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'[OT] Right to Listen - Reversed'
1999\08\02@151033 by Mark Willis

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face
Heard a rumor about a satellite system whose entire purpose is tapping
US and other nations' electronic signals from space, anyone else heard
of that?  Project (Vanguard or something or other, I don't remember),
could be real or an urban legend or ???  Supposedly reads your e-mail &
mine, etc.  Sounds like more reading than this list, a horrid fate <G>

 Mark

1999\08\02@155227 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Mark Willis wrote:
>
> Heard a rumor about a satellite system whose entire purpose is tapping
> US and other nations' electronic signals from space, anyone else heard
> of that?  Project (Vanguard or something or other, I don't remember),
> could be real or an urban legend or ???  Supposedly reads your e-mail &
> mine, etc.  Sounds like more reading than this list, a horrid fate <G>

You mean that somebody else than the list users are reading all of this
?? poor guy, sometimes is difficult to follow a subject track you
understand pretty well, imagine that poor fella allocated to the job to
read all this posts... :) "hey you, the poor fella, want a cup or water?
get out of that hot spot man... what about a beer?"

You know something Mark, sometimes I think those guys, that kind of
people, you know who I am talking about, can be so hilariously worried
about everything, information etc etc, that they could develop a way to
trace all emails and posts, can you imagine it? is there a job position
available up there? how is the healt insurance plan? I can read pretty
fast... :)  The good point is; you guys will save a lot of money just
saving to read my post and emails... :) (I write a lot).

If somebody says that "they" ARE intercepting *everything*, I will
belive, "they" are crazy enough to do it.  "They" already did worse. :)

Wagner

1999\08\02@160258 by Quentin

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

>
> If somebody says that "they" ARE intercepting *everything*, I will
> belive, "they" are crazy enough to do it.  "They" already did worse. :)
>
> Wagner
Yup. Which makes me wonder: How many emails get send per
day/hour/minute or even second?
Now tell me what system or even worse, who in their right mind can read
all that?

And why?
:)
Quentin

1999\08\02@173922 by Anne Ogborn

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face
> Now tell me what system or even worse, who in their right mind can read
> all that?


yes, but they have software that only pays attention to messages that contain ph
rases
like "we're going to blow up the world trade center tomorrow and overthrow the U
S
Government and pedophilia assassination terrorism bombs explosives guns reovluti
on
Democratic Party Communism Libertarian Party Waco"

Of course, I know a couple ISP owners who send a message like this to each other
a few thousand
times a day, just to make their lives more complex.

Acutally, many 'spy' satellites are basicly eavesdropping receivers. They call i
t
Electronic Intelligence (a contradiction in terms). The CIA hated it when
the phone companies went to buried cable from microwaves.


--
Anniepoo

1999\08\02@174750 by Alice Campbell

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hi anne,

it occurs to me that using filters assumes terrorists can spell
...i wonder how many terrorists they are missing
due to the 'unsubscribble pulelist' phenomenon...?  scary

alice


>
> yes, but they have software that only pays attention to messages that contain
phrases
> like "we're going to blow up the world trade center tomorrow and overthrow the
US
> Government and pedophilia assassination terrorism bombs explosives guns reovlu
tion
> Democratic Party Communism Libertarian Party Waco"
>
>

1999\08\02@175004 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Anne Ogborn wrote:
> Electronic Intelligence (a contradiction in terms). The CIA hated it when
> the phone companies went to buried cable from microwaves.

The FBI certainly didn't mind. The new phone switches are required to have
neat features for them, completely invisible to users and phone company
employees. You're either Blade Runner or you're little people :-(

-Bob

1999\08\02@175621 by Peter van Hoof

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Not vanguard

The Vanguard space program was set up to launch the first US satellite. The
aim of the Vanguard program was to
develop a rocket capable of launching a 9-kg (20 lb) satellite into earth
orbit. The first two launches were public failures.
By the time Vanguard I had successfully launched into earth orbit, Explorer
I had become the first US artificial satellite
and the Soviet Union had launched two Sputniks. 8 out of 11 attempts failed,
and the program was terminated

The correct name is echelon some more info about it on
http://mprofaca.cro.net/echelonfr.html
http://capo.org/opeds/pp0615.htm


Echelon is NSA's Cold War-vintage global spying system, which consists of a
worldwide network of clandestine listening
posts capable of intercepting electronic communications such as e-mail,
telephone conversations, faxes, satellite
transmissions, microwave links and fiber-optic communications traffic.

