Post by thread:[OT] Some random thoughts regarding tutorials (ide

> I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the > details why this > is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). > In fact I'm > pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :) Correct me if I am wrong: the USA (and Canada) have no central registration of persons. So if someone decides to migrate from wets to east he will register himself and hence create his new (localised) identity. Identity in the USA is easily created. In my country (and I think in most European countries) pereson registration is at least somewhat centralised. You can not just appear at a registration desk and say 'here I am, I exist'. A new Dutchman can only be 'created' at the age of 0. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Wouter van Ooijen <wouter <at> voti.nl> writes: > > > I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the > > details why this > > is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). > > In fact I'm > > pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :) > > Correct me if I am wrong: the USA (and Canada) have no central > registration of persons. So if someone decides to migrate from wets to > east he will register himself and hence create his new (localised) > identity. Identity in the USA is easily created. > > In my country (and I think in most European countries) pereson > registration is at least somewhat centralised. You can not just appear > at a registration desk and say 'here I am, I exist'. A new Dutchman can > only be 'created' at the age of 0. > > Wouter van Ooijen > Yes and no. There is a central registration - Social Security Office. All banks and other institutions will require social security number as one form of ID. This number is given at age 0, or, for immigrants after application and background check. Local registration in order to obtain driver's license, which is almost universal and the only form of ID for non-financial purposes, will require proof of address. This can be a lease contract, proof of ownership of a house, or, LOL, a letter addressed to you! Driver's license office will usually require some other form of ID, e.g. birth certificate, passport (which most people do not have), social security card. I would guess that identity is as easily created in other countries as in US. Even a centralized database must have some outages, so that it may not be possible to check one's identity in real time. Sergey Dryga

Sergey Dryga wrote: {Quote hidden}> Wouter van Ooijen <wouter <at> voti.nl> writes: > > >>>I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the >>>details why this >>>is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). >>>In fact I'm >>>pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :) >> >>Correct me if I am wrong: the USA (and Canada) have no central >>registration of persons. So if someone decides to migrate from wets to >>east he will register himself and hence create his new (localised) >>identity. Identity in the USA is easily created. >> >>In my country (and I think in most European countries) pereson >>registration is at least somewhat centralised. You can not just appear >>at a registration desk and say 'here I am, I exist'. A new Dutchman can >>only be 'created' at the age of 0. >> >>Wouter van Ooijen >> > > Yes and no. > There is a central registration - Social Security Office. All banks and other > institutions will require social security number as one form of ID. This > number is given at age 0, or, for immigrants after application and background > check. Actually, it is USUALLY given at age 0. It is possible to make it all the way to 18 before you need it, since below the age of 18 it becomes a child-information-protection issue, and even schools shy away from it. You rarely need it until you start applying for college loans, anyway. I didn't get mine until I was 16, for instance, when I needed a driver's license. All it takes is a real-seeming birth certificate... And ironically enough, stealing someone's identity when they are alive is harder than assuming someone's identity when they have died. There was a huge loan scam a while back where people would use a child's SSN who died before the age of 5 or so (before they've USED their SSN) and build wonderful credit using small loans and so on. Then they apply for a house loan, give the money to a "buyer" which happens to be another stolen SSN, and poof! the money (and the people) dissapear. Until rather recently many states do not keep birth or death certificates in an easily reachable form. For birth, you often need to contact the county government where the birth occurred, and for death where they died or where they were burried. Since most Americans don't travel more than 50 miles from where they were born they are often in the same place. --Michael

Sergey Dryga wrote: >>> I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the details why >>> this is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). In >>> fact I'm pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :) >> >> Correct me if I am wrong: the USA (and Canada) have no central >> registration of persons. So if someone decides to migrate from wets to >> east he will register himself and hence create his new (localised) >> identity. Identity in the USA is easily created. I think one of the main differences (and I can only compare to Germany in Europe) is that in Germany, the local registration is tracked. So if you move to a place and don't show any de-registration from a previous place, you of course raise a flag. I don't know how the exact procedures are, but this type of tracking doesn't happen in the USA. This has to do with the very strong federal nature of US public life. > There is a central registration - Social Security Office. All banks and > other institutions will require social security number as one form of > ID. That's probably the most serious problem in the USA. The SSN (Social Security Number) is not and can not be an ID, yet it is used as an ID. The thing is that due to the strongly federal nature of the average US mind, the idea of a federal ID is practically impossible to even discuss. Yet the need for a federal ID is so strong in practical life that the SSN has taken the place of this federal ID -- but without being anything like an ID. It's a number, maybe useful as a key in a database because the uniqueness is somewhat guaranteed (but not 100% IIRC). But it can never identify anybody. One of the reasons it's so easy to steal identities in the USA is because of the strong association of identity with a mere number. > I would guess that identity is as easily created in other countries as in > US. I don't think so. For the two reasons cited above, it is much more difficult in some other countries. Of course you always can get forged documents, but that's then usually a bit more complex than it is in the USA. I don't have any numbers handy, but it seems that identity theft is not a major problem in Europe; much less at least than it is in the USA. Gerhard

Wouter van Ooien Wrote: > > > In my country (and I think in most European countries) > > pereson registration is at least somewhat centralised. You > > can not just appear at a registration desk and say 'here I > > am, I exist'. A new Dutchman can only be 'created' at the age of 0. > I know that anti-terrorism legislation makes banks file a 'copy' of an original ID card or passport of an account holder in the Netherlands and probably even Europe. I am not sure about the rest of the world. I have my doubts. This should make ID theft a little bit harder. If the bank does not trust that you are who you say you are, they can match your ID with the 'copy' they have on file and see if you are who you really say you are (does the picture match?). It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Sean.

> I know that anti-terrorism legislation makes banks file a 'copy' of an > original ID card or passport of an account holder in the > Netherlands For entirely different purposes my employer needs a copy of my passport. Stupid burocrats, I even had to copy the outside page which has no distinctive information at all! Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu