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'[OT] Toyota - fly by wire?'
2010\01\27@083206 by alan smith

picon face
Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..

Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?

Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.


     

2010\01\27@084818 by sergio masci

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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, alan smith wrote:

> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?
>
> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.
>

How would that affect power assisted brakes?

Regards
Sergio Masci

2010\01\27@090957 by alan smith

picon face
dunno...but your not killing the engine, just letting it goto idle...?

--- On Wed, 1/27/10, sergio masci <spam_OUTsmplxTakeThisOuTspamallotrope.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\01\27@094305 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why.

Actually my friend's 2007 Toyota used drive-by-wire throttle control too. The recall is not due to new release, it probably a matter of issue created by cost-reduction (A typical MBA thing but a headache for engineers).

Not just Toyota used drive-by-wire technology, Subaru, BMW all used drive-by-wire technology on their vehicles.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: alan smith <.....micro_eng2KILLspamspam.....yahoo.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 8:31:25 AM
Subject: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..

Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?

Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.


     

2010\01\27@094534 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
Electronic throttle control (drive by wire) is currently used in
hybrid and electric vehicles since you can't control the electric
motors via mechanical linkage.

I'm not aware of a consumer vehicle that employs brake by wire, or
steer by wire, though there are a lot of vehicles on the test track
with such technology.  Many vehicles employ assisted braking and
steering with servos for stability and traction control, but even if
the engine loses all power the brakes and steering still work due to
the mechanical/hydraulic linkages.

articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/29/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29
indicates, however, that many, if not most, Toyota models are throttle
by wire.

The recall appears to suggest the the pedal is sticking mechanically,
though, or returning slowly.  Unless they have a servo in the pedal
(so one can 'feel' the road with force feedback) then I would expect
the problem to be a mechanical one.

But I don't know enough about the particular system or this recall to
tell.  As the dealers get instructions on how to repair the problem,
and that information gets out, we'll have a better idea of what the
root cause is, whether mechanical, electrical, or software.

-Adam

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <micro_eng2spamspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote:
> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?
>
> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.
>
>
>
>

2010\01\27@095224 by PICdude

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Quoting alan smith <@spam@micro_eng2KILLspamspamyahoo.com>:

> ...
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an  
> encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.    
> Anyone know if thats true?

Very possible.  Audis have been doing this for some years now (called  
DBW -- drive by wire).


> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the  
>  fuel based on the encoder reading.

The accelerator position sensor controls an active throttle body,  
after which, it's just like any car (TPS, MAF, BAP/MAP, IAT, RPM  
sensors determine how fuel is needed).



2010\01\27@100331 by PICdude

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Quoting Funny NYPD <KILLspamfunnynypdKILLspamspamyahoo.com>:

> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty  
> trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep  
> their mouth shut. Don't know why.

Don't know why they use DBW?  Or don't know why they keep their mouths shut?



2010\01\27@100921 by Walter Banks

picon face


alan smith wrote:

> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?

I am not sure what Toyota is using in the recalled cars but most of cars for the last 6-10 years do not use a mechanical linkage. To get gas mileage up they use fuel injection that is controlled by an engine controller processor. There are many ways that the accelerator
position is measured. (They have tried them all) but at some point it is digitized and fed into engine controller.

Regards,

walter...
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com








2010\01\27@104823 by Vitaliy

face
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PICdude wrote:
>> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty
>> trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep
>> their mouth shut. Don't know why.
>
> Don't know why they use DBW?  Or don't know why they keep their mouths
> shut?

Probably the latter. I think it has to do with the human mistrust of
"computers running things".

Vitaliy

2010\01\27@105901 by Dave Tweed

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sergio masci wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, alan smith wrote:
> > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of
> > the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the
> > brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run
> > away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats
> > really doing it.
>
> How would that affect power assisted brakes?

Vacuum-assisited brakes usually have a reservoir that's good for 1-2 strokes
before it's depleted, even if the engine stops turning. If the engine keeps
turning, even with no fuel (i.e., driven by the wheels), it's a non-issue.
Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power.

But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you
can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.

It bothers me somewhat that they let people operate cars without this sort
of basic knowledge. It leads to making bad decisions in stressful situations.

-- Dave Tweed

2010\01\27@110114 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>or steer by wire,

A number of vehicles have electric power steering, Minis are one that come
to mind immediately.

2010\01\27@110155 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 05:31 -0800, alan smith wrote:
> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?

Most new cars are throttle by wire, it's been like that for years.

> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.

Frankly I don't think that's a very good idea, simply shutting off the
fuel flow can have many unintended consequences (i.e. if the power
steering is mechanical you'll loose that when driving an automatic).