Peter
> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\02@180236 by Dave VanHorn

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>
> Echelon is NSA's Cold War-vintage global spying system, which consists of
a
> worldwide network of clandestine listening
> posts capable of intercepting electronic communications such as e-mail,
> telephone conversations, faxes, satellite
> transmissions, microwave links and fiber-optic communications traffic.


Hold on there tex..  Listening in on fiber optics from space?
Your reality check just bounced.

1999\08\02@183307 by Peter van Hoof

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just quoting the website's, did you go there?

Peter

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\02@183601 by paulb

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Anne Ogborn wrote:

> Of course, I know a couple ISP owners who send a message like this to
> each other a few thousand times a day, just to make their lives more
> complex.

 Yes, it's nice to know they're out there.  That's long been understood
as the best protection against Big Brother - if *everyone* (or at least,
a significant proportion) routinely sends salacious material.  For the
same reason, as much routine mail as possible should be sent using PGP.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\08\02@190306 by Eric Oliver

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Here's an evil idea ... I'm watching Enemy of the State right now ( or
listening ), BTW. We should sprinkle our messages with keywords like Bomb,
espionage, etc. <g>. That way they can't just scan the message store <g>.

There I did my part. Two volatile keywords in one message <g>.

Eric

On Monday, August 02, 1999 2:51 PM, Wagner Lipnharski
[SMTP:wagnerlspamKILLspamEARTHLINK.NET] wrote:
> Mark Willis wrote:
> >
> > Heard a rumor about a satellite system whose entire purpose is tapping
> > US and other nations' electronic signals from space, anyone else heard
> > of that?  Project (Vanguard or something or other, I don't remember),
> > could be real or an urban legend or ???  Supposedly reads your e-mail &
> > mine, etc.  Sounds like more reading than this list, a horrid fate <G>
>

1999\08\02@195049 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
... Do you belive that "they" are actually recording a massive bandwidth
of cell phone conversation? mostly from and to certain countries? voice
recognition (identificaiton) and all?

No, this is not science fiction.

Just think about it... do you never wanted to record your own home phone
line?  considering the actual proportional differences you would spend
something around $50 to $80 to do it... it correspond from 0.5 to 1.5%
of your monthly income, right?  what would be the "their" budget to
purchase equipment to do a similar action? $300 million, $3 billion?
what kind of recording and how far could you go to do it, if you have 1%
of "their" national monthly budget to invest in equipment?

What kind of equipment and how fast it should run to intercept any
possible word mispelled as "bonb, bombe", or any other possible
combination? with a zillion megabytes of text flowing via forums, chats,
emails... what about rebuild graphic data and locate those same
dangerous words from image?... what about decripting strange data that
looks to be encripted? just to make sure it is not something that can be
dangerous to the national security?

Think about, if we are not in a war, why keep trainning our soldiers?
why produce attack jets and missiles?  do you know how many F14s F15s
and F18s are just parked around... at some desert? with a real small
possibility to be used someday?  the name is "prevention".  I believe
that interpreting emails and cell conversations are a small slice in all
this cost.

by the way, let me send another message for those guys... "hey you guys,
want an pure Florida's orange juice?"

just kidding.

Wagner.

1999\08\02@202339 by Andy Kunz

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>by the way, let me send another message for those guys... "hey you guys,
>want an pure Florida's orange juice?"
>
>just kidding.

Yeah, everybody knows "pure Florida" is an oxymoron.

Andy

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------------------------------------------------------------------
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==================================================================

1999\08\02@213319 by Craig Lee

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face
Thanks a lot, Anne!  The spook-bots will now permanently monitor everyone
on this list.

