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'[OT] Resume feedback?'
2005\06\19@160259 by William Couture

face picon face
Hi Gang!

Well, for various reasons I'm starting to look elsewhere for employment.

I'd appreciate it if some of the people on this list could look at my resume
and give me some feedback.  Or pass it to someone who might be interested
(after any obvious problems have been fixed).

You can find it at
  http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.doc
and
  http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.rtf

Thanks!
  Bill

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2005\06\19@162539 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Couture wrote:
> I'd appreciate it if some of the people on this list could look at my
> resume and give me some feedback.  Or pass it to someone who might be
> interested (after any obvious problems have been fixed).
>
> You can find it at
>    http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.doc
> and
>    http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.rtf

The first thing is to only distribute it in PDF format.  Reading Word files
on screen can be a pain, and you never know what the formatting looks like
on the recipient's end.  Even if it's not your fault (although it sortof
is), you don't want your first impression to be a mess.  Reading PDF files
is more comfortable and always looks the way you intended.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\06\19@211828 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 16:25 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> William Couture wrote:
> > I'd appreciate it if some of the people on this list could look at my
> > resume and give me some feedback.  Or pass it to someone who might be
> > interested (after any obvious problems have been fixed).
> >
> > You can find it at
> >    http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.doc
> > and
> >    http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.rtf
>
> The first thing is to only distribute it in PDF format.  Reading Word files
> on screen can be a pain, and you never know what the formatting looks like
> on the recipient's end.  Even if it's not your fault (although it sortof
> is), you don't want your first impression to be a mess.  Reading PDF files
> is more comfortable and always looks the way you intended.

While this may be true of the people on this list, this is certainly not
true of many companies out there, especially bigger ones.

Many of the companies I applied to preferred .doc, some actually warned
NOT to send .pdfs.

Don't ask me why, .pdf is by far what I would personally prefer, but
many HR types out there want ONLY .doc. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\06\19@215757 by Sunward Aerospace

flavicon
face
From: "William Couture"
snip
> I'd appreciate it if some of the people on this list could look at my
resume

If you are not going to keep the resume in the public, you may want to
delete some personal information.  The list archive will be available to
many.

As for the resume itself, looks good.  There are so many ways to do one.

I would consider adding sections for Objective ( what job are you looking
for? ), Interests, and Personal Skills.

Also, the references available line should be a larger font.

Angelo Castellano
Sunward Aerospace Group Limited
http://www.sunward1.com
spam_OUTinfoTakeThisOuTspamsunward1.com

2005\06\19@225937 by Matthew Miller

flavicon
face
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 09:18:27PM -0400, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 16:25 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > The first thing is to only distribute it in PDF format.  Reading Word files
> > on screen can be a pain, and you never know what the formatting looks like
> > on the recipient's end.  Even if it's not your fault (although it sortof
> > is), you don't want your first impression to be a mess.  Reading PDF files
> > is more comfortable and always looks the way you intended.
>
> While this may be true of the people on this list, this is certainly not
> true of many companies out there, especially bigger ones.
>
> Many of the companies I applied to preferred .doc, some actually warned
> NOT to send .pdfs.
>
> Don't ask me why, .pdf is by far what I would personally prefer, but
> many HR types out there want ONLY .doc. TTYL

I agree that PDF should be an accepted format. Myself, I provide my resume
in two formats: PDF and ASCII text. Anyone should be able to read atleast
one of these formats. If they say they can't, well their just stubborn. ;^)
Or maybe not, but who uses an EBCDIC based machine as a workstation anyway?

BTW, Mr. Couture, I think your resume is fine. I didn't see anything out of
place. You have a three page long resume that reflects your experience, no
HR person should be thrown off by it. I have no problems with the file
formats and neither should HR; though I think that refusing a PDF indicates
someone who has been using a computer for less than a month.

Take care.

Matthew.

--
"Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in
Resulting Explosion. News at 11."

2005\06\19@230829 by PicDude

flavicon
face
On Sunday 19 June 2005 08:18 pm, Herbert Graf scribbled:
> While this may be true of the people on this list, this is certainly not
> true of many companies out there, especially bigger ones.
>
> Many of the companies I applied to preferred .doc, some actually warned
> NOT to send .pdfs.

Correct.


