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'[OT] SI Standards (again!!!!!!) - Was Re: E Clock'
1999\11\02@104308 by Wagner Lipnharski

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I am in a real world, where we use SI symbols as "m" for meters, "h" for
hours and not "mts" or "hrs", or something horrible like that. We use
"m" for "1/1000" or "milli", when used in conjunction with a physical
unit as mHz, mV or mA, and by God, almost all physical units follows
their discoverer's names as Hz for Hertz, V for Voltaire, H for Henry
and so on, so at least they deserve their names to be written as nouns.

Of course, one can use whatever he wants, he could say "a 4 megs
crystal", but there is a certain difference between ignorance and
unculture. The first we born with, we are basically ignorants until we
learn something, so we will not "ignore" it anymore, but the second is
just an aggression to thousands of painful years of experience and
learning, unculture is somehow a come back to live in caves.  For
example, people who insist not to use seat belts are promoting
unculture, even after extensive statistics showing reduction of personal
injure in car accidents, ok, it is not perfect? we need to improve it,
as we improved from caves to the comfort of a warm family room with TV
and popcorn in the winter.

We all know how to use capital letters at nouns and at the beginning of
phrases, because if not, people will start to think we never went to
school.  Using the SI standards is at least a good way to demonstrate we
know a little bit about what we are talking.  As someone said once, you
don't need to be a rocket scientist to know the difference between mW
and MW, but for sure NASA drawings have mm for millimeters, and not MM
or mms.

I believe that everyone in the list can understand 4MHz when reading
4mhz, but then again, it is because the ignorance (I don't believe the
[shift] key at the keyboard is hard to reach).  Perpetuate the error it
is unculture, and we don't want to make 1300 people believe that 4mhz is
correct, are we? most in a list where there are a great percentage of
novices and students fixing knowledge...

I have a personal experience learning English as my 4th spoken language,
I will never learn it correctly.  I understand perfectly the shame and
pain when after posting to the list someone see its own syntax errors as
"soup" instead "soap" and so on, but 30 or 40 different SI symbols are
not that difficult to learn and use... :), if not, conventions would not
make sense anymore, and spanish language people could post at this list
in their native language... I guess 50% or more would understand, but
this would not be funny, isn't?

Peace.

Wagner.

James Paul wrote:
>
>  Get real.  I believe he meant 4 megahertz as did probably most
>  everyone else.
>                                           Regards,
>                                             Jim

1999\11\02@110339 by Randy A.

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Wagner:

If you are going to trash everyone elses lack of proper use regarding the
keyboard, you should at least learn how to type yourself.  There are numerous
typographical errors and improper use of words, either mis-spelled or
mis-typed, in your essay regarding the use of proper abbreviations in stating
electronic units such as Hz, V, A etc.

In most cases, people are not trying to make the mistakes but I would say
that a lot of, in fact MOST, of the people on here are NOT typists.

So, give it a rest and just live with it.
Randy

1999\11\02@113229 by Andy Baker

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" As someone said once, you don't need to be
 a rocket scientist to know the difference
 between mW and MW, but for sure NASA drawings
 have mm for millimeters, and not MM or mms."

As the recent loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter shows, NASA drawings have
neither inches nor millimeters as units, leaving it all to personal
interpretation ;-)

1999\11\02@115104 by Nick Taylor

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Let's kill this thread!  We've all been there, done that, and most
of us have the T-shirt!

- Nick -

1999\11\02@122256 by Mark Walsh

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Lighten up a little.  In my real world we all screw up sometimes and as
Candide would say "this is the best of all possible worlds".  I believe the
Volt is named for the Italian (Spanish?) physicist Volta and not the French
philosopher.  But if I'm mistaken, I'm prepared to toast marshmallows with
the flames.

Mark Walsh


> I am in a real world, where we use SI symbols as "m" for meters, "h" for
> hours and not "mts" or "hrs", or something horrible like that. We use
> "m" for "1/1000" or "milli", when used in conjunction with a physical
> unit as mHz, mV or mA, and by God, almost all physical units follows
> their discoverer's names as Hz for Hertz, V for Voltaire, H for Henry
> and so on, so at least they deserve their names to be written as nouns.

1999\11\02@125840 by Dave Minkler

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Italian (not Spanish) is correct. Alessandro Volta was a student of
Galvani and is credited with the invention of the first battery.

Regards,
mink

1999\11\02@131951 by Eric Schlaepfer

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Hi Wagner,

> their discoverer's names as Hz for Hertz, V for
> Voltaire, H for Henry

The volt is named after Alessandro Volta, who
published details about the first working battery in
1800.