Now I'll have to reveal my "secret weapon".

I used to do this sort of thing on the telephone about doing a big drug
deal, and murdering somebody.  At that time, there was a marked frequency
of clicks and pops on my line, about a second after connection.  I would
make a point to talk about being tapped, and then the sound would disappear
for a few days.  Only, to return later.

Spookily, A friend that used to work for the phone company told me that they
frequently monitored calls for a lark...

Craig


> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\02@230854 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Yah, well, everybody knows that you SHOULD NOT go to an airport and
kidding about a bomb inside your carrying case. Also, that you SHOULD
NOT point your laser pointer beam to a patrol car, the officer could get
very upset and do some unexpected things, like shooting you, not at all,
but avoid it at any cost.

Those things you know, because the word "bomb" at ANY airport triggers a
DEFCON-1, and that lasered officer reaction is somehow expected.

What you don't know is what would be the other officers reaction (from
FBI and others) when you play talking about bombs at your phone, you
could be flagged and investigated for years, several delays and
difficulties can be part of your life, at your job, even to buy a car or
perhaps an alarm clock and batteries at Radio Shack... :)  Now imagine
that old guy at RadioShack looking seriously to you and saying; "We are
not allowed to sell batteries to you".

Be careful with what you play, you never know, they can take it very
seriously, while you are just playing they are working.

Wagner.

Craig Lee wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

1999\08\03@010330 by erik

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**************
Be careful with what you play, you never know, they can take it very
seriously, while you are just playing they are working.
**************
Yeah,  That's what would make it so much fun.



Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

1999\08\03@015628 by root

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face
Hi,

it was also told the emails are read in the first line not by humans
rather by "robots" (i. e. text filters and similar ones) looking for
suspicious words, such as "bomb" etc. Only filtered emails are then
checked.

YASI (Yet Another Silly Idea), IMHO

Imre


On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Quentin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\03@020159 by root

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face
Hi,

the thread begins to remember me to Andy Grove's sentence (he is also from
Hungary...): "Only the paranoids survive".

Imre

1999\08\03@072724 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't talking
about you. :-)

RM



-----Original Message-----
From: root +ADw-root+AEA-PROF.PMMF.HU+AD4-
To: PICLIST+AEA-MITVMA.MIT.EDU +ADw-PICLIST+AEA-MITVMA.MIT.EDU+AD4-
Date: Tuesday, 3 August 1999 18:02
Subject: Re: +AFs-OT+AF0- Right to Listen - Reversed


+AD4-Hi,
+AD4-
+AD4-the thread begins to remember me to Andy Grove's sentence (he is
also from
+AD4-Hungary...): +ACI-Only the paranoids survive+ACI-.
+AD4-
+AD4-Imre
+AD4-

1999\08\03@074559 by Kellar Kevin K CNIN

flavicon
face
While in the Air Force so many years ago, I was an electronic switching tech
(computers and telephone exchanges) and it was common for inside plant
personnel to monitor the phone lines. Of course they did this to check the
quality of the lines ;-).  In all the security briefings they always said
count on your phone conversation being overheard by at least two others.
Kevin

> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\03@085434 by ranguelo

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face
Quentin wrote:
>
> Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> >
> > If somebody says that "they" ARE intercepting *everything*, I will
> > belive, "they" are crazy enough to do it.  "They" already did worse. :)
> >
> > Wagner
>  Yup. Which makes me wonder: How many emails get send per
> day/hour/minute or even second?
> Now tell me what system or even worse, who in their right mind can read
> all that?

Take a lock at :

http://www.mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ59GlobalSnoop.html


St.

1999\08\03@091735 by Harrison Cooper

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face
really?
I'll ask the guy that wrote some of the original software for....you know
who.