> Don't ask me why, .pdf is by far what I would personally prefer, but
> many HR types out there want ONLY .doc. TTYL

Larger companies use automated systems and don't really look at resumes at
all, unless they're ready to bring you in for an interview -- they scan hard
copies it and OCR it, or automatically load in an MSword file and store it in
a database.  When a position comes open, they scan all resumes in the
database for matches.  An HR person forwards the top handful of matches to
the hiring manager, who will skim it over to see if to bring in those people
for an interview.  PDF files are difficult for most (though I'm sure not all)
of these systems to read/interpret.  (But things may have changed in the few
years since I was in the loop of things.)

I also hate sending out .doc files since others can/will make changes and
there is no accountability.  Years ago I once went to an interview setup for
me by a headhunter, and the interviewer at the hiring company asked me things
that were way out of my field.  I finally had to ask why, and they said it
was on my resume, and showed me a copy of the resume, which was mine, except
for the skills keywords -- the contracting agency severly altered/falsified
my skills to fit the position!

Cheers,
-Neil.



2005\06\19@234400 by Andre Abelian

flavicon
face
all h.r. are brain less people all they do  is try to match words in
your  resume.
90 % of people on this list should be able to design electronics
products from scratch all
geniuses. all you have to do is risk it. do it make it try it
no thing to loose.

Andre



PicDude wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\06\20@073626 by olin piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> Many of the companies I applied to preferred .doc, some actually warned
> NOT to send .pdfs.
>
> Don't ask me why, .pdf is by far what I would personally prefer, but
> many HR types out there want ONLY .doc.

The only people who have ever asked me for a resume in DOC form were head
hunters.  That's because they wanted to enhance it a bit.  I declined.
Maybe these HR people want to add a header or delete contact info so the
hiring manager has to come thru them to talk to you.  This may be standard
practise for dealing with head hunter resumes, but I can't think of a
legitimate reason for that when you are sending your own resume.  Someone
requesting a DOC file would make be suspicious.  At the very least I'd ask
why.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\06\20@082113 by Dennis Crawley

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:
> The only people who have ever asked me for a resume in DOC form were
> head hunters.  That's because they wanted to enhance it a bit.  I

The enhancement could be make it from .pdf format also. There are many
simple ways to do that.
I think it is necessary to "follow the rules". If the company you attempt to
present your CV told you to do it in word doc, just do it. "Follow the
rules" is a good impression to human resources department.
If people want, I know about 50 tips to "bubble up" from 100 people for the
same job. (when time to face HR arise)

Regards,
Dennis Crawley
Argentina



               
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2005\06\20@090530 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 07:37 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > Many of the companies I applied to preferred .doc, some actually warned
> > NOT to send .pdfs.
> >
> > Don't ask me why, .pdf is by far what I would personally prefer, but
> > many HR types out there want ONLY .doc.
>
> The only people who have ever asked me for a resume in DOC form were head
> hunters.  That's because they wanted to enhance it a bit.  I declined.
> Maybe these HR people want to add a header or delete contact info so the
> hiring manager has to come thru them to talk to you.  This may be standard
> practise for dealing with head hunter resumes, but I can't think of a
> legitimate reason for that when you are sending your own resume.  Someone
> requesting a DOC file would make be suspicious.  At the very least I'd ask
> why.

Don't shoot the messenger Olin, I'm only reporting my experience in the
real world.

The more and more I think of it, I don't think I've EVER been able to
submit a resume in pdf format. Every single position I applied too
online wanted either .doc or plain text, .doc being the slim leader (rtf
is sometimes acceptable in parallel with doc).

Reasons are numerous, as others have mentioned, but given more thought
I'd say the big reasons are probably two fold:

1. HR types don't want to have 14 different applications for all the
formats out there. DOC and plain text are the LOWEST common denominator.
On top of that, try asking people HOW they'd generate a PDF, many don't
know.
2. HR types don't read resumes, they scan them for key words. Their
"scanning" is probably done either with a script someone wrote (for
plain text), or a macro in word. Any resume not in the format they want
probably gets dropped outright.

Note that my observations are NOT of head hunters, but of BIG tech
companies (and small ones).

Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
PDF is NOT secure. Modifying the contents of a PDF is no harder then
modifying the contents of a DOC file. Certain OS's have the tools
included. Even modifying a "secure" PDF is pretty simple if you have the
right tools. So I don't see why anyone would be more "comfortable" with
submitting a PDF vs. a DOC if modification of their resume is in their
minds. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\06\20@093138 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> PDF is NOT secure.

That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it, and
convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way to do this.
The result can of course be modified dircetly with graphic tools, or
indirectly by doing OCR first, but neither is as easy as modifying a
'text' document like word or plain (character mode) pdf.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\20@094307 by olin piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
>> The only people who have ever asked me for a resume in DOC form were
>> head hunters.  That's because they wanted to enhance it a bit.  I
>> declined. Maybe these HR people want to add a header or delete contact
>> info so the hiring manager has to come thru them to talk to you.  This
>> may be standard practise for dealing with head hunter resumes, but I
>> can't think of a legitimate reason for that when you are sending your
>> own resume.  Someone requesting a DOC file would make be suspicious.
>> At the very least I'd ask why.
>
> Don't shoot the messenger Olin,

I've re-read my comments forwards backwards and sideways, and I can't find
anywhere I've said anything about the person being replied to.  I related my
own experience, added some speculation, and said what I'd do in that
circumstance.  There was no judgement about you, your opinions, or your
statements.

I don't know why you appear to be going out of your way to find offense in
things I say.  If it weren't coming from an admin, I'd just ignore it and
probably find it mildly amusing.  But since you have some official weight, I
find it a bit disturbing.  It's time to get off my case already.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\06\20@094414 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu]
>Sent: 20 June 2005 14:31
>To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
>Subject: RE: [OT] Resume feedback?
>
>
>> Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in
>their posts:
>> PDF is NOT secure.
>
>That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it,
>and convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way
>to do this. The result can of course be modified dircetly with
>graphic tools, or indirectly by doing OCR first, but neither
>is as easy as modifying a 'text' document like word or plain
>(character mode) pdf.

You can convert a postscript file from a standard printer driver to PDF, or with Acrobat you can print straight to PDF.  With a PDF made in this manner you can edit to document with Acrobat or Ghostscript etc.  A PDF made from a scanned document never looks very porfressional IME.

Regards

Mike

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2005\06\20@100306 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen <EraseMEwouterspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> > PDF is NOT secure.
>
> That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it, and
> convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way to do this.

You can use any generic Windows Postscript print driver redirected to a
file to convert anything to Postscript, then just use GhostScript (perhaps
via GSview) to convert that to an image file. Any number of tools (e.g.,
Image Magick) can then be used to make an image-based PDF. Don't use the
pdfwriter in GhostScript, though, as this will create an easily-edited
character-mode PDF.

But more to the point, the types who want to "enhance" a resume as a .doc
file aren't going to have the technical skills to modify a PDF, secure or
otherwise.

Heck, I have my resume on my website as an HTML file, and these guys can't
even figure out that MS Word is perfectly happy to load an HTML file and
let you edit it.

-- Dave Tweed

2005\06\20@100906 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
Just a few nits:

This line,  "Servo control focusing system for industrial camera."  has
a period, the other lines in that list do not.

'"Archeology" into 8-year-old undocumented image processing code.'  I
stumbled over this line when I first read it; there might be a better
way of introducing this.

"Designed and dual implementation (both C and assembly) and continuing
extensions of virus scanning and removal engine."  Should be "Designed a
..." (?)  or maybe:  "Designed dual implementations (both C and
assembly), and continuing extensions, of virus scanning and removal
engine."

"tools such a multimeters and oscilloscopes."  >>plurality mismatch>>
"tools such multimeters and oscilloscopes."


I have seen resumes that have included a 'keywords' section, that
included all of the acronyms and their expansion - just for keyword
scanning.  You have used RFID, ICODE, ASIC, OLE, and others that would
very likely go over the HR persons head.  True story, we were looking
for someone with "DSP" experience.  HR wasn't coming up with anything
immediately so we went and looked at the resume database ourselves.
Found a resume there with tons of "Digital Signal Processing"
experience, only the guy had never used the acronym 'DSP' in the resume.
HR had never connected the two.

