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'[OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem'
2005\12\15@213042 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
For the past two evenings I was struggling with the upgrade
of Ubuntu 5.04 Hoary to 5.10 Breezy.

In the first evening, I was downloading about 1G of upgrade
packages (I have burnt the 5.10 CD already) with the "smart
dist-upgrade".

In the second evening, after upgrading, I could not go into X
anymore. After trying "sudo apt-get -f install" and "sudo
apt-get dist-upgrade" and fixing some problem with
.Xauthority and .ICEXauthority, finally I could go into X.

After some more running of "sudo apt-get -f install", now
the system is not that broken as yesterday evening. It is
still broken though

The major problem is with one package:
linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu13_i386.deb
Whatever I do it complains the same thing
"unable to create `./usr/include/linux/autoconf.h':
No such file or directory".

Somehow google does not help this time.

I then made a mistake, I force-removed this original package and now
I can not install it any more. So now my libc6-devel package is
broken and this means all the development packages are
broken.

In the past upgrading from one Linux version to the next
was always frustrating and I always ended up with fresh
installation. There are other broken packages as well:
thunderbird and openoffice-2.0 are broken as well. I think
my system is really broken.

I originally hoped that Ubuntu would be better but apparently
I am wrong.

It seems that people are really having problems with Breezy:
http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/f-94.html


Regards,
Xiaofan


mcuee@ubuntu:~$ sudo apt-get -f install
Password:
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Correcting dependencies... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
 linux-kernel-headers
The following NEW packages will be installed:
 linux-kernel-headers
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 9 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B/1037kB of archives.
After unpacking 6640kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y

Preconfiguring packages ...
(Reading database ... 224606 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking linux-kernel-headers (from
.../linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu13_i386.deb) ...
dpkg: error processing
/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu13_i386.deb
(--unpack):
 unable to create `./usr/include/linux/autoconf.h': No such file or directory
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu13_i386.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

2005\12\15@232759 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Xiaofan Chen <spam_OUTxiaofancTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> The major problem is with one package:
> linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu13_i386.deb
> Whatever I do it complains the same thing
> "unable to create `./usr/include/linux/autoconf.h':
> No such file or directory".
>
> Somehow google does not help this time.
>
> I then made a mistake, I force-removed this original package and now
> I can not install it any more. So now my libc6-devel package is
> broken and this means all the development packages are
> broken.

After trying for the whole morning, it is still broken.

This broken package means that I can not compile anything now. ;-(
I can not even compile pk2 and pyk now for PICkit 2. ;-(

Maybe I have to reinstall the whole system. ;-(

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\15@234026 by Jose Da Silva

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face
On December 15, 2005 06:30 pm, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> For the past two evenings I was struggling with the upgrade
> of Ubuntu 5.04 Hoary to 5.10 Breezy.

I've found that it's simply less trouble to keep the /home on a separate
partition and reformat everything else fresh... (just speaking of
Mandrake 7->8->10->10.2->2006)

Like you are finding-out, some packages depend on others, some upgrades
are okay while others still need a bit of debugging. Other packages
depend on new stuff that was never there... for example, just as a tiny
example, I've contributed a little towards aspell, and for now, the
0.60 series has word-list-compress, but the next version eventually
does not have word-list-compress, but has prezip-bin instead... okay,
so you update your computer, and something that used to look for
word-list-compress says... "hey! wait a sec, where did that go?"

Long story short, you may find it easier to simply install fresh versus
trying to search through all the dependencies which sometimes move on
you.

In summary, keep your /home on a separate partition since you don't keep
executables there, and wipe clean the rest... this also gets rid of
cruft too :-) Then after installing the new stuff, reintroduce
your /home/users

hope that helps, or at least cuts a lot of wasted time.

2005\12\15@234331 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sounds like the package itself is kinda screwy.  What happens if you
manually download it to a directory and try to install it with dpkg -i ?

Nate

2005\12\15@234529 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On December 15, 2005 08:27 pm, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

keep your /home/users
and
keep useful rpms or tars somewhere so that you can re-introduce them on
a fresh install.... maybe something like /home/RPMs_tars.

That way you got a directory full of stuff you know you want to
re-introduce on fresh installs.

2005\12\16@013833 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Nate Duehr <.....nateKILLspamspam.....natetech.com> wrote:

>
> Sounds like the package itself is kinda screwy.  What happens if you
> manually download it to a directory and try to install it with dpkg -i ?
>
> Nate
>

I tried this and it still complains the same thing. I even tried to
force install the old version and it complains exactly the same thing.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@014155 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Jose Da Silva <EraseMEDigitalspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTjoescat.com> wrote:
>
> Long story short, you may find it easier to simply install fresh versus
> trying to search through all the dependencies which sometimes move on
> you.
>
> In summary, keep your /home on a separate partition since you don't keep
> executables there, and wipe clean the rest... this also gets rid of
> cruft too :-) Then after installing the new stuff, reintroduce
> your /home/users

Luckily I have my a seperated home partition. The problem is that I may want to
switch to other distribution after this incident. I have another
Fedora Core 4 Linux
installation on a laptop and it seems quite okay as well.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@020454 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
>
> After trying for the whole morning, it is still broken.
>
> This broken package means that I can not compile anything now. ;-(
> I can not even compile pk2 and pyk now for PICkit 2. ;-(
>
> Maybe I have to reinstall the whole system. ;-(
>
> Regards,
> Xiaofan
>

I can manually install the package and now I can compile pk2 and pyk
again. However my system is really broken (very slow now) and I will
reinstall the whole system today.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@030432 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> I can manually install the package and now I can compile pk2 and pyk
> again. However my system is really broken (very slow now) and I will
> reinstall the whole system today.