>
> yes, but they have software that only pays attention to messages that
contain phrases
> like "we're going to blow up the world trade center tomorrow and overthrow
the US
> Government and pedophilia assassination terrorism bombs explosives guns
reovlution
> Democratic Party Communism Libertarian Party Waco"
>
>

1999\08\03@095811 by eplus1

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face
Here is a thought: The level of Paranoid delusion in any society is directly
proportional to the frequency of actual conspiracy's. When conspiracy's
exist, they increase the number of Paranoids who survive and reproduce. When
they don't exist, paranoia is less useful and Paranoids expend energy that
would better be directed to other activities which are more likely to be
attractive to a mate.



James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTgeocities.com <@spam@jamesnewtonKILLspamspamgeocities.com>
1-619-652-0593 phone



-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of root
Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 11:09 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT] Right to Listen - Reversed


Hi,

the thread begins to remember me to Andy Grove's sentence (he is also from
Hungary...): "Only the paranoids survive".

Imre

1999\08\03@102948 by Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Officers assume a laser beam means laser targetting for a gun.  It's safer for
them to do so.

-Adam

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> Also, that you SHOULD
> NOT point your laser pointer beam to a patrol car, the officer could get
> very upset and do some unexpected things, like shooting you, not at all,
> but avoid it at any cost.

1999\08\03@103729 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
> Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't talking
> about you. :-)
> RM

Or listening to you!
- Nick -

1999\08\03@105029 by Dave VanHorn

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face
> > Those things you know, because the word "bomb" at ANY airport triggers a
> > DEFCON-1, and that lasered officer reaction is somehow expected.

Lemme tell you about airport security.
One week after the TWA-800 crash, I was on my way to Paris. I was getting on
a plane that would connect with TWA-800 to DeGaulle.  I was taken aside at
the counter "because you fit the profile", and they went through my
briefcase, and took me through the metal detector and X-Ray. So far so good.

They let me have my briefcase after asking me to unload the main
compartment, and go through every piece of paper.. (Getting all my nicely
ordered schematics into disarray in the process)  Then they cleared me to
go, and I started re-arrainging my briefcase and packing everything back in.
No rush, the terminal is just about deserted.

I forget why, but I needed something in one of my pencil compartments, so I
opened it (little trap doors built into the lid of the case.  The security
guard was still watching me (nothhing else to do)  and when I opened the
door, he said: "So that's what that is. I knew there was something there.."

@!$*_!@#%&_#(%&!^D:\pic\pic archive 6%^(&!@#

For all that, they let me go, knowing there was something in my case they
couldn't find or identify!   These compartments (two) are about 1.5 x 1.5 x
9 inches, so there could potentially be quite a lot in there.

Contrast that with Taiwan, where they do a full check, including luggage,
and a pat-down before each flight (even domestic).  Have you ever heard of a
taiwaneese airliner being hijacked.  I think maybe once, I could be wrong.
They take it seriously.

1999\08\03@112402 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
[snip]
> I forget why, but I needed something in one of my pencil compartments, so I
> opened it (little trap doors built into the lid of the case.  The security
> guard was still watching me (nothhing else to do)  and when I opened the
> door, he said: "So that's what that is. I knew there was something there.."
>
> @!$*_!@#%&_#(%&!^D:\pic\pic archive 6%^(&!@#

There are those explosive substances sniffing machines, they compare
volatile gases from real explosives (and some other comparisons) with
you luggage specs, if the machine identify something, you would be
doomed during at least half an hour. Some products as special inks and
even deodorants use some chemicals that can be identified as part of a
bomb. After the machine identify something, they will carry on a manual
visual inspection. If they not find a small plastic package with a gray
substance inside printed "C-4" on it, they will keep looking
suspiciously over each underweare and socks.  For sure this is their
job, and they are doing it for your own safety flight, even that it can
make you lose your flight, they are increasing the chance you will not
lose your life.

They say on-board computers are very sensitive and the aircraft can just
crash because any electronic interference. Now, we need to remember
about *not to use* electronic devices during a flight, like computers,
cell phones, electronic agendas, games, remove batteries even from your
whrist quartz clock, ear impaired devices, dont forget about video and
photo cameras, hart pacemakers... come on, the on-board aircraft
computers DOES NOT run on Windows98!!!  :)  Hey Bill, would you love to
see the Win98 logo on the 747 main computer screen, don't you?