While I can't suggest what the solution is, the "danger" IMHO is a
little overrated. I find it quite disturbing that when this happens
people don't just put the car in neutral (either by column shift for
automatics or just depressing the clutch in a standard). I understand
they are panicking, and the first instinct is to hit the brake, but to
keep doing something that isn't working without doing something that
will work really makes me wonder.

FWIW this has happened to me (not in my current car, which is a Toyota
not covered by the recall) and while "scary", the correct course of
action isn't too hard to do.

TTYL

2010\01\27@110441 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 06:09 -0800, alan smith wrote:
> dunno...but your not killing the engine, just letting it goto idle...?

If the car is standard then most of these concerns aren't there (the
engine will continue to turn, actually braking the car in the process).

If the car is an automatic for most cars the engine won't idle (how
could it, no gas!?). You'll loose power steering (if mechanical, some
are now electric), and power brakes (although you do have a few presses
in reserve in the master cylinder).

Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is
always there too!)

TTYL

2010\01\27@114225 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), "Dave Tweed" <RemoveMEpicTakeThisOuTspamdtweed.com>
said:

> Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power.

Not very many cars have electric brakes. Most are still vacuum. And my
Mustang had brakes run off the power steering pump.

> But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist,
> you
> can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.

No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to
lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take
into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle,
and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off.

Shifting into neutral and letting the engine rev limit is the only
remedy in the Toyota scenario.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2010\01\27@114850 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 16:00 +0000, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> >or steer by wire,
>
> A number of vehicles have electric power steering, Minis are one that come
> to mind immediately.

That probably refers to the power steering pump being driven by an
electric motor instead of the engine (increases fuel economy since you
can size the pump much smaller and only run it at full when needed), the
Mazda 3 has that (it sounds weird).

I don't know of a "normal" car at the moment that's on the road that is
true steer by wire (no mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and
the rack), but I've been wrong before. I have heard it is coming though.

While throttle by wire is "ok" in my mind, brake by wire and steering by
wire is something I'm much less comfortable with.

TTYL

2010\01\27@115229 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 10:59 -0500, Dave Tweed wrote:
> But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you
> can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.

Not even close, have you tried it?

Without the power assist, on every car I've had, all the force I could
put on the pedal (I'm talking about my butt lifting from the seat) got
the car to stop, but NOWHERE near as fast as with power assist, never
mind getting ANYWHERE near lock up (I never tried it on sheer ice).

It is fail safe, but the braking performance is severely degraded.

Steering at speed isn't too bad without assist, at slow speed (i.e.
parking) though it's very difficult on most modern cars.

TTYL

2010\01\27@121118 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
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Bob Blick wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), Dave Tweed said:
> > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist,
> > you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.
>
> No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to
> lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take
> into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle,
> and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off.

I didn't mean to imply that you could overpower the force of a WOT
(wide-open-throttle) engine, and that wasn't the context of the original
question anyway.

If you can't lock the wheels with an idling/disengaged engine, then you've
got a pretty wimpy braking system. I'd be worried about a car like that.

-- Dave Tweed

2010\01\27@123245 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
It appears the affected products are from CTS Corp:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/burns-on-business/2010/01/toyota-supplier-cts-corp-at-center-of-sales-halt.html

http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/pedal/modules.htm

And already their stock has dropped 13%:

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTS

This is going to cost Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars, and
guess who's going to foot the bill?

-Adam

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <spamBeGonemicro_eng2spamBeGonespamyahoo.com> wrote:
> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?
>
> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.
>
>
>
>

2010\01\27@124126 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:11:18 -0500 (EST), "Dave Tweed" <TakeThisOuTpicEraseMEspamspam_OUTdtweed.com>
said:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), Dave Tweed said:
> > > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist,
> > > you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.
> >
> > No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to
> > lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take
> > into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle,
> > and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that you could overpower the force of a WOT
> (wide-open-throttle) engine, and that wasn't the context of the original
> question anyway.
>
> If you can't lock the wheels with an idling/disengaged engine, then
> you've
> got a pretty wimpy braking system. I'd be worried about a car like that.

No, I was responding to your sentence "Even without power assist, you
can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force."

Your intent may have been different, but you definitely implied that one
could lock the brakes without power assist.

I still disagree. Try it sometime. In any car. You will not be able to
lock the brakes when you lose the power assist.

A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car
into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild.

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

2010\01\27@131755 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Don't know why they keep quiet for the new (Drive by wire) technology, which, at the time, all automotive vendors were afraid of (reliability, cost, ...).

Maybe the on-highway trucks are the "first test mouse in the lab". It did show up serious reliability issue at the first a few years.

If the auto industry really studied the lessons learned from the "first test mouse", it should be able to avoid what has happened to Toyotas.

BTW, pre-2009 Toyota vehicles (I knew Toyota has started using drive-by-wire on all Corollas since model year 2007) seems not in the recall list.

On volume case, affected new trucks are much less than automotive. So it probably didn't take much public attention (e.g. a few thousands new trucks vs. a few millions new autos).

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: PICdude <RemoveMEpicdude3spamTakeThisOuTnarwani.org>
To: piclistEraseMEspam.....mit.edu
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 10:02:48 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Quoting Funny NYPD <EraseMEfunnynypdspamyahoo.com>:

> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty  
> trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep  
> their mouth shut. Don't know why.

Don't know why they use DBW?  Or don't know why they keep their mouths shut?



2010\01\27@132039 by PICdude

flavicon
face
Quoting Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgrafEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com>:

> Without the power assist, on every car I've had, all the force I could
> put on the pedal (I'm talking about my butt lifting from the seat) got
> the car to stop, but NOWHERE near as fast as with power assist, never
> mind getting ANYWHERE near lock up (I never tried it on sheer ice).
>

This depends on the vehicle's specific bore master cylinder (and  
brake-caliper pistons) used.  On my Fox Mustang for example, I made  
the braking system manual -- by using a different-bore  
master-cylinder.  This increased the pedal stroke considerably, but  
the pedal force is less than with the stock MC un-powered.

Yes, I know this doesn't make a power-assisted braking system work  
without power, but the results will vary from car-to-car.  On some  
cars it may be next to impossible for an average human to get the  
vehicle to stop.  And total vehicle weight will affect this also.

FWIW, many cars nowadays don't use vacuum assist, but get the assist  
power from the power-steering pump/fluid.  Ford for example calls this  
hydro-boost.

Cheers,
-Neil.



2010\01\27@133008 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Does CTS only supply parts to Toyota?
If every auto manufacturer uses same/similiar parts from CTS, this may crash the part of/whole (maybe?)industry.

This will definitely give other drive-by-wire manufacturer a good oppotunity. I knew Subaru uses Denso module.

BTW, my friends start to joking, it may be just a cost-reduction spring, which is easy to age, and totally has nothing related to electric.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:32:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

It appears the affected products are from CTS Corp:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/burns-on-business/2010/01/toyota-supplier-cts-corp-at-center-of-sales-halt.html

http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/pedal/modules.htm

And already their stock has dropped 13%:

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTS

This is going to cost Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars, and
guess who's going to foot the bill?

-Adam

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <EraseMEmicro_eng2spamspamspamBeGoneyahoo.com> wrote:
> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage..
>
> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage.  Anyone know if thats true?
>
> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading.  So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.
>
>
>
> -

2010\01\27@144032 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Funny NYPD <RemoveMEfunnynypdKILLspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> Does CTS only supply parts to Toyota?

I doubt it.

> If every auto manufacturer uses same/similiar parts from CTS, this may crash the part of/whole (maybe?)industry.

Each automotive company has a completely different set of internal
specifications, so it's unlikely that the parts would be similar
enough between car manufacturers to cause a problem.  However, the
same CTS engineers might be designing the same flaws into different
products with different specifications, so who knows.

I'm certain that every other car company is asking themselves:

* Do we use CTS
* Are we testing for this specific flaw in our pedals

> This will definitely give other drive-by-wire manufacturer a good oppotunity. I knew Subaru uses Denso module.

I'd appreciate it if you specified what you mean by Drive By Wire.
You keep using that general term in reference to trucks, but you don't
specify whether all three systems (throttle, brake, steering) are
drive by wire, or just a subset.  Also, there might be a difference
between the US and Australia - you guys have land trains.

I have a hard time believing that the trucks on the road no longer
have mechanical steering and brake linkages, but I can certainly see
throttle being electronic.

> BTW, my friends start to joking, it may be just a cost-reduction spring, which is easy to age, and totally has nothing related to electric.

Actually I'm almost certain it is a mechanical problem and not an
electric one.  They specifically say that the pedal doesn't return as
it should.  Given the nature of the plastic parts, I can see it
binding.

2010\01\27@144157 by Richard Prosser

picon face
>From the Toyota website:-

"Frequently Asked Questions for the Sticking Accelerator Pedal Recall

What is the condition that has prompted Toyota to take this action?
In rare instances, there is a possibility that certain accelerator
pedal mechanisms may, mechanically stick in a partially depressed
position or return slowly to the idle position. "

So it looks mechanical.