I understand the need to just "get a working system", but you may want
to try to figure out why it got slower.

And I definitely understand that a broken machine you need to use to do
work is highly frustrating.

What are you doing when it becomes slowest?  What does "top" show is
eating CPU resources?  Etc.

It's unlikely that it's not "fixable", especially on Unix where
everything's pretty transparent and well-documented...  now it's just a
decision on how much time and effort to put into the "fix".

Having /home separate is EXCELLENT.  Just remember to say NO when your
distro installer asks if you want to FORMAT it, if you do a reinstall!
And of course, copy any "stuff" you might have created outside of /home
into there before you start wiping things.

Okay, now time for the soap-box speech that you probably knew was coming:

Where's your system backups?

No backups, more pain...

Stepping down off the system administration podium now... (GRIN).

Anyway, since you'll probably do it: Good luck with the re-install!

If you were happy with Ubuntu, you might consider using "regular"
Debian... it's more stable, there's more structure around releases and
quality control, and if you aren't looking for cutting-edge new
software, it works great.

Great for servers, a little old/slightly painful for desktops, perhaps.

Nate

2005\12\16@055751 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Nate Duehr <@spam@nateKILLspamspamnatetech.com> wrote:
>
> Anyway, since you'll probably do it: Good luck with the re-install!
>
> If you were happy with Ubuntu, you might consider using "regular"
> Debian... it's more stable, there's more structure around releases and
> quality control, and if you aren't looking for cutting-edge new
> software, it works great.

I did the fresh installation. The first time it stopped at apt configuration
(25%) for about 20min because my network connection was down. I
fixed the network connection and then did the second reinstallation.
It stopped at 85% of base installation for a long time. Ctrl+Alt+Del
and seems it recovered. This is definitely less smooth than Ubuntu 5.04.

Anyway, I installed some essential buid package: build-essential,
libusb/libusb-devel and now I can compile C based pk2 for PICkit 2.

To compile Python based pyk, I installed SWIG, no joy, I can no longer
compile the BitPim libusb wrapper. I am not so sure if this libusb problem
or gcc 4 problem or SWIG problem.

It seems Breezy is really bad. I think I have some other probelm
as well. I may want to switch back to Hoary (5.04) or other distribution
(regular Debian?? FC4?? or maybe others??) after some more tries.

I am using a AMD64 3000+ Desktop with 512M RAM.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@073535 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Xiaofan Chen <KILLspamxiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> It seems Breezy is really bad. I think I have some other probelm
> as well. I may want to switch back to Hoary (5.04) or other distribution
> (regular Debian?? FC4?? or maybe others??) after some more tries.
>
> I am using a AMD64 3000+ Desktop with 512M RAM.

Okay I gave up: the fresh installation of Breezy is also not very well.
So I am now typing under Fedora Core 4 after about 1 hour of time.
I installed the 4-CD FC4 with a customized setup (similar to a workstation
setup, not installing any server package). I need to learn a bit
on this new system so I tell myself to be a bit more patient.
Let's see if I can stick with this FC4 for long. If I can not get
it working well enough, I will switch back to Ubuntu 5.04 Hoary.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@083452 by Danny Sauer

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face
Xiaofan wrote regarding '[OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Thu, Dec 15 at 20:33:
> For the past two evenings I was struggling with the upgrade
> of Ubuntu 5.04 Hoary to 5.10 Breezy.
>
> In the first evening, I was downloading about 1G of upgrade
> packages (I have burnt the 5.10 CD already) with the "smart
> dist-upgrade".

So, precisely what did you run to upgrade (apt-get, aptitude,
synaptic, etc)?  Were you in X or not when you did it?  Which
repositories are you using?  Can you outline the steps so we can
figure out what went wrong?  I saw where you were still having
troubles after a reinstall - that to me implies either hardware
prolems or that some old stuff was used with the new (other than
/home) install...  You didn't run out of drive space or have any
other hard drive failures, did you?  Reiserfs will give errors like
the ones you were seeing, too, and which are a real pain to track
down.  Using Reiser?

> I originally hoped that Ubuntu would be better but apparently
> I am wrong.
>
> It seems that people are really having problems with Breezy:
> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/f-94.html

Not to be insulting, but many people don't follow directions, and I
only see two or three upgrade problems up there. ;)
I've personally upgraded 6 machines from Hoary to Breezy, and had one
problem.  The problem?  One machine had a PCMCIA network card and the
packages were on an NFS share.  PCMCIA services were shut down before
the package was upgraded, which doesn't work real well when the
packages are only accessible over the network. :)  That machine's
pretty atypical, though, and it was easy to just pop the 5.10 CD in,
install the PCMCIA utils, and finish the update.

--Danny

2005\12\16@090555 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, Danny Sauer <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspamdannysauer.com> wrote:
>
> So, precisely what did you run to upgrade (apt-get, aptitude,
> synaptic, etc)?  Were you in X or not when you did it?  Which
> repositories are you using?  Can you outline the steps so we can
> figure out what went wrong?

Firstly following the direction I installed ubuntu-desktop. Then I
was using synaptic under X using smart dist-upgrade. Then I
could not go into X and thus I was using apt-get. Then I managed
to go into X. Then I was using apt-get again since synaptic did not
work. After various try, the whole system was up again but quite
slow. Then I found out this kernel-header package was
problematic. Then I made a mistake to force remove it. Then
I need to remove libc6-devel and so all the dev packages were
not working.