Wagner

1999\08\03@114026 by Dave VanHorn

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> There are those explosive substances sniffing machines,

Nope, just xray and security gourd.

> For sure this is their
> job, and they are doing it for your own safety flight, even that it can
> make you lose your flight, they are increasing the chance you will not
> lose your life.

Which is why I don't object to the inspections, I object to the "Whatever"
attitude.
If he couldn't ident something in my case, he should have held me until he
was satisfied. Understand, I could have walked away instead of opening the
compartment in front of him, I was cleared at that point.   This isnt' an
especially rare briefcase, (delsey) but it does have those two compartments
built in.

> Hey Bill, would you love to
> see the Win98 logo on the 747 main computer screen, don't you?

If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get 1000 MPG, and
twice a week explode for no apparent reason.

1999\08\03@114830 by Dan Tye

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> Hey Bill, would you love to
> see the Win98 logo on the 747 main computer screen, don't you?

If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get 1000 MPG,
and
twice a week explode for no apparent reason.


That would be the 6month old model.  The current model would cost $1M,
would travel at mach5, and if when it stopped running, the user would
have to pull over to the side of the road, close all the windows, and
restart the engine after which it would run just fine.... for awhile...

1999\08\03@123035 by Gary Crowell

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Well, Kevin, many years ago I worked as a maintenance tech in the comm
center in the basement of the Alaskan Air Command building.  One day we
were following a suspected bad cable thru the building, and in the back
of a cable room we found a fellow sitting there with a big reel-to-reel
tape recorder and headphones.  He didn't have much to say, just: "You
don't want to know." and, "Go away."

Somehow I don't think he was checking line quality either.

Gary Crowell


Kellar Kevin K CNIN wrote:
>
> While in the Air Force so many years ago, I was an electronic switching tech
> (computers and telephone exchanges) and it was common for inside plant
> personnel to monitor the phone lines. Of course they did this to check the
> quality of the lines ;-).  In all the security briefings they always said
> count on your phone conversation being overheard by at least two others.
> Kevin
>

1999\08\03@124259 by Anne Ogborn

flavicon
face
Going through Brussels in the days when PC's were a novelty,
I had a hard drive with me.
They insisted I open it for bomb inspection.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\08\03@130955 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> Going through Brussels in the days when PC's were a novelty,
> I had a hard drive with me.
> They insisted I open it for bomb inspection.

:)

I've not had much trouble though, considering I've spent much of the last 15
years flying around the world with prototypes.  I did get into one incident
at Taiwan customs though, when they couldn't figure out what an EPROM eraser
was all about.

Even at times when I was carrying hand-wired units that had an obvious
"homebrew" look to them, those have never been questioned, nor my ham gear.
(Transciever, battery packs, antennas..)

Just an honest face I guess.

1999\08\03@131902 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get
> 1000 MPG, and twice a week explode for no apparent reason.

This is just the result of the almost no competition for a product.
They sell whatever they want, and we need to accept it "as is".

If during the last 10 years we had 5 different PC hardware platforms
under production by Intel - Motorola - IBM - NEC - Siemens - Philips and
others (Apple was one but...,) with 15 different strong software
platforms full of available softwares at the stores... things would be
different, the ones that need to reboot each week and just crash your 10
hours job when saving the file would just colapse and only the good ones
would survive.

Unfortunately we need to buy Windows98, just because we need it (words
from Bill Gates: "I want to sell something that people need, and only my
company has to sell").

In my point of view, my company need to fix all the problems from
previous release first, then when people recognize that my company is
serious I produce and release the next version... is this what happens
with Windows?

Doesn't matter what, hardware failure or something else, the software
*SHOULD* be able to deal with, and retry operations under failure... but
"Address Exception Failure" or "General Failure" followed by my program
abort is not what I expect from a serious software.

1999\08\03@141045 by Andy Kunz

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>If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get 1000 MPG, and
>twice a week explode for no apparent reason.

Only twice a week?

