Bottom line:  lets all not waste too many brain cells on this one.  It
clearly is a "tales from userland" type story.

---
Aleksei


2009/1/16 Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>

{Quote hidden}

2009\01\16@105239 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 16, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> The problem seems to be mostly that she did not know of the  
> compatibility
> between program suites.
>
> Certainly ignorance, not stupidity. The only stupid one is the Dell  
> person
> she spoke to.

Well, there's the whole aspect of "it took two semesters to figure out  
that Verizon internet access WOULD work with linux, and that  
OpenOffice documents WOULD be suitable for classwork."  Those aren't  
exactly big secrets, though I suppose that there is a bit of a  
"bootstrap" issue in that a lot of the "help" channels rely on having  
your basic internet service working first...

Part of what one expects people to learn in secondary schools is real-
world problem solving.   Like dealing with customer service  
departments or help desks to get your basic technology working.  She  
didn't do so well.  Perhaps she missed a basic "computer literacy"  
class at some point (such a thing is required at my kid's high  
school.   I don't know if they've progressed from "this is a floppy  
disk" to "how to buy and install internet service, including dealing  
with big company customer service departments.")

Unfortunately, the greater issue here is along the lines of "how to  
not let what ought to be a trivial problem interfere with the more  
important things that are going on", and it's something that tends to  
crop up quite a lot...

BillW

2009\01\16@123523 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
>
>
> Unfortunately, the greater issue here is along the lines of "how to
> not let what ought to be a trivial problem interfere with the more
> important things that are going on", and it's something that tends to
> crop up quite a lot...
>
> BillW
>
> -

2009\01\19@002440 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
"Alexandros Nipirakis" wrote:
> (BTW, I am completely useless for posting, so I am sure that the way I am
> posting is probably wrong.  To be honest, I am not too sure on what the
> correct and accepted method of posting is.  This is one of the big reasons
> that I am more of an observer than contributor).

Huh? :)

2009\01\21@171953 by Peter

picon face
Uhh, is this cartoon related in any way with 'embrace and extend', imposing
commercial file formats, and this thread ?

 http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090110&mode=classic

</duck>
Peter


2009\01\22@075933 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter wrote:

> Uhh, is this cartoon related in any way with 'embrace and extend',
> imposing commercial file formats, and this thread ?
>
> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090110&mode=classic

Possibly... and definitely once you get more lawyers into the mix :)

Can you even imagine the court wars trying to take competitors' sites
down because of (alleged or factual) "incompatibilities"?

> </duck>

To me, when it walks like a lawyer, and quacks like a lawyer, I try to
stay away... Of course, like the cartoon seems to show, there are the
people that smell the buck in that duck and are attracted like the flies
to wherever they like to fly around :)

Gerhard

2009\01\22@093009 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
>

Well, a fair amount has happened before with the "Requirements for  
Internet Hosts" documents (RFC1122 and RFC1123, I think.)

Most of the Internet protocols are "described" in somewhat casual  
documents called RFCs (Request For Comments), and while these are  
really great compared to CCITT documents (for example) for describing  
how a protocol should work, they can be a bit loose on all the  
niggling little details, error conditions, and so on.   Some of these  
issues were dealt with in later RFCs, some via other research papers,  
some via word of mouth.  So when it started to look like the whole TCP/
IP thing might "catch on" (late 1980s), the IETF thought it would be a  
good idea to collect a bunch of wisdom on exactly which pieces of  
which protocols and extensions thereof and so on into a clear list of  
MUST, SHOULD, MAY, SHOULD NOT, MUST NOT rules that would cover the  
core internet protocols.

I guess it was a useful exercise.  For one thing, it turned out that a  
lot of what people thought was clear, really wasn't, and it mostly got  
discussed by the relevant people, and appropriate decisions were made  
and recorded.  Researchers and students an the like had a really nice  
summary of the state of the world, some important new algorithms got  
given quite a boost (whether they were perfect or not, they were  
almost certainly better than the previous set that was floating around.)

The results were a bit of a Pain in the Neck for Internet Equipment  
vendors, though.  There's a little summary at the end of the RFC  
listing the 100+ items discussed and their status, and we'd get RFPs  
listing each and every item, wanting a pointer to the relevant piece  
of user documentation that "proved" that we met the requirement for  
the item.  Even though some weren't applicable to Routers (for  
example) in the first place...  Berkeley in particular went to a lot  
of trouble to conform, which was a good thing since pretty much every  
commercial TCP/IP implementation thereafter was based on it.  
Microsoft Windows started including TCP/IP in W95, sometime near 1995,  
based on who-knows-what version of BSD, and I don't think it ever got  
the sort of scrutiny that smaller vendors were subjected to.  I mean,  
it was Microsoft, and it was Windows, and it was included FREE...