Good luck,

Gary Crowell
Micron Technology




> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\20@101914 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> PDF is NOT secure. Modifying the contents of a PDF is no harder then
> modifying the contents of a DOC file. Certain OS's have the tools
> included. Even modifying a "secure" PDF is pretty simple if you have the
> right tools.

Reminds me of a news story I recently heard.  It seems some
DoD types (military) here in the US were releasing .pdf files to
the press/on the net after redacting them by drawing a black
box image over the text they desired to remove.  Someone
with a tish more IT prowess that the box of hair responsible
for the release of the documents figured it out and a good deal
of secret material was suddenly quite public.

Mike H.

2005\06\20@103851 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
Just another nit:

"Created and supported in-house system level software, including
software implementation of Intel x86 processor with PC-
compatible support hardware as debugging environment, and disassembler
with intelligent flow analysis."

I think is missing an intended comma:  "Created and supported in-house
system level software, including software implementation of Intel x86
processor, with PC-compatible support hardware as debugging environment,
and disassembler with intelligent flow analysis.   ...or something, the
grouping is throwing off the subject.  Perhaps:

"Created and supported in-house system level software debugging
environment, including software implementation of Intel x86 processor,
PC-compatible support hardware, and disassembler with intelligent flow
analysis."


Really getting nitpicky:

"One of programming team working on on-orbit software..." >> "Member of
programming team working on on-orbit software..."

"Responsible for all disassembly and analysis for over 1500 viruses."
>>  "Responsible for all disassembly and analysis of over 1500 viruses."

"Disassembled and analyzed viruses, continued update and support of
virus scanner and removal."  >> 'removal' is just sort of hanging there,
maybe:  "... support of virus scanning and removal tool."

"Support users for general computer operations..."   >>maintain tense>>
"Supported users for general computer operations..."

"Accu-Sort Systems, Inc.  Telford PA"  >>  "Accu-Sort Systems, Inc.,
Telford PA"

"rangefinder (distance to object..."  >>  "Rangefinder (distance to
object..."
"motor velocity and current control..."  >>  "Motor velocity and current
control..."  (to match capitalization on rest of list.)

"Graduation Magna Cum Laude with BS Physics" >> 'BS Physics' is
redundant with heading.

Gary Crowell
Micron Technology



> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\20@103934 by Tony Smith

picon face
I've seen the opposite, only once have I been asked for a .PDF, and that was just a test to see if I could do it.  (Yeah, click the
button in Word, some test).  Graphics designers will get asked for a resume in .PDF for similar reasons.

The world (especially HR) runs MS-Office, and that means Word.DOC.  As other have said, it make their database import / keyword scan
easier.  I've been asked for plain text by people scared of viruses, but not for a few years.

A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the formatting.  Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong
(ie no styles) you get binned.

HR will rewrite your resume even if you send it in on stone tablets.

Tony


> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\20@104649 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
Oh, I forgot to mention, if Idaho might interest you, Micron is hiring.
http://www.micron.com/jobs/

Gary

> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\20@105147 by jrem

picon face
<snip>
>
> "tools such a multimeters and oscilloscopes."  >>plurality mismatch>>
> "tools such multimeters and oscilloscopes."

I think that's a typo, it should be "such as".

<more snippage>


               
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2005\06\20@110242 by gacrowell

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face
"A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the formatting.
Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie no styles)
you get binned."

That's evil, and probably not at all atypical.

Gary

2005\06\20@110601 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
True.  Thanks, I don't know what I was thinking there.

GC

{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\06\20@111523 by gacrowell

flavicon
face

> "Graduation Magna Cum Laude with BS Physics" >> 'BS Physics' is
> redundant with heading.

Never mind, I see that's really necessary to introduce the "3 years..."
thing.

GC

2005\06\20@113138 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> "A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the
> formatting.
> Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie
> no styles)
> you get binned."