I realized that perhaps the dist-upgrade was not really a good idea.
Then I did a fresh installation. I met the typical problems in the ubuntu
forum (apt configuration 25% and the 85% install stop problem)
and I was able to recover. Then I installed some development packages
and found out SWIG no longer works. I then reboot the machine and
found out that there are other problems as well (apt-get was not working).

Altogether I spend the whole day and the previous two evenings with
Breezy. In the evening I gave up and installed Fedora Core 4. One
hours of installation plus another 2 hours of learning, I got it working
with SWIG and the two PICkit 2 libusb application except the hotplugging.
And now I am typing under Fedora Core 4. So far so good. Only found
out that lsusb (usbutils) was not installed so I downloaded the source
tar ball from sourceforge and installed it. Previous experience with
Redhat 5/6/7/8/9 was always bad though but I never took Linux
seriously at that time. It was Ubuntu Hoary which brought me back
to trying out Linux.

>I saw where you were still having
> troubles after a reinstall - that to me implies either hardware
> prolems or that some old stuff was used with the new (other than
> /home) install...  You didn't run out of drive space or have any
> other hard drive failures, did you?  Reiserfs will give errors like
> the ones you were seeing, too, and which are a real pain to track
> down.  Using Reiser?

No I have plenty of space. I was using ext3. It must be some
old stuffs in the way in the dist-upgrade process. However the
failure of the fresh installation made me install FC4.

{Quote hidden}

So much for today. I may want to give Breezy another try later.
Maybe my Hoary experience was too good so that my expection of
Breezy was a bit too high.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@092604 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
I found out one more advantages of Fedora Core for PIC development
under Linux. It seems to me that compiling gputils and sdcc as well
as getting gpsim working is really easy under FC4. Last time I got major
problem to get gpsim working under Ubuntu. Maybe the reason for this is
that the main developers of PIC Linux tools are using Redhat based system.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@094538 by John Nall

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> I found out one more advantages of Fedora Core for PIC development
> under Linux. It seems to me that compiling gputils and sdcc as well
> as getting gpsim working is really easy under FC4. Last time I got major
> problem to get gpsim working under Ubuntu. Maybe the reason for this is
> that the main developers of PIC Linux tools are using Redhat based system.
>  

BTW, anyone installing Fedora Core 4 (FC4) should look at
http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html which is
a really good guide for installation (IMHO).  There is nothing there
which cannot be dug out from other places, but he has pulled all the
pieces together and has them in one document.

2005\12\16@095640 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, John Nall <spamBeGonejwnallspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, anyone installing Fedora Core 4 (FC4) should look at
> http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html which is
> a really good guide for installation (IMHO).  There is nothing there
> which cannot be dug out from other places, but he has pulled all the
> pieces together and has them in one document.
>

Thanks for the link. I was actually following http://www.fedorafaq.org/
after installation. Now that I got the major Linux PIC tools working
and I feel much better now. ;-)

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@100956 by John Nall

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>> > Thanks for the link. I was actually following http://www.fedorafaq.org/
>> after installation. Now that I got the major Linux PIC tools working
>> and I feel much better now. ;-)
>>    

Just to clarify (for someone else who might be following this thread),
the link that I gave (stanton-finley) gives all the steps for installing
things which are not provided by the FC4 download, but which most Linux
people like to have on  their systems.  In particular, it is very
valuable for setting up the various sites for downloading material from.

2005\12\16@101935 by John Nall

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> > Now that I got the major Linux PIC tools working
> and I feel much better now. ;-)
>  
Actually, I think that if I were going to run the PIC tools under Linux
I might choose CentOS over FC4, because it is a more stable system.  FC4
is more bleeding edge.  IMHO.

2005\12\16@103812 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/16/05, John Nall <TakeThisOuTjwnallEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, I think that if I were going to run the PIC tools under Linux
> I might choose CentOS over FC4, because it is a more stable system.  FC4
> is more bleeding edge.  IMHO.
>
Yes I think you are right. However I am only experimenting and I do not
have any mission critical server running here (I do not install any server
components). Therefore I chose FC4. If you want to learn USB, the
kernel developers always ask you to use the bleeding edge kernels
for debugging purpose.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@110403 by Danny Sauer

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face
Xiaofan wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Fri, Dec 16 at 08:08:
> Firstly following the direction I installed ubuntu-desktop. Then I
> was using synaptic under X using smart dist-upgrade.

Oh, maybe that's the problem.  Maybe not.  All of my systems, I've
updated from a terminal session - X was running, but I wasn't logged
in under X / running gnome / etc.  Also, ubuntu-desktop should have
already been installed, no need to update it separately (if it wasn't
already installed - you would want to dist-upgrade and then install
the desktop).  The dist-upgrade command should handle all dependencies
of *everything* and set up the install process itself.  I just changed
the entries in /etc/apt/sources.lst, run apt-get update, then run
apt-get dist-upgrade (maybe with an "apt-get -d dist-upgrade" before
the real dist-upgrade, so everything will be downloaded first).  I
don't trust synaptic - even though it should be just a GUI front-end
for the apt/dkpg toolset. :)  I also maintain a local mirror of the
Ubuntu sources, though, since I have 6 machines running Ubuntu.  It
saves space, and makes upgrades easier...

By the time you feel like trying Ubuntu again, Dapper should be
getting closer to stable.  So you can probably just skip over Breezy
all together. ;)

With regards to the pic tools, there's a package in Gentoo (and in
Ubuntu in the Universe repository) for the gputils, so it's relatively
trivial to get your asembler needs met, at least.  Since I just do
fairly simple things in assembly and program with a pickit1, things
are probably much easier for me than someone who wants to use a high
level language with a debugger and IDE...

> Previous experience with Redhat 5/6/7/8/9 was always bad though but
> I never took Linux seriously at that time.

