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'[OT] Scarey but funny...'
2006\08\04@103117 by William Couture

face picon face
img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg

and

http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2006\08\04@104821 by Steven Howes

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Will save them incase my boss complains




-----Original Message-----
From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On Behalf
Of William Couture
Sent: 04 August 2006 15:27
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT] Scarey but funny...

http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg

and

http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?
straycatblues.petfinder.org

2006\08\04@105335 by Martin K

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face
I'll bet you $1 not one cable is labeled.
--
Martin K

William Couture wrote:
> http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg
>
> and
>
> http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm
>
>  

2006\08\04@110121 by Sean Schouten

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Oh-My.... Talk about mismanagement and disasters waiting to happen. Didn't I
just see our good old friend Murphy in one of those pictures? I wonder if
they even have the wires labeled... either that or the -guru- that wired up
the place has some severe form of good memory and knows where every single
wire leads to.

Sean

2006\08\04@111137 by Tony Smith

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>
> I'll bet you $1 not one cable is labeled.
> --
> Martin K
>


Correctly or incorrectly?

The hay bale picture was quite impressive.  Yellow cable must have been on
special that day.

Tony

2006\08\04@124214 by Peter Todd

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On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 10:26:57AM -0400, William Couture wrote:
> http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg

That's actually not CAT5 at all, it's a close up of wirewrap cable...

Or so I hope!

> and
>
> http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm
>
> --
> Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org
> --

2006\08\04@135659 by Martin K

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That situation is EXACTLY why they make cable runs that look like 2ft
wide troughs hanging from the ceiling - along with 15 different colors
of wire,  labelers, etc.
The worst one (besides the flood situations) are the racks that look
like they have mini switches or hubs just hanging.. I don't see any room
for airflow on anything. I'm glad I don't work there.
--
Martin K

Sean Schouten wrote:
> Oh-My.... Talk about mismanagement and disasters waiting to happen. Didn't I
> just see our good old friend Murphy in one of those pictures? I wonder if
> they even have the wires labeled... either that or the -guru- that wired up
> the place has some severe form of good memory and knows where every single
> wire leads to.
>
> Sean
>  

2006\08\04@141750 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I think the worst of the bunch is the bare hand under the raised floor in
the water with the power distribution. Either a death wish or incredibly
stupid...
I have witnessed the problem.... at a government location of course.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Couture" <bcouturespamKILLspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: [OT] Scarey but funny...


> http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg
>
> and
>
> http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm
>
> --
> Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org
> --

2006\08\04@142914 by David VanHorn

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On 8/4/06, John Ferrell <EraseMEjohnferrellspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I think the worst of the bunch is the bare hand under the raised floor in
> the water with the power distribution. Either a death wish or incredibly
> stupid...
> I have witnessed the problem.... at a government location of course.


Had a flash-flood at field day one year, a pretty good downpour left us
standing in about 10" of water, and once we got over the initial panic and
had the rigs covered, we realized that the 110V power strips were completely
submerged.

Of course fresh water is a lousy conductor, and everything was actually
wired right with earth ground, but it was an interesting moment or two.

2006\08\04@191836 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
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Tony,

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:10:35 +1000, Tony Smith wrote:

>...
> The hay bale picture was quite impressive.  Yellow cable must have been on
> special that day.

I don't see a problem with that - they are obviously following a standard for colour coding:  Yellow = Ethernet!  :-)))

I've seen cabinets not much better than this - I was called in to a client to find out why computers in particular parts of their building
had poor performance compared to the rest - by a proper process of investigation I determined that it was definitely the network that was
the problem (their IT people didn't believe the users) and then they got it sorted out.  But they insisted that having hundreds of cables
draped out of the cabinets and across the floor and down through open tiles into the underfloor was the only way they could set it up!

I realised ages ago why this sort of thing happens - people design the cabinets based on their contents - the Hub cabinet(s), the Comms
cabinet(s), the patch-panel cabinet(s) etc. so obviously they have to be cross-connected.  I design them vertically interleaved, say Hub /
Patch Panel / Phones, so the average patch cable length is about a foot, rather than a couple of metres!  You must keep the cable lengths
as short as possible, or mayhem ensues, especially if you have to change something.  Each U of cabinet can have 24 sockets (of whatever
type) so a typical 42U cabinet could have up to a thousand sockets, so a thousand cable-ends.  Unless you arrange things so that the
cables stay within the cabinet as much as possible, you could have a thousand cables leaving the cabinet - and I've yet to see a cabinet
system designed to handle that!

So the upshot is:  Place things that are to be connected together in the same cabinet, as close as possible!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\08\04@231520 by William Chops Westfield

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On Aug 4, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Howard Winter wrote:

> But they insisted that having hundreds of cables draped out of
> the cabinets and across the floor and down through open tiles
> into the underfloor was the only way they could set it up!
>
It won't pass safety inspections (OSHA, here in the US) either,
as we keep getting reminded by our Lab administrators.