Andy


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------------------------------------------------------------------
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1999\08\03@142256 by Kevin

flavicon
face
I went through Heathrow a number of years ago with a laptop and a
calculator. Didn't even sniff the laptop, but I had to prove the 2" X 4"
calculator actually performed calculations!

Dave VanHorn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\03@142918 by Adam Davis

flavicon
face
No, no, no.  The engines and body of the car would become faster, more sleek,
hold more, use less energy.  But you would have to use microsoft gas which would
clog up the engine two times daily, cause the engine to only work at 1/2 its
rated speed, and the seats wouldn't be adjustable.  You'd have to conform to the
5'4", 135lb, male spec, or you simply wouldn't be comfortable.

-Adam

Dave VanHorn wrote:
> If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get 1000 MPG, and
> twice a week explode for no apparent reason.

1999\08\03@144413 by Dan Tye

flavicon
face
And then the "microsoft car" would turn on your lights for you.... and
lock your doors for you whenever you shift to Drive.  Oh yeah, I guess
the major car makers already do that.  Why haven't car makers figured
out that their customers have brains of their own and can figure out how
to handle these things themselves (though it is probably insurance
companies driving some of these decisions).  This aggravation is akin to
that I feel when I am working with one of the latest MSOffice products
and it "does" things for me like automatic text selection and such, that
I would much rather do myself.  If anything, car makers and software
developers should offer these things as options and then default them to
OFF.  OK, now I'll stop ranting.....

-dan


No, no, no.  The engines and body of the car would become faster, more
sleek,
hold more, use less energy.  But you would have to use microsoft gas
which would
clog up the engine two times daily, cause the engine to only work at 1/2
its
rated speed, and the seats wouldn't be adjustable.  You'd have to
conform to the
5'4", 135lb, male spec, or you simply wouldn't be comfortable.

-Adam

Dave VanHorn wrote:
> If cars had progressed like computers, they would cost $5, get 1000
MPG, and
> twice a week explode for no apparent reason.

1999\08\03@185848 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
>> Echelon is NSA's Cold War-vintage global spying system, which consists of
>> a worldwide network of clandestine listening
>> posts capable of intercepting electronic communications such as e-mail,
>> telephone conversations, faxes, satellite
>> transmissions, microwave links and fiber-optic communications traffic.

> Hold on there tex..  Listening in on fiber optics from space?
> Your reality check just bounced.

Not a problem.  The optoelectronic driver and receiver modules at the
endpoints radiate RF.  :-)

Hmmm...  I guess I'll have to start shielding my PIC-based projects to
Tempest specs.

1999\08\03@190718 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
> ... Do you belive that "they" are actually recording a massive bandwidth
> of cell phone conversation? mostly from and to certain countries? voice
> recognition (identificaiton) and all?
>
> No, this is not science fiction.
>
> Just think about it... do you never wanted to record your own home phone
> line?  considering the actual proportional differences you would spend
> something around $50 to $80 to do it... it correspond from 0.5 to 1.5%
> of your monthly income, right?  what would be the "their" budget to
> purchase equipment to do a similar action? $300 million, $3 billion?
> what kind of recording and how far could you go to do it, if you have 1%
> of "their" national monthly budget to invest in equipment?

The NSA has many employment opportunities available now.  For more
information or an application, just send email to your mother.

1999\08\03@191548 by l.allen

picon face
> > Hold on there tex..  Listening in on fiber optics from space?
> > Your reality check just bounced.
>
> Not a problem.  The optoelectronic driver and receiver modules at the
> endpoints radiate RF.  :-)
>
> Hmmm...  I guess I'll have to start shielding my PIC-based projects to
> Tempest specs.


Radiated RF from low voltage logic ccts being recieved from space?

Thats a kick ass sub-fanto-volt RX................. or paranoia.
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\08\04@021409 by root

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face
Exactly this IS the point!

I think paranoia means: if you have absolutely no evidence to be
eavesdropped, you can be sure, because of this fact proves only that THEY
are clever. Being eavesdropped is the evidence itself, and all logical
conclusion should impliate this as fact...