The key result is that a monopolistic enough vendor can pretty much  
ignore requests for standardization:  "whadda ya mean bub?  We ARE the  
standard!"  I mean, everybody knows that Microsoft encourages non-
standard web page constructs, and at least strongly suspects that  
Microsoft web development tools yield pages that are at best sub-
optimal for non-Explorer Browsers.  Our corporate standards call for  
support of Windows, linux, and MacOS, and a couple different  
browsers.  But it doesn't stop the existence of core internal  
corporate web pages that just don't work, or work badly, if viewed  
from anything other than Internet Explorer.  It's not that the tools  
(or the web page designers) CAN'T produce standardized pages, it's  
just that they make it SO EASY to do otherwise...   Grr.

BillW

2009\01\22@220348 by Peter

picon face
William "Chops" Westfield <westfw <at> mac.com> writes:
> from anything other than Internet Explorer.  It's not that the tools  
> (or the web page designers) CAN'T produce standardized pages, it's  
> just that they make it SO EASY to do otherwise...   Grr.

I think that this is an important point that deserves some widening of the idea.

Just as there are many ways to say 'Yes' while meaning 'No' in the bedroom, the
way companies come across about their intentions may also bear more or less
obvious messages. The particular message/motivation that comes across here is
'we are doing everything we can to accomodate you but we do not have the
time/resources to test for everything'. Riight. Similar 'explanations' were used
to explain the inexplicably lax USPTO previous art search in certain domains
('workload' + 'backlog' + 'limited time alloted for each check'), and there is
one very large company that says it shall do no evil but can hardly afford to
check and cull or remedy both false and true 'spam' web pages from its search
database on time (i.e. within a week or so at most). And this is just a little
part of the whole, I think.

The bottom line is, technically speaking, 'our priorities lie elsewhere, we
can't afford the time/cost to make that aspect work'. So it seems that the issue
is often not about what they say they do or do not do, but about what they do or
don't do :)

Making companies stick to what they say they will do and not do using legal
arguments is a powerful mechanism that might remedy the situation in time. In
Europe, misrepresentation laws are very strong (because there is a long history
of economic wars based on brand and name stealing, including across borders
etc), and someone who says that he is 'compatible' while he is not can and will
be sued, and lose. It is not an accident that the EU is suing M$
quasi-continuously over compatibility, file format and browser integration
issues. In the EU, such innocuous things as wine, butter and cheese cannot be
called certain ways on the label without satisfying stringent regulations. The
penalties can be staggering.

In the case of M$ it would take a change in corporate policy and attitude to
achieve any improvement. The present leadership apparently forbid their children
to use iPods and do other interesting things to avoid compatibility 'problems',
dead or alive.

Maybe something good will come of this crisis after all. The squeeze will likely
lead to consolidation combined with a stronger drive towards lower cost, open
platforms which are more immune from the 'spend and upgrade' cycle of closed
platforms.

After all, one must choose whether to buy the work of others in the form of an
integrated product, or hire or use in house workers to achieve the same
functional result, exactly the same as in electronics or embedded or anything
else. One can buy a $120+ PIC development platform board and start developing
after delivery, or build it for $15 in parts in a week, or hire someone to build
and certify it to some standards for $??.

The same choices as in IT, but, somehow, in embedded the emphasis is more on
things that work than on politics. Perhaps because sufficient functional testing
standards exist (at the latest, when the client does not pay because the product
does not work or crashes too often).

Imho, the time for the web and for it has come to grow up and join the
*existing* engineering standards that allow one to plug in an appliance and
expect it to work, not catch fire and in any case not to low the mains fuse and
leave one in the dark, or cause the competitor's appliance in the nearest plug
to short out. This is all about standards imho. I can't see why a $5 phone
charger or a $120 PIC development system can achieve that while a $300 operating
system and proprietary standards collection can't and does not even come close
to try to achieve, after more than 25 years of development.

Peter


2009\01\23@151244 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter wrote:

> I can't see why a $5 phone charger [...] can achieve that while a $300
> operating system and proprietary standards collection can't

I've got three phones here, each with a charger. As much as I try, each
of the chargers doesn't seem to fit into the other two phones :)

I've read a lot the car analogy in this context. Maybe what you want is
more like requiring that it is possible to exchange motors and
transmissions between brands at will? This would really boost
competition, would be welcomed by many, and would completely shake up
the car market as we know it, but it is so far from reality that
probably nobody even dreams about this.

Gerhard

2009\01\23@160859 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> I've read a lot the car analogy in this context. Maybe what you want is
> more like requiring that it is possible to exchange motors and
> transmissions between brands at will?

