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'[OT] Rewards - Was HOBBY PEOPLE'
1999\08\25@171736 by Peter van Hoof

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face
[bigsnip]
> All the great inventions were not done because somebody was paying the
> inventor to do that, but because the inventor's creativity, dedication
> and effort to do the extra step, most of the time to just feel happy and
> joyful that something extra was done, ended up in things that all the
> humanity enjoys today.
[snip]

Throwing all these noble causes aside. How do you think a patent should be
rewarded?

I realize that to most employers this is a normal result of having employees
but it would stimulate people to excel in what they do if they where
rewarded/appreciated.

I have a few small ones and a big one (applied for but still a number of
weeks away from issuance) that will save millions per year to my company and
bring in an additional few million per year in royalty's for my employer,
yet it is customary at this company to pay $1000 split with all involved
with the invention.


Peter

1999\08\25@175102 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Peter,

I think that you are being treated very unfairly. I think simple justice
requires that you get a large share (in the tens of percent,assuming that
you were the main inventor) of the royalties and additional profit. I
realize that most companies probably don't do this,but I feel that they
should. It not only is right,but makes good business sense,i.e. every good
inventor will want to come work for them.

Sean


At 05:15 PM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I have a few small ones and a big one (applied for but still a number of
>weeks away from issuance) that will save millions per year to my company and
>bring in an additional few million per year in royalty's for my employer,
>yet it is customary at this company to pay $1000 split with all involved
>with the invention.
>
>
>Peter
>
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
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1999\08\25@175519 by l.allen

picon face
Peter wrote

> Throwing all these noble causes aside. How do you think a patent should be
> rewarded?
>
> I realize that to most employers this is a normal result of having employees
> but it would stimulate people to excel in what they do if they where
> rewarded/appreciated.
>
> I have a few small ones and a big one (applied for but still a number of
> weeks away from issuance) that will save millions per year to my company and
> bring in an additional few million per year in royalty's for my employer,
> yet it is customary at this company to pay $1000 split with all involved
> with the invention.
>
Sounds like you need to negotiate!

$1000 sounds  a bit like a disincentive to hard work, unless of
course you're salary is so stupendously huge that such excellence is
considered a matter of course.
After all communism espouses equal rewards, what a suff up it turned
out to be.
At the University here the pay sucks but there are good
profit sharing incentives for patented /licensed outcomes.


_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\08\25@180139 by Andy Kunz

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>Throwing all these noble causes aside. How do you think a patent should be
>rewarded?
>
>I have a few small ones and a big one (applied for but still a number of
>weeks away from issuance) that will save millions per year to my company and
>bring in an additional few million per year in royalty's for my employer,
>yet it is customary at this company to pay $1000 split with all involved
>with the invention.

I can understand your frustration, and having lived on both sides of this
issue, here's my viewpoint:

As an _employee_ you are taking little risk.  The gov't requires that a
company pay its employees before its other creditors when folding.  You are
in a good position.

The company has invested thousands, perhaps millions, to provide you a
laboratory, secretary, etc. to give you the environment you need to
innovate.  A very important part of that is job security.  The interest on
$1M for a month is $4K (5% interest - very low). Oh yes - you are probably
an at-will employee and can leave whenever you want.  Big risk there, not
to mention that you might meet a Mack truck in your lane on the way to work
one morning....

$1000 split all around - probably a little cheap, but the concept makes
life a lot simpler for everybody, including you.  Some patents don't pay
off (Patents don't come cheap AFTER the thing is invented either - you have
filings, reviews, and of course the challenges), but some pay off big.
Just the fact that you are getting anything just for a patent award is good.

I look at it this way:  If they pay my salary on time, and it's a decent
wage, my job IS to innovate.  That's what they pay me for.  If I'm sweeping
the floors and come up with a new electronic gadget, I'd expect a bonus.