Maybe appropriate when you apply as Word specialist. But what about
someone who *generates* his .doc files from some other format? (I don't
do that at the moment, but it is just the sort of things I often do - I
do generate most of the html on my website).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\20@113313 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:02 AM 6/20/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>"A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the formatting.
>Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie no styles)
>you get binned."
>
>That's evil, and probably not at all atypical.
>
>Gary

I was once in the office of some investment bankers, and they were tossing
every resume that contained the word "dynamic". ;-)

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\06\20@115622 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 05:31 PM 6/20/2005 +0200, you wrote:
> > "A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the
> > formatting.
> > Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie
> > no styles)
> > you get binned."
>
>Maybe appropriate when you apply as Word specialist. But what about
>someone who *generates* his .doc files from some other format? (I don't
>do that at the moment, but it is just the sort of things I often do - I
>do generate most of the html on my website).
>
>Wouter van Ooijen

Engineers need to be able to communicate, and that may mean putting
together an 80-page Word document efficiently, or even a <shudder>
PowerPoint presentation. Granted it's not mandatory on a document as
short as a resume, but it might be considered an indication of good/bad
habits. But maybe they are just being evil Catberts.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\06\20@115822 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> "A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the
> formatting.
> Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie
> no styles)
> you get binned."

I wonder what her reply is if they ask for a reason for rejection.

2005\06\20@123004 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
"Thank you for your interest.  While your qualifications are impressive,
they do not meet our needs at this time."

Who hasn't gotten one of those.  .Doc formatting, "dynamic" rejection,
its all part of the game.  The HR folks use such screwy qualifiers
because they lack the subject knowledge to sift them properly, and they
have to cut the volume down to some manageable level.  The most common
is to sort by GPA, then take the twenty or so off the top.  

All these games just show why its important to go around HR to a contact
on the inside, if at all possible.

GC

> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\20@131804 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 15:31 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> > PDF is NOT secure.
>
> That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it, and
> convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way to do this.
> The result can of course be modified dircetly with graphic tools, or
> indirectly by doing OCR first, but neither is as easy as modifying a
> 'text' document like word or plain (character mode) pdf.

Actually, if you open a PDF with the right tool you can edit it's
contents exactly the same as you would in Word. TTYL



-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\06\20@133141 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 01:18 PM 6/20/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 15:31 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > > Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> > > PDF is NOT secure.
> >
> > That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it, and
> > convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way to do this.
> > The result can of course be modified dircetly with graphic tools, or
> > indirectly by doing OCR first, but neither is as easy as modifying a
> > 'text' document like word or plain (character mode) pdf.
>
>Actually, if you open a PDF with the right tool you can edit it's
>contents exactly the same as you would in Word. TTYL

What "right tool" would you recommend that can accomplish this?

Best regards

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spamBeGonespeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\06\20@134239 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Engineers need to be able to communicate, and that may mean putting
> together an 80-page Word document efficiently

Of course, but it is a 'bit' evil to judge a .doc file on the parts that
don't show in print, unless it's made clear upfront that that is
requirement.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\20@134752 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >Actually, if you open a PDF with the right tool you can edit it's
> >contents exactly the same as you would in Word. TTYL
>
> What "right tool" would you recommend that can accomplish this?

Especially for the case that the pdf contains just scanned images?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\20@140129 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > Engineers need to be able to communicate, and that may mean putting
> > together an 80-page Word document efficiently
>
> Of course, but it is a 'bit' evil to judge a .doc file on the parts that
> don't show in print, unless it's made clear upfront that that is
> requirement.

Mmm...I don't think so.  After all, that's what one does when judging
spelling and grammar, right?  I'm applying for a job as an engineer,
not a high school grammar instructor, so who cares?

The point is that it can indicate whether a person is the sort to learn
to do something right or the sort to make it look done right so he/she
can get it out the door.  Of course, some businesses want their
engineers to do that, so maybe they count it against them?

Mike H.

2005\06\20@144016 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 13:37 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> At 01:18 PM 6/20/2005 -0400, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 15:31 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > > > Oh, and I'd like to dispel a myth you and others have in their posts:
> > > > PDF is NOT secure.
> > >
> > > That of course depends. You can print your document, scan it, and
> > > convert the scan to pdf. Maybe there is a more dircet way to do this.
> > > The result can of course be modified dircetly with graphic tools, or
> > > indirectly by doing OCR first, but neither is as easy as modifying a
> > > 'text' document like word or plain (character mode) pdf.
> >
> >Actually, if you open a PDF with the right tool you can edit it's
> >contents exactly the same as you would in Word. TTYL
>
> What "right tool" would you recommend that can accomplish this?

That depends on your OS. If you're willing to pay Adobe Acrobat does it.