My Opel has a BMW 6 cyl engine, the Volkswagen my father used to have had a
5 cyl Audi engine, the Seat Cordoba my friend had was with a Porshe engine,
Rovers used to be equipped with Honda engine :-)

Tamas




On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Gerhard Fiedler <TakeThisOuTlistsEraseMEspamspam_OUTconnectionbrazil.com
{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\01\23@163117 by Funny NYPD

picon face
It would be very interesting if we see a Mercedes equipped with a BMW engine. Big players haven't ended up with this kind of situation just yet. It could be possible if the auto industry keep falling down.
 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaispamTakeThisOuTgmail.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistEraseMEspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:08:53 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of College

> I've read a lot the car analogy in this context. Maybe what you want is
> more like requiring that it is possible to exchange motors and
> transmissions between brands at will?

My Opel has a BMW 6 cyl engine, the Volkswagen my father used to have had a
5 cyl Audi engine, the Seat Cordoba my friend had was with a Porshe engine,
Rovers used to be equipped with Honda engine :-)

Tamas




On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsspamconnectionbrazil.com
{Quote hidden}

>

2009\01\23@163552 by Funny NYPD

picon face
You may have some old cell phone, the Chinese goverment had some regulation on cell phone chargers which kicked in a while back, and all cell phones sold in China must meet that regulation. I would imagine most of the new cell phones will have silimiar charger interfaces, especially when consider that China is the number 1 cell phone market in the whole world. The cell phone user over there might be more than the population of the USA.
 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Gerhard Fiedler <RemoveMElistsEraseMEspamEraseMEconnectionbrazil.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 3:12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of College

Peter wrote:

> I can't see why a $5 phone charger [...] can achieve that while a $300
> operating system and proprietary standards collection can't

I've got three phones here, each with a charger. As much as I try, each
of the chargers doesn't seem to fit into the other two phones :)

I've read a lot the car analogy in this context. Maybe what you want is
more like requiring that it is possible to exchange motors and
transmissions between brands at will? This would really boost
competition, would be welcomed by many, and would completely shake up
the car market as we know it, but it is so far from reality that
probably nobody even dreams about this.

Gerhard

2009\01\23@165403 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> Big players haven't ended up with this kind of situation just yet.

Well, I think hardly can find any British car manufacturer's that is still
owned by British investors. Rover was for example a quite big factory which
included other British models like MG, Mini or Triumph - BMW bought them up
then sold them separately and I think the Rover (not the Land / Range Rover
though) is not even existing anymore but I might wrong on it. Typical cars
like Aston Martin and Rolls Royce are no more in British hands too. Maybe
Lotus and TVR are still doing ok? Anyway, Germans are doing well as far as I
concern, and I really hope Mercedes will never need a BMW engine, that would
be really awkward :-)

Tamas



On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Funny NYPD <RemoveMEfunnynypdTakeThisOuTspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2009\01\23@172720 by Funny NYPD

picon face
So, what's the reason/lesson learned (on personal opinions, of course) that German Auto company is still kicking and running, and most of the British Auto company seems falling apart. Some of those British Auto brand are dedicated for luxury/high end (high profit probably) cars too.

Any lesson/experiences American Auto company can learn? Especially when Asian auto company begin dominating the US market.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Tamas Rudnai <spamBeGonetamas.rudnaiSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <KILLspampiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:53:37 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of  College

> Big players haven't ended up with this kind of situation just yet.

Well, I think hardly can find any British car manufacturer's that is still
owned by British investors. Rover was for example a quite big factory which
included other British models like MG, Mini or Triumph - BMW bought them up
then sold them separately and I think the Rover (not the Land / Range Rover
though) is not even existing anymore but I might wrong on it. Typical cars
like Aston Martin and Rolls Royce are no more in British hands too. Maybe
Lotus and TVR are still doing ok? Anyway, Germans are doing well as far as I
concern, and I really hope Mercedes will never need a BMW engine, that would
be really awkward :-)

Tamas



On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Funny NYPD <EraseMEfunnynypdspamEraseMEyahoo.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2009\01\23@191319 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Begin?  They already do.  

I would have been happier to see the autos not get bailed out and Honda
EXPAND in the U.S. by buying up their workers and their assets.  It also
would have severely damaged the stranglehold that the UAW has on Auto
manufacturing here, too.  The MARKET could have fixed the problems... yeah,
people would have to move out of Detroit and go to Tenessee, perhaps.  But
it would have happened... painful, yes... but what do these people expect
but pain if they can't build a car that lasts as long as the competition?

