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'[OT] Saving the world by consuming more fuel?'
2012\03\30@063855 by Tamas Rudnai

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Hi everyone,

Recently I had an experiments on removing the Diesel Particular Filter
(DPF) from my car. In modern Diesel engines this is very similar to the
'Catalyst' converters to the Petrol (Gas) counterparts. Manufacturers (and
eco engineers) are claiming that the filter would prevent releasing
diesel particles to the air, which is fine. However, after removing the
filter I have noticed that the fuel consumption is much better, it is 61
mpg (Imperial, or 51 us mpg, or 4.5 l/100km). Previously (with the DPF
still in) this figure was way worse, maybe I could achieve 40 mpg (33 us
mpg), which is not entirely surprising as the filter is basically a
blockage in the exhausting pipe system -- causing the engine work harder to
push the exhausting gas through that.

The question obviously is how burning more fuel is more "environment safe"?
In my mind it is purely wrong.

Tama

2012\03\30@074017 by smplx

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On Fri, 30 Mar 2012, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I thought the "Diesel Particular Filter" actually burned off the carbon particles thus generating more C02 than if they were actually expelled into the environment. Maybe I got it wrong. Anyone know how often 'one' is supposed to dismantle the filter and remove the accumulated carbon?

:-)

Regards
Sergio Masci

2012\03\30@080610 by cdb

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On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:39:34 +0100 (BST), smplx wrote:
:: Anyone know how often 'one' is
:: supposed to dismantle the filter and remove the accumulated carbon?

My Peugeot 207 (2010) is under normal driving (more than 40MPH /60klmh) every 180 Mm hmm try 180,000 km.
Supposedly if fuel consumption is high it could eb the filter was blocked or contaminated due to low speed driving.

Colin
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2012\03\30@081613 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

The particulate filter accumulates the filth that diesels pump out until the engine control system detects a significant rise in exhaust back pressure..  At this point the filter is "regenerated"; i.e. the carbon deposits are burnt off by a rise in exhaust gas temperature which is controlled from the engine management.  Some cars use a catalytic additive (EOLYS fluid) to lower the temperature at which the regeneration process can work.

DPF problems are mainly caused in cars that spend most of their lives being driven sedately, or in traffic in cities.  In this case the DPF may not get properly regenerated as the engine is never loaded enough to cause the higher EGT's required.  A regular Italian tune up means the DPF will regenerate correctly and have far less impact on engine performance and fuel economy.

Mike

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2012\03\30@102456 by John Ferrell

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I am clueless on this subject!
Tell me what car and I will go learn something new...

On 3/30/2012 6:30 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
“During times of universal deceit,
  Telling the TRUTH becomes a revolutionary act”
     George Orwell

2012\03\30@104835 by Picbits Sales

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My wife has had around 14 new Turbo Diesel cars over the past few years and has never had a DPF regen. I have tried explaining to her that there is a position inbetween full throttle and foot off throttle but she doesn't believe me ;-)

Dom


> DPF problems are mainly caused in cars that spend most of their lives
> being driven sedately, or in traffic in cities.  In this case the DPF may
> not get properly regenerated as the engine is never loaded enough to cause
> the higher EGT's required.  A regular Italian tune up means the DPF will
> regenerate correctly and have far less impact on engine performance and
> fuel economy.
>
> Mike
>
> =======================================================================

2012\03\30@111724 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, Mar 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> However, after removing the
> filter I have noticed that the fuel consumption is much better, it is 61
> mpg (Imperial, or 51 us mpg, or 4.5 l/100km). Previously (with the DPF
> still in) this figure was way worse, maybe I could achieve 40 mpg (33 us
> mpg), which is not entirely surprising as the filter is basically a
> blockage in the exhausting pipe system -- causing the engine work harder
> to
> push the exhausting gas through that.

It's broken. When it's functioning properly it does not block the
exhaust. Most exhaust systems are well-designed and you should not have
an increase in fuel economy by removing a component. Do you have a
warranty? Emissions-related parts have a 70,000 (or something equally
large) mile warranty here. The on-board diagnostics should have alerted
you with a "check engine" light a long time ago.

Bob

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2012\03\30@115546 by Sean Breheny

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I am curious here: where would all the extra energy be going? is the
backpressure causing incomplete burning and fuel is being lost without
all the energy being extracted from it, or is the engine becoming much
less efficient and all the extra energy is going into heat somewhere?
If it is the latter, it seems likely that something would have
overheated. I suppose that maybe the cooling system could handle it
but it certainly would be a big increase in waste heat.