RP

2010/1/28 Funny NYPD <funnynypdSTOPspamspamspam_OUTyahoo.com>:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2010\01\27@154848 by sergio masci

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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Dave Tweed wrote:

{Quote hidden}

That felt like a personal attack. True I don't know much about cars but I
know enough not to put myself in a position I can't handle. I also know
enough not to assume that things work the way that would be most
efficacious to my immediate needs.

Looking at responses to your post, I see that others share similar doubts
about removing engine power from power assisted brakes.

Friendly Regards
Sergio Masci

2010\01\27@173130 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Dave Tweed <@spam@pic@spam@spamspam_OUTdtweed.com> wrote:
> Vacuum-assisited brakes usually have a reservoir that's good for 1-2 strokes
> before it's depleted, even if the engine stops turning. If the engine keeps
> turning, even with no fuel (i.e., driven by the wheels), it's a non-issue.
> Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power.

It is still an issue unfortunately. Once the belt broke on my Opel
Omega. The power steering went off immediately, but the break still
worked for few strokes as you have mentioned. And the engine was
running, so I thought I could go to the next garage... what a mistake!
I almost made a huge accident, because in a sudden the power went off
from the break pedal and actually even using my full body weight there
was only a very small break power. So actually it would have been
better if the firmware would go to crawling mode when the belt went
off (or otherwise the power assistance brakes).

Tamas


>
> But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you
> can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force.
>
> It bothers me somewhat that they let people operate cars without this sort
> of basic knowledge. It leads to making bad decisions in stressful situations.
>
> -- Dave Tweed
> -

2010\01\27@181634 by Eric Wolf

picon face
>
> A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car
> into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild.
>

Is that necessarily a good idea?  If you pop it into neutral it's
going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it.  Seems
like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the
friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop.  This doesn't seem to
carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while
driving.

2010\01\27@182918 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:15:32 -0600, "Eric Wolf" <spamBeGoneeric.n5ebwspamKILLspamgmail.com>
said:
> >
> > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car
> > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild.
> >
>
> Is that necessarily a good idea?  If you pop it into neutral it's
> going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it.  Seems
> like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the
> friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop.  This doesn't seem to
> carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while
> driving.

Well, mostly we've been talking about how dangerous it is to the person
to lose power steering and power brakes. The danger to the engine should
be secondary.

And since (I believe) all new cars, including the Toyotas, have rev
limiters, it won't blow up the motor right away to be held at full
throttle in neutral. It definitely puts more wear on the engine than
idling(like 10000 times more!) but it won't hurt it for a few minutes. I
saw a guy on TV, drove his Camry with a stuck throttle a few miles to
the dealership, alternating between drive and neutral. I bet it did way
more damage to the transmission than the engine!

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

2010\01\27@183635 by Roger Kadau

picon face
A lot of the cars today only turn on and off by the key FOB. Some of them
have to have the button held down for (3) seconds for the car to shut down.
The problem is, it isn't universal, and each manufacturer follows a
different protocol. So, if you're in a car you are not familiar with, you
may not know how to shut it down quickly.

Roger

>Seems like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the
>friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop.

2010\01\27@191510 by Richard Prosser

picon face
With some cars, removing the key will lock the steering. Most require
the key to be removed as well, but removing the key can become
"automatic" when turning the motor off so even with this protection
you can have a problem.

RP

2010/1/28 Eric Wolf <.....eric.n5ebwspam_OUTspamgmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\01\27@193933 by Eric Wolf

picon face
Figures...take something completely fool proof and throw
"fifty-eleven" complications into it.  I remember growing up, for
whatever that's worth, that the easiest way to disable the motion of
the car was sever the ignition to make it cut off, and I know there
are several people who still think that is the best way.  I know it
was likely a decision to reduce the risk of theft of the vehicle,
reduce the gauge of the ignition wire to save on a few pounds and
couple of cents in the manufacturing process, but I have to wonder if
we're approaching a diminishing return......I'm all for drive by wire,
and I absolutely love it in our Mazda, but it might be a good idea for
a cut and dry solution to surface.  After all, our car's will break
when we least expect them to, or want them to, but we're running out
of ways to do it deliberately!

> With some cars, removing the key will lock the steering. Most require
> the key to be removed as well, but removing the key can become
> "automatic" when turning the motor off so even with this protection
> you can have a problem.
>
> RP

2010\01\28@060311 by Robert Soubie

flavicon
face
Le 27/01/2010 17:03, Herbert Graf a écrit :
> Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is
> always there too!)

And as an old-timer, you could even add a crank!

Are you seriously implying that standard is an improvement over
automatic? I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans
(with little success) of just the opposite!

Robert

--
Éditions de l'Âge d'Or - Stanley G. Weinbaum
http://www.lulu.com/robert_soubie

2010\01\28@072200 by Peter

picon face
Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks
> used this technology for decades
> already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why.

Actually, heavy duty equipment (and boats!) have been using hydraulic steering
transmissions and hydraulic assisted steering (often both) for at least 100
years. This is needed on account of the huge steering forces. Still they all
have manual control if the servo power (diesel driven hydraulic pump or other)
fails. Air assisted braking goes back to the steam age in rail systems, and is
still in use. Airplanes have been using hydraulic manual remote servo systems
with power assist for many years, and they still do that. These things are
hardly new and surprising in as far as working safe solutions are concerned.

MBAs being allowed by the law, engineers and their own lawyers to save $100 per
unit on a $15,000+ car, destroying the good name of the brand built up in 50
years in just one model year, putting people on the street in danger, and
keeping their jobs in despite of that, that is new.

 Peter


2010\01\28@073929 by Walter Banks

picon face


Eric Wolf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

To turn the key off you will lock the steering column on most cars
in North America. While moving that would not be good.

BTW Toyota's accelerator lockup type problem has happened
on other cars two of which I have had personal knowledge.

Audi in the late 80's had a very interesting software problem in
an engine control. They had two control loops one related to
using the accelerator as a set point and a second related to
maintaining a smooth idle.

Shift into gear after a cold start in a MA winter and step on
the brake to keep the car from moving while the garage door is
rising. The engine with the extra load slows and the idle loop
adds power the driver (my sister in law) adds brake until
engine idle overcomes the rough running engine. Car 1 garage
door 0.

I had one of the first 100 Datsun 240Z's back in the days
when that was kind of fun. It was a service monster (but
a fun monster) Most of the engine computing was done
with dash pots, airflow and pressure differentials. In the first
couple months It twice locked up the engine at at full
throttle. It was a standard that you could turn the key
off. The first time happened as I pulled out from a light to a road
that led to a highway, buried the tach remembered key
before clutch. Most what I remember was the amount
of engine noise and acceleration you could get out of first
gear.. The second time was less dramatic I was on a highway
already and was a lot more prepared.


Regards,

Walter..
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com

2010\01\28@082331 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 17:15 -0600, Eric Wolf wrote:
> >
> > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car
> > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild.
> >
>
> Is that necessarily a good idea?  

Yes.

> If you pop it into neutral it's
> going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it.  

So what? All engine management computers have redline throttling (also
referred to as the "governor"), they make sure the max RPM you can get
under power is at or below red line.

Try it some time, put the car into neutral and floor it, depending on
the manu it will either go to almost redline, or if you're stopped it'll
go to some lesser value (Chrysler cars usually only go to 4000rpm when
out of gear). Some cars sound funny when they hit the governor (they
oscillate the RPM a little).

> Seems
> like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the
> friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop.  

That would be true for a car with a manual transmission, except of
course that you loose ABS, possibly power steering (if it's electrically
driven), and depending on the design of the car your steering column
will lock up (some cars don't have ACC between OFF and ON), that is NOT
a good thing.

> This doesn't seem to
> carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while
> driving.

Aside from what I mentioned above, if you're talking about an automatic
transmission car you will also loose brake assist after the reserve is
gone.

Popping into neutral is by far the safest course of action. The car will
rev to red line, but aside from that you will maintain full control of
the car. Once you get stopped safely you can then shut the engine off.

TTYL

2010\01\28@083119 by Herbert Graf

picon face

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 12:02 +0100, Robert Soubie wrote:
> Le 27/01/2010 17:03, Herbert Graf a écrit :
> > Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is
> > always there too!)
>
> And as an old-timer, you could even add a crank!
>
> Are you seriously implying that standard is an improvement over
> automatic?

To me, yes, it is. What benefit is an automatic to you? It's much more
complicated (means more expensive to buy and eventually fix).

Once you're used to standard you don't "notice" having to shift (even in
stop and go traffic it doesn't bug me, and I've been in the worst
traffic England can throw at you).

I suppose it's harder to sip a cup of coffee or tea when driving stick,
I consider that a good thing. :)

The benefit to me for standard is enjoyment of driving. Driving stick
just "feels" more engaged. I know many people aren't interested in that.
I personally love driving, and standard makes it that much more
enjoyable.

