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'[OT] Toshiba says to quit HD DVD'
2008\02\19@081846 by Xiaofan Chen

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www.news.com/Toshiba-says-to-quit-HD-DVD/2100-1041_3-6231027.html?tag=nefd.top

This might be a good thing now that Blue-Ray will win. But the other possibility
is that Blue-Ray will die as well because of the high price of the player
(including PS3).

What is your take on this?

Xiaofan

2008\02\19@083114 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Feb 19, 2008 9:18 PM, Xiaofan Chen <spam_OUTxiaofancTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.news.com/Toshiba-says-to-quit-HD-DVD/2100-1041_3-6231027.html?tag=nefd.top
>
> This might be a good thing now that Blue-Ray will win. But the other possibility
> is that Blue-Ray will die as well because of the high price of the player
> (including PS3).
>
> What is your take on this?
>

A nice website: The High Definition DVD FAQ
http://www.digital-digest.com/highdefdvd/faq.html

EVD is pretty a China-only format. Last time, Super VCD (S-VCD)
was once popular in China as well but soon lost ground to DVDs.
So I would not think EVD will be a success, even in China.

Xiaofan

2008\02\19@091154 by Herbert Graf

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On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 21:18 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> www.news.com/Toshiba-says-to-quit-HD-DVD/2100-1041_3-6231027.html?tag=nefd.top
>
> This might be a good thing now that Blue-Ray will win.

It's a good thing for the consumer that finally there is one format.

It's a bad thing for the consumer that Blu-ray won IMHO. It's more
expensive (in every way, mastering, production of the discs, the
players), for little benefit (over HDDVD).

> But the other possibility
> is that Blue-Ray will die as well because of the high price of the player
> (including PS3).

I don't see why. HD is here. Prices will come down. I do believe that
BluRay will in no way be as successful as DVD. The reason being the
"download market" will start to be a major force. Why go out to buy a
movie on disk when you can just download it it? Today we aren't quite
there on the bandwidth side for the mass market, but we're not that far
away.

> What is your take on this?

Happy there is finally only one format, very sad that Sony won this time
around.

TTYL

2008\02\19@113337 by peter green

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> I don't see why. HD is here. Prices will come down. I do believe that
> BluRay will in no way be as successful as DVD. The reason being the
> "download market" will start to be a major force. Why go out to buy a
> movie on disk when you can just download it it?
The other reason being that quite frankly on an ordinary size (<28 inch)
TV in the corner of an ordinary sized living room many people won't
notice the difference. And most TV broadcasts are still SD and likely to
remain that way for a while because of the huge bandwidth needs of HD
broadcast.

Sure movie buffs with a big screen in a dedicated home cinema room will
buy HD versions of movies but I think it will take a very long time to
outdo DVD if it ever does.

Look how long DVD took to replace VHS despite it's numerous advantages.
Now consider that blue-ray/hd-dvd have only one real advantage (quality).

2008\02\19@195354 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 2/20/08, peter green <.....plugwashKILLspamspam@spam@p10link.net> wrote:

> Look how long DVD took to replace VHS despite it's numerous advantages.
> Now consider that blue-ray/hd-dvd have only one real advantage (quality).
>

This might depend on the geographic locations. VHS was replaced by
VCD here in Asia pretty quickly. VCD was quite popular since late 90s.
Even until now VCD is popular here in Singapore.

Xiaofan

2008\02\19@203437 by Apptech

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>> Look how long DVD took to replace VHS despite it's
>> numerous advantages.
>> Now consider that blue-ray/hd-dvd have only one real
>> advantage (quality).
> ... VHS was replaced by VCD here in Asia pretty quickly.

I assume that you mean "for some values of replace".
For read-only that may be true.
For write-once and write-many it's (far) less clear.

I think that there were vanishingly few VCD recorders
available here. And even now DVD recorders are not an 'every
home has one' item, unlike VHS recorders.



