Searching \ for '[OT] Thinking of finishing my degree.....' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=thinking+finishing
Search entire site for: 'Thinking of finishing my degree.....'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] Thinking of finishing my degree.....'
2010\12\02@011859 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: My $0.02 in the USA if you apply at a company with more than
:: 50 people these days you will NOT get through HR without a
:: degree

I have a bee in my bonnet about this (I suppose the majority here would have a bee in their hood), in my experience just because someone has a degree doesn't necessarily mean they are a brilliant person when at the coalface. Therefore depending on what the position is people with 'real world' experience (that term is probably now copyrighted by Griffith University here in Qld), can have as much or more knowledge than someone just out of university.

Case in point.

Two years ago I worked for a small company that was an agent for high end medical diagnostic equipment - my role was to install, repair, train and troubleshoot hardware and software problems.  I went on all the company's courses in California, got all their certificates and as the company was only about 50-60 strong knew the directors and sales managers.

The company I worked for (a 3 man band) decided to shut up shop and the owner became the sole representative of this company - with me now being employed by this company to do exactly the same work covering the AUS,NZ, Singapore and possibly Honk Kong region. What happened? The Sales Director rang up to give me a phone interview and told me I wasn't acceptable because I didn't have a US university degree, just a City and Guilds UK and a Tafe Engineering here in Australia.

So suddenly, I wasn't good enough to do the job that I had been doing, and they had certificated me for.

Strangely (to me) universities here often advertise jobs as - with degrees of whatever discipline or equivalent knowledge or experience. Whic seems to me to be the way to go. Judge each person on their actual merits not what you perceive the persons merits to be.

Colin
--
cdb, spam_OUTcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 2/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\02@094716 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
cdb wrote:
> So suddenly, I wasn't good enough to do the job that I had been
> doing, and they had certificated me for.

No, most likely you weren't good enough before, and this was a easy excuse
to get rid of you.  Employers are very very rarely going to tell you the
real reason they dump you.  There is no upside to it for them.

> Judge each person on their
> actual merits not what you perceive the persons merits to be.

Sure, in a perfect world when time to research each applicant is available.
However, especially in the current economy where every bozo sends out 100
applications since they have little to loose, employers end up with a large
stack of resumes for each position.  Especially at big companies, the hiring
managers don't have time or it's too expensive for them to weed thru the 100
resumes.  The resumes get dumped on a low lever HR person who is given a
minimum set of requirements.  If it says BS degree is required, then it's
real easy for them to ditch the resumes of the applicants that don't even
have BS degrees.  That's how the real world works.  It may not be perfect,
but there is some sense to it all.

I agree that actual experience becomes more relevant than a degree as you
get more working years behind you.  However, a degree still means something..
It's not about the extra education necessarily, but about your character.  A
degree means you were willing to do some up front investing, to tolerate
some pain for eventual gain.  This is quite relevant for engineering where
you have to read manuals and understand the technology befure jumping into a
design.  It also means you weren't a truck driver or auto mechanic that woke
up one day and decided engineering would be a good gig.  Jumping right into
a trade from highschool means you didn't think you were that smart, which
make me wonder why I'm supposed to think you're that smart.  I do know one
person who did make this transition successfully and became a good engineer,
but that is rare.  He realized one day he really was smart enough, and then
went and got a BS EE.  Without that degree nobody would have taken him
seriously, for good reason.

Experience also teaches different things from formal education.  From
experience you can learn how to get things done and how to react in certain
situations.  It does not teach the theory that is so important in
engineering.  Experience is sortof like learning from examples only.  That
can be useful, but isn't the whole picture.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\02@101440 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
College is a fountain of knowledge where students go to drink.

Kerry


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\12\02@114014 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:15:05 -0500, "Kerry Wentworth" said:
> College is a fountain of knowledge where students go to drink.

I'd forgotten that one. English is a wonderful language! And it
immediately brought back visions of exchanges around the side of liquor
stores, "hey mister, do me a favor?".

Cheers,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
                         or over the web

2010\12\02@132324 by Kevin

picon face
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, cdb wrote:

>
>
> :: My $0.02 in the USA if you apply at a company with more than
> :: 50 people these days you will NOT get through HR without a
> :: degree
>
> I have a bee in my bonnet about this (I suppose the majority here would
> have a bee in their hood), in my experience just because someone has a
> degree doesn't necessarily mean they are a brilliant person when at the
> coalface. Therefore depending on what the position is people with 'real
> world' experience (that term is probably now copyrighted by Griffith
> University here in Qld), can have as much or more knowledge than someone
> just out of university.
>

I agree, but I work for a large multi-national and I do not see any resumes unless they have a  four year degree now.
In the hey day of the 90's some of my best employees did not have degrees. Unfortunately, as Olin indicated HR would toss their resume in the trash without a second thought these days.