My last Redhat was 9 (well, I work with RHEL daily, but that's not
really a candidate for home use), except for a few attempts to install
Fedora on PPC.  I should really give Fedora another shot - mostly so I
can have an informed opinion when I'm badmouthing it. ;)

--Danny

2005\12\16@123051 by Wayne Topa

flavicon
face
Xiaofan Chen(RemoveMExiaofancspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com) is reported to have said:
{Quote hidden}

I received 5 Ubuntu V 5.10 CD's a week ago.  Tried the 'Live CD' on
my 1G Linux box and got all kinds of errors about missing files and
then a message about my video card not being compatible.

Then tried it on a 500 Mhz Windows box and got even more errors.
After 20 minutes waiting for the initialization to complete, I
figured that they had a problem with 5.10 and quit.

Note that Knoppix boots on both boxes in a minute or 2.

Wayne

--
If you put garbage in a computer nothing comes out but garbage.  But
this garbage, having passed through a very expensive machine, is
somehow ennobled and none dare criticize it.
_______________________________________________________

2005\12\16@184615 by Shawn Tan

flavicon
face
On Friday 16 December 2005 15:38, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On 12/16/05, John Nall <EraseMEjwnallspamgmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually, I think that if I were going to run the PIC tools under Linux
> > I might choose CentOS over FC4, because it is a more stable system.  FC4
> > is more bleeding edge.  IMHO.
>
> Yes I think you are right. However I am only experimenting and I do not
> have any mission critical server running here (I do not install any server
> components). Therefore I chose FC4. If you want to learn USB, the
> kernel developers always ask you to use the bleeding edge kernels
> for debugging purpose.

since we're in the business of pitching distros, i'd like to put a pitch in
for Slackware.. and staying updated with slackware-current is a breeze..
XiaoFan, if you've not tried, it, you might want to give it a go, since
you're installing a new distro anyway.. if you want to learn RH, use RH.. if
you want to learn Linux, use Slackware.. d:

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\12\16@194810 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/17/05, Danny Sauer <RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamEraseMEdannysauer.com> wrote:
> By the time you feel like trying Ubuntu again, Dapper should be
> getting closer to stable.  So you can probably just skip over Breezy
> all together. ;)

That is possible. It all depends on my Fedora Core 4 experience. I hope
that Dapper will be better. Actually I hope Debian/Ubuntu can somewhat
combine so that they can be an alternative to Redhat and Novell.

> With regards to the pic tools, there's a package in Gentoo (and in
> Ubuntu in the Universe repository) for the gputils, so it's relatively
> trivial to get your asembler needs met, at least.  Since I just do
> fairly simple things in assembly and program with a pickit1, things
> are probably much easier for me than someone who wants to use a high
> level language with a debugger and IDE...

For PIC tools, actually it is better to be in the cutting edge --> to use
CVS source and never the released version. I always compile my own
SDCC/gputils and mostly gpsim. This time on Fedora I used the released
version of gpsim but I think I will switch to CVS version later.

There are not good debugger under Linux. ICD2 debugger is not working
under Linux. As for IDE, I have not tried any. I will install MPLAB/C18/C30
today under Wine since they are useful sometimes.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@200913 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/17/05, Shawn Tan <RemoveMEshawn.tanspam_OUTspamKILLspamaeste.net> wrote:
> since we're in the business of pitching distros, i'd like to put a pitch in
> for Slackware.. and staying updated with slackware-current is a breeze..
> XiaoFan, if you've not tried, it, you might want to give it a go, since
> you're installing a new distro anyway.. if you want to learn RH, use RH.. if
> you want to learn Linux, use Slackware.. d:

I guess I am not that experienced in Linux to use Slackware or Gentoo.
My first Linux distribution was actually Slackware 3.x (with 2.0.x kernel).
I tried many distributions before settling to Ubuntu 5.04 early this year when
I restarted my Linux experiment after three years gap. Slackware was one
of them and I do not think it is for me. Take note I do not even install
any server components.

I actually want to try FreeBSD later when I buy the second hard disk.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\16@204051 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/17/05, Xiaofan Chen <RemoveMExiaofancTakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are not good debugger under Linux. ICD2 debugger is not working
> under Linux. As for IDE, I have not tried any. I will install MPLAB/C18/C30
> today under Wine since they are useful sometimes.
>
With the latest Wine/Winetools and MPLAB 7.30/C18 3.0 studnet edition/C30
2.0 student version, it becomes trival to install Wine and MPLAB/C18/C30.
Guess I should withdraw the mini-howto I write.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\17@080402 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:09:12AM +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On 12/17/05, Shawn Tan <EraseMEshawn.tanspamspamspamBeGoneaeste.net> wrote:
> > since we're in the business of pitching distros, i'd like to put a pitch in
> > for Slackware.. and staying updated with slackware-current is a breeze..

The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't a Slackware
package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all of my machines from
Slackware to one Debian variant or another precisely because of package management.

> > XiaoFan, if you've not tried, it, you might want to give it a go, since
> > you're installing a new distro anyway.. if you want to learn RH, use RH.. if
> > you want to learn Linux, use Slackware.. d:
>
> I guess I am not that experienced in Linux to use Slackware or Gentoo.

I agree with that accessment. Ubuntu (which is a Debian variant) is a good choice.

> My first Linux distribution was actually Slackware 3.x (with 2.0.x kernel).

Achient.

> I tried many distributions before settling to Ubuntu 5.04 early this year when
> I restarted my Linux experiment after three years gap. Slackware was one
> of them and I do not think it is for me. Take note I do not even install
> any server components.

No matter. The point is that with apt, it's trivially easy to do so if you
ever wanted to.