       Russell


2008\02\19@222853 by Forrest Christian

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peter green wrote:
> Look how long DVD took to replace VHS despite it's numerous advantages.
> Now consider that blue-ray/hd-dvd have only one real advantage (quality).
>  
I suspect there are two things which slowed the VHS replacement, which
aren't really relevant today:

1) Inability to record on DVD.  Today, people don't expect to do so.  
When timeshifting they use a PVR.

2) Lack of upwards compatibility.  Try as you might a VHS tape just
plain won't fit into a DVD player... and if you do succeed I have a
feeling that it won't play very well :).   All Blu-Ray players that I
know of also play DVD.

I suspect that as DVD players break, many people will begin to purchase
Blu-Ray replacements.   True, the cost is high today, but it will come
down.  Playstation 3's are already down to $300 or so, and you get
pretty decent gaming hardware as a bonus.   People can still play DVD's
on their Blu-Ray players, but it will enable them to start collecting
movies on BluRay instead.

-forrest



2008\02\20@000837 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 2/20/08, Apptech <apptechspamKILLspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> I think that there were vanishingly few VCD recorders
> available here. And even now DVD recorders are not an 'every
> home has one' item, unlike VHS recorders.
>

VHS recorders were not an 'every home has one' item
in large part of Asia.

Not many people here have VHS recorders. In fact, none
of the people I asked have VHS recorders any more. The
last one I owned was in 2002.

People record VCDs using their computers. Now there
are still shops offering service converting VHS/MiniDV
to VCD (and DVDs).

Xiaofan

2008\02\20@023901 by Nate Duehr

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On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:28 PM, Forrest Christian wrote:

> peter green wrote:
>> Look how long DVD took to replace VHS despite it's numerous  
>> advantages.
>> Now consider that blue-ray/hd-dvd have only one real advantage  
>> (quality).
>>
> I suspect there are two things which slowed the VHS replacement, which
> aren't really relevant today:
>
> 1) Inability to record on DVD.  Today, people don't expect to do so.
> When timeshifting they use a PVR.

I recently added a DVD Recorder to the AV "toys" here at the house.  
It was just over $100, and I had a $50 gift certificate for the  
particular online retailer, so it was a very inexpensive "upgrade".

I already have a PVR, but had some recordings just taking up drive  
space that I wanted for "archival purposes" (one was a recording of my  
wife on the local news, for example) that were "trapped" in the PVR.  
A couple of hours playback, and the new DVD recorder doing the honors  
of releasing the video from it's jail cell on the PVR hard drive, and  
then a quick look at the resulting DVD, and the hard disk based  
recordings could (finally) be deleted to get the disk space back.

(If I'd have built a MythTV box instead of using a commercial PVR, I  
would have been able to do this all in one box, but the cost/payback  
analysis said I could pay the commercial fee for the PVR for a great  
many years before I'd ever pay back the hard costs of building a good  
MythTV server and front-end for even one TV.)

Additionally, the particular DVD Recorder I purchased also got decent  
reviews as a DVD playback machine, so it replaced the ancient but  
still fully operational 3-disc JVC DVD changer in the living room.  
The JVC can now migrate downstairs (why -- I don't know, we don't  
typically watch movies down there, but I hate to throw out a perfectly  
working device and maybe kids visiting or something can be sent to the  
basement to watch a movie or something... who knows...?), and the new  
player does HD upconversion and is a progressive scan device.

It'll also play some of the wilder formats (nice to have, but I doubt  
I'll ever use it for that, nor care), and I think I read somewhere in  
the docs that it'll play CD's or DVD's with MP3's on them in data  
format, so I can make up some "shuffle" discs for background music,  
etc.  Again, who knows.  (I barely have time to watch the evening news  
and a couple of favorite shows -- which is why we have the PVR in the  
first place.)