BillW

2006\08\05@013531 by Yigit Turgut

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Liquid N is flowing through those cables in case of a rise in the temp.

I bet this picture is taken at Porsche's server room.lol.

2006\08\05@045546 by Howard Winter

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Bill,

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:15:18 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

>
> On Aug 4, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Howard Winter wrote:
>
> > But they insisted that having hundreds of cables draped out of
> > the cabinets and across the floor and down through open tiles
> > into the underfloor was the only way they could set it up!
> >
> It won't pass safety inspections (OSHA, here in the US) either,
> as we keep getting reminded by our Lab administrators.

Somehow server rooms tend to get ignored in this situation, apart from making sure there's a fire escape, because people don't "work" in
there.  It always annoys me that people set up "server cupboards" that are almost impossible to get into, let alone work in, because
there's are only ever someone in there when things need to be fiddled with, not on a day-to-day basis.  But when I'm in there I need space
to work!  :-#

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\08\07@040324 by Alan B. Pearce

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> http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg
>
>and
>
> http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm

Isn't it just great when they use the same coloured wire everywhere ....

Trouble is the wire in the other colours is just so much more expensive ...

2006\08\07@110349 by Martin K

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redecrescendo0gihm5.jpg
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://www.fresh99.com/messy-networks.htm
>>    
>
> Isn't it just great when they use the same coloured wire everywhere ....
>
> Trouble is the wire in the other colours is just so much more expensive ...
>
>  
They made it bright yellow so you could find which one you wanted easily.

:-p
--
MK

2006\08\07@124712 by Matt Pobursky

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On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:03:46 -0400, Martin K wrote:
>> Isn't it just great when they use the same coloured wire
>> everywhere ....
>>
>> Trouble is the wire in the other colours is just so much more
>> expensive ...
>>
>>
> They made it bright yellow so you could find which one you wanted
> easily.

On the surface the photos are easy to poke fun at but in reality no
network closet I've ever worked on with a large amount of connections
(say >100) looked any different.

Once you get past a few dozen cables, making them different colors
doesn't help much. You just end up with a few dozen red, blue,
yellow, green, grey, etc. cables all mixed together. And adding
labels to them just makes them hard to pull and route through the
cable looms or bundles. Labeled cables are also problematic when
replaced later (and they do get replaced from time to time).

The best solution I've seen (and use) is to make a routing/connection
chart that includes "FROM" and "TO" connections in tabular form. It's
just like a wire list for any other cabling system and allows you to
quickly find out where any one cable is supposed to be connected. You
can make them in Excel with very little trouble and it allows then to
be searchable and printable in a nice format for hard copy
documentation.

If you have such a cable routing document you can quickly pinpoint
where any one cable is routed From/To should you need to replace it
or change it's routing. Of course this all falls apart if you don't
update the documentation when you make changes or you didn't do it in
the first place ...

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems


2006\08\07@142455 by Martin K

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Hi Matt
I mentioned before that, I believe, the proper way to do this is to have
cable races vertically oriented leading to a very spacious horizontal
raceway above all the racks.
I'm an engineer at a small radio station and we have hundreds of
balanced audio cables and CAT5 all over. No 'big' problems. There just
isn't really a need for a rack room to be that messy.
--
Martin K

Matt Pobursky wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\08\07@153029 by Nate Duehr

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Matt Pobursky wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:03:46 -0400, Martin K wrote:
>>> Isn't it just great when they use the same coloured wire
>>> everywhere ....
>>>
>>> Trouble is the wire in the other colours is just so much more
>>> expensive ...
>>>
>>>
>> They made it bright yellow so you could find which one you wanted
>> easily.
>
> On the surface the photos are easy to poke fun at but in reality no
> network closet I've ever worked on with a large amount of connections
> (say >100) looked any different.

I *have* seen closets with a lot more cables, done right, that DON'T
look like this.  The problem is laziness.

There's no technical reason for the messes in these photos.  With proper
layout, cable management trays/raceways in the racks, etc... it CAN look
organized and neat.  AND labeled.

I can send photos of beautifully done systems (if I can "sanitize" them
a bit removing identifying markings) that have 1000 or more cables in them.

Anyone installing cables like the mess in these photos is completely
unprofessional and doing a very very bad job.  Worse, they probably
don't even KNOW that, because bosses don't have any real-world
experience doing the work and have no idea a cable plant IS NOT SUPPOSED
TO LOOK LIKE THAT.  Ever.

> Once you get past a few dozen cables, making them different colors
> doesn't help much. You just end up with a few dozen red, blue,
> yellow, green, grey, etc. cables all mixed together. And adding
> labels to them just makes them hard to pull and route through the
> cable looms or bundles. Labeled cables are also problematic when
> replaced later (and they do get replaced from time to time).

There are label makers that create virtually flat "wrap-around" labels
that are tough and durable.  NO, we're not talking crappy P-Touch labels
here.