Imre

On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\04@022236 by root

flavicon
face
Hi,

I think the word below *directly* is overdriven. Otherwise, the tendency
may be true. But the problem is, we can't prove the existence of any
conspiracy.

I think another approach may be more useful: it is a game-theory approach.
I use it in the all-day life. The main idea is: I order a value to every
insure events. The value equals to the probability of the event multiplied
by the gain or loss resulted by the event. E. g. if I cross a road, I take
measures not to be hit by a car. Why: because of the value of the event is
high enough to do this despite of the low probability, due to the very
high value of the loss. The costs of the counter-measure (look left, then
right) are lower, than the negative value of the event to be hit, so, the
decision will be correct.

I hope I could express myself in an understandeable way.

Imre


On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, James Newton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\04@033628 by Mark Willis

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face
"MiniMax" - Minimize your expenditures (of energy and time) while
Maximizing your benefits (of health and so forth), is one other name
I've heard for that.  AKA "Common Sense" <G>  (Which isn't common enough
for my liking.)

 Mark

root wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

1999\08\04@075355 by Russell McMahon

picon face
They are developing even better methods of sniffing explosives.
NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) and it skin are used to excite the
molecules and then analyse the quantum level splitting that occurs.
The rate of precession varies with various molecules in a  given
field and you can look for signatures of typical explosive
compositions.


+AD4-There are those explosive substances sniffing machines, they compare
+AD4-volatile gases from real explosives (and some other comparisons)
with
+AD4-you luggage specs, if the machine identify something, you would be
+AD4-doomed during at least half an hour. Some products as special inks
and
+AD4-even deodorants use some chemicals that can be identified as part of
a



+AD4- computers DOES NOT run on Windows98+ACEAIQAh-  :)  Hey Bill, would you
love to
+AD4-see the Win98 logo on the 747 main computer screen, don't you?


Windows 1900 JB ??
(Jumbo Bwana)

RM

1999\08\04@101154 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Do you think that "they" use this logic? I don't think so.
We use that because our resources are finite and we have very few minds
thinking about it, in most of the cases, just one, our own brain, but in
"their" case, there are hundreds of brains trained only to think about
conspiracy, invasion, information and technology evasion, lost of power,
lost of image, superior armor and morale, and so on.
So our formula is:
A) Probability-of-the-event:                             0 to 100%
B) Delta-Change in your life style:                      0 to 100%
C) CounterMeasurement-impact-in-your-life-style (cost):  0 to 100%
D) CounterMeasurement-Efficience:                        0 to 100%

The formula would be:
A x B - C x D

"Their" formula (for sure) is:
A x B - D

So, when you sign a health insurance program, you calculate about how
many times you will need to visit your doctor, or what would be the
possibility to need hospitalization or surgeries (A), how much it would
change your life style (cost) if you don't have insurance (B), against
how much would be the monthly cost of the insurance plan (C), times how
much this insurance plan would really works for you and reduce your
problems (D).

For "them", as the "cost" item is eliminated;  Is (A) times (B) greater
than zero? if yes, what is the best health insurance program? pay it in
double and install a secure phone line between here and the insurance
company, keep an insurance attendant 24h/day available just for us,
along with 3 rooms at the hospital constantly blocked for us, a team of
surgeons and doctors along with all necessary equipment for any kind of
exams available just for us 24h/day, if the hospital doesn't has
no-break-energy system, install one, no, two (just for us). Allocate a
team of special agents to monitor and check if the hospital is really
ready, and investigate if the doctors are really from our side, check
their college friends and if they know or made contact at any time with
any person with last name ending in ".evinsky".  The countermeasurement
efficiency should be enough to cover any possibilities (D), mostly the
unthinkable ones. Any possible cost explanations would be justified when
D > A * B.  You can ask - What about the item "C"?, and the answer would
be:  "C" means "charlie" in Vietnam, we don't like and don't use that
letter since then.

are you talking about conspiracy paranoia?  I believe that paranoia is
keep thinking all the time that those things don't exist.  :)

root wrote:
[snip]
> I think another approach may be more useful: it is a game-theory approach.
> I use it in the all-day life. The main idea is: I order a value to every
> insure events. The value equals to the probability of the event multiplied
> by the gain or loss resulted by the event. E. g. if I cross a road, I take
> measures not to be hit by a car. Why: because of the value of the event is
> high enough to do this despite of the low probability, due to the very
> high value of the loss. The costs of the counter-measure (look left, then
> right) are lower, than the negative value of the event to be hit, so, the
> decision will be correct.

