Post by thread:[OT] Toyota

dunno...but your not killing the engine, just letting it goto idle...? --- On Wed, 1/27/10, sergio masci <spam_OUTsmplxTakeThisOuTallotrope.net> wrote: {Quote hidden}> From: sergio masci <.....smplxKILLspam@spam@allotrope.net> > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistKILLspammit.edu> > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 9:27 AM > > > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, alan smith wrote: > > > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about > the recall and sales stoppage.. > > > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using > an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical > linkage. Anyone know if thats true? > > > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic > metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, > simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel > flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they > figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. > > > > How would that affect power assisted brakes? > > Regards > Sergio Masci > -

Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why. Actually my friend's 2007 Toyota used drive-by-wire throttle control too. The recall is not due to new release, it probably a matter of issue created by cost-reduction (A typical MBA thing but a headache for engineers). Not just Toyota used drive-by-wire technology, Subaru, BMW all used drive-by-wire technology on their vehicles. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: alan smith <.....micro_eng2KILLspam.....yahoo.com> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmit.edu> Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 8:31:25 AM Subject: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it.

Electronic throttle control (drive by wire) is currently used in hybrid and electric vehicles since you can't control the electric motors via mechanical linkage. I'm not aware of a consumer vehicle that employs brake by wire, or steer by wire, though there are a lot of vehicles on the test track with such technology. Many vehicles employ assisted braking and steering with servos for stability and traction control, but even if the engine loses all power the brakes and steering still work due to the mechanical/hydraulic linkages. articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/29/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29 indicates, however, that many, if not most, Toyota models are throttle by wire. The recall appears to suggest the the pedal is sticking mechanically, though, or returning slowly. Unless they have a servo in the pedal (so one can 'feel' the road with force feedback) then I would expect the problem to be a mechanical one. But I don't know enough about the particular system or this recall to tell. As the dealers get instructions on how to repair the problem, and that information gets out, we'll have a better idea of what the root cause is, whether mechanical, electrical, or software. -Adam On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <micro_eng2spam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote: > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. > > > >

alan smith wrote: > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? I am not sure what Toyota is using in the recalled cars but most of cars for the last 6-10 years do not use a mechanical linkage. To get gas mileage up they use fuel injection that is controlled by an engine controller processor. There are many ways that the accelerator position is measured. (They have tried them all) but at some point it is digitized and fed into engine controller. Regards, walter... -- Walter Banks Byte Craft Limited http://www.bytecraft.com

sergio masci wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, alan smith wrote: > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of > > the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the > > brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run > > away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats > > really doing it. > > How would that affect power assisted brakes? Vacuum-assisited brakes usually have a reservoir that's good for 1-2 strokes before it's depleted, even if the engine stops turning. If the engine keeps turning, even with no fuel (i.e., driven by the wheels), it's a non-issue. Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power. But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. It bothers me somewhat that they let people operate cars without this sort of basic knowledge. It leads to making bad decisions in stressful situations. -- Dave Tweed

On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 05:31 -0800, alan smith wrote: > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? Most new cars are throttle by wire, it's been like that for years. > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. Frankly I don't think that's a very good idea, simply shutting off the fuel flow can have many unintended consequences (i.e. if the power steering is mechanical you'll loose that when driving an automatic). While I can't suggest what the solution is, the "danger" IMHO is a little overrated. I find it quite disturbing that when this happens people don't just put the car in neutral (either by column shift for automatics or just depressing the clutch in a standard). I understand they are panicking, and the first instinct is to hit the brake, but to keep doing something that isn't working without doing something that will work really makes me wonder. FWIW this has happened to me (not in my current car, which is a Toyota not covered by the recall) and while "scary", the correct course of action isn't too hard to do. TTYL

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), "Dave Tweed" <RemoveMEpicTakeThisOuTdtweed.com> said: > Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power. Not very many cars have electric brakes. Most are still vacuum. And my Mustang had brakes run off the power steering pump. > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, > you > can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle, and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off. Shifting into neutral and letting the engine rev limit is the only remedy in the Toyota scenario. Cheerful regards, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 16:00 +0000, Alan B. Pearce wrote: > >or steer by wire, > > A number of vehicles have electric power steering, Minis are one that come > to mind immediately. That probably refers to the power steering pump being driven by an electric motor instead of the engine (increases fuel economy since you can size the pump much smaller and only run it at full when needed), the Mazda 3 has that (it sounds weird). I don't know of a "normal" car at the moment that's on the road that is true steer by wire (no mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the rack), but I've been wrong before. I have heard it is coming though. While throttle by wire is "ok" in my mind, brake by wire and steering by wire is something I'm much less comfortable with. TTYL

Bob Blick wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), Dave Tweed said: > > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, > > you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. > > No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to > lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take > into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle, > and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off. I didn't mean to imply that you could overpower the force of a WOT (wide-open-throttle) engine, and that wasn't the context of the original question anyway. If you can't lock the wheels with an idling/disengaged engine, then you've got a pretty wimpy braking system. I'd be worried about a car like that. -- Dave Tweed

