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'[OT] Steve Jobs Passes Away'
2011\10\05@210455 by Josh Koffman

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Hi folks,

Just a quick note, for those who have not heard, Steve Jobs passed
away this evening.

Like him or hate him, he's done some rather amazing things, and I have
a lot of respect for the man.

Josh
-- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
        -Douglas Adams

2011\10\06@040250 by Tamas Rudnai

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Very sad news!

He gave us so many things, we shall remember for all of these -- he lives
forever in his devices, in his visionary words which are still echoing and
in our memories.

RIP

Tamas




On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Josh Koffman <spam_OUTjoshybearTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\10\06@090148 by Electron

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At 03.04 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>Just a quick note, for those who have not heard, Steve Jobs passed
>away this evening.

Yes. I'm sorry to hear that.

Hopefully Bill Gates will copy him this time too.

2011\10\06@122657 by Adam Field

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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Electron <.....electron2k4KILLspamspam@spam@infinito.it> wrote:
> At 03.04 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>>Hi folks,
>>
>>Just a quick note, for those who have not heard, Steve Jobs passed
>>away this evening.
>
> Yes. I'm sorry to hear that.
>
> Hopefully Bill Gates will copy him this time too.
>
Two links for you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual.htm

2011\10\06@123035 by RussellMc

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Death wishes are not especially welcome here, even in jest. Whatever.

Bill G is not my all time favorite person. But it's worth noting that
Bill Gates has done and is doing a very large amount of good with "the
money he has". The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation is putting
resources into major world problems with a major emphasis on those
affecting developing countries. [Some people may need to be careful
with how they comment on that!](Not you Electron).
eg A step on the path to a cure for AIDS, or a major anti-malaria
breakthrough, MAY eventuate because TBaMGF are prepared to fund
somewhat more esoteric and leading edge research than many - along
with more standard research as well.  (They declined to give ne money
for a "sure-fire" malaria reduction system :-) ).

I don't know what Steve Jobs did in major humanitarian terms with his
money - maybe a lot maybe not, I just don't know. Nobody is compelled
to spend their $ in this way, but those who do probably deserve to
have it noticed at least to an extent.

         Russell

On 7 October 2011 02:01, Electron <electron2k4spamKILLspaminfinito.it> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\10\06@124303 by Electron

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At 18.26 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Electron <.....electron2k4KILLspamspam.....infinito.it> wrote:
>> At 03.04 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>>>Hi folks,
>>>
>>>Just a quick note, for those who have not heard, Steve Jobs passed
>>>away this evening.
>>
>> Yes. I'm sorry to hear that.
>>
>> Hopefully Bill Gates will copy him this time too.
>>
>Two links for you:
>
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
>http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual.html

I am strongly against vaccines, so these are the wrong links to show me. ;)

And I am strongly against vaccines because my son has been seriously damaged by them.. so I am well informed.

2011\10\06@124437 by Electron

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At 18.29 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>Death wishes are not especially welcome here, even in jest. Whatever.

It was just humor.. I really agree with your statement.


>Bill G is not my all time favorite person. But it's worth noting that
>Bill Gates has done and is doing a very large amount of good with "the
>money he has". The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation is putting

Again, I'm in total disagreement with this, besides the apparences,
I think they're doing (willingly?) a lot of damage to Africa, etc..

Of course, I strongly hope to be wrong!

PS: I was not a fan of Steve Jobs either.

2011\10\06@125021 by PICdude

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Quoting Adam Field <EraseMEadamspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbadtech.org>:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Electron <electron2k4spamspam_OUTinfinito.it> wrote:
>>
>> Hopefully Bill Gates will copy him this time too.
>>
> Two links for you:
>
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
> http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual.html


This comment (Electron's) is really poor.  I've worked for Microsoft  and met Bill Gates a few times, and though I think he's technically  great, I don't like a lot of the philosophies at MS.  I'll spare you  the specifics, but the net result is that I have many issues with  MS/BG.  However, to make a comment like this is really poor --  whatever *you* have against them, just walk away and move on.

Cheers,
-Neil.

2011\10\06@134442 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:50 PM, PICdude <@spam@picdude3KILLspamspamnarwani.org> wrote:

> This comment (Electron's) is really poor.  I've worked for Microsoft
> and met Bill Gates a few times, and though I think he's technically
> great, I don't like a lot of the philosophies at MS.  I'll spare you
> the specifics, but the net result is that I have many issues with
> MS/BG.  However, to make a comment like this is really poor --
> whatever *you* have against them, just walk away and move on.
>

100% agree with you! Bill Gates and Steve Jobs started their long journey of
changing the world together. We only can express our big thanks to these
people and try to learn from them.