I learned on an automatic and was very vary of going to standard. But I
really wanted to, so my second car was stick and I don't plan on ever
going back (despite stick limiting my vehicle choices quite a bit here
in Canada).

> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans
> (with little success) of just the opposite!

Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives
stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I
rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want!

TTYL

2010\01\28@085548 by Peter

picon face
More fun with 'automatic' systems and fly by wire car systems:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/kamikaze_prius/

The problem is hardly new, complexity lowers the MTBF of systems and MBAs lower
the bar, ignoring known safe control solutions for cost reasons. Heck, even the
Eagle (Apollo moon landing module) had software bugs. As to skimping on a $5
plastic linkage in a $15,000 car, that looks very much like an MBA who needs to
be looking for another career. I doubt whether an engineer in his sane mind
would allow such a device.

 Peter


2010\01\28@092101 by sergio masci

flavicon
face


On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Walter Banks wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Actually (credit where it's due) the only car I've ever driven where
turning the engine off did not lock the steering wheel (you had to press
and hold in a button under the key and then pull the key out for it to
lock) was a Toyota.

Regards
Sergio Masci

2010\01\28@095154 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Herbert Graf ha scritto:
>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans
>> (with little success) of just the opposite!
>
> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives
> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I
> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want!


I agree :)

I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end.

--

Ciao, Dario
--
Cyberdyne

2010\01\28@102219 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Wife, at age 65 asked for an automatic (she can handle a gear drive just
fine), we opted for automatic with a big engine that gets up an goes
when needed and loafs at high highway speeds with great mileage. The
Bronco has overdrive automatic, I wouldn't have anything other than
automatic when the going gets rough. In 4WD when blasting through deep
snow, in low range (transfer case), where you may go from 50 mph with
the tranny in OD to a crawl in 1st gear and back 50 mph in 300 ft (100
m), with wrestling the steering wheel, who has time and hands to wrestle
a gearshift.

Dario Greggio wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@104136 by enkitec

picon face
Dario Greggio wrote:
> I agree :)
>
> I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end.
>
>  
 
   Unless you have a new girlfriend...

   Mark Jordan


2010\01\28@110216 by Funny NYPD

picon face
>save $100 per unit on a $15,000+ car,

This number is much less than the per/vehicle (I knew every run of cost reduction should be at least US$1~2K range from a brand new release), but much more than per parts (some time, 5~50cents on one parts saving).

I don't against cost reduction, I against doing the cost reduction after full vehicle release (which is normal in both Truck and Auto industry) and didn't test it (parts level and vehicle level) again. The original parts takes one to three years on all kinds of tests, most of the OEMs never test their cost reduction parts. All they do is a running change, no test.

My trick is: buy new vehicles at the end of the first model year, which get almost all bugs fixed, and the cost reduction modification still didn't kick-in. This seems working on all new vehicles I bought.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Peter <TakeThisOuTplpeter2006.....spamTakeThisOuTyahoo.com>
To: TakeThisOuTpiclistKILLspamspamspammit.edu
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 7:20:32 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks
> used this technology for decades
> already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why.

Actually, heavy duty equipment (and boats!) have been using hydraulic steering
transmissions and hydraulic assisted steering (often both) for at least 100
years. This is needed on account of the huge steering forces. Still they all
have manual control if the servo power (diesel driven hydraulic pump or other)
fails. Air assisted braking goes back to the steam age in rail systems, and is
still in use. Airplanes have been using hydraulic manual remote servo systems
with power assist for many years, and they still do that. These things are
hardly new and surprising in as far as working safe solutions are concerned.

MBAs being allowed by the law, engineers and their own lawyers to save $100 per
unit on a $15,000+ car, destroying the good name of the brand built up in 50
years in just one model year, putting people on the street in danger, and
keeping their jobs in despite of that, that is new.

 Peter


2010\01\28@110227 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Yea, but with the cars for some years having bucket seats and consoles,
that's not the same as a bench seat with your arm around some lovely
female, and she handles the gearshift and you the clutch. After all,
thats what it is all about, coordination, and she knew you well enough
to know which gear you wanted when. :) :) :)  Of course in the mid/late
50's, the Chrysler products had push buttons on the left side gear selector.

.....enkitecspamRemoveMEgmail.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@112719 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
I sat in meetings, where it was discussed, to save an ounce of cast iron
in a big V8 engine weighing over 400 lbs. :) But when you make 40,000
engines in a week, that adds up to 2500 lbs. Possibly part of the
argument was saving in machining costs to remove that extra metal though.

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@113829 by Funny NYPD

picon face
On large OEMs, on-time release is much important than "release it right, maybe a few days late".