In other words:  Who wants a Chevy when the Honda will last longer, drive
better, and generally give more value?  Toyota's overpriced, but has the
value of the Honda stuff too... if you want to pay more, or like their
styling or whatever?

If we're not shopping for value in a recession and voting with our bucks to
support the MOST EFFICIENT/EFFECTIVE companies, and instead we're bailing
out the bad businesses in Detroit... we're just prolonging the inevitable.

Chevy (well, GMC actually) just insulted me in a more personal way yesterday
-- I have been signed up for a long time for their marketing e-mails,
thinking that my next Pickup Truck MIGHT be American, if that's how the
chips fall and it's worth it.  But...

I got an e-mail from them that they're offering $4500 cash back for "loyal"
customers.  Customers who've had a GMC lease or loan anytime after 1999.

First off, why send that to me?  I'm sure they HAVE a list of loyal
customers, why insult someone who's never bought GMC with an offer they
can't take advantage of?  Stupid marketers.  Bad managers letting that one
out the door...

How does it make me feel?  My government just spent billions of dollars I'll
have to pay back on you idiots, and you can't even control your Marketing.
You're saying the best you can do is support the people who've ALREADY
BOUGHT GMC VEHICLES?  I'd think you should extend your offers to anyone --
just to sell the piles of vehicles you can't sell, that are stacking up in
parking lots, GM!

I can't go into detail here, but GM (in my professional life) has
demonstrated in other ways that they're one of the worst-managed companies
I've ever worked with.  That e-mail was the last straw.  I'd buy a Yugo
before I'd send money to General Motors, now.

Good riddance GM, I say.  Some better company will buy your assets, hire
most (not all) of your staff, and do a better job making vehicles.
Seriously.

Nate

{Original Message removed}

2009\01\23@194114 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Have you driven a Ford lately?

 What Ford did with the UAW (there still is a little more tweaking to
do, there always is), to partner with the UAW in early 1980's, GM still
has to do. That is evident by the strikes that persist with GM, when is
the last you heard of a Ford strike??

 When you hear of a auto worker making big bucks, check into how many
hours he worked in a week, for many weeks, and ask how his family life
is. Check the benefits and hourly of the UPS driver, your local fireman,
and others, you won't find it that far out of line. Fords' pension fund
for both hourly and salaried is separate from Ford Motor Co. and as of
the end of 2007, was funded 103%. Don't know the status of the others.


My current Fords have 60K and 100K miles on them. Previous vehicles have
had 130K, 150K, and daughter had an Escort with well over 200K miles on
it. Al have preformed well with good gas mileage and performance and
minimum of repairs. The Cougar with a Cleveland Engine has blown off
more than a few BMW and Mercedes on the mountains between Cleveland and
Atlanta, and does more than 30 MPG running 75 - 80+ mph.

Compare the cost of service and routine parts of the foreign brands. A
friend had a O2 sensor go in a Nissan Altima, the bill was over $400.
Thats a $50 part at best and less than an hours work. The scanner showed
that bad part, unscrew a sparkplug like part, in the new one, clear the
codes with the scanner, probably never  unplugged.

Nate Duehr wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\01\23@202404 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Okay, I got a little emotional there, and my ire is DEFINITELY directed at
GM, not Ford.  I owned too many Ford trucks that had annoying little
problems in the early 90's, and wouldn't buy a Ford again on a bet... but I
don't doubt that they're doing a better job of things than GM right now,
after seeing a friend's F-150.  Not bad, but I think I can do better.

I'll give you points for the cost of parts.  Our VW has some expensive parts
on it, but the length of the warranty has covered everything.  Most
manufacturers are doing this nowadays, so the parts aren't as important
until after the first 100,000 miles or more.  

The parts suppliers were the serious fiscal policy problem in not bailing
out GM... GM can die for all I care, but their suppliers would have to
scramble and many would go under switching to delivering goods to Ford,
Honda, Toyota... whoever.  That would be bad.  I definitely see the bigger
picture there.

So... no, I haven't "Driven a Ford Lately", but I'm unlikely to.  I wouldn't
say they're "bad" though.  Just not as good as the alternatives.

My experience with vehicles has been this:

1977 Toyota Corolla Liftback - Ran even when it lost a cylinder and needed a
head job.  Simple enough to have the heads done, and I put the darn thing
back on myself to save money.  Couldn't kill that car.  

1990 (or was it 91?) Geo Metro.  Biggest mistake of my life.  GM product.
Dented it sitting on the hood.

1984 Jeep Cherokee V6 Standard Transmission: Indestructible, but poor
brakes.  I rolled it on a country road into a ditch, and kept driving it.