I'm heard of other free alternatives, but I can't find reference to them
now, doh... TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\06\20@144130 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Mmm...I don't think so.  After all, that's what one does when judging
> spelling and grammar, right?

No, that is something that is visible in the end result.

> The point is that it can indicate whether a person is the
> sort to learn to do something right or (snip)

I have no problem with that, provided that I can agree with what is
regarded as right, and that it is made explicit. When the stated
requirement is a word document but the implied requirement is a word
document that is constructed (the not-visible-in-printing aspect) in a
certain way that should IMO be made explicit.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\20@151440 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 02:40 PM 6/20/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>That depends on your OS. If you're willing to pay Adobe Acrobat does it.

Yes I am, and no, it doesn't. On *some* documents you can edit individual
lines,
or maybe only *parts* of words, depending on the application that created the
file. You lose the styles, the ability to flow text and virtually
everything else
of value in the formatting . *If* you're lucky you can extract the raw
ASCII text,
but even that isn't for sure (some documents are images of text overlaid over
error-ridden OCR'd text-- that's what the famous 28 volumes of the MIT
Radiation
Lab Series are like. You can search for words such as "pulse" but 1/3 of
the time it
was OCR'd as "puke" (no joke). Other times it's so broken up that it's faster
to re-type the text. And all this is assuming the author has not locked the
document. Yes, you can break the encryption, but...  And the document may
only embed a subset of the font so if you want to use a q and there's no q,
and you don't own the font..

>I'm heard of other free alternatives, but I can't find reference to them
>now, doh... TTYL

Adobe Illustrator will open PDFs and allow more editing in some cases,
but realistically you can't unscramble an egg. And a PDF is a more-or-less
thoroughly scrambled egg, depending on how it was created.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
TakeThisOuTspeffEraseMEspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\06\20@152959 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> I was once in the office of some investment bankers, and they were tossing
> every resume that contained the word "dynamic". ;-)

In the office of the venture capital fund next door they were probably
tossing every resume that contained the word "stable", at the same time
;-)

Peter

2005\06\20@153003 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Herbert Graf wrote:

> 1. HR types don't want to have 14 different applications for all the
> formats out there. DOC and plain text are the LOWEST common denominator.

DOC is NOT the lowest common denominator. Not if you use a different
Word version than the reader, by a LONG LONG LONG shot. However it iTHE
format that can:
a) transfer a virus in the form of a macro
b) flow so badly in the reader's page that he would discard it
c) lock up a computer hard (using certain advanced Word files in older
Words)

Peter

2005\06\20@200912 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Mike Hord wrote:

> The point is that it can indicate whether a person is the sort to learn
> to do something right or the sort to make it look done right so he/she
> can get it out the door.  

It may indicate that, but Wouter brought up the point of an automatically
generated Word document. The source may well be nicely structured, but
generators have a tendency to do these things differently than manual
creation.

Ever looked at HTML generated from any of the many site generators? You
shouldn't hire someone who writes something like that by hand, but if you
ask for a small example site and get that stuff, it just may show that the
guy knows to use a tool you haven't thought of. If you wanted nicely
structured HTML that can be used to automate it with ASP or PHP or JSP or
whatever, then that should be specified.

As well as styles in a resume. Somebody might use styles for all documents
he has more than one of or where customers like to change the preferences
for heading colors, but since he has only one resume and he doesn't change
his preferences, he doesn't use styles there. Maybe...

Gerhard

2005\06\20@201157 by William Couture

face picon face
On 6/19/05, William Couture <RemoveMEbcouturespamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> I'd appreciate it if some of the people on this list could look at my resume
> and give me some feedback.  Or pass it to someone who might be interested
> (after any obvious problems have been fixed).

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments.

I've made some changes, and improved versions are at
  http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.doc
and
  http://www.picemulator.com/resume05.rtf

Furthur nits, typos, and tenses welcome.

Later,
  Bill

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2005\06\21@043531 by ajsmith

picon face
>> "A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the
>> formatting.
>> Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie
>> no styles)
>> you get binned."
>
> Maybe appropriate when you apply as Word specialist. But what about
> someone who *generates* his .doc files from some other format? (I don't
> do that at the moment, but it is just the sort of things I often do - I
> do generate most of the html on my website).
>
> Wouter van Ooijen


Sorry, I did forget to mention that she is after people with Word skills
(publishing industry), merely writing 'advanced Word' on your resume like
everyone else doesn't count.