(I don't think Voltaire was involved at all in
electronics...)

Later,

Eric

=====

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1999\11\02@141622 by Reginald Neale

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>their discoverer's names as Hz for Hertz, V for Voltaire, H for Henry
>and so on, so at least they deserve their names to be written as nouns.
>

 Not that it makes a whole lot of difference, but since you're
 being a stickler for correctness, I believe the unit was named
 for the (Italian?) experimenter Alessandro Volta and not for
 the French philosopher/writer Voltaire.

 Reg Neale

1999\11\02@152838 by Randy A.

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Wagner:

I applaud your ability to learn the English language however, I don't think
that the people on this list are on here to have someone point out their
errors in typing units so GIVE IT A REST.  If you don't have anything truly
pertinent to the list then don't write anything.

1999\11\02@153040 by Randy A.

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You are quite correct Reg.  It was Volta. Seems our critic and instructor
needs a bit of instruction himself.
Randy

1999\11\02@161228 by Brent Brown

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Good on you Wagner!  I think you have some good points.

How many times have we seen PC's advertised like "PIII 500mHz"?
Luckily us electronic types can quickly spot this and mentally
convert it. But it becomes a problem to me when I find this kind of
thing in technical doccumentation and data sheets and stuff, after
all if we in the engineering community can't get it right who will?
There can be quite a bit of information in engineering suffixes and
the less ambiguities the better.

Just before this thread dies, there are a couple of things I'm not
quite 100% sure on. What the correct suffixes are for kilobytes,
kilobits etc? I think we use "K" because we mean 1024 (not "k"
which means 1000), B for bytes and "b" for bits, but I'm not sure.
eg.

19.2kbps = 19200 bits per second
22.05kBps = 22050 bytes per second
32KB = 32 kilobytes, or 32768 bytes
1Mb = 1048576 bits

By the way, I take my hat off to people who don't have english as
their first language (or even second or third!) but who make the
effort when writing to this list. It makes for interesting reading some
times! Choosing the right words in a technical discussion takes a
bit of brain power anyway, and I can see now how difficult the
english language can be.

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile: 025 334 069
eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz

1999\11\02@163514 by Andy Kunz

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>times! Choosing the right words in a technical discussion takes a
>bit of brain power anyway, and I can see now how difficult the
>english language can be.

I have a very good friend from Russia who says, "Technical English is just
bad Russian.  Regular English is very bad Russian."  The reason he finds
"technical English" easier is because we have so much Greek in it.  So does
Russian.

To drag this even further OT... <G>

My son (6 or 7 at the time) is learning Greek.  We were reading an Air &
Space Magazine together, and there was a picture of a Tupolev airliner in
it.  He pointed to the jet and started sounding out the word.  He had no
problem reading "Aeroflot."

Andy

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1999\11\02@171106 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 10:38 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I am in a real world, where we use SI symbols as "m" for meters, "h" for
>
>
>I have a personal experience learning English as my 4th spoken language,
>I will never learn it correctly.  I understand perfectly the shame and
>pain when after posting to the list someone see its own syntax errors as
>"soup" instead "soap" and so on, but 30 or 40 different SI symbols are
>not that difficult to learn and use... :), if not, conventions would not
>make sense anymore, and spanish language people could post at this list
>in their native language... I guess 50% or more would understand, but
>this would not be funny, isn't?
>

Wow Wagner,
To this I have to side with you a bit, but 40 or 50 SI symbols on top of
the 830 000 english words represents an error of 0.006% or while typing one
error every 10000 words! (assuming 60wpm) too over the top on the error
side. But I see your point, we all often "READ" what we want to "read", it
is called intelligence (Something that we are all born with) (My keyboard
is a bit nackered (Another new word for me!)), the ability to see through
and judge what it is supposed to be.
As for the posting language, Spanish , Greek, Italian, German, French,
English or Japanese (And a bit of Russian) I have no problems

Dennis


>Peace.
Isn't that what the UN attempt to force with the use of armaments?


Dennis

1999\11\02@173627 by Morgan Olsson

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Brent Brown wrote

>Just before this thread dies, there are a couple of things I'm not
>quite 100% sure on. What the correct suffixes are for kilobytes,
>kilobits etc? I think we use "K" because we mean 1024 (not "k"
>which means 1000), B for bytes and "b" for bits, but I'm not sure.
>eg.

Clear and logical :)

I like and use that system.

Problem is megabit per second...
But it seem like we normaly default to the 10^x interpretation, not the binary number.  ...and millibit per second is very seldom used...

Just one correction as we are into that business:   ;)
prefix (not suffix) = the "factor" we put before the unit; i.e the "k" in km

Speaking of units, I recently read an american paper and there are two units I am not sure about, can somebody fill in:

mils =   (sounds like milli inch??)
microns =   (micrometer? (µm))

Thanks in advance
/Morgan
Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
fax +46(0)414-70331 & +46(0)859817928
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1999\11\02@180036 by Matt Bonner

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Morgan Olsson wrote:
>
> Speaking of units, I recently read an american paper and there are two units I am not sure about, can somebody fill in:
>
> mils =   (sounds like milli inch??)

Commonly used for some building materials (thickness of plastic, etc.)

> microns =   (micrometer? (µm))

Old-fashioned term still in common usage.

More off topic (Morgan's  micrometer reference made me think of this):
how do people in different parts of the world pronounce "kilometer"?

In North America, it seems to be pronounced 2 ways:
1.  ki-law-meter, accent on the second syllable (most common)
2.  ki-low-meter, accent on the first syllable

I tend to go with #2, since (using the micrometer example), a
mi-craw-meter (the instrument) is used to measure a mic-row-meter (the
distance).

Ergo, a ki-law-meter (if there was such an instrument) would measure a
ki-low-meter.

Not earth-shattering important, but neither is this whole thread, eh?

--Matt

1999\11\02@180249 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Morgan Olsson wrote:
> Speaking of units, I recently read an american paper and there are two units I am not sure about, can somebody fill in:
>
> mils =   (sounds like milli inch??)
> microns =   (micrometer? (µm))

Yes, the expression "mils" is widely used to refer to 1/1000 inch, and
microns for 1/1000 mm.
So for example, the pin space at a regular DIP chip is 100 mils, while a
standard PCB hole diameter can be said to be done with a 28 mils drill
bit.... at least here in USA.

1999\11\02@181453 by Andy Kunz

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>> mils =   (sounds like milli inch??)
>
>Commonly used for some building materials (thickness of plastic, etc.)

And PCB traces, and PCB mechanicals, and machine shops, and ... and ...

>> microns =   (micrometer? (µm))
>
>Old-fashioned term still in common usage.

Uh, old fashioned?  "1/4 micron techology" is CURRENT, dude!

>In North America, it seems to be pronounced 2 ways:
> 1.  ki-law-meter, accent on the second syllable (most common)
> 2.  ki-low-meter, accent on the first syllable

3) ke-lah-mter

>I tend to go with #2, since (using the micrometer example), a
>mi-craw-meter (the instrument) is used to measure a mic-row-meter (the
>distance).

We don't have any mi-craw-meters here, but we have mi-crah-meters.

JUST PICKING!

Andy

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1999\11\02@184900 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 18:13 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

And in Australia we have Mi-crom-eat-her
and
khiel-om-eat-her

(Picky on the Euopean type pronounceation used, after all it is French! :))

Dennis



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1999\11\03@092714 by Randy A.

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Wagner:

I am not SO upset it just seems that you and a lot of others are "kicking a
dead horse" as we say here in the South.  It has been well established that
the people on this list can understand the meanings of the various standards
even if they aren't perfect, and you and I both know that will never happen.

Randy A.

1999\11\04@124531 by Eric Oliver

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> And PCB traces, and PCB mechanicals, and machine shops, and ... and ...
I work in a machine shop ( not as a machinist, but I used to be ). Here we
typically use the term thousandths to refer to 1/1000 of an inch and tenths
to refer to 1/10000 of an inch. Dimensions and tolerances are typically
called out in thousands with tenths used for closer tolerances.   For
instance, a dimension might call out 3.5625 +- .0005. In our jargon we might
describe that as "3 9/16 plus or minus a half" or "3.5625 plus or minus 5
tenths". In addition, thousands are most common so they can be assumed.  If
we had a dimension of 3.500 +- .002 and someone ask me about it. I might say
"3 1/2 plus or minus two."  However, if the tolerance is in tenths, you
always have to qualify.

I have mixed feelings about Wagner's post.  On one hand, I agree. On the
other hand, as can be seen above, a certain amount of interpretation can
take place based upon context.  I should point out though, we never attempt
to interprete drawings.  Any discrepancy, no matter if the designer's
intention is obvious, is clarified with the customer.

We don't use mils or microns to describe dimensions, but we do use
micrometers to measure tenths and thousandths <grin>.

Eric

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