A regular salary sure beats the irregularity of self-employment.  But I
keep the self-employment active to a degree because it makes for
opportunities to score big on occasion.

BTW, if you don't want your share of that $1000, you can mail it to me.  I
accept personal checks <G>.

Andy
==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
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1999\08\25@181231 by Andy Kunz

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face
>I think that you are being treated very unfairly. I think simple justice
>requires that you get a large share (in the tens of percent,assuming that
>you were the main inventor) of the royalties and additional profit. I
>realize that most companies probably don't do this,but I feel that they
>should. It not only is right,>

Sorry to break you in mid-sentence there, Sean.

If you think like that, you will have a very hard time finding a good job
that you will be pleased with over a long period.

Read my other post.  I've been on both sides of this.

>but makes good business sense,i.e. every good
>inventor will want to come work for them.

That is true.  However, the other side of it is that your company may not
be in business too long if they treated everybody too well.

The only places I know of where this is done, and pretty close to "right,"
is with certain government functions.  The US Navy has a very good policy
to encourage its scientists to invent, likewise (I believe, don't know
firsthand) is NASA.  Someone else mentioned that his university (is AU I
think) is good about it.

Something to note - none of these institutions is known for high pay.  Good
bennies, yes, poor pay.

The other thing is that they aren't likely to go out of business any time soon.

Things to keep in mind.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
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==================================================================

1999\08\25@184714 by Peter van Hoof

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Andy Kunz wrote:
[snip]
> The company has invested thousands, perhaps millions, to provide you a
> laboratory, secretary, etc. to give you the environment you need to
> innovate.

No lab , secretary etc, .... a desk ...yes

A very important part of that is job security.  The interest on
> $1M for a month is $4K (5% interest - very low). Oh yes - you are probably
> an at-will employee and can leave whenever you want.  Big risk there, not
> to mention that you might meet a Mack truck in your lane on the
> way to work
> one morning....

That still leaves my employer with this nice sum of money coming in each
month, I am not talking about money before doing an invention like this I am
talking about some monetary reward to make it worth my while to continue to
spew good idea's (at the moment I see no reason to give them 4 more patent
able ideas I have)

> $1000 split all around - probably a little cheap, but the concept makes
> life a lot simpler for everybody, including you.  Some patents don't pay
> off (Patents don't come cheap AFTER the thing is invented either
> - you have
> filings, reviews, and of course the challenges), but some pay off big.
> Just the fact that you are getting anything just for a patent
> award is good.

This is not about patents that might make money, but about patents that have
been saving millions per year even before they are issued, there is a
company building machines using the principles a patent will be issued for,
the DVD disks (my patent is about how to put the reflecting image on the top
disks) has been saving us/our customer 10 cents in printing cost for the
past 2 years or so.

>
> I look at it this way:  If they pay my salary on time, and it's a decent
> wage, my job IS to innovate.  That's what they pay me for.  If
> I'm sweeping
> the floors and come up with a new electronic gadget, I'd expect a bonus.

I'm only an integration engineer. the invention I did is not in my field.

> A regular salary sure beats the irregularity of self-employment.  But I
> keep the self-employment active to a degree because it makes for
> opportunities to score big on occasion.
>
> BTW, if you don't want your share of that $1000, you can mail it to me.  I
> accept personal checks <G>.
>
> Andy

1999\08\25@184931 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Andy,

I read your other post and I see your point. Actually, perhaps we are
talking about different things. I was under the impresion that Peter's
patent was for something very special and out of the ordinary. If it is
just for a simple,standard product of the company (i.e., I design a new
type of alarm for a clock/radio <G>) then the person wouldn't deserve much
more than their usual salary.

However, if Peter invented a new type of transistor(the other end of the
spectrum - a patent that the company only gets every few years or more
rarely),and he is being paid,say,$35K a year,I think a large bonus is in
order.