1989 Ford F-150 V8 Automatic:  Always ran, but constantly replacing things
on it.  Maintenance headache.  Drivetrain problems.  Noises from the tranny.
Weird truck.  Never trusted that it'd go when it needed to.

1992 Ford F-150 V6 Standard Transmission: Actually, this Ford was a step up
from the other truck, and I needed a pickup truck badly at the time.  Made
the mistake of buying a standard cab, not enough room.  Interior components
(plastic) always breaking, fit and finish of whole truck was sloppy.

1997 Honda Civic EX: First Honda. Wife's car.  She got hit six times in
seven years, and the car, even with all that abuse never had a single
problem other than constantly having to replace body panels!  (HA!)  Not a
single maintenance issue.  Sold it in 2004 with over 200,000 miles on it.

Driving now:

2004.5 (1/2 year model) VW Jetta Wagon, Diesel (TDI) Automatic: Runs great,
problems with intake manifold cracks, but all covered under warranty.
Sunroof motor failed two weeks into ownership, replaced under warranty, no
other problems.  35 MPG city, 40+ HWY.  (Currently at about 80K miles.)

2000 Jeep Cherokee "Classic": Brakes poor (should have seen that coming),
multiple brake jobs, replacement of master cylinder, two radiators, water
pump, multiple alignments for tire wear in front, etc etc etc.  155K miles.


Am I going back to Honda, yes... if I don't need a truck.  (I don't like the
Ridgeline.)

Vehicles in the running for next vehicle (always subject to change --
requirements are that it must carry 4 pax with full tools for a mountain-top
4WD-only road to work on radio gear):

- GMC Sierra or higher (Diesel preferred) up until yesterday, anyway.
- Chevy Tahoe (I like them, but I can't really cost justify it...)
- Ford F-250 Diesel * Over the years, I've learned that Ford puts better
components into the 250 and up, compared to the 150.  I'd ONLY consider the
higher priced truck.
- Dodge Trucks (these are looking good after the model refresh this year,
but I'll wait for maintenance data - I also haven't done my homework on them
yet)
- Toyota Tacoma/Tundra (Tacoma for efficiency, Tundra for size... can't
decide.)
- Nissan Titan/Armada (had one as a rental... some people balk at the size
and 18 MPG, but that matches my Cherokee today, so it's no skin off my
nose!)

Also, since I've "gotten over" my desires to own new vehicles (my wife
hasn't but she really does drive them until someone makes her stop driving
them), the decision will also be based on what's available in the used
market.

For now; the Jeep does anything "expensive" again, it's going to be a
cost-benefit analysis to decide if it goes or stays.  It's paid off.  The
best kind of car.

Comments/ideas welcome.  (I've also considered buying a used econo-box for
work commuting which is 27 miles one-way, 54 round-trip daily, and then
buying a "beater" pickup truck for the site trips, but I think I'd rather
avoid being a three vehicle family altogether.  And there's a "transition
period" in that plan where I'd be without 4WD, something I'm not going to do
unless I can make it happen in the summertime in Colorado.)

Another option... stop doing all the volunteer radio work at mountain-top
sites altogether, get a convertible for fun, and keep the Jeep parked for
snow days.  That's probably the most "sane" option, but I'm not quite to
"mid-life crisis convertible man" stage yet.  LOL!

When I REALLY get serious, I'll make a spreadsheet of pros/cons, prices,
current manufacturer offers, and all that... like I did for the VW.  I'd
have to type a lot more than the above to do the pro/con analysis, and I pay
for a service to get true dealer pricing when I'm really ready to buy new.
Used vehicles, I just lowball everything I see that matches the requirements
until some seller who needs to sell, bites.  Best to shop when you don't
need to, of course... if you're playing that game.  

(My dad and I store an older Chevy Suburban in my garage for emergencies or
when we need to haul LARGE numbers of people around, like big ski trips or
whatever, haul stuff, whatever -- but it's whopping 8MPG city means it sits
parked most of the time.  During the winter he uses it heavily for the
above-mentioned ski trips, meaning that "the ski bus is leaving!" is a
commonly stated phrase between us and our friends.  He splits the fuel costs
with the riders, and likes to drive.)

I won't be ready to buy until the Jeep pisses me off again.  It will, I'm
sure.  And I can live with "a little pissed off" for not having a car
payment!   :-)

Nate

-----Original Message-----
From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bounces.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu [TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Carl Denk
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:41 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of
College

Have you driven a Ford lately?


2009\01\23@213858 by Funny NYPD

picon face
In some short words:
As a normal person, and tax payer, We first being robbed by all those banks, then by GM. I am curious who will be the next "too big to let fail" kind of joker?

American express is now a bank, GMAC is now a bank too, those two used to have nothing to do with banks. Now they both are "banks" just to be qualified on cutting a big pile of the cake on the robbed Money. Those are just "easy" money for greedys. And that's blood money.
 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Nate Duehr <.....natespamRemoveMEnatetech.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:12:51 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of College

Begin?  They already do. 

I would have been happier to see the autos not get bailed out and Honda
EXPAND in the U.S. by buying up their workers and their assets.  It also
would have severely damaged the stranglehold that the UAW has on Auto
manufacturing here, too.  The MARKET could have fixed the problems... yeah,
people would have to move out of Detroit and go to Tenessee, perhaps.  But
it would have happened... painful, yes... but what do these people expect
but pain if they can't build a car that lasts as long as the competition?

In other words:  Who wants a Chevy when the Honda will last longer, drive
better, and generally give more value?  Toyota's overpriced, but has the
value of the Honda stuff too... if you want to pay more, or like their
styling or whatever?

If we're not shopping for value in a recession and voting with our bucks to
support the MOST EFFICIENT/EFFECTIVE companies, and instead we're bailing
out the bad businesses in Detroit... we're just prolonging the inevitable.

Chevy (well, GMC actually) just insulted me in a more personal way yesterday
-- I have been signed up for a long time for their marketing e-mails,
thinking that my next Pickup Truck MIGHT be American, if that's how the
chips fall and it's worth it.  But...

I got an e-mail from them that they're offering $4500 cash back for "loyal"
customers.  Customers who've had a GMC lease or loan anytime after 1999.

First off, why send that to me?  I'm sure they HAVE a list of loyal
customers, why insult someone who's never bought GMC with an offer they
can't take advantage of?  Stupid marketers.  Bad managers letting that one
out the door...

How does it make me feel?  My government just spent billions of dollars I'll
have to pay back on you idiots, and you can't even control your Marketing.
You're saying the best you can do is support the people who've ALREADY
BOUGHT GMC VEHICLES?  I'd think you should extend your offers to anyone --
just to sell the piles of vehicles you can't sell, that are stacking up in
parking lots, GM!

I can't go into detail here, but GM (in my professional life) has
demonstrated in other ways that they're one of the worst-managed companies
I've ever worked with.  That e-mail was the last straw.  I'd buy a Yugo
before I'd send money to General Motors, now.

Good riddance GM, I say.  Some better company will buy your assets, hire
most (not all) of your staff, and do a better job making vehicles.
Seriously.

Nate

{Original Message removed}

2009\01\23@214419 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Lucky you picked up some good fords.
Not for those with Focus and Explorers.
It is interesting UK Focus is a very good car. The US Focus is a big trouble and so easy to catch fires. I have seen at least two Focus and one Explorer burning on the road in the past five years. And I still don't understand why the Explorer cruise switch will catch a fire. There is nothing to burn on the steering wheel.
Oh Ford, what can I say.
 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenk@spam@spamspam_OUTalltel.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <TakeThisOuTpiclistspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:40:46 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of College

Have you driven a Ford lately?

  What Ford did with the UAW (there still is a little more tweaking to
do, there always is), to partner with the UAW in early 1980's, GM still
has to do. That is evident by the strikes that persist with GM, when is
the last you heard of a Ford strike??

  When you hear of a auto worker making big bucks, check into how many
hours he worked in a week, for many weeks, and ask how his family life
is. Check the benefits and hourly of the UPS driver, your local fireman,
and others, you won't find it that far out of line. Fords' pension fund
for both hourly and salaried is separate from Ford Motor Co. and as of
the end of 2007, was funded 103%. Don't know the status of the others.


My current Fords have 60K and 100K miles on them. Previous vehicles have
had 130K, 150K, and daughter had an Escort with well over 200K miles on
it. Al have preformed well with good gas mileage and performance and
minimum of repairs. The Cougar with a Cleveland Engine has blown off
more than a few BMW and Mercedes on the mountains between Cleveland and
Atlanta, and does more than 30 MPG running 75 - 80+ mph.

Compare the cost of service and routine parts of the foreign brands. A
friend had a O2 sensor go in a Nissan Altima, the bill was over $400.
Thats a $50 part at best and less than an hours work. The scanner showed
that bad part, unscrew a sparkplug like part, in the new one, clear the
codes with the scanner, probably never  unplugged.

Nate Duehr wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\01\23@230234 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
You're missing the point.

You (and I) voted for those people who gave the banks the money.  The  
banks are "greedy" because that's what banks do, for those invested in  
them.  (You too, can buy bank stocks, thanks to capitalism.)

Shame on us for who WE voted for.

Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.