It appears the affected products are from CTS Corp: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/burns-on-business/2010/01/toyota-supplier-cts-corp-at-center-of-sales-halt.html http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/pedal/modules.htm And already their stock has dropped 13%: http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTS This is going to cost Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars, and guess who's going to foot the bill? -Adam On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <spamBeGonemicro_eng2spamBeGoneyahoo.com> wrote: > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. > > > >

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:11:18 -0500 (EST), "Dave Tweed" <TakeThisOuTpicEraseMEspam_OUTdtweed.com> said: > Bob Blick wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:59:01 -0500 (EST), Dave Tweed said: > > > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, > > > you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. > > > > No you can't, I've tried to. Disc brakes are pretty much impossible to > > lock without power assist, and rear brakes are pretty small. Now take > > into account brake fade, which happens pretty quickly at full throttle, > > and you have very little braking left, either with engine on or off. > > I didn't mean to imply that you could overpower the force of a WOT > (wide-open-throttle) engine, and that wasn't the context of the original > question anyway. > > If you can't lock the wheels with an idling/disengaged engine, then > you've > got a pretty wimpy braking system. I'd be worried about a car like that. No, I was responding to your sentence "Even without power assist, you can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force." Your intent may have been different, but you definitely implied that one could lock the brakes without power assist. I still disagree. Try it sometime. In any car. You will not be able to lock the brakes when you lose the power assist. A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. Cheers, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

Don't know why they keep quiet for the new (Drive by wire) technology, which, at the time, all automotive vendors were afraid of (reliability, cost, ...). Maybe the on-highway trucks are the "first test mouse in the lab". It did show up serious reliability issue at the first a few years. If the auto industry really studied the lessons learned from the "first test mouse", it should be able to avoid what has happened to Toyotas. BTW, pre-2009 Toyota vehicles (I knew Toyota has started using drive-by-wire on all Corollas since model year 2007) seems not in the recall list. On volume case, affected new trucks are much less than automotive. So it probably didn't take much public attention (e.g. a few thousands new trucks vs. a few millions new autos). Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: PICdude <RemoveMEpicdude3TakeThisOuTnarwani.org> To: piclistEraseME.....mit.edu Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 10:02:48 AM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Quoting Funny NYPD <EraseMEfunnynypdyahoo.com>: > Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty > trucks used this technology for decades already, they just keep > their mouth shut. Don't know why. Don't know why they use DBW? Or don't know why they keep their mouths shut?

Quoting Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgrafEraseMEEraseMEgmail.com>: > Without the power assist, on every car I've had, all the force I could > put on the pedal (I'm talking about my butt lifting from the seat) got > the car to stop, but NOWHERE near as fast as with power assist, never > mind getting ANYWHERE near lock up (I never tried it on sheer ice). > This depends on the vehicle's specific bore master cylinder (and brake-caliper pistons) used. On my Fox Mustang for example, I made the braking system manual -- by using a different-bore master-cylinder. This increased the pedal stroke considerably, but the pedal force is less than with the stock MC un-powered. Yes, I know this doesn't make a power-assisted braking system work without power, but the results will vary from car-to-car. On some cars it may be next to impossible for an average human to get the vehicle to stop. And total vehicle weight will affect this also. FWIW, many cars nowadays don't use vacuum assist, but get the assist power from the power-steering pump/fluid. Ford for example calls this hydro-boost. Cheers, -Neil.

Does CTS only supply parts to Toyota? If every auto manufacturer uses same/similiar parts from CTS, this may crash the part of/whole (maybe?)industry. This will definitely give other drive-by-wire manufacturer a good oppotunity. I knew Subaru uses Denso module. BTW, my friends start to joking, it may be just a cost-reduction spring, which is easy to age, and totally has nothing related to electric. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanspam_OUTKILLspamgmail.com> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:32:03 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? It appears the affected products are from CTS Corp: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/burns-on-business/2010/01/toyota-supplier-cts-corp-at-center-of-sales-halt.html http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/pedal/modules.htm And already their stock has dropped 13%: http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTS This is going to cost Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars, and guess who's going to foot the bill? -Adam On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <EraseMEmicro_eng2spamspamBeGoneyahoo.com> wrote: > Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. > > Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. > > > > -

