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'[OT] Second Chance...'
1999\09\23@165240 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Ok, for those who don't believe in magic, what about this one?
Remember the words?
"Give me a lever and a ... and I will move the World"
Check it out and tell me why this don't work?
http://www.ustr.net/jpg/moto2.jpg
Just complete the blanks:
Because the .. and .... ......... is the same.

1999\09\23@170658 by TIM

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just asking is it because it is all equal weight in the balls and something
has to keep it in momentium? remember i did not go to  MIT......sorry was
not fortunite.
{Original Message removed}

1999\09\23@190612 by Nick Taylor

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It DOES work!!! Your second perpetual motion machine in ONE day!

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> Ok, for those who don't believe in magic, what about this one?
> Remember the words?
> "Give me a lever and a ... and I will move the World"
> Check it out and tell me why this don't work?
> http://www.ustr.net/jpg/moto2.jpg
> Just complete the blanks:
> Because the .. and .... ......... is the same.

1999\09\24@063904 by gdaniel

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> Ok, for those who don't believe in magic, what about this one?
> Remember the words?
> "Give me a lever and a ... and I will move the World"
> Check it out and tell me why this don't work?
> http://www.ustr.net/jpg/moto2.jpg
> Just complete the blanks:
> Because the .. and .... ......... is the same.

More balls/fluid(low leverage) on left side cancel few balls on right
side(high leverage)
Red line showing radial distribution of averaged centre of gravity each
slot fails to clearly indicate closer distribution of masses on left
side.
Diagrams would be less missleading if red lines were thickened in
proportion to proximal distribution of weights relative to neighbours.

Usually in "super de-duper extra special inventions" there is special
jargon invented also in order to confuse a negative proof (just like the
religions)

G.D

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

1999\09\24@093609 by Russell McMahon

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Hmmm, thought I'd have to rise to the implicit challenge here but then I see
its just Graham :-) (flame shields up :-))
And he's right!

>Usually in "super de-duper extra special inventions" there is special
>jargon invented also in order to confuse a negative proof (just like the
>religions)


Religions do tend to invent jargon. Whether this is most usually to confuse
a negative proof is another issue. When you are dealing with concepts which
are foreign or new or substantially outside the reigning paradigm then it
often makes sense to bring in a whole new terminology. Certainly this is
what happens in many scientific disciplines too. Try and understand
terminology from medicine or materials science (do YOU know what stress and
strain are) or .... as an outsider. Many of our modern words originated in
the Bible, many with Paul (nee Saul) of Tarsus. Grab a dictionary and often
you'll find they refer you back to him for the meaning. What you can explain
in 10 standard words often can be handled with one jargon term which all who
are interested come to understand. Stack, Grace, Indirection, forgiveness,
stack, accumulator, index pointer, sin, redemption, parsing, drag along and
beating (in a computer, not a religious sense :-)), ... And, I ask you,
RETLW??! :-) - try a FULL description of that in 10 standard words.

If anyone wants any Christian comment without (too much) super de-duper
jargon (including Graham), please feel most free to apply here :-)




RM

1999\09\24@095254 by M. Adam Davis

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It /does/ work... when friction doesn't exist.

Assuming the extire device were frictionless, and there was a
gravitational pull downward, then one could put energy into the device
which would cause an acceleration.  The resulting velocity would never
lower without another external force.  Of course, you could get the same
exact results by getting rid of the water or ball bearings... ;-)

As far as completing the blanks,  I would say that it's because the
friction of moving the balls on one side to the middle plus the friction
of moving the balls on the other side toward the end, plus the energy
required to lift the balls that are at the center and those at the
bottom(which are still at the edge) is less than or equal to the energy
given by the falling balls (in the center, and at the edge once it's
past the middle).

Given that there is aditional friction in the shaft of the assembly, and
air resistance, this machine will only run on it's own until it has used
up the energy initially given it.

-Adam

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> Ok, for those who don't believe in magic, what about this one?
> Remember the words?
> "Give me a lever and a ... and I will move the World"
> Check it out and tell me why this don't work?
> http://www.ustr.net/jpg/moto2.jpg
> Just complete the blanks:
> Because the .. and .... ......... is the same.

1999\09\24@112102 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
> As far as completing the blanks,  I would say that it's because the
> friction of moving the balls on one side to the middle plus the friction
> of moving the balls on the other side toward the end, plus the energy
> required to lift the balls that are at the center and those at the
> bottom(which are still at the edge) is less than or equal to the energy
> given by the falling balls (in the center, and at the edge once it's
> past the middle).
>
> Given that there is aditional friction in the shaft of the assembly, and
> air resistance, this machine will only run on it's own until it has used
> up the energy initially given it.