BTW Steve Ballmer wrote some nice words:

http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2011/oct11/10-05statement.mspx

Tamas




>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>

2011\10\06@144730 by RussellMc

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> >Two links for you:
> >
> >en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
> >http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual.html
>
> I am strongly against vaccines, so these are the wrong links to show me. ;)
>
> And I am strongly against vaccines because my son has been seriously damaged by them.. so I am well informed.

Vaccines were only a part of that list - and not the majority part.
If everyone has to meet 100% with our approval in all they do to be
worthwhile at all then vanishingly few would make the grade.

Vaccines can do great harm, especially to individuals.
My son was put in hospital due to a vaccine - and left hospital almost
instantly due to the effects of the same vaccine :-).
No harm done - measles !!! The wholly safe and inactive measles
vaccine [almost certainly] gave him measles and he wasadmitted to
hospital because of his mysterious condition. When he came out in red
spots they discharged him more rapidly than you've ever seen a
hospital act.

And it is undoubted that some individuals  are badly harmed or killed
by vaccines.
That doesn't make them "bad" from an overall point of view  - just
horrendously unfortunate in their worst case effects rather than their
general effects. Certainly there are some vaccines and programs which
are ill advised or based more on commercial gain than on rational
justification. BUT look at Bill G's vaccine list and you'll find some
very very major ones there which undoubtedly have a  vast net benefit.

TB vaccine -  would you seriously suggest that that is a bad idea overall?
Mabe you would.
If so, why?

Japanese encephalitis?

GAVI alliance: ... diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough),
hepatitis B, Hib and yellow fever, and more than five million future
deaths have been prevented (2010 WHO estimation).[3] GAVI has the
opportunity to help countries save more lives with the introduction of
two new vaccines. Pneumonia and diarrhoea ...

Diarrhoea is THE biggest killer of young children in developing countries.

Some people will simply dispute the claims that vaccines in general
save a vast net number of  lives in the manner that they do. But such
people are in danger of falling off the edge of their flat earth or of
dying from diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis , hepatitis B, Hib,  yellow
fever, pneumonia ,  diarrhoea etc.

Smallpox has been eliminated from the world. A stunning achievement.
Vaccination works.

In many areas and countries Polio is as good as gone. Including my
country. When cases do occur we look to find where else in the world
they have come from. Vaccination works.

Those who don't vaccinate in a community where others largely do,
benefit from a "freeloader" effect as long as too large a %age do not
free load. If say 90% vaccinate and 10% don't the net reduction in the
disease concerned protects the freeloaders. The freeloaders get the
benefits without the undoubted risks. Something for nothing. Good
value if you can manage it.

So, disliking Bill because he has saved and will continue to save
literally millions of children's lives is an allowable personal
choice, but not one which you may expect the majority to share.



  Russel

2011\10\06@154511 by Mike Hord

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>
> In many areas and countries Polio is as good as gone. Including my
> country. When cases do occur we look to find where else in the world
> they have come from. Vaccination works.
>

Snipping the vast majority of what Russell said, and totally not wishing
to start/engage in a flame war on this subject, my personal opinion of
the matter is that vaccination is its own worst enemy- because of
vaccination (and antibiotics), the current generation of first-worlders is
almost entirely composed of people who have never lost a loved one
to a communicable disease, or, for that matter, never had a loved one
so much as hospitalized by a communicable disease.

Two generations ago, this state of affairs was absolutely inconceivable.

My GUESS is that vaccination rates will continue to drop, until
another pandemic like the Spanish Flu that ended WWI* comes along,
at which point the vax rates will skyrocket for another couple of
generations.

Mike H.

* Some debate on that point of course but it was definitely a strong
contributing factor. I just read a book about the early jet age where
one of the early aviation heroes (may have been Tex Johnston)
recounted remembering visiting an uncle at a military camp in
Kansas and seeing the influenza dead laid out in rows on the
ground to freeze so they could be stored until they could be
disposed of

2011\10\06@170242 by Electron

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At 18.50 2011.10.06, you wrote:
>Quoting Adam Field <KILLspamadamKILLspamspambadtech.org>:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Electron <RemoveMEelectron2k4TakeThisOuTspaminfinito.it> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hopefully Bill Gates will copy him this time too.
>>>
>> Two links for you:
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
>> http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual.html
>
>
>This comment (Electron's) is really poor.  I've worked for Microsoft  
>and met Bill Gates a few times, and though I think he's technically  
>great, I don't like a lot of the philosophies at MS.  I'll spare you  
>the specifics, but the net result is that I have many issues with  
>MS/BG.  However, to make a comment like this is really poor --  
>whatever *you* have against them, just walk away and move on.