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Funny NYPD <RemoveMEfunnynypdKILLspamyahoo.com> wrote: > Does CTS only supply parts to Toyota? I doubt it. > If every auto manufacturer uses same/similiar parts from CTS, this may crash the part of/whole (maybe?)industry. Each automotive company has a completely different set of internal specifications, so it's unlikely that the parts would be similar enough between car manufacturers to cause a problem. However, the same CTS engineers might be designing the same flaws into different products with different specifications, so who knows. I'm certain that every other car company is asking themselves: * Do we use CTS * Are we testing for this specific flaw in our pedals > This will definitely give other drive-by-wire manufacturer a good oppotunity. I knew Subaru uses Denso module. I'd appreciate it if you specified what you mean by Drive By Wire. You keep using that general term in reference to trucks, but you don't specify whether all three systems (throttle, brake, steering) are drive by wire, or just a subset. Also, there might be a difference between the US and Australia - you guys have land trains. I have a hard time believing that the trucks on the road no longer have mechanical steering and brake linkages, but I can certainly see throttle being electronic. > BTW, my friends start to joking, it may be just a cost-reduction spring, which is easy to age, and totally has nothing related to electric. Actually I'm almost certain it is a mechanical problem and not an electric one. They specifically say that the pedal doesn't return as it should. Given the nature of the plastic parts, I can see it binding.

>From the Toyota website:- "Frequently Asked Questions for the Sticking Accelerator Pedal Recall What is the condition that has prompted Toyota to take this action? In rare instances, there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position. " So it looks mechanical. RP 2010/1/28 Funny NYPD <funnynypdSTOPspamspam_OUTyahoo.com>: {Quote hidden}> Does CTS only supply parts to Toyota? > If every auto manufacturer uses same/similiar parts from CTS, this may crash the part of/whole (maybe?)industry. > > This will definitely give other drive-by-wire manufacturer a good oppotunity. I knew Subaru uses Denso module. > > BTW, my friends start to joking, it may be just a cost-reduction spring, which is easy to age, and totally has nothing related to electric. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M. Adam Davis <spamBeGonestienmanSTOPspamEraseMEgmail.com> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <KILLspampiclistspamBeGonemit.edu> > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:32:03 PM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > It appears the affected products are from CTS Corp: > > http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/burns-on-business/2010/01/toyota-supplier-cts-corp-at-center-of-sales-halt.html > > http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/pedal/modules.htm > > And already their stock has dropped 13%: > > http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTS > > This is going to cost Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars, and > guess who's going to foot the bill? > > -Adam > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM, alan smith <EraseMEmicro_eng2EraseMEyahoo.com> wrote: >> Driving down the road in my 09 Camrey, listening about the recall and sales stoppage.. >> >> Someplace I heard that they do the accelerator using an encoder..ie..its a fly by wire rather than the mechanical linkage. Anyone know if thats true? >> >> Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats really doing it. >> >> >> >> -

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Dave Tweed wrote: {Quote hidden}> sergio masci wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, alan smith wrote: > > > Likewise, they must be using some sort of electronic metering of > > > the fuel based on the encoder reading. So, simple fix...if the > > > brake is active, shut off the fuel flow...that would stop the run > > > away acceleration until they figure out the firmware bug thats > > > really doing it. > > > > How would that affect power assisted brakes? > > Vacuum-assisited brakes usually have a reservoir that's good for 1-2 strokes > before it's depleted, even if the engine stops turning. If the engine keeps > turning, even with no fuel (i.e., driven by the wheels), it's a non-issue. > Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power. > > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you > can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. > > It bothers me somewhat that they let people operate cars without this sort > of basic knowledge. It leads to making bad decisions in stressful situations. > That felt like a personal attack. True I don't know much about cars but I know enough not to put myself in a position I can't handle. I also know enough not to assume that things work the way that would be most efficacious to my immediate needs. Looking at responses to your post, I see that others share similar doubts about removing engine power from power assisted brakes. Friendly Regards Sergio Masci

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Dave Tweed <@spam@pic@spam@spam_OUTdtweed.com> wrote: > Vacuum-assisited brakes usually have a reservoir that's good for 1-2 strokes > before it's depleted, even if the engine stops turning. If the engine keeps > turning, even with no fuel (i.e., driven by the wheels), it's a non-issue. > Electric-assisted/ABS systems work as long as there's battery power. It is still an issue unfortunately. Once the belt broke on my Opel Omega. The power steering went off immediately, but the break still worked for few strokes as you have mentioned. And the engine was running, so I thought I could go to the next garage... what a mistake! I almost made a huge accident, because in a sudden the power went off from the break pedal and actually even using my full body weight there was only a very small break power. So actually it would have been better if the firmware would go to crawling mode when the belt went off (or otherwise the power assistance brakes). Tamas > > But the braking system is fail-safe anyway. Even without power assist, you > can still lock the brakes, it just takes more pedal force. > > It bothers me somewhat that they let people operate cars without this sort > of basic knowledge. It leads to making bad decisions in stressful situations. > > -- Dave Tweed > -

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:15:32 -0600, "Eric Wolf" <spamBeGoneeric.n5ebwKILLspamgmail.com> said: > > > > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car > > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. > > > > Is that necessarily a good idea? If you pop it into neutral it's > going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it. Seems > like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the > friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop. This doesn't seem to > carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while > driving. Well, mostly we've been talking about how dangerous it is to the person to lose power steering and power brakes. The danger to the engine should be secondary. And since (I believe) all new cars, including the Toyotas, have rev limiters, it won't blow up the motor right away to be held at full throttle in neutral. It definitely puts more wear on the engine than idling(like 10000 times more!) but it won't hurt it for a few minutes. I saw a guy on TV, drove his Camry with a stuck throttle a few miles to the dealership, alternating between drive and neutral. I bet it did way more damage to the transmission than the engine! Cheers, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