Another friend applies two criteria for weeding out painters (he's a
builder/painter).  He first looks at the vehicle they drive up in, his
theory is better vehicle, better painter.  (I don't really agree).  The
main test is looking at their paintbrushes.  If they haven't been cleaned
properly, no job.

I guess it's like hiring programmers, never mind the code, check the
comments.

I do wish HR would go away.  I much prefer the 'demonstrate your skills'
method to the 'guess the HR buzzword to make it thru the filters' one.

Tony

2005\06\21@044903 by ajsmith

picon face
>> "A friend of mine asks for Word format, then she checks the
>> formatting.
>> Never mind what the text says, if the formatting is wrong (ie
>> no styles)
>> you get binned."
>
> I wonder what her reply is if they ask for a reason for rejection.


"Inadequate skill level".  I forgot to mention she's in publishing, and
Word skills were needed.  She just hits 'show formatting', if that's ok
then she reads the resume.  Before you say 'but what if someone else wrote
it?', the people applying should've written their own.

She looks at every resume, but doesn't read them all.  More honest than
keyword filtering.

Tony


2005\06\21@050412 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Sorry, I did forget to mention that she is after people with
> Word skills (publishing industry)

That of course changes everything.

> I do wish HR would go away.  I much prefer the 'demonstrate
> your skills'
> method to the 'guess the HR buzzword to make it thru the filters' one.

They can have some use in weeding out the obviously unfitted candidates,
so you can spend your time more efficiently assesing the ones that
escape their notch filters. That of course assumes that they (HR)
recognise the importance of peer (your) opinion.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\21@052151 by ajsmith

picon face

>> 1. HR types don't want to have 14 different applications for all the
>> formats out there. DOC and plain text are the LOWEST common denominator.
>
> DOC is NOT the lowest common denominator. Not if you use a different
> Word version than the reader, by a LONG LONG LONG shot. However it iTHE
> format that can:
> a) transfer a virus in the form of a macro
> b) flow so badly in the reader's page that he would discard it
> c) lock up a computer hard (using certain advanced Word files in older
> Words)


The said, Word DOC is the standard format, where standard=common.
Actually, the standard format is whatever HR asks for, and they usually
use MS-Office/Windows as that's what most employers use.  (Don't forget
the Golden Rule.)

You may get the occasional graphics designer asking for PDF, or a lawyer
asking for WordPerfect, but that's rare.

Tony

2005\06\21@054732 by ajsmith

picon face
{Quote hidden}

It depends what you're hiring for, you may not want to fill a Dreamweaver
job if the candidate resume was done in FrontPage.

For a Word DOC, when people want to make something a heading, they
highlight it, increase the font and bold it.  Someone who knows Word would
set it to the correct style.

In HTML you'd wrap <h1> tags around it rather than use <font>.  This
applies even if using an editor like FrontPage.  CSS would be even better.
So someone who used <h1> tags & FrontPage has (maybe!) better skills than
a <font> & Dreamweaver combo.

People who know Word always use styles from habit.  My friend just checked
for this.

In Olin's case, he checks for absolute vs relocatable code.  Guess who
he'd hire!

Tony

2005\06\21@075915 by olin piclist

face picon face
ajsmith@rivernet.com.au wrote:
> In Olin's case, he checks for absolute vs relocatable code.  Guess who
> he'd hire!

You have to get past some other filters before it's worth my time looking at
your source code.

First, I just give the resume a quick look for form.  If it looks like a
mess it goes in the recylcing bin immediately.  Attention to detail is very
important for EEs and embedded software engineers.  While a neat resume
doesn't prove anything, a sloppy one certainly does.

If the experience and background look right and the candidate didn't say
anything stupid over the phone, we bring him (or her, but I'm not going to
continue wasting time on PC) in for an interview.  This is where he gets a
good technical grilling.  Anyone that can't stand the heat isn't the right
fit.  The right people usually like the challenge.  I don't care how many
zillion years of experience someone claims to have, he still has to prove
his skills to me.  For EEs I may draw a few simple circuits and ask what
they do.  You'd be surprised how many EEs that claim 10 or more years of
experience can't identify an opamp with positive feedback.