I watched a show the other day and HR has a term called the "purple squirrel". It means in the present economy so many job functions have been combined that nobody qualifies for them. So, if you got layed off and your job responsibilities got rolled into another one, you're not even qualified to do the job anymore

2010\12\02@133941 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I watched a show the other day and HR has a term called the
> "purple squirrel". It means in the present economy so many
> job functions have been combined that nobody qualifies for
> them. So, if you got layed off and your job responsibilities
> got rolled into another one, you're not even qualified to do
> the job anymore.

Meaning may be somewhat flexible.

These list it as "the ideal candidate"

 www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=purple%20squirrel
 http://www.purple-squirrel.co.uk/

In between

 lesliemason.blogspot.com/2009/03/purple-squirrel-candidates.html
 http://hullstrategies.com/Unfurled/?p=233


This links it to your term - page has PS as a link but not in content,
but is relevant:

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39604781/ns/business-careers

2010\12\02@145614 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: o, most likely you weren't good enough before, and this was a easy
:: excuse
:: to get rid of you.  Employers are very very rarely going to tell
:: you the
:: real reason they dump you.  There is no upside to it for them.

1. I wasn't directly employed by them.

2. By inference to take your considered thoughts on the matter, they are saying that their training, courses and awarding certificates of attainment are in actual fact just pretty pieces of paper - much like many university degrees come to think of it.

3. To leave me alone on this side of the world to be their 'face' if they thought I was useless on $250K - 300K equipment in the field of cancer research and general histopathology and haematology diagnostic equipment, would not only damage their name, but could endanger lives if the machines/software caused incorrect diagnoses or delay diagnosis whilst the Pathologist went back to deconvoluting images him/herself, would seem a remarkably bold move for them as was the case before the agency I was employed y decided to fold.

4. People start to need to become more honest, though whilst I realise some people would ahve difficulty in being honest in a polite way, the option does actually exist.

5. If someone is useless - I tell them, sometimes people aren't so useless after all, once informed - again politely and without vindictiveness.
6. Before I wandered from my home country, I was a senior manager for a large employee owned company in the UK. I can tell you now (though of course you do not have to believe it) if one were useless, they were swiftly (well to be honest over a year normally) either moved sideways or promoted to a backwater out of harms way, until they felt themselves to be so useless they resigned.

7. The upside is honesty, integrity and actually standing for something. --
cdb, .....colinKILLspamspam@spam@btech-online.co.uk on 3/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\02@150150 by cdb

flavicon
face


:::: College is a fountain of knowledge where students go to drink.

Yes, I worked with a girl who was getting a teachers degree in IT, University was one long party as far as she was concerned, a subsidised social meeting club. Come her final exams, by her own admission she just copied and pasted most of her exam paper and project. At first she was failed, then saw the Dean of Studies, battered her eyelashes at him and came to an understanding that all the work she'd 'pilfered' would be allowed to stand so long as she listed the websites as sources.

She still didn't know too much about IT though.
I also know of a Welsh lady who had two degrees, but was far prouder of her ability to drink any man under the table and one an undergraduates 'award' for said feat.

Colin
--
cdb, colinspamKILLspambtech-online.co.uk on 3/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\02@151413 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
Just one comment to the recent posts to this topic --

It seems to me perfectly likely that the reason why so many people
insist on university degrees is that they are

A) Lazy (in the case of the hapless HR person who uses it to
distinguish many candidates that may be, in fact, much better than the
ones with university degrees)

or

B) Trying to self justify the fact that they got one themselves

I am sure there are things you can learn in a university environment,
but to be honest (at least in my neck of the woods - which is NOT
electrical engineering) I have not seriously fealt lacking at least in
my job without them.

An earlier poster (Jim) relayed his personal experiences with this
requirement, and the fact that he was able to get a perfectly usable
education at a career training school (even at its best, ITT does not
constitute a real university).

I have met, and continue to meet people who work in IT, or in
programming in particular who went to colleges (some to technical
schools, others having went to UCF with graduate level degrees) that
did very well in college, understand (or at least claim to understand)
the theories of programming, and cannot program a simple text editor
that is bug free.

Is it true that there is a great deal of importance in some circles on
university education?  Sure is.  Do I think it is often justified?
No.  The smart employers will not look solely at a person's degree.
The degree is nothing but a piece of paper that said that you had the
opprotunity to sit through four years at a college and listen to some
instructor drone on about subject <x>.  It doesn't mean anything.
Afterall, it is completely possible to pass through a class and not
master the material.