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Bob Blick <.....bobblickKILLspamspam.....ftml.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\30@115906 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 30 March 2012 15:24, John Ferrell <EraseMEjferrell13spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTtriad.rr.com> wrote:

> I am clueless on this subject!
> Tell me what car and I will go learn something new...
>

Mine is a Mazda 6 with a 2.0 Turbo Diesel (143 bhp version). But DPF
problem is with literately all cars that has DPF on it. As mentioned by
Michael you cannot drive these cars in town for long, but this was the
small print which was never raised up when you select the car and buy the
more expensive diesel engine one to save up on fuel.

Regeneration means you need to drive the car on a motorway for 20 minutes
with more than 2k RPM -- this one barely reach this at 70mph (which is the
legal speed limit here in the UK), so you need to shift down to 5 or even 4
-- but then again, burning more fuel just to save up environment is just
not right! Also they say in regeneration process the computer pushes more
fuel to increase the temperature in the DPF system. This system is plain
wrong in my opinion.

Tamas



{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\30@120442 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 30 March 2012 13:06, cdb <colinspamspam_OUTbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

> My Peugeot 207 (2010) is under normal driving (more than 40MPH /60klmh)
> every 180 Mm hmm try 180,000 km.
>

Yes, Mazda says 55 mpg for it officially, and that is when you drive at
50-55mph (around 90 km/h). But then I was doing 70mph after DPF removal and
according to the computer the average consumption was 7.4 l / 100 miles
(weird measurement from Mazda), which is 61 mpg (Imperial) or 51 mpg (us).
Previously with the half way clogged DPF this number was 11-12 l / 100
miles (39 imperial mpg or 33 us mpg).

Tama

2012\03\30@121131 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 30 March 2012 16:55, Sean Breheny <@spam@shb7KILLspamspamcornell.edu> wrote:

> I am curious here: where would all the extra energy be going? is the
>

My assumption was that the engine needs to push the exhausting gas through
this filter and that takes quite a few horse power out, so removing that
DPF you have more energy left for driving the car itself. But again, this
was only my speculation.

Tamas




{Quote hidden}

> > --

2012\03\30@122635 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Sean Breheny
> Sent: 30 March 2012 16:56
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Saving the world by consuming more fuel?
>
> I am curious here: where would all the extra energy be going? is the
> backpressure causing incomplete burning and fuel is being lost without
> all the energy being extracted from it, or is the engine becoming much
> less efficient and all the extra energy is going into heat somewhere?
> If it is the latter, it seems likely that something would have
> overheated. I suppose that maybe the cooling system could handle it
> but it certainly would be a big increase in waste heat.

Pumping losses.  Energy is lost simply by having higher pressures in the cylinder during the exhaust stroke caused by exhaust restriction.  The early catalytic converters on petrol(gas) engines caused a similar drop in economy and performance, though modern designs are much better.

Mike

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2012\03\30@122815 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, Mar 30, 2012, at 04:59 PM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> Mine is a Mazda 6 with a 2.0 Turbo Diesel (143 bhp version). But DPF
> problem is with literately all cars that has DPF on it. As mentioned by
> Michael you cannot drive these cars in town for long, but this was the
> small print which was never raised up when you select the car and buy the
> more expensive diesel engine one to save up on fuel.

Is there no warranty?

Bob

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2012\03\30@123426 by John Gardner

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Sean - All of the above.

Bob's right about properly designed exhaust systems being
power-neutral over the design rpm range of the engine.

That's not to say that passenger car exhaust systems don't
reduce volumetric efficiency; thus (potentiallly) power & fuel
economy, but modern, properly designed systems are fairly
free-flowing.

The price of this happy situation is complexity - There are
plenty of things to go wrong, all of which degrade power &
fuel economy.

Most of this is covered by warranty, at least until you get to
the dealer & are told it is'nt, & will cost $1500 to fix.

On the bright side, do your due diligence & 8 years from now
you may well get a $11.82 settlement check from the class-
action attorney...

Jac

2012\03\30@133727 by Sean Breheny

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Yes, but the energy to pump the gases must be "going" somewhere -
presumably into higher temperature exhaust gases? It would seem to me
that this would likely make something fail eventually much sooner than
it would otherwise fail.

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Michael Rigby-Jones
<TakeThisOuTMichael.Rigby-JonesEraseMEspamspam_OUToclaro.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\30@143437 by John Gardner

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Yep. Higher temp everything. An IC engine can be thought of as
an ill-conceived air pump.

Air compressor design equations will tell you a lot.

Jac

2012\03\30@185551 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 30 March 2012 17:28, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickspamTakeThisOuTftml.net> wrote:

> Is there no warranty?
>

No warranty unfortunately (4 years old already), plus I was
"inappropriately driving the car" by doing this so in town only -- so this
is my fault :-)

Tama

2012\03\30@201521 by Bob Blick
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On Fri, Mar 30, 2012, at 11:55 PM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> No warranty unfortunately (4 years old already), plus I was
> "inappropriately driving the car" by doing this so in town only -- so
> this
> is my fault :-)

Is it possible to manually burn off the clogging? Maybe with an ad-hoc
blast furnace made with concrete blocks, hair dryer and charcoal
briquets?