--
Nate Duehr
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2009, at 19:38, Funny NYPD <funnynypdEraseMEspamyahoo.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\01\24@012535 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Shame on us for who WE voted for.
>
> Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.

Unfortunately, only politicians seem to be available to vote for.


                  R

2009\01\24@020417 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
LOL. People will have to engage sooner and vote in the Primaries!  
Whoa!  Imagine that.

Just think. If you don't like what I'm saying, I tell people, I *do*  
vote in primaries, so I get to pick who you vote for!  (grin)

--
Nate Duehr
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2009, at 23:16, apptech <EraseMEapptechspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>> Shame on us for who WE voted for.
>>
>> Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.
>
> Unfortunately, only politicians seem to be available to vote for.
>
>
>                   R
> --

2009\01\24@081849 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Actually you don't have feel like that.

It doesn't matter who you (or I) vote. The truth is this country's medium has become more government/organization controlled, and you can only hear one voice from all kinds of medium: newspaper, radio, TV, Internet, etc. They all say the same thing everyday.

All those medium are either directly controlled by the government or directly/indirectly controlled by some big banks/bank financed organizations. That's why most people are brain washed everyday. So when banks/bankers lied, all the medium covered them so well that people won't even feel it or against it. And the truth for Federal Reserve is there is nothing "Federal", there is only a private banks' organization named "Federal". The name itself is a lie, it just makes you thinks they represent the Federal government. The fact is: there is nothing tied tightly to the central government of the US. But the US government owe huge chunk of money to this private organization, so no matter what color of the skin the President has, you will figure out who the US government works for: regular people? you or me? No, for the money, the banks.

And the result of this medium manipulation is: people lost information source and the banker made you think like a banker.

(It is a pity, I still think independently. sorry, bankers.)
 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com




________________________________
From: Nate Duehr <@spam@natespam_OUTspam.....natetech.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <spamBeGonepiclistEraseMEspammit.edu>
Cc: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:01:59 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ubuntu Causes (not really Stupid) Girl to Drop Out of College

You're missing the point.

You (and I) voted for those people who gave the banks the money.  The 
banks are "greedy" because that's what banks do, for those invested in 
them.  (You too, can buy bank stocks, thanks to capitalism.)

Shame on us for who WE voted for.

Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.

--
Nate Duehr
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2009, at 19:38, Funny NYPD <RemoveMEfunnynypd@spam@spamspamBeGoneyahoo.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\01\24@082954 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Agreed, the choices put up by the political machine seem to scrape the
bottom of the barrel, and it permeates from the lowness of the township
(lowest rung on the government ladder in Ohio) to the highest. Just a
bunch of puppets, and don't know who the puppeteer is. :(  Our US
representative is Marci Kaptur, see voted against the bailout, and seems
to be one of the better ones, definitely not one of the normals. And we
vote every opportunity, though many times it seems a waste of time. ~)

apptech wrote:
>> Shame on us for who WE voted for.
>>
>> Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.
>
> Unfortunately, only politicians seem to be available to vote for.
>
>
>                    R

2009\01\24@092442 by Carl Denk

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And being an electronics orientated list, probably most will understand.
The cruise control disable circuit uses the brake stop light switch
mounted on the master cylinder. A simple pressure switch. For the stop
lights, and usually there are a few other items on that fuse, the fuse
is sized appropriately for the wire size and load. Then when the cruise
control went electronic (with tap up/down), they just took a small wire,
after all the load is very small, probably microamp range, to the cruise
control PCB. That wire is the issue, and the fix is add a fuse after the
switch. A small harness with a fuse and 2 connectors, takes longer to
tywrap than add the actual harness. When we first learned about the
recall on the F-150's, and the Bronco is a F-150, I bought the F-150
part for $20 and installed. 6 months later the Bronco was recalled and
the dealer removed what I put on, and installed a different design
harness in minutes and no charge.

9/11 the Bronco was in the Canadian Rockies (From Ohio). With original
brakes and tires, 70,000 miles when we left home, no special
maintenance, was driven 5000 miles in 10 days including Cleveland to
Calgary (2000 miles) and Banff to Cleveland (2200 miles) each in 3 days,
2 people driving, a good nights sleep in motel each night, averaged 18
MPG for a 5400 lb. vehicle cruising in the 80 mph range.

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2009\01\24@134156 by Peter

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Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Any lesson/experiences American Auto company can learn? Especially when Asian
> auto company begin dominating the US market.

Sushi good, burger bad ? Not really, there are no snake oil methods. Sony just
announced that they let go a lot of workers.