> 2) Lack of upwards compatibility.  Try as you might a VHS tape just
> plain won't fit into a DVD player... and if you do succeed I have a
> feeling that it won't play very well :).   All Blu-Ray players that I
> know of also play DVD.

Heh... yep.

> I suspect that as DVD players break, many people will begin to  
> purchase
> Blu-Ray replacements.   True, the cost is high today, but it will come
> down.  Playstation 3's are already down to $300 or so, and you get
> pretty decent gaming hardware as a bonus.   People can still play  
> DVD's
> on their Blu-Ray players, but it will enable them to start collecting
> movies on BluRay instead.

True.  When things break, they get "upgraded"... thus, engineers build  
things to fall apart within a certain amount of time these days...  
sad, but true.

I don't collect (much) media.  Not something I ever got "into".  
Especially not movies.

We have family that have extensive VHS and DVD collections -- some  
people enjoy that I guess.  I watch a movie once, and I'm done with  
it.  The Redbox $1 rental kiosks are getting a workout from this  
household.

Prior to that, we had Netflix -- but we felt it was a waste of at  
least a few bucks any month where we just let the movies sit unwatched  
when we were busy.  I was tempted by their "instant" download-and-
watch service online, but looking over their pricing, we still just  
wouldn't watch enough movies to justify the lowest priced option that  
had downloadable movies.  I'd rather see them do a "pay as you watch"  
model... if the movies sit at your house all month, you get charged  
lower than if you sent in a movie a day and used the "all you can eat"  
option.

And once in a GREAT while... you just need a Movie Day... two or three  
in a row.  But not EVERY week!

I spend a lot of time driving (unfortunately) a fairly long daily  
commute.  I'd probably try harder to move closer to work if I didn't  
have some ways to entertain myself, but between ham radio, the audio  
music collection (hey, I do have a collection -- but it's digital!  I  
just realized that!) and a few audio podcasts... and the commute is  
covered.  As are longer drives...

(The Yaesu FT-857 mobile HF, VHF, UHF ham radio is WAY more  
entertaining than any media could ever be!)

I'm very glad to see this particular format "war" over with -- at  
least I now know what the next purchase will be... but I'm in no  
hurry.  I do have one HDTV, but even upscaled progressive scan regular  
DVD's on it look pretty darn good.  Good enough to watch a movie,  
really.  It's not a "home theatre" system, by any stretch of the  
imagination, but it does have a less than 40" LCD HDTV, the PVR, a 5-
disc CD changer, and the new DVD recorder/player... along with a  
decent audio amp and a couple of good quality Infinity tower speakers.

The "theatre" setups are tempting, but the room and furniture layout  
of our living room don't lend well to it, and the basement is set up  
for working at our two desks, and has a TV there just for "background  
noise"... or to see what's going on if something newsworthy comes up  
while we're down there doing other things.

I guess it all comes down to taste -- I'm plenty happy with a "modest"  
setup that sounds decent, and looks decent.  The HDTV won't be nearly  
as "interesting" until the majority of sources aren't Standard  
Definition.  The PVR is standard def, for one... and I can't decide  
how I want to proceed there.  But we do have some live HD sources, off-
air and a couple of "extended basic" cable things through the QAM  
tuner (I specifically picked a TV with one of those... not always  
built in on all HDTV's nowadays.)  Live sporting events are "nice" on  
HD, and I certainly like the network stuff that is done in HD, but not  
that much stuff I watch is even in HD format, yet.  Slowly, that's  
changing.

Someone involved in the Democratic National Convention's TV stuff here  
locally pointed out that there's an interesting dilemma for large  
scale live events carried by multiple networks these days... the big  
networks all chose different formats... 720p is pretty commonly used,  
but some are 1080i.  When "pool cameras" are feeding all the networks  
-- they fight over what native format the event will be shot in, and  
who has to take an up or down-converted copy.  Not like the old  
Presidential speeches of old where you could flip between all three  
networks and see the exact same image fed from the same pool cameras  
and video distribution... now they get into pissing matches about  
who's format will rule the day... an interesting side effect of HDTV  
having multiple on-air formats here.