>
> I actually want to try FreeBSD later when I buy the second hard disk.

If you're ready to tackle FreeBSD, then Gentoo, whose emerge system is based on
the BSD ports model, isn't out of reach.

BAJ

2005\12\17@103559 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
Byron wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Sat, Dec 17 at 07:12:
> The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't
> a Slackware package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all
> of my machines from Slackware to one Debian variant or another
> precisely because of package management.

You can use makepkg to create a Slackware package from the current
directory's contents, and rpm2targz to create packages from rpms.  For
the first choice, you're probably installing from a
configure/make/make install-type source distro.  You just do
make DESTDIR=/tmp/softwarepackage install and it'll treat
/tmp/softwarepackage as the root, respecting any of the --prefix,
--mandir, etc args you passed to ./configure.  You then run makepkg on
/tmp/softwarepackage, and you get a nice little package you can
install and manage with pkgtool.

It seems like checkinstall can make slackware packages, too, but I've
only used it to make RPMs.  It's all kinds of helpful on RPM-based
systems.

> If you're ready to tackle FreeBSD, then Gentoo, whose emerge system
> is based on the BSD ports model, isn't out of reach.

Yup, emerge rocks.  Gentoo could use a little better qality control on
what they mark as "stable" and not, but otherwise it's a neat little
system.  Look for info on a "stage 3" install, Xiofan, and see if you
can find the 2005.1 release with the 0.2 version of the installer (I
think the CD's called "installercd" or something like that) - there's
a half-decent graphical installer now, and you can install binary
packages, replacing them with built-from-source as needed. :)

--Danny

2005\12\17@140628 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/17/05, Byron A Jeff <RemoveMEbyronKILLspamspamcc.gatech.edu> wrote:
> No matter. The point is that with apt, it's trivially easy to do so if you
> ever wanted to.

I like apt/synaptic. But the dist-upgrade is a disaster for me. Breezy is
another so I just switched to FC4. Maybe I will give next version of
Ubuntu or Debian a try when I got the chance. Now FC4 looks fine
to me and yum/yumex are comparable to apt/synaptic.

Today I was updating the FC4 box, the total updates are about 600M
even though I uninstalled OpenOffice and TeTex to reduce the
download  size (if not it is about 800M).

Yesterday and today, I compiled some PIC related package (sdcc,
gputils, pikdev, piklab, lplab, pk2, pyk, usb_pickit, gpsim, etc) with
success but failed for to compile Ktechlab and yapide.
It is strange that most of the IDE are KDE based.

> >
> > I actually want to try FreeBSD later when I buy the second hard disk.
>
> If you're ready to tackle FreeBSD, then Gentoo, whose emerge system is based on
> the BSD ports model, isn't out of reach.
>

So I guess FreeBSD is not easy. Anyway it is only a plan.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\17@155814 by Peter

picon face

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:09:12AM +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>> On 12/17/05, Shawn Tan <shawn.tanSTOPspamspamspam_OUTaeste.net> wrote:
>>> since we're in the business of pitching distros, i'd like to put a pitch in
>>> for Slackware.. and staying updated with slackware-current is a breeze..
>
> The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't a Slackware
> package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all of my machines from
> Slackware to one Debian variant or another precisely because of package management.

I beg to disagree. I was in 'dependency hell' with Linux exactly once,
and that was with Debian. I have previously used Slackware, Suse, Red
Hat, and several flavors of *BSD, and am currently on a hevily modified
Debian base (at least my workstation is). The only time I got bitten was
with Debian.

I think that you can get caught in dependency hell with any
distribution. The only one that can be untangled relatively easily is
the .tar.gz package model aided by a base of static-compiled essential
binaries.

Peter

2005\12\17@183201 by Shawn Tan

flavicon
face
On Saturday 17 December 2005 13:04, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't a
> Slackware package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all of my
> machines from Slackware to one Debian variant or another precisely because
> of package management.

there's rpm2tgz for example, which i used to install OpenOffice 2.0.. and you
can easily create a slackware package from any source code by using
checkinstall..

> > I guess I am not that experienced in Linux to use Slackware or Gentoo.
> I agree with that accessment. Ubuntu (which is a Debian variant) is a good
> choice.

(not flaming ubuntu, i can appreciate it, but it wasn't for me) just relating
some personal experience, but the reason i gave up on it was because i found
it difficult to use.. (shock!! horror!!) a standard CD install of ubuntu
doesn't give you development tools (for example).. as a developer, i find
that a big minus point (although it's probably okay for normal desktop use)..

then installing extra packages from the central repository was difficult as
well.. although i can understand the logic behind breaking up a package into
multiple smaller packages (lib, bin, docs for example), it just seemed to me
that it meant installing 2x more packages to get things working..

back to my story.. then, trying to install developer packages, i had some
trouble figuring out which packages to install.. after figuring it out, and
installing it, it didn't seem to create some necessary symlinks.. so, i had
to manually link say gcc-3.4 to gcc.. (i must have done something wrong but i
had no idea what)..

> > My first Linux distribution was actually Slackware 3.x (with 2.0.x
> > kernel).

so was mine (brings back memories)!! took me a week just to get the video
working for X.. another week for the sound and other bits!! hehe... scared me
away from Linux for a while..

> No matter. The point is that with apt, it's trivially easy to do so if you
> ever wanted to.

(i don't think that apt is actually that easy to get into.. if you can hack
apt, you should have no problems using any other package manager..)

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\12\17@184157 by Wayne Topa
flavicon
face
Xiaofan Chen(spamBeGonexiaofancSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com) is reported to have said:

> With the latest Wine/Winetools and MPLAB 7.30/C18 3.0 studnet edition/C30
> 2.0 student version, it becomes trival to install Wine and MPLAB/C18/C30.
> Guess I should withdraw the mini-howto I write.