With some cars, removing the key will lock the steering. Most require the key to be removed as well, but removing the key can become "automatic" when turning the motor off so even with this protection you can have a problem. RP 2010/1/28 Eric Wolf <.....eric.n5ebwspam_OUTgmail.com>: {Quote hidden}>> >> A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car >> into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. >> > > Is that necessarily a good idea? If you pop it into neutral it's > going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it. Seems > like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the > friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop. This doesn't seem to > carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while > driving. >

Figures...take something completely fool proof and throw "fifty-eleven" complications into it. I remember growing up, for whatever that's worth, that the easiest way to disable the motion of the car was sever the ignition to make it cut off, and I know there are several people who still think that is the best way. I know it was likely a decision to reduce the risk of theft of the vehicle, reduce the gauge of the ignition wire to save on a few pounds and couple of cents in the manufacturing process, but I have to wonder if we're approaching a diminishing return......I'm all for drive by wire, and I absolutely love it in our Mazda, but it might be a good idea for a cut and dry solution to surface. After all, our car's will break when we least expect them to, or want them to, but we're running out of ways to do it deliberately! > With some cars, removing the key will lock the steering. Most require > the key to be removed as well, but removing the key can become > "automatic" when turning the motor off so even with this protection > you can have a problem. > > RP

Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes: > Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks > used this technology for decades > already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why. Actually, heavy duty equipment (and boats!) have been using hydraulic steering transmissions and hydraulic assisted steering (often both) for at least 100 years. This is needed on account of the huge steering forces. Still they all have manual control if the servo power (diesel driven hydraulic pump or other) fails. Air assisted braking goes back to the steam age in rail systems, and is still in use. Airplanes have been using hydraulic manual remote servo systems with power assist for many years, and they still do that. These things are hardly new and surprising in as far as working safe solutions are concerned. MBAs being allowed by the law, engineers and their own lawyers to save $100 per unit on a $15,000+ car, destroying the good name of the brand built up in 50 years in just one model year, putting people on the street in danger, and keeping their jobs in despite of that, that is new. Peter

Eric Wolf wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car > > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. > > > > Is that necessarily a good idea? If you pop it into neutral it's > going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it. Seems > like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the > friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop. This doesn't seem to > carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while > driving. > To turn the key off you will lock the steering column on most cars in North America. While moving that would not be good. BTW Toyota's accelerator lockup type problem has happened on other cars two of which I have had personal knowledge. Audi in the late 80's had a very interesting software problem in an engine control. They had two control loops one related to using the accelerator as a set point and a second related to maintaining a smooth idle. Shift into gear after a cold start in a MA winter and step on the brake to keep the car from moving while the garage door is rising. The engine with the extra load slows and the idle loop adds power the driver (my sister in law) adds brake until engine idle overcomes the rough running engine. Car 1 garage door 0. I had one of the first 100 Datsun 240Z's back in the days when that was kind of fun. It was a service monster (but a fun monster) Most of the engine computing was done with dash pots, airflow and pressure differentials. In the first couple months It twice locked up the engine at at full throttle. It was a standard that you could turn the key off. The first time happened as I pulled out from a light to a road that led to a highway, buried the tach remembered key before clutch. Most what I remember was the amount of engine noise and acceleration you could get out of first gear.. The second time was less dramatic I was on a highway already and was a lot more prepared. Regards, Walter.. -- Walter Banks Byte Craft Limited http://www.bytecraft.com

On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 17:15 -0600, Eric Wolf wrote: > > > > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car > > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. > > > > Is that necessarily a good idea? Yes. > If you pop it into neutral it's > going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it. So what? All engine management computers have redline throttling (also referred to as the "governor"), they make sure the max RPM you can get under power is at or below red line. Try it some time, put the car into neutral and floor it, depending on the manu it will either go to almost redline, or if you're stopped it'll go to some lesser value (Chrysler cars usually only go to 4000rpm when out of gear). Some cars sound funny when they hit the governor (they oscillate the RPM a little). > Seems > like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the > friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop. That would be true for a car with a manual transmission, except of course that you loose ABS, possibly power steering (if it's electrically driven), and depending on the design of the car your steering column will lock up (some cars don't have ACC between OFF and ON), that is NOT a good thing. > This doesn't seem to > carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while > driving. Aside from what I mentioned above, if you're talking about an automatic transmission car you will also loose brake assist after the reserve is gone. Popping into neutral is by far the safest course of action. The car will rev to red line, but aside from that you will maintain full control of the car. Once you get stopped safely you can then shut the engine off. TTYL