Do you need to pass regular inspections?

Best regards,

Bob

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2012\03\31@034818 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 31 March 2012 01:15, Bob Blick <bobblickEraseMEspam.....ftml.net> wrote:

> Is it possible to manually burn off the clogging? Maybe with an ad-hoc
> blast furnace made with concrete blocks, hair dryer and charcoal
> briquets?
>

Garages are doing manual regeneration sessions (not sure what does that
mean but I thought it was only their computer attached to the ECU
commanding it to doing this so). Otherwise you have to take the entire
exhausting pipe down to physically do anything with the DPF (I have seen it
at my mechanic).


> Do you need to pass regular inspections?
>

The manual only said if DPF light is flashing on your dashboard then you
need to go to the motorway to let the car do the automatic regeneration,
and if you do not do that it might turn to continuous light which means you
need to bring it to the mechanic to either manual regeneration or to
replace the DPF (which is very very expensive).

My light was never flashing, only came into continuous. When it does that
the ECU goes to 'limbo mode', meaning that you can drive home at a limited
speed but you need to bring your car to the mechanic asap.

Tama

2012\03\31@134332 by Electron

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At 18.26 2012.03.30, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I think instead it's because not all exhaust gases will escape, so less
fresh charge will be able to enter in the following intake phase.
Volumetric efficiency, in other words.


'[OT] Saving the world by consuming more fuel?'
2012\04\02@045340 by alan.b.pearce
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> Do you need to pass regular inspections?

Yes, in the UK there is an annual "MOT" test, and one of the tests is to measure the emissions - after the engine has reached temperature, so it may sit idling on the forecourt for 10 minutes or more before the emissions are checked.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\04\02@075422 by Sean Breheny

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Do I detect some irony here? :)

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 4:53 AM,  <RemoveMEalan.b.pearcespam_OUTspamKILLspamstfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Do you need to pass regular inspections?
>
> Yes, in the UK there is an annual "MOT" test, and one of the tests is to measure the emissions - after the engine has reached temperature, so it may sit idling on the forecourt for 10 minutes or more before the emissions are checked.
> --
> Scanned by iCritical.
>
>

2012\04\03@162531 by Barry Gershenfeld

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On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 7:24 AM, John Ferrell <RemoveMEjferrell13TakeThisOuTspamspamtriad.rr.com>wrote:

> I am clueless on this subject!
> Tell me what car and I will go learn something new...
>

The Book Of Knowledge has something on this, including the little light
that says "Time to go for a drive to burn it off".  I gather this is the
"Italian tune-up" Michael was referring to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter


On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Picbits Sales <EraseMEsalesspamspamspamBeGonepicbits.co.uk> wrote:
> My wife has had around 14 new Turbo Diesel cars over the past few years
and
> has never had a DPF regen. I have tried explaining to her that there is a
> position inbetween full throttle and foot off throttle but she doesn't
> believe me ;-)
>Dom

This is known as a "digital throttle control".  I get tired of the
marketers flacking "all digital" as a product feature, and sometimes refer
to foolishness such as this as an example.


On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiKILLspamspamgmail.com>wrote:

>
> My light was never flashing, only came into continuous. When it does that
> the ECU goes to 'limbo mode', meaning that you can drive home at a limited
> speed but you need to bring your car to the mechanic asap.


Actually they call it "limp" mode, as in it allows you to "limp home".

One possible angle on the original question could be that, even if you burn
more fuel, that is offset by the cleaner emissions, in the grams-per-mile
sense.  But I don't really believe that, and I don't expect you to, either.

I often say that it's the stuff you can't see that's dangerous.  "Smoke" is
particles, which presumably fall to the ground as dust.  As if to
illustrate my point, the Wikipedia article mentions production of high
amounts of NOx during the DPF "cleaning cycle"

2012\04\03@170849 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, Apr 3, 2012, at 01:25 PM, Barry Gershenfeld wrote:

> I often say that it's the stuff you can't see that's dangerous.  
When stuck in traffic the last thing I want is to be behind a diesel.
But I rode in a friend's new California edition Jetta and it was quite
pleasant and didn't stink or irritate. I'd say that is an improvement!

And the California models have a very long emissions warranty, so I
assume that technology eventually will make it across the ocean and
you'll get reliable diesels.

Unfortunately that probably means you were used as the Guinea pigs to
test different systems, and some worked better than others. Like a
Tektronix scope I bought many years ago that was a lot of trouble. Then
they released the "A" model, that didn't have problems :(

Best regards,

Bob


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