--
Nate Duehr
.....nateKILLspamspam.....natetech.com

2008\02\20@024058 by Nate Duehr

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On Feb 19, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 2/20/08, Apptech <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>> I think that there were vanishingly few VCD recorders
>> available here. And even now DVD recorders are not an 'every
>> home has one' item, unlike VHS recorders.
>>
>
> VHS recorders were not an 'every home has one' item
> in large part of Asia.
>
> Not many people here have VHS recorders. In fact, none
> of the people I asked have VHS recorders any more. The
> last one I owned was in 2002.
>
> People record VCDs using their computers. Now there
> are still shops offering service converting VHS/MiniDV
> to VCD (and DVDs).


Here in the U.S., I don't think VCD ever really took off as a popular  
home format for anything but downloaded bootleg copies of video  
content.  This new DVD recorder I put in recently has the ability to  
play VCD, I think -- but I can't think of when/if I'll ever use it.

Interesting that there's quite a difference in what became popular in  
different areas of the world.

--
Nate Duehr
natespamspam_OUTnatetech.com



2008\02\20@035954 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I guess it all comes down to taste -- I'm plenty happy with
>a "modest" setup that sounds decent, and looks decent.  The
>HDTV won't be nearly as "interesting" until the majority of
>sources aren't Standard Definition.

I had a laugh to myself at an item in the UK newspapers earlier in the week.
The sets of the locally shot soap series are being scrapped as the 'knocked
up, imitation brick, and a bit of painted over gaffer tape to cover the
gaps' sets that were good enough for 625 line analogue TV become obviously
not brick, the lines of the gaffer tape show, and it obviously has the
cracks painted over on HDTV footage. And as all items being shot for
potential export orders are now being shot in HDTV format, they are having
to build new sets.

>Someone involved in the Democratic National Convention's TV stuff
...
> now they get into pissing matches about who's format will rule
>the day... an interesting side effect of HDTV having multiple
>on-air formats here.

And here was I thinking that HDTV was supposed to bring the whole world
under one format ... ;))

2008\02\20@071605 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Feb 20, 2008 3:40 PM, Nate Duehr <@spam@nateKILLspamspamnatetech.com> wrote:

> Here in the U.S., I don't think VCD ever really took off as a popular
> home format for anything but downloaded bootleg copies of video
> content.  This new DVD recorder I put in recently has the ability to
> play VCD, I think -- but I can't think of when/if I'll ever use it.

VCD is never popular outside Asia. And your DVD player/recorder
can play VCD simply because they are mostly made in Asia
(China, Malaysia, Thailand, etc).

Wiki on VCD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD

> Interesting that there's quite a difference in what became popular in
> different areas of the world.
>

SVCD is kind of China-only format. But when DVD becomes popular,
it lost ground to DVD in a short time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Video_CD

Now that HD DVD will be gone, I think the China only HD DVD
format CH-DVD will likely disappear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-DVD
Logo: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=21863

EVD is again China only format with very limited success
(used as the demo player to sell HDTV in China).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Versatile_Disc


Xiaofan

2008\02\20@075101 by peter green

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> VCD is never popular outside Asia. And your DVD player/recorder
> can play VCD simply because they are mostly made in Asia
> (China, Malaysia, Thailand, etc).
>
> Wiki on VCD:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD
>  

Wikipedia makes it sound like VCD took off in east asia (note: asia
reffers to a huge area, be carefull when using that term especially on
an international list) because of a combination of VHS not having got
anywhere near as entrenched as it did in western europe/america and VHS
not getting on with high humidity not becuase of any quality
improvement. Does that sound corret to you?

I think the main point of my previous comment was that it takes more
than just an improvement in picture quality to displace an entrenched
format. Particularlly when the quality is already high enough you need
very large TVs (or to be sitting very close) to really appreciate the
higher quality.