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 12:02 +0100, Robert Soubie wrote: > Le 27/01/2010 17:03, Herbert Graf a Ã©crit : > > Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is > > always there too!) > > And as an old-timer, you could even add a crank! > > Are you seriously implying that standard is an improvement over > automatic? To me, yes, it is. What benefit is an automatic to you? It's much more complicated (means more expensive to buy and eventually fix). Once you're used to standard you don't "notice" having to shift (even in stop and go traffic it doesn't bug me, and I've been in the worst traffic England can throw at you). I suppose it's harder to sip a cup of coffee or tea when driving stick, I consider that a good thing. :) The benefit to me for standard is enjoyment of driving. Driving stick just "feels" more engaged. I know many people aren't interested in that. I personally love driving, and standard makes it that much more enjoyable. I learned on an automatic and was very vary of going to standard. But I really wanted to, so my second car was stick and I don't plan on ever going back (despite stick limiting my vehicle choices quite a bit here in Canada). > I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans > (with little success) of just the opposite! Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! TTYL

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Walter Banks wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > Eric Wolf wrote: > > > > > > > A good driver, with steady nerves, can hopefully think to pop the car > > > into neutral, which is the best thing to do when the Toyota goes wild. > > > > > > > Is that necessarily a good idea? If you pop it into neutral it's > > going to red line the engine when the load comes off of it. Seems > > like you would be better served to turn the key off and let the > > friction of the drivetrain bring it to a stop. This doesn't seem to > > carry any more inherent risk than a vehicle that stalls out while > > driving. > > > > To turn the key off you will lock the steering column on most cars > in North America. While moving that would not be good. Actually (credit where it's due) the only car I've ever driven where turning the engine off did not lock the steering wheel (you had to press and hold in a button under the key and then pull the key out for it to lock) was a Toyota. Regards Sergio Masci

Wife, at age 65 asked for an automatic (she can handle a gear drive just fine), we opted for automatic with a big engine that gets up an goes when needed and loafs at high highway speeds with great mileage. The Bronco has overdrive automatic, I wouldn't have anything other than automatic when the going gets rough. In 4WD when blasting through deep snow, in low range (transfer case), where you may go from 50 mph with the tranny in OD to a crawl in 1st gear and back 50 mph in 300 ft (100 m), with wrestling the steering wheel, who has time and hands to wrestle a gearshift. Dario Greggio wrote: {Quote hidden}> Herbert Graf ha scritto: > >>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >>> (with little success) of just the opposite! >>> >> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives >> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I >> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! >> > > > I agree :) > > I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. > >

>save $100 per unit on a $15,000+ car, This number is much less than the per/vehicle (I knew every run of cost reduction should be at least US$1~2K range from a brand new release), but much more than per parts (some time, 5~50cents on one parts saving). I don't against cost reduction, I against doing the cost reduction after full vehicle release (which is normal in both Truck and Auto industry) and didn't test it (parts level and vehicle level) again. The original parts takes one to three years on all kinds of tests, most of the OEMs never test their cost reduction parts. All they do is a running change, no test. My trick is: buy new vehicles at the end of the first model year, which get almost all bugs fixed, and the cost reduction modification still didn't kick-in. This seems working on all new vehicles I bought. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Peter <TakeThisOuTplpeter2006.....TakeThisOuTyahoo.com> To: TakeThisOuTpiclistKILLspamspammit.edu Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 7:20:32 AM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes: > Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks > used this technology for decades > already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why. Actually, heavy duty equipment (and boats!) have been using hydraulic steering transmissions and hydraulic assisted steering (often both) for at least 100 years. This is needed on account of the huge steering forces. Still they all have manual control if the servo power (diesel driven hydraulic pump or other) fails. Air assisted braking goes back to the steam age in rail systems, and is still in use. Airplanes have been using hydraulic manual remote servo systems with power assist for many years, and they still do that. These things are hardly new and surprising in as far as working safe solutions are concerned. MBAs being allowed by the law, engineers and their own lawyers to save $100 per unit on a $15,000+ car, destroying the good name of the brand built up in 50 years in just one model year, putting people on the street in danger, and keeping their jobs in despite of that, that is new. Peter