In the large companies (fortune 200s) I worked, It is not new that: the MBA managers' "on-time release" philosophy forced the engineer(s) to release a parts or design with fault/"incomplete status" on the project due day, then have it fixed later.

I used to work at a major OEM whose new vehicle has 100% "90-days comeback rate" (back to the dealer to fix all kind of staff), all cost is under warranty, and the MBA managers still claim profit and be proud of what they are doing. It seems all they care is their bonus (tied strictly to "on-time release"), not a heavy duty truck could run into a gas station or have some accident due to the fault decision.

My personally experience at different OEMs tells me 75%~80% of the autos/trucks quality issue should be resolved at the design stage. The engineer who designed those staff should be counted on, and be given enough time and resource to accomplish the job.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Peter <TakeThisOuTplpeter2006spamspamyahoo.com>
To: piclistEraseMEspammit.edu
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 8:54:33 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

More fun with 'automatic' systems and fly by wire car systems:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/kamikaze_prius/

The problem is hardly new, complexity lowers the MTBF of systems and MBAs lower
the bar, ignoring known safe control solutions for cost reasons. Heck, even the
Eagle (Apollo moon landing module) had software bugs. As to skimping on a $5
plastic linkage in a $15,000 car, that looks very much like an MBA who needs to
be looking for another career. I doubt whether an engineer in his sane mind
would allow such a device.

 Peter


2010\01\28@114044 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Dario Greggio <RemoveMEadpm.toEraseMEspamspam_OUTinwind.it>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <@spam@piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Herbert Graf ha scritto:
>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans
>> (with little success) of just the opposite!
>
> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives
> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I
> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want!


I agree :)

I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end.

--

Ciao, Dario
--
Cyberdyne

2010\01\28@122414 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
What standard:
4, 5,6, ?? speed
paddle shift
synchronized, non-synchronized
straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch)
constant variable
13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the
knob, forward/reverse),
reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down

Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks,
twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~)
Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing
roads and the fun begins

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@130230 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Standard shift vs. auto-shift.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenkEraseMEspamwindstream.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

What standard:
4, 5,6, ?? speed
paddle shift
synchronized, non-synchronized
straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch)
constant variable
13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the
knob, forward/reverse),
reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down

Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks,
twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~)
Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing
roads and the fun begins

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@131352 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Here is what the CEO of the parts company says about the issue and recall:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-pedal-maker-says-fix-apf-395647835.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

"Khilnani said the problem was due to pedals that are slow to depress or
release when drivers try to accelerate or slow down. He said the only
cases when the pedals could get stuck was when they were used in
conditions that go "beyond Toyota specifications." Khilnani did not
elaborate what those conditions are."

Basically, "!!! it is not our fault !!!" philosophy is so strong on this particular MBA.

A gas padel "slow to depress", shall I use the gas padel as I did on the brakes?

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Funny NYPD <.....funnynypdRemoveMEspamyahoo.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <.....piclistSTOPspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:01:48 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Standard shift vs. auto-shift.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Carl Denk <cdenkEraseMEspam@spam@windstream.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

What standard:
4, 5,6, ?? speed
paddle shift
synchronized, non-synchronized
straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch)
constant variable
13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the
knob, forward/reverse),
reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down

Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks,
twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~)
Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing
roads and the fun begins

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@131614 by John Ferrell

face
flavicon
face
If the problem is is not mechanical then watch dog timers and closed loop
software should avoid the problem.

I would like to know more about the encoders and sensors used in the
automotive world so I can use them in my own projects.
John Ferrell  W8CCW

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of
justice is no virtue."
-Barry Goldwater
"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."
-Doug Floyd

{Original Message removed}

2010\01\28@132152 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I think that this attitude comes from two things:

1) Sometimes, when things are released late, they never gain
significant market share because others were there first.

2) Good engineers are usually perfectionists. Excellent engineers are
good engineers who have developed the prudence to know when to let a
problem persist in the final product and when to keep working at it.
Managers know that many engineers would never finish improving the
product if the deadlines were not enforced. Again, some balance needs
to be struck here where problems where the probability of occurrence,
frequency of opportunity for occurrence, severity of consequences,
difficulty of finding a solution, general concern for quality, cost of
engineering time, cost of delays are all balanced. Sometimes this
balance is struck in a way which puts too much weight on profit and
too little on human life. That is wrong, but one also cannot ever
develop a product with NO remaining problems.

Sean


On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Funny NYPD <spamBeGonefunnynypd@spam@spamyahoo.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\01\28@132553 by Funny NYPD

picon face
It turns out this is not a new issue to Toyota at all. It was found on 2007, get fixed on 2008. And now it is back again?