1999\08\04@111301 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Mark, that's called Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) which has been in
use for years. In addition to satellites, there are dedicated aircraft
under such names as "Rivet mmmrrrrfffff", etc...

  Recent issues of Aviation Week & Space Technology briefly mentioned
ELINT and `cyber warfare' activities during the war with Yugoslavia.
Apparently using the latter, they had `incredible success' at disruption
and deception in their networks and e-mail activity.

  - Tom

At 01:37 PM 8/1/99 -0700, Mark Willis wrote:
>Heard a rumor about a satellite system whose entire purpose is tapping
>US and other nations' electronic signals from space, anyone else heard
>of that?  Project (Vanguard or something or other, I don't remember),
>could be real or an urban legend or ???  Supposedly reads your e-mail &
>mine, etc.  Sounds like more reading than this list, a horrid fate <G>
>
>  Mark

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1999\08\04@152239 by John Pfaff

flavicon
face
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's nobody out to get you.

-----Original Message-----
From: root <EraseMErootspamspamspamBeGonePROF.PMMF.HU>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Right to Listen - Reversed


Hi,

the thread begins to remember me to Andy Grove's sentence (he is also from
Hungary...): "Only the paranoids survive".

Imre

1999\08\04@161640 by CUTTLER!

flavicon
face
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean there's somebody after you.



>  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's nobody out to get you.

1999\08\04@171324 by paulb

flavicon
face
Tom Handley wrote:

> ELINT and `cyber warfare' activities during the war with Yugoslavia.
> Apparently using the latter, they had `incredible success' at
> disruption and deception in their networks and e-mail activity.

 Isn't that what we refer to as "spam"?  Just imagine...
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\08\05@034707 by root

flavicon
face
Or - with other words - optimizing the cost/benefit ratio.

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mark Willis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

ly
> > > proportional to the frequency of actual conspiracy's. When conspiracy's
> > > exist, they increase the number of Paranoids who survive and reproduce. Wh
en
{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

1999\08\07@120249 by White Horse Design

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>At 22:36 02/08/1999 , Anne Ogborn wrote:
> > Now tell me what system or even worse, who in their right mind can read
> > all that?
>
>yes, but they have software that only pays attention to messages that
>contain phrases like "we're going to blow up the world trade center
>tomorrow and overthrow the US Government and pedophilia assassination
>terrorism bombs explosives guns reovlution Democratic Party Communism
>Libertarian Party Waco"


Yes, quite.

Adrian

---
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---
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---
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Elliptic curve method, number field sieve, multiple polynomial quadratic
sieve. Bob lusts after Alice. ed = 1 mod (p-1)(q-1). M55.

---
  \             / /     Adrian Gothard
   \\\' ,      / //     White Horse Design
    \\\//,   _/ //,
     \_ //' /  //,
       \ ///  //`
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    (/ \\ \\\\\         Reception:  +44
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      (( ((

---
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---
I'm an amateur crastinator. Someday I'll turn pro.

---
Was Jimi Hendrix's modem a Purple Hayes?

----
Yip yip yap yip yap yip yip y...BANG!  NO TERRIER

---
Bill Clinton doesn't inhale..... he sucks!

---
A dry sense of humor is better than slobbering everywhere

---
Police Station toilet stolen; Cops have nothing to go on

---
Programmer - an organism that turns coffee into software

---
Incorrigible punster - do not incorrige.

---
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---
"FORMAT C: /autotest" - Justice for software pirates.

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