I can't stand hypocrits that USE charity to put ham on the face of people.
This is my thought, and is less banal than you may think.

If you want to believe they are philanthrophs, by any means please do it.

As you said, if you don't like what I think of them, just walk away and move on.

But do not assume I'm ungrateful or such, you don't know anything about me.

I have the uttermost esteem for real philanthrops, but I don't think MS/BG are,
and neither you nor me can be 100% sure about the truth. As I don't pretend to
convince you, please refrain from comments like the one you just made.

And I don't even think BG is technically great. I have seen nothing that can
make me think this. Jay Miner was technically great, just to name one.

Of course, you can think BG is the greatest programmer on earth, I have nothing
against your freedom of opinion or thought. As long as you don't adjectivate my
thoughts as being "poor".

Regards.


>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>

2011\10\06@170243 by Electron

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At 20.45 2011.10.06, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Presented this way I am wrong and you are right, but I argue every
marvellous thing you wrote on the vaccines. Polio vaccines work? Come
on.. it has caused many more illness than it supposedly avoided, until
it was banned.

And, remember the recent H1N1 hoax? It was an error or a deliberate,
criminal act to earn even more dirty money?

Smallpox was already disappearing when they introduced the vaccine.
They only show you the graph of the "after the vaccine was introduced",
but they don't show you that the trend was already (and even more
sharply so!) falling before they introduced that vaccine.

But nothing is more DOGMATIC than vaccination, and I don't want to look
like those crazy cospirationists, so I'll stop here, although I could
question the efficacy of almost every vaccination, expecially those that
use heavy metals or other toxic substances in it.

I want just to add three small things:

1) vaccines are a very big business.

2) big pharma, like all corporations, seeks profit. And if you make
profit from drugs, you do it on ill people, not on sane people. So
whatever makes (in some way or another) people ill, subsequently makes
you money. This is the biggest conflict of interests on earth.

3) drugs+vaccines are perhaps the hugest market in the world.

This being said, everyone is free to believe what he wants, to get
vaccination or not, I have no wish at all to argue on this list, there
are better places eventually. But do not call me one that thinks that
the earth is flat: someday you may risk to wake up falling from yours.

Sometimes science is as arrogant as religion, I invite you all to be
a bit less dogmatic on supposed "facts". Give yourself the benefit of
the doubt, expecially when your choices are strongly related to someone
else making big money.

Regards,
Mario


>
>
>
>   Russell
>

2011\10\06@170814 by Electron

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PS: sorry my English is not good. Anyway:

>Smallpox was already disappearing when they introduced the vaccine.
>They only show you the graph of the "after the vaccine was introduced",
>but they don't show you that the trend was already (and even more
>sharply so!) falling before they introduced that vaccine.

oh, and the reason why this happened is because the sanitation improved
a lot in the last century.

Look at this, so much for smallpox vaccine wonders:
http://www.whale.to/v/obosawin1_files/table8.gif

And we're talking about one of the most effective vaccines!! Things are
much worse for others, as I said.

But if this is the premise, I think it's enough.

2011\10\06@170947 by Bob Blick

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I suggest we just abandon this thread. OK?

Thanks,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
 http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

2011\10\06@171348 by Electron

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PPS: sorry, this is something that as you may understand turns some
emotional keys in me.

other graph:
http://www.whale.to/a/obomsawin.html

whole page (just googled for one second):
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/smallpox_graphs_h.html

Another key fact: Amish people do not vaccinate. They're free from the
autism pandemy we're facing. Why?

Ok, really enough.. I'm off this discussion. Just don't call me a fanatic,
when I live in a world of people who take choices on themselves and their
sons without really knowing the implications on them, basing on a faith on
a corrupted medical class.

I used to believe in vaccines and drugs too, until I HAD to inform myself.

2011\10\06@172701 by IVP

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www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=1075708

2011\10\06@183419 by Chris Roper

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This was meant as a tribute thread.

As one who has met Bill for work reasons and Malinda for foundation
reasons I take serious offence at this thread. As a Rotarian I can
assure you that the Polio program was no scan.

I will bow out now and block this thread.

The world has just lost a visionary and innovator.

lets show respect for the remaining pioneer

2011\10\06@183515 by M.L.