To understand what is/was behind Japanese industry one should read 'Japan, Inc',
the sory of Sony and a few others. Other Far Eastern industries have slightly
similar operation mentalities, albeit different roots. In short, once could say
that the current US auto industry bailout request is not new to the Asian
industries, which are so intricately involved with state-run banks and other
political arrangements that the financial support system is practically built
into the system, and has been for decades.

Peter


2009\01\24@184202 by Michael Algernon

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>
> On Jan 23, 2009, at 11:16 PM, apptech wrote:
>
>> Shame on us for who WE voted for.
>>
>> Vote for someone else as soon as possible and send a message.
>
> Unfortunately, only politicians seem to be available to vote for.
>
>
>                   R
I never vote ( mob rule ).  I would never want to be blamed for adding  
to the momentum of increase regulations and the size of the  
government.  The only politician I donated money to in recent memory  
was Ron Paul.  That was because he promised to dismantle some part of  
the US Government.
MA

2009\01\24@203142 by John Ward

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hmm.. you guys have too much free time. find some work.. oh wait.. all
of your jobs are now in china ?
lol

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 1:41 AM, Michael Algernon <RemoveMEpicspamspamBeGonenope9.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\01\25@125747 by Nate Duehr

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Funny NYPD wrote:
> And the truth for Federal Reserve is there is nothing "Federal", there is only a private banks' organization named "Federal". The name itself is a lie, it just makes you thinks they represent the Federal government. The fact is: there is nothing tied tightly to the central government of the US.
They're where the free money gets doled out from the Congress voted to
hand out, so I disagree with your sentiment that they're just a private
orgainzation.  The Fed is a central bank.  Try getting U.S. cash
anywhere other than the Fed Window.

If you really want to get down to it, all banks are fake -- loaning out
money at 14:1 or whatever has always been a ponzi scheme.  The job of
the Fed and SEC is to oversee the private banks.  They're not doing very
well at that.

But saying the Fed is private is laughable.  How long would there would
be any paper cash in circulation without a Fed and the Treasury.  Would
you recommend we go back to each bank printing their own money?  That's
funny.

> But the US government owe huge chunk of money to this private organization, so no matter what color of the skin the President has, you will figure out who the US government works for: regular people? you or me? No, for the money, the banks.
>  
Government for, by and of the Corporation.  You're just figuring this
out?  Not like that's anything new...

The only person who's going to work for you, is ... gosh... you.

> And the result of this medium manipulation is: people lost information source and the banker made you think like a banker.
>  
This sentence makes no sense.  I think like a macro-economist more than
a banker... because if you think banks are going away any time soon,
you're going to be disappointed.  Thinking like a banker or an economist
helps you to get ahead of the system, while the masses listen to the
drivel.  It's a lot simpler than one might imagine too... the key rule,
"Follow the money."

You still didn't address my point, you just switched to a new one.

Answer the question:  The people who you voted for, gave the bankers the
money.  What are you going to do about that?

Bankers can be greedy all day and all night (and will be)... if you vote
for people who are willing to hand them your tax money, then they're
going to get your money.  Pretty simple political realities, there.

Nate

2009\01\25@155755 by Michael Algernon

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{Quote hidden}

That is exactly what should happen.  Such money would be backed by the  
reputation the bank which would strive to be reputable.
MA



WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2009\01\26@062119 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Tamas Rudnai wrote:

>> I've read a lot the car analogy in this context. Maybe what you want
>> is more like requiring that it is possible to exchange motors and
>> transmissions between brands at will?
>
> My Opel has a BMW 6 cyl engine, the Volkswagen my father used to have
> had a 5 cyl Audi engine, the Seat Cordoba my friend had was with a
> Porshe engine, Rovers used to be equipped with Honda engine :-)

Of course, but they /came/ with it. Good luck mounting the Porsche
machine from your friend's Seat in your Opel. /This/ is what I was
writing about -- "exchange at will", not "came with a different brand
engine".

Gerhard

2009\01\26@085456 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Funny NYPD wrote:

>>> I can't see why a $5 phone charger [...] can achieve that while a
>>> $300 operating system and proprietary standards collection can't
>>
>> I've got three phones here, each with a charger. As much as I try,
>> each of the chargers doesn't seem to fit into the other two phones
>> :)
>
> You may have some old cell phone, the Chinese goverment had some
> regulation on cell phone chargers which kicked in a while back,
> and all cell phones sold in China must meet that regulation.

I didn't buy them in China :) Also, how old is "old"?

However, it may well be that the Chinese regulation achieves a worldwide
unification of charger plugs. What would this then say about the
original issue (regulating HTML)? Given the firewall between Chinese
Internet and the rest of the world, and the little importance Chinese
customers have for most of the rest of the world's vendors, I'd say very
little.

Gerhard

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