In the case of Lucent/Bell Labs,where such innovations are more
commonplace, perhaps the inventor IS being empolyed to do such on a regular
basis and large profit-sharing is not needed.However, I would expect a
better salary than $35K for such a person<G>.

The truth in this case is probably somewhere in-between.

Sean


At 06:10 PM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

soon.
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
KILLspamshb7KILLspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\08\25@191909 by Andy Kunz

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>That still leaves my employer with this nice sum of money coming in each
>month, I am not talking about money before doing an invention like this I am
>talking about some monetary reward to make it worth my while to continue to

Talk to them.  Tell them you have ideas.

>spew good idea's (at the moment I see no reason to give them 4 more patent
>able ideas I have)

I'm sure their competitors would like to have these ideas as well.  Since
they haven't been patented, they exist only in your mind, they are
obviously going to be useful to you.

>This is not about patents that might make money, but about patents that have
>been saving millions per year even before they are issued, there is a

Talk to them.  Honesty and openness will help.  If they don't like it,
leave.  Or better yet, take the ideas and patent them yourself, then
license them the rights to use it.

>I'm only an integration engineer. the invention I did is not in my field.

That's harder than the up-front engineering, at least for me.

Andy

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==================================================================

1999\08\25@211535 by Mark Walsh

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>
> That still leaves my employer with this nice sum of money coming in each
> month, I am not talking about money before doing an invention
> like this I am
> talking about some monetary reward to make it worth my while to
> continue to
> spew good idea's (at the moment I see no reason to give them 4 more patent
> able ideas I have)
>

Like Andy, I've been on both sides of this thing.  When I was an employee
part of my employment agreement stated that any work I did for the company
belonged to the company.  In return I expected and got a reasonable paycheck
and except for some underfunded startups I got involved with, they usually
delivered.

If you have some patentable ideas, which must also be marketable or they are
worthless, take the plunge and go off on you own to develop them.  The only
personal reward I found greater than building neat circuits has been
building my own company from scratch.

In 1995 we got involved in project that cost me over $100k before I
recognized we could never sell it at a reasonable profit.  I pulled the plug
on it and ate the costs.  I didn't do proper marketing research early and
learned an expensive lesson.  I didn't get a pay check that year, but I
managed not to lay off any employees.  They didn't share in the risk or the
consequences to the extent I did.  There is absolutely no obligation on my
part to share the rewards with my employees.  But with good employees being
so hard to find, I would be crazy not to.

Take the leap and find out what it's really like for the company you work
for.  Then you'll really know whether you are doing your job because you
love it, or because someone pays you for it.

Mark Walsh

1999\08\25@235329 by Terry

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Peter, it looks like u're getting the short end of a skinny carrot, ask for
a better position and better pay or better yet, start hunting for a better
job THEN negotiate. Inventors, (the word which is said with a huge grin on
patent con artist faces...), have never had it harder since the days of
Edison. If ur other ideas have nothing to do with ur actual job function,
look for businesses that are more interested and less stingy.

I certainly hope u got ur name on the patent or i'd say u've been ripped
off big time. Businesses have to play the dirty game to survive but if they
do that to their employees, let them keep the no talents hungry for an easy
day to day job doing nothing more then that which is required from them.

Terry

At 06:45 PM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\26@005446 by Glen

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years ago 1990 , i worked for this company .
it was costing them $12 million/yr in nitrogen.
i was thinking i could  cut this down.
anyway to cut a long story short
i worked out (in my own time) how to save them $6 million /year (cut their costs
in 1/2)
i approached the bosses.
i come up with a system that'll save you $6 million /yr, interested.
lets have a look at it.
it'll cost you 10% per/yr ($600,00) in writing
you work for us!!
i designed it in my own time ! & it'll still cost you 10% per/yr ($600,00) in
writing
well think about it.
suit yourself.
within a short time later you can guess !!
being moved into an unbearable position .
i finally left.
recently i  ran into someone who still works their , they've done nothing (in 9
yrs).
thats over $54 million that its cost them extra (taking into account inflation)

if i owned my own company , i'd pay $600,000/yr to save $6 million/yr  wouldn't
you !