Kroy is one example of a labelmaker for cabling that's worth buying at
usually six times the price of a P-touch.  All good professional cable
installation companies will own something similar.  Most buy labelers
that are typewriter sized and one guy types labels all evening in his
hotel room for installation the next day.

On one installation job, I personally made over 2000 labels with a
P-touch and clear tape that will NEVER come off some cables at a large
telco that demanded certain labeling standards, and I'll never do that
again.  P-Touch labels are not considered "permanent" enough for most
serious cable labeling work.  Walking a technician on the phone through
finding a bad cable in those sites now is a piece of cake.

Typically what you see is... people with a telco/Bell System background
are labeling and dressing out cables correctly.  People from the
data/computer background are utter complete slobs.  They think the data
center should look like the back of their desk.

Never hire a computer guy to manage your cable plant in the computer
room unless they've been through the telco wringer or are just plain
picky about cable standards and labeling.  Data guys are slobs in their
cable plants.

> The best solution I've seen (and use) is to make a routing/connection
> chart that includes "FROM" and "TO" connections in tabular form. It's
> just like a wire list for any other cabling system and allows you to
> quickly find out where any one cable is supposed to be connected. You
> can make them in Excel with very little trouble and it allows then to
> be searchable and printable in a nice format for hard copy
> documentation.

Actually putting this on a wrap-around label on the end of EVERY cable
(From and To information) is best.  Then you also keep a list.  And you
hang that list in the cabinet from the door with each major system's
cabinets in a waterproof jacket.  (Ever had a boiler break three floors
up and flood your closet?  Yeah... I have.)

> If you have such a cable routing document you can quickly pinpoint
> where any one cable is routed From/To should you need to replace it
> or change it's routing. Of course this all falls apart if you don't
> update the documentation when you make changes or you didn't do it in
> the first place ...

Telcos have had this type of from/to/which cabinet/which row/which
cross-connect bay type of labeling and documentation for decades.  It
floors me that Data Center guys still seem to be "learning" it like it's
something new.

I'd fire anyone who left a cabling closet in the state these photos are
in.

There's simply NO reason for that type of sloppy work at all.

Want to get REAL picky?  Go work in a telco environment where tie-wraps
and velcro ties are NOT allowed... wax string (9-cord/11-cord), and
"nothing" is not an option.  You lace in every cable added or removed
and the bundles are appropriately labeled and tight and don't move, even
in earthquakes.  :-)  Their cable labeling standard even calls out which
colors are allowed.  Anything that can hurt/kill you is labeled in
"Vermilion".  Not red.  Vermilion.  (Yeah, I still think that's some
engineer's idea of a joke left over from long ago when the cable
labeling standards document was written.)

Label a cable with blue on white... you'll get a write-up at the
end-of-installation inspection.  That's a reserved color.

Black on white, specific font sizes required (not everyone can see that
dinky little font some people label cables with) and all information on
every cable correct, with the local (From) address on the top of the
label, and the remote (To) address on the bottom of the label, complete
with row/cabinet code, and equipment identifier and port number.

Nate

2006\08\07@181125 by Peter Todd

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On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:28:39PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
> There are label makers that create virtually flat "wrap-around" labels
> that are tough and durable.  NO, we're not talking crappy P-Touch labels
> here.
>
> Kroy is one example of a labelmaker for cabling that's worth buying at
> usually six times the price of a P-touch.  All good professional cable
> installation companies will own something similar.  Most buy labelers
> that are typewriter sized and one guy types labels all evening in his
> hotel room for installation the next day.

Got any opinion, good or bad, on the Dymo RhinoPro labelers? At work we
just got a RhinoPro 5000 to label the stacks of audio cables we have.
Initially I tried using a standard business labeler, but of course the
adhesive didn't hold and the labels popped off. I've been labeling
cables using the 3/4" flexible nylon labels which seems to be holding up
for now.

Our system is to label each cable uniquely with it's length in ft and a
two digit number on both ends. This is kept track of in a big text file.
Most of our cables get used in semi-permenant setups, for the permenant
setups I plan to also include labels saying exactly what the cable is
for. ("MIX OUT LEFT", "SPKR EAST", etc.)

Right now our cables look like a computer guy strung 'em up... Namely
me!

--
http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\08\08@030442 by Nate Duehr

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Peter Todd wrote:

> Got any opinion, good or bad, on the Dymo RhinoPro labelers? At work we
> just got a RhinoPro 5000 to label the stacks of audio cables we have.

Sorry no, haven't tried one yet.  We almost bought one during a rush
project but ended up using other means to label things that time around.

Nate

2006\08\13@084219 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I am inclined to agree. It looks like a scaled up version of the SMS or SLT
boards that were the norm in my time at IBM. That wiring was individual
strands and cross talk a definite possibility. Tight wires were prone to
insulation damage. Deep piles of wire were difficult to work with. Wire
lists that indicated the ends were all that was normally needed for
maintenance. Wire lists that included "vias" were used by the automated
wiring machines.

What looks like a mess to the world in general is sometimes an easily
maintained system. The wires are not important, the connections are!

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

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