The same was true ten years ago when people were placing the highest
level of importance on certifications.  Soon after people who got
these expensive certifications got jobs in actual IT shops, managers
learned that the certs themselves didn't mean anything.

Just sayin,

Aleksei

On 2 December 2010 14:56, cdb <.....colinKILLspamspam.....btech-online.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\02@151704 by John Gardner

picon face
> her ability to drink any man under the table ...

Sounds like things have'nt changed that much...  :)

Jac

2010\12\02@153850 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
cdb wrote:
>>> o, most likely you weren't good enough before, and this was a easy
>>> excuse
>>> to get rid of you.  Employers are very very rarely going to tell
>>> you the
>>> real reason they dump you.  There is no upside to it for them.
>
> 1. I wasn't directly employed by them.
>
> 2. By inference to take your considered thoughts on the matter, they
> are saying that their training, courses and awarding certificates of
> attainment are in actual fact just pretty pieces of paper - much like
> many university degrees come to think of it.

You assume they didn't want you because of quality of work.  That may have
had nothing to do with it.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\02@155231 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Alexandros Nipirakis wrote:
> A) Lazy (in the case of the hapless HR person who uses it to
> distinguish many candidates that may be, in fact, much better than the
> ones with university degrees)

You are missing the point.  It's not laziness but basic logistics.

The company has to ballance getting the best candidate versus the time it
takes to find candidates.  The process is going to be a compromise because
it's never possible to know everything about all candidates.  The question
then becomes how to make the process efficient enough to still end up with
enough good prospects while spending a limited effort on the problem.  For a
real engineering position, ditching the ones with not even a BS degree is a
no-brainer.

Every once in a very great while they may pass over a candidate they would
have otherwise hired.  However, most of the time there will be better
candidates left after the first cut.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\02@170038 by Erik Quackenbush

flavicon
face
On 12/2/2010 12:39 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> cdb wrote:
>>>> o, most likely you weren't good enough before, and this was a easy
>>>> excuse
>>>> to get rid of you.  Employers are very very rarely going to tell
>>>> you the
>>>> real reason they dump you.  There is no upside to it for them.
>> 1. I wasn't directly employed by them.
>>
>> 2. By inference to take your considered thoughts on the matter, they
>> are saying that their training, courses and awarding certificates of
>> attainment are in actual fact just pretty pieces of paper - much like
>> many university degrees come to think of it.
> You assume they didn't want you because of quality of work.  That may have
> had nothing to do with it.

Olin is correct.

They could have let you go because they thought you were too arrogant to work with and
you were affecting the morale of the rest of the group.

Even the brightest guy in the world has to be able to work with others.

-Erik

2010\12\02@174945 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
Erik Quackenbush wrote:
> Even the brightest guy in the world has to be able to work with others.
>
> -Erik
>   No I don't!  ;)

Kerry



-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\12\02@175832 by RussellMc

face picon face
> They could have let you go because they thought you were too arrogant to
> work with and
> you were affecting the morale of the rest of the group.

You really should say something like " ...because, for example, ..."
when you say things like that.
Otherwise the implication that a large proportion will often see
(whether intended or not) is that YOU find the poster arrogant,
specifically,  and are  using this as a way of saying it.

This is not (meant to be :-) ) just PC sensitivity on my part but an
observaytion based on many cases of how people tend to act wrt various
posts.

> Even the brightest guy in the world has to be able to work with others.

That's usually true Erik, but you'll also find that a drudge who has
specialised at interview techniques and 'reading the mind' of managers
will often be able to get through barriers that more capable people
fail at.

:-).

Colin was probably rejected on suspicion of being a terrorist.



       Russell

>
> -Erik
>
>
>

2010\12\03@034213 by cdb

flavicon
face
:: Colin was probably rejected on suspicion of being a terrorist.

High probability, not only did I miss my flight at Vista to LA (the taxi couldn't find the industrial estate almost next to the  airport) but due to confusion I missed my flight at LA as well. Part of my luggage reached Auckland before I did, the rest reached Brisbane a week later. Mind you the cab driver didn't know where the hotel was from the airport, even though it can't be missed with a giant replica windmill outside it, a warehouse outlet opposite and a humungous 7-11 on it's other side

Note to those who've never flown internal flights to LA - it's set up mainly for United and their subsidaries -  Air NZ departures terminal is a good 20 minutes walk against the throng at the other end of the building. Time is needed when transferring - though Heathrow is worse.

Off now to ensure my crepe pan is not casting aspersions of a dark nature over my aqueous heating device

Colin
--
cdb, colinspamspam_OUTbtech-online.co.uk on 3/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2010 , 2011 only
- Today
- New search...