I sat in meetings, where it was discussed, to save an ounce of cast iron in a big V8 engine weighing over 400 lbs. :) But when you make 40,000 engines in a week, that adds up to 2500 lbs. Possibly part of the argument was saving in machining costs to remove that extra metal though. Funny NYPD wrote: {Quote hidden}>> save $100 per unit on a $15,000+ car, >> > > This number is much less than the per/vehicle (I knew every run of cost reduction should be at least US$1~2K range from a brand new release), but much more than per parts (some time, 5~50cents on one parts saving). > > I don't against cost reduction, I against doing the cost reduction after full vehicle release (which is normal in both Truck and Auto industry) and didn't test it (parts level and vehicle level) again. The original parts takes one to three years on all kinds of tests, most of the OEMs never test their cost reduction parts. All they do is a running change, no test. > > My trick is: buy new vehicles at the end of the first model year, which get almost all bugs fixed, and the cost reduction modification still didn't kick-in. This seems working on all new vehicles I bought. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Peter <RemoveMEplpeter2006spamBeGoneyahoo.com> > To: spamBeGonepiclist@spam@spam_OUTmit.edu > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 7:20:32 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > Funny NYPD <funnynypd <at> yahoo.com> writes: > >> Drive by wire is not some new technology, the on-highway heavy duty trucks >> used this technology for decades >> already, they just keep their mouth shut. Don't know why. >> > > Actually, heavy duty equipment (and boats!) have been using hydraulic steering > transmissions and hydraulic assisted steering (often both) for at least 100 > years. This is needed on account of the huge steering forces. Still they all > have manual control if the servo power (diesel driven hydraulic pump or other) > fails. Air assisted braking goes back to the steam age in rail systems, and is > still in use. Airplanes have been using hydraulic manual remote servo systems > with power assist for many years, and they still do that. These things are > hardly new and surprising in as far as working safe solutions are concerned. > > MBAs being allowed by the law, engineers and their own lawyers to save $100 per > unit on a $15,000+ car, destroying the good name of the brand built up in 50 > years in just one model year, putting people on the street in danger, and > keeping their jobs in despite of that, that is new. > > Peter > > >

On large OEMs, on-time release is much important than "release it right, maybe a few days late". In the large companies (fortune 200s) I worked, It is not new that: the MBA managers' "on-time release" philosophy forced the engineer(s) to release a parts or design with fault/"incomplete status" on the project due day, then have it fixed later. I used to work at a major OEM whose new vehicle has 100% "90-days comeback rate" (back to the dealer to fix all kind of staff), all cost is under warranty, and the MBA managers still claim profit and be proud of what they are doing. It seems all they care is their bonus (tied strictly to "on-time release"), not a heavy duty truck could run into a gas station or have some accident due to the fault decision. My personally experience at different OEMs tells me 75%~80% of the autos/trucks quality issue should be resolved at the design stage. The engineer who designed those staff should be counted on, and be given enough time and resource to accomplish the job. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Peter <TakeThisOuTplpeter2006spamyahoo.com> To: piclistEraseMEmit.edu Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 8:54:33 AM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? More fun with 'automatic' systems and fly by wire car systems: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/kamikaze_prius/ The problem is hardly new, complexity lowers the MTBF of systems and MBAs lower the bar, ignoring known safe control solutions for cost reasons. Heck, even the Eagle (Apollo moon landing module) had software bugs. As to skimping on a $5 plastic linkage in a $15,000 car, that looks very much like an MBA who needs to be looking for another career. I doubt whether an engineer in his sane mind would allow such a device. Peter

Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Dario Greggio <RemoveMEadpm.toEraseMEspam_OUTinwind.it> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <@spam@piclistRemoveMEEraseMEmit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Herbert Graf ha scritto: >> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >> (with little success) of just the opposite! > > Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives > stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I > rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! I agree :) I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. -- Ciao, Dario -- Cyberdyne

What standard: 4, 5,6, ?? speed paddle shift synchronized, non-synchronized straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch) constant variable 13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the knob, forward/reverse), reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks, twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~) Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing roads and the fun begins Funny NYPD wrote: {Quote hidden}> Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dario Greggio <EraseMEadpm.to@spam@inwind.it> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <@spam@piclistspam_OUT.....mit.edu> > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > Herbert Graf ha scritto: > >>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >>> (with little success) of just the opposite! >>> >> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives >> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I >> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! >> > > > I agree :) > > I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. > >

Standard shift vs. auto-shift. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenkEraseMEwindstream.net> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspamBeGonemit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? What standard: 4, 5,6, ?? speed paddle shift synchronized, non-synchronized straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch) constant variable 13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the knob, forward/reverse), reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks, twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~) Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing roads and the fun begins Funny NYPD wrote: {Quote hidden}> Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dario Greggio <RemoveMEadpm.to@spam@spamBeGoneinwind.it> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <.....piclist@spam@EraseMEmit.edu> > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > Herbert Graf ha scritto: > >>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >>> (with little success) of just the opposite! >>> >> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives >> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I >> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! >> > > > I agree :) > > I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. > >