g.g

p.s. i know one guy . he designed this gadet which has made his employer
12million profit in their first yr.    their ist yr!!!.      that was 6 yrs ago.

you know what he got.
a gold watch & a citation for excellence.
(he's just a number , like most of us , who's on a wage & who's dispensible at a
weeks notice)

i don't input a lot to this list but i follow it quite closely & i read plenty
of your input !

you know picsters ,i feel right at home reading the BRILLIANT thoughts & ideas
of you people on this list

its dissappointing that without us engineers/hobbyists those morons who run the
companies would be ???

i hope ( nothing wrong with thinking BIG) & it won't be from lack of trying , th
e
day will come when the money's rolling
that i'll be looking for people like on this list & those participants WILL ALL
BENEFIT with me !!!

NO OFFENSE INTENDED TO ANYBODY
just my $6millions worth !

>

1999\08\26@012058 by William K. Borsum

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At 02:51 PM 8/26/99 +1000, you wrote:
>years ago 1990 , i worked for this company .
>it was costing them $12 million/yr in nitrogen.
>i was thinking i could  cut this down.
>anyway to cut a long story short
>i worked out (in my own time) how to save them $6 million /year (cut their
costs
{Quote hidden}

(in 9
>yrs).
>thats over $54 million that its cost them extra (taking into account
inflation)
>
>if i owned my own company , i'd pay $600,000/yr to save $6 million/yr
wouldn't
>you !

Had a situation like this once.  Too late now, but if I had to do it over
again, I would
1) buy a small amount of stock (how much depends on the corporate by-laws)
2) as a shareholder, demand access to the books to validate the numbers
3) get a good attorney and start a class action suite as a minority
shareholder.
4) Go public with the whole mess in the form of a shareholder sponsored
motion at an annual meeting.
   If this is done in advance it has to go into the annual prospectus, and
will be seen by all shareholders, analysts, etc.
   Publicity can be deadly to management people--ie. the idiots who turned
you down.

Also, the key term is "confidential disclosure."  talk to any good patent
person about it.

Kelly



William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<TakeThisOuTborsumEraseMEspamspam_OUTdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\26@085726 by Andy Kunz

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>its dissappointing that without us engineers/hobbyists those morons who
run the
>companies would be ???

Good thing we don't (as a rule) run the company, though.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
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==================================================================

1999\08\26@092849 by chuck

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--- "William K. Borsum" <EraseMEborsumspamDASCOR.COM> wrote:

> Had a situation like this once.  Too late now, but if I had to do it
> over
> again, I would
> 1) buy a small amount of stock (how much depends on the corporate
> by-laws)

I've read many of these maxim/Hobby People string of notes and finally
read the best advice of all. #1 above. Although I recommend you skip
the other steps and just buy more than a small amount of stock of a
company you believe in.
I've been in the electronics industry for 20 years.
I share all the frustrations I've read.
The fact is you probaly won't get rich working on electronics but it
sure is a lot of fun.
The advantage each of us has is we expose ourselves to the latest
technology everyday. We also understand it long before any of the
management, bean counters or wall street even have a clue.
I've made more money on buying Microchip Stock in the early days and
presently. I've made money on contract manufacturing companies like
Jabil Circuit that was started in my home state of Michigan.
I know many who have made money in internet stocks.
My point is, continue playing and learning electronics but then invest
in what you know. Buying stock is much easier than programming a PIC!
It will pay off much faster than waiting for some non-technical type to
recognize your talents.
===
Chuck Hellebuyck
Electronic Products
RemoveMEchuckEraseMEspamEraseMEelproducts.com
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Complete 16F84 package for only $115.95
Includes: Compiler, EPIC Programmer, 16F84 PIC, Cable & Batteries
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