The simple explanation tend to be the correct one, and the way I see the
answer is:
A moto-continue system is something that does not waste any energy to
keep running, or spinning, that reaches stability of energy and
movement. In real several attempts to create a moto-continue system is
just trying to eliminate the gravity effect, so friction. A simply piece
of rock (meteor, planet, whatever) spinning in the cosmos is already in
this situation, there is no energy gain or wasted. There are some
physics laws that can't be changed, well, for a while... :)... remember
that a few centuries ago the Earth was the center of the universe...

> > Because the .. and .... ......... are the same.
The moving balls machine doesn't work "Because the up and down movement
distances are the same" for equal balls.
The lever theory, that can pull up a ball while other with a longer
radius is dropping is false, since the lever effect is a balance of
"Left Weight x Left Lever Distance" versus "Right Weight x Right Lever
Distance". In this example there is no gain or lost of energy, the same
energy that is generated when the balls at the right goes down, is
necessary to move up the balls at the left, there is only an elongation
of the trajectory of the right balls, nothing else.  If you can find a
way to *curve space* and let the left balls arrive the top of the wheel
in a smaller vertical distance (forget the horizontal movement, it
doesn't count), then it would works very nice.  A way to do a
"curved-space" is for example reducing the earth gravity effect on the
left side of the wheels, so the right side gravity will works as an
accelerator engine.  This is why the tricky question about the magnetic
shield in the other moto-thingy.

The tricky thing is that people always try to understand the effects of
the details of the "proposed" moto machine, and forget to see the basic
operation.  If that machine works, than a simple circular tube full of
moving balls should also rotate forever inside the pipe. In the process
of understanding how it works, small details are forgotten and overseen,
and those are the important ones.

As someone already said, increasing the details and using not common
words or figures confuse people and make them believe in anything, *just
because they want to believe*, because it would be good if real.  Right
of wrong (I am not the judge) religion use this marketing approach, if
not, how they will sell (and receive payment) for a product they don't
have to deliver? no flames please, just a figurative way to explain the
subject.

Want an example?  Years ago when those two guys affirmed they found a
way to Cold Fusion, I got happy and thought "this is the beginning of a
new era for World's energy", I believed, as most of the World, and I did
it because it was to be a good thing, something that humanity needs it
desperately.

This is why we always need to be aware that everything works in an
equilibrium, and nothing is free, so be aware of free things, there is
always a payment for it.  As good is the free thing, as much you will
pay sooner or later.

Do you think that to get married is nice? yes it is... look for the
later payment about it... :)

Wagner.

1999\09\24@113730 by Andy Kunz

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face
>physics laws that can't be changed, well, for a while... :)... remember
>that a few centuries ago the Earth was the center of the universe...

More correctly, the human population of the Earth still is the center of
the universe.  From God's point of interest, of course.

>This is why we always need to be aware that everything works in an
>equilibrium, and nothing is free, so be aware of free things, there is
>always a payment for it.  As good is the free thing, as much you will
>pay sooner or later.

Does that hold true for Internet access?

>Do you think that to get married is nice? yes it is... look for the
>later payment about it... :)

Then look at the priceless advantages.  It's a bargain. Not as good as the
bargain of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but it's the
metaphor that He used!

Andy

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1999\09\24@144550 by Erik Reikes

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At 11:02 AM 9/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>The simple explanation tend to be the correct one, and the way I see the
>answer is:
>A moto-continue system is something that does not waste any energy to
>keep running, or spinning, that reaches stability of energy and
>movement. In real several attempts to create a moto-continue system is
>just trying to eliminate the gravity effect, so friction. A simply piece
>of rock (meteor, planet, whatever) spinning in the cosmos is already in
>this situation, there is no energy gain or wasted. There are some

Not really... a couple of minor details (almost unmeasurable, but
perpetual=infinity= a real long time).

Your rock spinning in the cosmos has a temperature and is therefore
radiating electromagnetic energy.  The rotational kinetic energy also
causes it to radiate some energy as well.  Eventually (sometime after you
are dead) it will stop rotating due to this energy loss.  Something else to
think about re: stopping friction.  There is no such thing as a perfect
vacuum.  In deep space there is something like 1-2 atoms per cubic meter.
As you bump into those you will slow down.

-Erik Reikes

1999\09\24@145149 by Erik Reikes

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A paraphrase from Mr Robert Heinlen :

"There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of life after death.  Then again,
there is non to the contrary.  Soon enough you will know, so why fret about
it?"



-Erik Reikes

At 11:34 AM 9/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\24@145358 by Andy Kunz

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>Your rock spinning in the cosmos has a temperature and is therefore
>radiating electromagnetic energy.  The rotational kinetic energy also
>causes it to radiate some energy as well.  Eventually (sometime after you
>are dead) it will stop rotating due to this energy loss.  Something else to
>think about re: stopping friction.  There is no such thing as a perfect
>vacuum.  In deep space there is something like 1-2 atoms per cubic meter.