If it's no too much trouble, what is/ar the version numbers of the
"latest Wine/Winetools"?

I still can't get MPLAB 7.30 to work on wine here.

Wayne
--
It's not a bug; it's an undocumented feature.
_______________________________________________________

2005\12\17@190006 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/18/05, Wayne Topa <KILLspamlinuxonespamBeGonespamintergate.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen(EraseMExiaofancspamEraseMEgmail.com) is reported to have said:
>
> > With the latest Wine/Winetools and MPLAB 7.30/C18 3.0 studnet edition/C30
> > 2.0 student version, it becomes trival to install Wine and MPLAB/C18/C30.
> > Guess I should withdraw the mini-howto I write.
>
> If it's no too much trouble, what is/ar the version numbers of the
> "latest Wine/Winetools"?
>
> I still can't get MPLAB 7.30 to work on wine here.
>
> Wayne
> --

The IDE itself is not working. However the software components are really
working. The hardware components are not working.

The latest Wine/Winetools are here:
http://www.winehq.com/site/download
Winetools are really good.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\17@191219 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/18/05, Peter <@spam@plp@spam@spamspam_OUTactcom.co.il> wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> > The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't a Slackware
> > package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all of my machines from
> > Slackware to one Debian variant or another precisely because of package management.
>
> I beg to disagree. I was in 'dependency hell' with Linux exactly once,
> and that was with Debian. I have previously used Slackware, Suse, Red
> Hat, and several flavors of *BSD, and am currently on a hevily modified
> Debian base (at least my workstation is). The only time I got bitten was
> with Debian.
>
> I think that you can get caught in dependency hell with any
> distribution. The only one that can be untangled relatively easily is
> the .tar.gz package model aided by a base of static-compiled essential
> binaries.
>

I think the dependency hell problem exists in the major Linux versions.
And I agree with Peter that Debian (I was using Ubuntu for more than
half a year) is paticularly strange. To remove some obscure packages
I need to remove some other packages as well.

Debian is good to have a large pool of packages but somewhat the
dependency problem is more severe.

I think it would be nice to go back to the carbon-copy install
days (DOS?) now that harddisk is bigger and cheaper.

It is said that carbon-copy method will be the preferred method of
deploying software in the Windows world once .Net is really kicking in.

The problem with Slackware for me is actually that it is no longer a
popular distribution. As I need to search for solutions of various problems
I'd better stick to popular distributions and normally the latest distributions.
That is why I chose Ubuntu and now choose FC4.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\17@234839 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Peter wrote:

>> The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't a
>> Slackware
>> package isn't easy. I've in fact switched virtually all of my machines
>> from
>> Slackware to one Debian variant or another precisely because of
>> package management.
>
>
> I beg to disagree. I was in 'dependency hell' with Linux exactly once,
> and that was with Debian. I have previously used Slackware, Suse, Red
> Hat, and several flavors of *BSD, and am currently on a hevily modified
> Debian base (at least my workstation is). The only time I got bitten was
> with Debian.

Were you using Debian STABLE or something else?

Almost every story I hear about this always ends up leaving out that the
person was running TESTING or UNSTABLE, which as their names actually
state -- are not going to be without problems.

The other common story is that the person was using non-Debian packages.

If you stick with STABLE and Debian-supplied packages, it's quite rare
to have any dependency issues with any of the released packages.

Additionally, since it's a community-created distro, and you get it for
free, did you take the time to document exactly what you did that caused
the problem, and turn in a bugreport at bugs.debian.org?

That way if there really is a problem, at least a workaround might be
found and others might avoid the same problem you tripped over.

Nate

2005\12\18@000720 by Marc Lavallée

flavicon
face
Le 17 Décembre 2005 19:00, Xiaofan Chen a écrit :
> > If it's no too much trouble, what is/ar the version numbers of the
> > "latest Wine/Winetools"?
> >
> > I still can't get MPLAB 7.30 to work on wine here.
> >
> > Wayne
> > --
>
> The IDE itself is not working. However the software components are really
> working. The hardware components are not working.

I installed the IDE (MPLAB 7.30 with wine 0.9.3 and winetools 3.0.9 on Debian testing). There was one error message at the very end of the installation process (I choosed the default installation). It seems to work, but since I never used MPLAB, I can't tell yet if something is not working properly.
--
Marc

2005\12\18@002055 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/18/05, Nate Duehr <spamBeGonenatespamKILLspamnatetech.com> wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> > I beg to disagree. I was in 'dependency hell' with Linux exactly once,
> > and that was with Debian. I have previously used Slackware, Suse, Red
> > Hat, and several flavors of *BSD, and am currently on a hevily modified
> > Debian base (at least my workstation is). The only time I got bitten was
> > with Debian.
>
> Were you using Debian STABLE or something else?

I guess Ubuntu is kind of Debian Testing but maybe I am wrong. I think
Ubuntu got its popularty because the late release of Sarge.

> Almost every story I hear about this always ends up leaving out that the
> person was running TESTING or UNSTABLE, which as their names actually
> state -- are not going to be without problems.

> The other common story is that the person was using non-Debian packages.

> If you stick with STABLE and Debian-supplied packages, it's quite rare
> to have any dependency issues with any of the released packages.

Maybe Debian Sarge changed a bit my impression of Debian but Debian
Stable was almost equivalent Debian "Ancient" to me before Sarge. It
could be okay or even preferred as a server platform but not a personal
workstation, at least not for PIC development on Linux.

Maybe the official Debian packages will cause less problems but Debian
has large pool of packages, eg, something like Ubuntu Universe.
Without these packages, Debian lost its prime attractiveness to me.

Still I am not that experienced in Linux so maybe I am wrong again.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\18@120637 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Wayne Topa wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen(.....xiaofancspam_OUTspamgmail.com) is reported to have said:
>
>
>>With the latest Wine/Winetools and MPLAB 7.30/C18 3.0 studnet edition/C30
>>2.0 student version, it becomes trival to install Wine and MPLAB/C18/C30.
>>Guess I should withdraw the mini-howto I write.
>
>
> If it's no too much trouble, what is/ar the version numbers of the
> "latest Wine/Winetools"?
>
> I still can't get MPLAB 7.30 to work on wine here.

http://www.winehq.com would seem to be the correct place to find that
information, at any time.  ;-)

Nate, TakeThisOuTnate.....spamTakeThisOuTnatetech.com

2005\12\18@154421 by Peter

picon face

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> It is said that carbon-copy method will be the preferred method of
> deploying software in the Windows world once .Net is really kicking in.

I think that your statement made someone somewhere just picked up a
chair ...

> The problem with Slackware for me is actually that it is no longer a
> popular distribution. As I need to search for solutions of various problems
> I'd better stick to popular distributions and normally the latest distributions.
> That is why I chose Ubuntu and now choose FC4.

Slackware has nothing to do with popularity imho. It's a workhorse. Some
work required [tm] to make it do what you need but after that it's a
piece of industrial equipment.

Peter

2005\12\18@160327 by Peter

picon face

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Nate Duehr wrote:

> Were you using Debian STABLE or something else?

Unstable/testing ;-) One can develop only so much fondness for museum
pieces (which Debian stable is nowadays).

> Additionally, since it's a community-created distro, and you get it for free,
> did you take the time to document exactly what you did that caused the
> problem, and turn in a bugreport at bugs.debian.org?
>
> That way if there really is a problem, at least a workaround might be found
> and others might avoid the same problem you tripped over.

I found the workaround, but it is really due to too large a discrepancy
between the codebase of the distribution and the codebase of the add-ons
that I tried to put in. It's the equivalent of putting a modern diesel
into a Ford model T. Some work will be required, and a hacksaw will
have to be used here and there.

Peter

2005\12\19@055623 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/19/05, Peter <TakeThisOuTplpKILLspamspamspamactcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>
> > It is said that carbon-copy method will be the preferred method of
> > deploying software in the Windows world once .Net is really kicking in.
>
> I think that your statement made someone somewhere just picked up a
> chair ...

Why? I think it is good that they know the problem of DLL hell and
try to correct that problem. I hope that Linux could solve the
dependency hell problem as well.

> > The problem with Slackware for me is actually that it is no longer a
> > popular distribution. As I need to search for solutions of various problems
> > I'd better stick to popular distributions and normally the latest distributions.
> > That is why I chose Ubuntu and now choose FC4.
>
> Slackware has nothing to do with popularity imho. It's a workhorse. Some
> work required [tm] to make it do what you need but after that it's a
> piece of industrial equipment.

I only say it is not for not-so-experienced Linux users like me. A workhorse
does not mean it is good for me. There are many workhorses (perhaps
Solaris is one of them) out there.

I understand Linux people take pride in their preferred distributions. But I
think all the major distributions have their strong points. Slackware is
still alive, so it must have some good reasons. But I will stay with the
more popular distributions.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\19@152501 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 18:56 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> I only say it is not for not-so-experienced Linux users like me. A workhorse
> does not mean it is good for me. There are many workhorses (perhaps
> Solaris is one of them) out there.
>
> I understand Linux people take pride in their preferred distributions. But I
> think all the major distributions have their strong points. Slackware is
> still alive, so it must have some good reasons. But I will stay with the
> more popular distributions.

That is exactly the reason I run only redhat based distros: the more
popular it is, the more likely the problem on your screen has been seen
by someone else.

Aside from that, the company I work for runs redhat exclusively, so it's
in my best interest to run the same at home.

At the moment I run FC4 and FC3 at home, and I just recently converted
my desktop machine at work from WinXP to FC4 (shh, don't tell IT...). I
also manage a few Redhat Enterprise machines, and a farm of Redhat 7.3
machines.

There is NO doubt that Redhat can be "prickly", and there's the Linux
way of doing things, and then the Redhat way of doing things... However,
once you get used to the particulars of a certain distro of linux things
get much easier.

Note I'm not saying DON'T try other distros, only that there is some
logic in starting off with one of the most popular, despite the small
amount of "locking in" that learning a Redhat distro will do to you.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\12\19@170021 by Peter

picon face


On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It is a joke on a certain well-known CEO of a well-known software house,
combined with the idea of 'imaging' which caused said software firm to
be at loggerheads with industry, as it frowns on imaging (seeing it as a
way to fraud and illicit copying).

Peter

2005\12\19@170252 by Peter

picon face


On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Whatever is good for you. The trick with Slackware is, that it is one of
the few distributions where an experienced operator can do everything by
hand, overriding scripts. This allows installations in nearly
'impossible' situations. F.ex. Slackware is the only distribution that
can still be installed from floppy disks (shoud you need that).

Peter

2005\12\19@173616 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Mon, Dec 19 at 16:05:
> Whatever is good for you. The trick with Slackware is, that it is one of
> the few distributions where an experienced operator can do everything by
> hand, overriding scripts. This allows installations in nearly
> 'impossible' situations. F.ex. Slackware is the only distribution that
> can still be installed from floppy disks (shoud you need that).