2008\02\20@090513 by peter green

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> Playstation 3's are already down to $300 or so
really where did you find that price?! It looks like americans get tham
at about $400 (checked on newegg which is afaict one of the cheaper
sources in the USA) while we brits pay half as much again as that
(though we do get a free game thrown in).

> People can still play DVD's
> on their Blu-Ray players, but it will enable them to start collecting
> movies on BluRay instead.
Can typical blue-ray players downscale to SD or can they only be used
with a HDTV?  I'm not sure I would wan't to buy a player that can only
be plugged into one of my TVs.

Also when blue-ray players come down sufficiantly in price (and are
either capable of downscaling or all our sets are capable of taking a HD
input) that it is a no-brainer to buy them instead of DVD players it
will still take years to replace all the DVD players in say my parents
household.

2008\02\20@091416 by Herbert Graf

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On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 00:40 -0700, Nate Duehr wrote:
> Here in the U.S., I don't think VCD ever really took off as a popular  
> home format for anything but downloaded bootleg copies of video  
> content.  This new DVD recorder I put in recently has the ability to  
> play VCD, I think -- but I can't think of when/if I'll ever use it.

Yes, in the western world VCD/SVCD basically didn't exist except for
bootleg movies.

That said, it's supported by most DVD players. Most consumers here don't
even know that! :) TTYL

2008\02\20@094344 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Feb 20, 2008 8:44 PM, peter green <KILLspamplugwashKILLspamspamp10link.net> wrote:

> Wikipedia makes it sound like VCD took off in east asia (note: asia
> reffers to a huge area, be carefull when using that term especially on
> an international list) because of a combination of VHS not having got
> anywhere near as entrenched as it did in western europe/america and VHS
> not getting on with high humidity not becuase of any quality
> improvement. Does that sound corret to you?

That is basically correct. VCD quality is on par with VHS. Take note VHS
was quite popular as well (more popular than LD) in the mentioned
Asian countries (East Asia, Southeast Asia and South Asia,
so sure about West Asia.) but not as popular as VCD which basically
replaced VHS in short time.

Wikipedia is also correct that VCD is also a very popular format for karaoke
in East Asia, even until now. Last time (before late 90s), the most
popular format of commercial Karaoke was actually LD (more
popular and seemed to be of better quality than VHS).

Cost is quite sensitive here. So blu-ray will not be popular in large part
of Asia until the Chinese companies could get low patent fee with
blu-ray. That will not be so soon. It would not be surprised that
Chinese vendors may offer a China-only Hi-Definition format
after EVD.

Relevant link.
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9874317-7.html

Xiaofan





> I think the main point of my previous comment was that it takes more
> than just an improvement in picture quality to displace an entrenched
> format. Particularlly when the quality is already high enough you need
> very large TVs (or to be sitting very close) to really appreciate the
> higher quality.
>
>
>
> -

2008\02\20@164326 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Xiaofan Chen
> Sent: 20 February 2008 14:44
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Toshiba says to quit HD DVD
>
> On Feb 20, 2008 8:44 PM, peter green <TakeThisOuTplugwashEraseMEspamspam_OUTp10link.net> wrote:
>
> > Wikipedia makes it sound like VCD took off in east asia (note: asia
> > reffers to a huge area, be carefull when using that term especially
on
> > an international list) because of a combination of VHS not having
got
> > anywhere near as entrenched as it did in western europe/america and
VHS
> > not getting on with high humidity not becuase of any quality
> > improvement. Does that sound corret to you?
>
> That is basically correct. VCD quality is on par with VHS. Take note
VHS
{Quote hidden}

Far better, Laser Disc was not far behind DVD quality in terms of
vertical resolution(425 lines vs 480 lines for NTSC), and of course did
not suffer from the compression artefacts of many of the earlier DVDs.
They were too bulky and limited in storage to succeed though.

Mike

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