Here is what the CEO of the parts company says about the issue and recall: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-pedal-maker-says-fix-apf-395647835.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode= "Khilnani said the problem was due to pedals that are slow to depress or release when drivers try to accelerate or slow down. He said the only cases when the pedals could get stuck was when they were used in conditions that go "beyond Toyota specifications." Khilnani did not elaborate what those conditions are." Basically, "!!! it is not our fault !!!" philosophy is so strong on this particular MBA. A gas padel "slow to depress", shall I use the gas padel as I did on the brakes? Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Funny NYPD <.....funnynypdRemoveMEyahoo.com> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <.....piclistSTOPspam@spam@mit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:01:48 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Standard shift vs. auto-shift. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Carl Denk <cdenkEraseME@spam@windstream.net> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistspamBeGonemit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? What standard: 4, 5,6, ?? speed paddle shift synchronized, non-synchronized straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch) constant variable 13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the knob, forward/reverse), reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks, twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~) Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing roads and the fun begins Funny NYPD wrote: {Quote hidden}> Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dario Greggio <spamBeGoneadpm.toKILLspam@spam@inwind.it> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspam_OUT@spam@mit.edu> > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > Herbert Graf ha scritto: > >>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >>> (with little success) of just the opposite! >>> >> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives >> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I >> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! >> > > > I agree :) > > I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. > >

I think that this attitude comes from two things: 1) Sometimes, when things are released late, they never gain significant market share because others were there first. 2) Good engineers are usually perfectionists. Excellent engineers are good engineers who have developed the prudence to know when to let a problem persist in the final product and when to keep working at it. Managers know that many engineers would never finish improving the product if the deadlines were not enforced. Again, some balance needs to be struck here where problems where the probability of occurrence, frequency of opportunity for occurrence, severity of consequences, difficulty of finding a solution, general concern for quality, cost of engineering time, cost of delays are all balanced. Sometimes this balance is struck in a way which puts too much weight on profit and too little on human life. That is wrong, but one also cannot ever develop a product with NO remaining problems. Sean On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Funny NYPD <spamBeGonefunnynypd@spam@yahoo.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On large OEMs, on-time release is much important than "release it right, maybe a few days late". > > In the large companies (fortune 200s) I worked, It is not new that: the MBA managers' "on-time release" philosophy forced the engineer(s) to release a parts or design with fault/"incomplete status" on the project due day, then have it fixed later. > > I used to work at a major OEM whose new vehicle has 100% "90-days comeback rate" (back to the dealer to fix all kind of staff), all cost is under warranty, and the MBA managers still claim profit and be proud of what they are doing. It seems all they care is their bonus (tied strictly to "on-time release"), not a heavy duty truck could run into a gas station or have some accident due to the fault decision. > > My personally experience at different OEMs tells me 75%~80% of the autos/trucks quality issue should be resolved at the design stage. The engineer who designed those staff should be counted on, and be given enough time and resource to accomplish the job. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Peter <RemoveMEplpeter2006EraseMEKILLspamyahoo.com> > To: spamBeGonepiclistspam_OUTRemoveMEmit.edu > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 8:54:33 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > More fun with 'automatic' systems and fly by wire car systems: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/kamikaze_prius/ > > The problem is hardly new, complexity lowers the MTBF of systems and MBAs lower > the bar, ignoring known safe control solutions for cost reasons. Heck, even the > Eagle (Apollo moon landing module) had software bugs. As to skimping on a $5 > plastic linkage in a $15,000 car, that looks very much like an MBA who needs to > be looking for another career. I doubt whether an engineer in his sane mind > would allow such a device. > > Peter > > >

It turns out this is not a new issue to Toyota at all. It was found on 2007, get fixed on 2008. And now it is back again? "In March of 2007, Toyota started getting reports of gas pedals being slow to rise after being depressed for acceleration. Engineers fixed the problem in the Tundra pickup early in 2008. But troubles persisted in other models, eventually leading to last week's U.S. recall and the plans to suspend sales and shut down of six factories while Toyota tries to fix the problems." "Toyota said in a statement it will fix or replace the accelerator pedals for the recalled vehicles to avoid the risk of floor mat entrapment. The company said it will replace floor mats as well for the latest recalled vehicles." By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.) So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good reputation and make high profit with low cost parts. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Funny NYPD <.....funnynypdRemoveMEyahoo.com> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclist@spam@mit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:01:48 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? Standard shift vs. auto-shift. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Carl Denk <EraseMEcdenkRemoveMESTOPspamwindstream.net> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 12:23:32 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? What standard: 4, 5,6, ?? speed paddle shift synchronized, non-synchronized straight cut gears ,double clutch (double declutch) constant variable 13 speed road ranger (3 position lever, twist 2 positions, switch on the knob, forward/reverse), reverse left/right/foward/aft, push down Not to talk about headlight and windshield wiper controls on stalks, twist, push pull, inward, left side, right side. ~) Get into a strange vehicle at night, rain, heavy traffic, confusing roads and the fun begins Funny NYPD wrote: {Quote hidden}> Someday the standard will be more expensive than auto-shift here in north America. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dario Greggio <spamBeGoneadpm.to@spam@inwind.it> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTmit.edu> > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:51:05 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > Herbert Graf ha scritto: > >>> I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans >>> (with little success) of just the opposite! >>> >> Please don't, one of the best parts of Europe is that everybody drives >> stick, I don't even have to ask for a standard transmission car when I >> rent over there, it's just assumed that's what I want! >> > > > I agree :) > > I'm against automatic ... I know it is "easier" but less fun in the end. > >