Well, there's lots of "micro distributions" which can be installed
entirely from floppy, and several distros (Debian and SuSE, among
others) work fairly well with the install process started from floppy
and finished with a networked repository.  One could probably argue
that a machine which has no network interface (not even SLIP/PPP over
a null modem) and requires install via floppy is probably of minimal
use.

Then again, large portions of my network are run from machines which
couldn't install anythign but Slack due to the amount of memory
required by the more "mainstream" distros' initial ram disk.  I'm
certain that I remember 32MB RAM being a lot not too long ago, but
most require 64 and don't work well at 32 or work at all at 16...

--Danny

2005\12\20@120022 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:35:58AM -0600, Danny Sauer wrote:
> Byron wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Sat, Dec 17 at 07:12:
> > The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't
> > a Slackware package isn't easy.

I'm aware of both. However it's the dependancy issue that's tough to
manage. rpm and apt are great at fulfilling dependancies.

BAJ

2005\12\20@132205 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
Byron wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Tue, Dec 20 at 11:02:
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:35:58AM -0600, Danny Sauer wrote:
> > Byron wrote regarding 'Re: [OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem' on Sat, Dec 17 at 07:12:
> > > The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't
> > > a Slackware package isn't easy.
>
> I'm aware of both. However it's the dependancy issue that's tough to
> manage. rpm and apt are great at fulfilling dependancies.

RPM is good at warning you about dependencies, but does nothing to
fulfill deps.  That's something I really dislike about RPM - the lack
of network repository support and automatic dependency resolution.
Sure, there are wrappers like yum, and tools like up2date and yast,
but rpm doesn't inherently do anything more than catalog what's
installed and look at a list of things to do in a .spec file.  RPMs
can run scripts at a few more points than .pkg files (which only have
post install scripts), but using pkgtool you still get a list of
packages on the system in /var/log/packages.  I don't find myself
installing a lot of software for which I don't know the dependencies,
but that's just me.

Either way, I've found the dependency *tracking* of both to be their
biggest advantage over .pkg as well as their biggest drawback (more so
with RPM than with apt or portage).  I've had far fewer problems with
./configure determining what's installed than I have had with any
package manager. :)

I should qualify this by noting that I tend to run pretty static
systems, and don't remove things often.  Somone who's constantly
trying to stay on the bleeding edge or often installs and then removes
packages may benefit more from a different package manager (like
portage or apt - rpm isn't very good at cleaning up after removals).
Then again, someone with needs like that probably woulnd't be on Slack
anyway. ;)

--Danny

2005\12\20@143158 by Peter

picon face


>>> The problem with Slackware is that managing any software that isn't
>>> a Slackware package isn't easy.
>
> I'm aware of both. However it's the dependancy issue that's tough to
> manage. rpm and apt are great at fulfilling dependancies.

Dependencies are a problem. But, fyi, mc (Midnight Commander) can open
any alien package format and you can copy out from inside the (ad hoc)
decompressed package, so it works great. For example you can enter a rpm
package, then enter the cpio archive inside it, read a README or
whatever, and copy out one single file from the package (or any
combination, including all), without really installing it. This works on
any system (subject to mc being compiled with the right libraries -
usually it is so, including on Slackware). Note that you still need the
disk space (mc transparently unpacks the package somewhere in tmp
space).

Peter

2005\12\22@191432 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Not to continue the thread, but I can't remember if anyone posted this
link here... kinda fun little "test" to see which Linux might suit you.

They're slowly adding more distros to it, but the "major" players are in
there:

http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

There's other places that are better for more in-depth research, of
course -- but someone just starting out might like to be pointed to
something like this.

Nate


'[OT] Ubuntu 5.04->5.10 upgrade problem'
2006\01\01@043321 by Xiaofan Chen
face picon face
Update on Jan-1-2006:

I think my previous installation disk got some problems and I have since
downloaded the Ubuntu 5.10 Breezy Live/Installation DVD and burned it with
the lowest speed of my DVD burner (2x). Today I got the time to install
it on a newly bought hard disk along with FreeBSD 6-RELEASE.

The installation is okay this time. The startup is rather slower than Fedora
Core 4. But the CPU frequency scaling is working under Ubuntu but not FC4.

I have already met my first problem, sudo seems not to work
after first failing, it does not do anything and simply exit. A bit strange.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\01@070613 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/1/06, Xiaofan Chen <RemoveMExiaofancspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have already met my first problem, sudo seems not to work
> after first failing, it does not do anything and simply exit. A bit strange.
>

I reboot to single user mode and enable the root there and change the
/etc/sudoers file so that I can use sudo as a normal user.

Later I know the real reason is that somehow I was kicking out of
the admin group after updating some packages including sudo.
So I add myself to the admin group and changed back the /etc/sudoers file
to its original format. Still I do not know why I was kicking out of the
admin group. I am really a bit scary of the Synaptic update and the
update-manager now.

Anyway I am happy that this time I am able to recover from the error.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\09@213336 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/23/05, Nate Duehr <spamBeGonenate@spam@spamspam_OUTnatetech.com> wrote:
> Not to continue the thread, but I can't remember if anyone posted this
> link here... kinda fun little "test" to see which Linux might suit you.
>
> They're slowly adding more distros to it, but the "major" players are in
> there:
>
> http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
>
> There's other places that are better for more in-depth research, of
> course -- but someone just starting out might like to be pointed to
> something like this.
>
> Nate
>

Thanks for the link.

I took the test and the answer is
"We found the following perfect match(es):

Debian
Ubuntu
SuSE

I am not so sure why Fedora Core 4 is not inside and SuSE is
inside. I only tried a very old version of SuSE before and I felt
it was too big then.

Regards,
Xiaofan

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