And do you know it takes less than the billions of years that some people
would have to believe in to lose that energy?

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
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1999\09\24@193926 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Erik Reikes wrote:
[snip]
> Your rock spinning in the cosmos has a temperature and is therefore
> radiating electromagnetic energy.  The rotational kinetic energy also
> causes it to radiate some energy as well.  Eventually (sometime after you
> are dead) it will stop rotating due to this energy loss.  Something else to
> think about re: stopping friction.  There is no such thing as a perfect
> vacuum.  In deep space there is something like 1-2 atoms per cubic meter.
> As you bump into those you will slow down.

I don't care if it will stop spinning in 1000 years, I just would like
to have a large mass spinning to "expose & block" a large amount of
solar wind and irradiation over a vast quantity of gas in a chamber. Gas
expansion/retraction could be used to generate movement, thus energy (in
space).

In real, there is a natural difficult to understand a free (almost)
rotational model. If you think about the tangential escape forces that
act over each single atom all the time. The curved movement is clearly a
demonstration of the free inertia suffering angular deviation what
should (I think) create an internal atomic friction and mass instability
toward the external part of the mass.  It turns to be worse to
understand if you include a vector velocity in the subject, what creates
a speedier side at the mass, the side that in the rotational model goes
toward the vectorial destination.

Thinking about it, the earth's surface speed (relative to a fixed point
in the universe) is higher at the external side (night), and slower at
the internal (day). But it can be reversed, isn't?  Put the sun in the
middle, earth rotating around the sun in a horizontal plane (clockwise -
looking from the top), if it rotates over its shaft also clockwise then
the "day side" has a slower surface speed.  Would this speed alteration
change (even in small measurement) our gravity effect (tangential escape
effect)? It could means that during the day I can have few more
milligrams?  If variations in speed changes energy associated to a mass,
then what happens to the energy associated to a single atom in a
rotational model that also has a vectored inertia, when this atom
changes speed twice during each model rotation? Is this energy
transferred from one model side to another back and forth?

I have those doubts, you see, I can't sleep sometimes at night because
of it... well, the bank account also helps it, but... it can be a "light
head" during the night, few milligrams...

;)

1999\09\24@201046 by Simon Redwood

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Reply To: "Simon Redwood" <@spam@spredwoodKILLspamspamsri-net.demon.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)]
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But surely if 1-2 atoms were to hit you from behind would you not speed up
again ?

> At 11:02 AM 9/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
> There is no such thing as a perfect vacuum.  In deep space there is
> something like 1-2 atoms per cubic meter. As you bump into those you will slow
down.
>
> -Erik Reikes
>


--
Regards,
Simon

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1999\09\24@202538 by Erik Reikes

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At 01:10 AM 9/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Reply To: "Simon Redwood" <RemoveMEspredwoodTakeThisOuTspamsri-net.demon.co.uk>
>X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Length: 430
>
>
>But surely if 1-2 atoms were to hit you from behind would you not speed up
>again ?
>
>

I think its you hitting the atoms that would drain the energy.  The atoms
hitting you would, over time, have a net 0 effect on your rotational
velocity.  The atoms just sitting there, however, would be hit and sent
screaming off in the other direction (with some tiny but probably
measurable portion of your rotational K energy).

Now granted, this has been happening to the planets in this solar system
for several billion years, and they haven't stopped.  It would take a real
long time, but when you are talking about "perpetual" motion, a "real long
time" is not very long (I'd think, in taking the broad view, it approaches
zero...  Don't spend too much time thinking about infinity, it stunts your
growth.

-Erik Reikes

1999\09\30@005515 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
I don't know if we are still continuing this prepetual motion thread,but it
occurred to me that one doesn't need a micro-machined piezo box to
"extract" energy from the thermal motion of atoms. What about a simple
resistor? Every resistor has a Johnson noise voltage present across it,and
if you had a perfect rectifier (or could place MANY resistors in series to
add up all the rms amplitudes of the noise),you should be able to rectify
this and charge capacitors with it.

That is, if you can violate thermodynamics. It DOES seem to me that both
this AND the piezo box would violate the requirement that, on average,
objects don't spontaneously cool,giving up energy the the ambient
environment. In fact,I thought that maxwell's demon did this as well.
Maxwell's demon was supposed to select out molecules based on their energy
WITHOUT itself using up any energy,right? Sure, one can make a heat pump
which requires energy (which the vortex tube is,right?) but AFAIK, no one
has ever made a device to extract useful energy from thermal motion without
using a cold sink, cooler than the source of heat.

Sean

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