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:25:11 -0800 (PST), "Funny NYPD" said: > By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of > 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the > floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am > on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may > lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.) > So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda > vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and > nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good > reputation and make high profit with low cost parts. I remember when accelerator pedals hinged at the floor. I imagine mats would be less of a problem that way. Cheerful regards, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

That actually is what eventually lead to this mass recall---An 120MPH Toyota Lexus brand car-accident with gas pedal stuck (Don't remember by a floor Matt or just hold the position by itself). Otherwise, it is still a "everybody-happy day". Business as usual, isn't it? Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Bob Blick <bobblickspamftml.net> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <spam_OUTpiclistspam_OUTspam_OUTmit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:31:00 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:25:11 -0800 (PST), "Funny NYPD" said: > By the way, the floor mat is not an new issue at all. Back to year of > 2003, when I was trying buy a Honda, I was told Hoda didn't supply the > floor mat, I have to pay extra to get 4 pcs Honda made floot mat and I am > on my own responsibility if the floor mat hold the gas pedal which may > lead to an accident. (When I was told that, I just thought Honda sucks.) > So, Honda and its dealer all knew this design fault on all new Honda > vehicles even it was 2003. It is just nobody care about the customer and > nobody care about the design. All they want is take advantage of the good > reputation and make high profit with low cost parts. I remember when accelerator pedals hinged at the floor. I imagine mats would be less of a problem that way. Cheerful regards, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

Greeting, Sean, I wish there are more manager as you described and less mass recalls/car-120MPH-crash accidents. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Sean Breheny <shb7spam_OUTcornell.edu> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspam@spam@mit.edu> Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 1:21:10 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? I think that this attitude comes from two things: 1) Sometimes, when things are released late, they never gain significant market share because others were there first. 2) Good engineers are usually perfectionists. Excellent engineers are good engineers who have developed the prudence to know when to let a problem persist in the final product and when to keep working at it. Managers know that many engineers would never finish improving the product if the deadlines were not enforced. Again, some balance needs to be struck here where problems where the probability of occurrence, frequency of opportunity for occurrence, severity of consequences, difficulty of finding a solution, general concern for quality, cost of engineering time, cost of delays are all balanced. Sometimes this balance is struck in a way which puts too much weight on profit and too little on human life. That is wrong, but one also cannot ever develop a product with NO remaining problems. Sean On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Funny NYPD <funnynypdspamBeGone.....yahoo.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On large OEMs, on-time release is much important than "release it right, maybe a few days late". > > In the large companies (fortune 200s) I worked, It is not new that: the MBA managers' "on-time release" philosophy forced the engineer(s) to release a parts or design with fault/"incomplete status" on the project due day, then have it fixed later. > > I used to work at a major OEM whose new vehicle has 100% "90-days comeback rate" (back to the dealer to fix all kind of staff), all cost is under warranty, and the MBA managers still claim profit and be proud of what they are doing. It seems all they care is their bonus (tied strictly to "on-time release"), not a heavy duty truck could run into a gas station or have some accident due to the fault decision. > > My personally experience at different OEMs tells me 75%~80% of the autos/trucks quality issue should be resolved at the design stage. The engineer who designed those staff should be counted on, and be given enough time and resource to accomplish the job. > > Funny N. > Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com > http://www.AuElectronics.com/products > http://augroups.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Peter <KILLspamplpeter2006.....yahoo.com> > To: spam_OUTpiclistKILLspammit.edu > Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 8:54:33 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] Toyota - fly by wire? > > More fun with 'automatic' systems and fly by wire car systems: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/kamikaze_prius/ > > The problem is hardly new, complexity lowers the MTBF of systems and MBAs lower > the bar, ignoring known safe control solutions for cost reasons. Heck, even the > Eagle (Apollo moon landing module) had software bugs. As to skimping on a $5 > plastic linkage in a $15,000 car, that looks very much like an MBA who needs to > be looking for another career. I doubt whether an engineer in his sane mind > would allow such a device. > > Peter > > > -

Robert Soubie wrote: > Le 27/01/2010 17:03, Herbert Graf a écrit : > >> Yet another reason to make your next car a standard! (push starting is >> always there too!) >> > > And as an old-timer, you could even add a crank! > > Are you seriously implying that standard is an improvement over > automatic? I have spent my life trying to convince my fellow europeans > (with little success) of just the opposite! > > Robert > > I hate driving automatics, I hate how they keep "pushing" all the time, If I'm braking I don't want the engine to keep pushing me into the car in front. I also despise how they change gear at all the wrong times, you want to just give it a bit of a nudge to get around the lights or something and it changes gear, start going up a hill and try to maintain speed and it'll down shift twice, only to rev the guts out of itself just as you get to the top of the hill anyway. The only auto I like is a CVT auto, at least then there's some point to it. I must admit my car has a heavy clutch and I pay a decent price in stop/start traffic, but that's a rare occurrence for me.