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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Electron <spamBeGoneelectron2k4spamBeGonespaminfinito.it> wrote:
> Another key fact: Amish people do not vaccinate. They're free from the
> autism pandemy we're facing. Why?

It wouldn't be diagnosed, that's why.

-- Martin K

2011\10\06@205538 by Carl Denk

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 On 10/6/2011 6:34 PM, M.L. wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Electron<TakeThisOuTelectron2k4EraseMEspamspam_OUTinfinito.it>  wrote:
>> Another key fact: Amish people do not vaccinate. They're free from the
>> autism pandemy we're facing. Why?
> It wouldn't be diagnosed, that's why.
>
I would suggest, less likely to be diagnosed. The Amish community to the South of us is the largest in the USA There are various groups of varying degrees of strictness. They do see health care professionals. Dental visits, eye glasses, and hospitals are not rare, but I wouldn't call common either. I believe I have seen Amish with what looked like Autism, but can't say with certainty, what the situation, or other factors may be relevant. In driving by their one room schools during recess time, the children seem very active, playing baseball, tag, and other physical activities.

Even if diagnosed, I would think, outside help would not be sought

2011\10\07@044051 by RussellMc

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> Look at this, so much for smallpox vaccine wonders:
> http://www.whale.to/v/obosawin1_files/table8.gif

So much indeed.
Very impressive.

1. At a visual guess of a least square curve fit I'd guesstimate that
the slope (rate of decrease) close to doubled after  the program
intensified. I don't know what "intensified" means in this context but
if intensifyig something noticeably increases  the rate (or appears to
be causal) then one can expect that the prior efforts may have been
responsible for the prior decline.

2. The prior curve MAY have been aaymptoting exponentially with a
decreasingrate of decrease (not enough date to be sure) bu if it was
the "tail" may have been going to be long.

With the intensified program history tells that the tail was
nonexistant, so yes, certainly impressive.

3. Looking at the page that that was taken from, I was genuinely
amazed at the caption they chose to give it.

The site         http://www.whale.to/    where the material came from
is certainly an interesting one.




   Russel

2011\10\07@045326 by RussellMc

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> My GUESS is that vaccination rates will continue to drop, until
> another pandemic like the Spanish Flu that ended WWI* comes along,
> at which point the vax rates will skyrocket for another couple of
> generations.

FWIW / interest only / YMMV / do not bend fold spindle mutilate store
in an informatin retrieval system copy duplicate ...

Attmpts have been made to "dig up" SF victims to attain live virus
samples to compare with modern strains. People buried in northern
lattitude in permafrost. Memory suggests they may have succeeded after
several failiures. Gargoyle will know.

It is generally considered that more people were killed by the
1918-1919 "Spanish Influenza" epidemic than died in WW1 (from other
than flu). Probably 30 million +.

A section of our major local cemetery ( Waikumete,  in Auckland, New
Zealand) is dedicated to people who died from the 1918-19 flu.

The population of Samoa was very badly affected due in large part to
poor quarantine decisions made by the controlling authorities (under
NZ control). But, it may have happened regardless.

My Grandfather survived the Western Front and the flu. I'm very pleased to say.

I have a friend who contracted Polio in India 'long ago'. Now in her
70's. Has been very very badly affected by 'post polio syndrome' for
many years. Makes life more than averagely interesting compared tothe
normal challenges of being that old.

I recall being given the Salk oral Polio vaccine at primary school
"long ago". (Small white paper cup. Small amount of pink fluid, or so
memory offers).  I remember some children holding it in their mouths,
going outside and spitting it out. Why I don't recall. Likely to have
been childish bravado rather than any health and safety issues.



              Russel

2011\10\07@045515 by Michael Watterson

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On 07/10/2011 09:40, RussellMc wrote:
> 3. Looking at the page that that was taken from, I was genuinely
> amazed at the caption they chose to give it.
>
> The sitehttp://www.whale.to/     where the material came from
> is certainly an interesting one.
>
For a given definition of "interesting".

The information in general seems as practically useful as a wet paper bag for ball bearings.

XKCD seems more useful and it's only entertainment. He proves that Cancer causes Mobile Phones

2011\10\07@084116 by alan.b.pearce

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I think this cartoon sums it up for a lot of people.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news-cartoons/news/article.cfm?c_id=500814&objectid=10757093

This one also seems to have been widely reproduced.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Student-s-tribute-to-Jobs-becomes-hit-online/Article1-754551.aspx


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2011\10\07@091132 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
"Jobs' bite" is an interesting story, thanks!


On 7 October 2011 13:40, <RemoveMEalan.b.pearcespamTakeThisOuTstfc.ac.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

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