"In March of 2007, Toyota started getting reports of gas pedals being
slow to rise after being depressed for acceleration. Engineers fixed
the problem in the Tundra pickup early in 2008.
But troubles
persisted in other models, eventually leading to last week's U.S.
recall and the plans to suspend sales and shut down of six factories
while Toyota tries to fix the problems."
"Toyota said in a statement it will fix or replace the accelerator
pedals for the recalled vehicles to avoid the risk of floor mat
entrapment. The company said it will replace floor mats as well for the
latest recalled vehicles."

By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.) So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good reputation and make high profit with low cost parts.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Funny NYPD <.....funnynypdspamRemoveMEyahoo.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:01:48 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

Standard shift vs. auto-shift.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Carl Denk <EraseMEcdenkRemoveMEspamSTOPspamwindstream.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

What standard:
4, 5,6, ?? speed
paddle shift
synchronized, non-synchronized
straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch)
constant variable
13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the
knob, forward/reverse),
reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down

Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks,
twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~)
Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing
roads and the fun begins

Funny NYPD wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\01\28@133142 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:25:11 -0800 (PST), "Funny NYPD" said:

> By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of
> 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the
> floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am
> on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may
> lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.)
> So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda
> vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and
> nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good
> reputation and make high profit with low cost parts.

I remember when accelerator pedals hinged at the floor. I imagine mats
would be less of a problem that way.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

2010\01\28@134816 by Funny NYPD

picon face
That actually is what eventually lead to this mass recall---An 120MPH Toyota Lexus brand car-accident with gas pedal stuck (Don't remember by a floor Matt or just hold the position by itself). Otherwise, it is still a "everybody-happy day". Business as usual, isn't it?

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Bob Blick <bobblickspamspamftml.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <spam_OUTpiclistspam_OUTspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:31:00 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?


On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:25:11 -0800 (PST), "Funny NYPD" said:

> By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of
> 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the
> floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am
> on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may
> lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.)
> So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda
> vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and
> nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good
> reputation and make high profit with low cost parts.

I remember when accelerator pedals hinged at the floor. I imagine mats
would be less of a problem that way.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

2010\01\28@135208 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Greeting, Sean,
I wish there are more manager as you described and less mass recalls/car-120MPH-crash accidents.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
http://www.AuElectronics.com/products
http://augroups.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Sean Breheny <shb7spam_OUTspamcornell.edu>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:21:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire?

I think that this attitude comes from two things:

1) Sometimes, when things are released late, they never gain
significant market share because others were there first.

2) Good engineers are usually perfectionists. Excellent engineers are
good engineers who have developed the prudence to know when to let a
problem persist in the final product and when to keep working at it.
Managers know that many engineers would never finish improving the
product if the deadlines were not enforced. Again, some balance needs
to be struck here where problems where the probability of occurrence,
frequency of opportunity for occurrence, severity of consequences,
difficulty of finding a solution, general concern for quality, cost of
engineering time, cost of delays are all balanced. Sometimes this
balance is struck in a way which puts too much weight on profit and
too little on human life. That is wrong, but one also cannot ever
develop a product with NO remaining problems.

Sean


On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Funny NYPD <funnynypdspamBeGonespam.....yahoo.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\01\28@192452 by Jake Anderson

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Robert Soubie wrote:
> Le 27/01/2010 17:03, Herbert Graf a écrit :
>  
>> Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is
>> always there too!)
>>    
>
> And as an old-timer, you could even add a crank!
>
> Are you seriously implying that standard is an improvement over
> automatic? I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans
> (with little success) of just the opposite!
>
> Robert
>
>  
I hate driving automatics, I hate how they keep "pushing" all the time,
If I'm braking I don't want the engine to keep pushing me into the car
in front.
I also despise how they change gear at all the wrong times, you want to
just give it a bit of a nudge to get around the lights or something and
it changes gear, start going up a hill and try to maintain speed and
it'll down shift twice, only to rev the guts out of itself just as you
get to the top of the hill anyway.

The only auto I like is a CVT auto, at least then there's some point to it.

I must admit my car has a heavy clutch and I pay a decent price in
stop/start traffic, but that's a rare occurrence for me.

2010\01\28@193519 by Carl Denk

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Sounds like you need a bigger engine to pull the hills in overdrive and
get the good mileage. :)

Jake Anderson wrote:
> start going up a hill and try to maintain speed and
> it'll down shift twice, only to rev the guts out of itself just as you
> get to the top of the hill anyway.
>
>  

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