The big question is always to pick a system you are familiar with the inner
workings of and describe it.  We ask questions as we are trying to
understand it, and jump on any inconsistencies.  This really shows you
someone's thought process, which is all too often muddled and confused.
It's also amazing how many people jump right into the details without
providing the bigger picture.  Information without context is no information
at all.  You might think this is intuitive, but apparently not.

If the candidate hasn't been thrown out yet, then I might look at code
samples if they are available.  Mostly I don't look at the code at all, but
really want to see the level of documentation.  If it happens to be PIC
code, I probably would look at absolute versus relocatable.  This is a lot
like checking whether a supposed Word expert uses styles.  I will try to
find something in the code to pick on just to see what the respone is.  I
definitely don't want to hear "but that was just a one-off" (so why are you
showing it to me?), or "It had to be done quickly so there wasn't time to
write a lot of comments".  You get tossed out on the spot for that one.
I've actually had someone show up to an interview proudly presenting me with
a 2 inch thick binder of assembly code, with about two comments per page.
Needless to say, that was a quick interview.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\06\21@084043 by Tony Smith

picon face
> If the candidate hasn't been thrown out yet, then I might look at code
> samples if they are available.  Mostly I don't look at the code at all,
> but
> really want to see the level of documentation.  If it happens to be PIC
> code, I probably would look at absolute versus relocatable.  This is a lot
> like checking whether a supposed Word expert uses styles.  I will try to
> find something in the code to pick on just to see what the respone is.  I
> definitely don't want to hear "but that was just a one-off" (so why are
> you
> showing it to me?), or "It had to be done quickly so there wasn't time to
> write a lot of comments".  You get tossed out on the spot for that one.
> I've actually had someone show up to an interview proudly presenting me
> with
> a 2 inch thick binder of assembly code, with about two comments per page.
> Needless to say, that was a quick interview.


Ouch.  Was one of comments the infamous X=X+1 Add 1 to counter?

That type of interview seems to be fairly rare (YMMV), I haven't had one
like that for ages (software development).

The people doing the interviews tend to be very non-technical.  You'd
expect that from HR or headhunters, but not from the client.  I always
bring examples (screenshots, code etc) but never get asked for it, and
they're not interested in seeing it anyway.  Odd.  Given most of my work
is cleaning up after others, you'd think they'd learn, even if it's to ask
the right questions.

The flip side is that they don't tell you things... that you find out on
day 2 of the job...  Hmmmm.

Tony

2005\06\21@113856 by Mike Hord

picon face
> First, I just give the resume a quick look for form.  If it looks like a
> mess it goes in the recylcing bin immediately.  Attention to detail is very
> important for EEs and embedded software engineers.  While a neat resume
> doesn't prove anything, a sloppy one certainly does.

What is a "mess" versus "neat"?  My chief worry is
whether I'm including too much or not enough detail-
did I accurately convey my responsibilities and
skills, without getting too mired in details?

> The big question is always to pick a system you are familiar with the inner
> workings of and describe it.  We ask questions as we are trying to
> understand it, and jump on any inconsistencies.  This really shows you
> someone's thought process, which is all too often muddled and confused.
> It's also amazing how many people jump right into the details without
> providing the bigger picture.  Information without context is no information
> at all.  You might think this is intuitive, but apparently not.

Do you require that it be done verbally, or do you provide
scratch paper or better yet, a nice big whiteboard?

Mike H.

2005\06\21@134330 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> What is a "mess" versus "neat"?  My chief worry is
> whether I'm including too much or not enough detail-
> did I accurately convey my responsibilities and
> skills, without getting too mired in details?

The mess/neat is just the visual look, not the content.  It's a measure of
attitude "eh, good enough" versus "this needs to be right".

{Quote hidden}

Always with a nice big whiteboard.  They are encouraged to draw block
diagrams, flow charts, or whatever to help explain the system.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\06\21@151733 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> People who know Word always use styles from habit.  My friend
> just checked for this.

Hmmm. I think I know some Word tricks that few people know, but my
experience is from ages ago, I don't thinks styles even existed at that
time.

> In Olin's case, he checks for absolute vs relocatable code.  Guess who
> he'd hire!

When I'd hire I would reject both absolute and relocatable :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\21@155220 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jun 21, 2005, at 1:49 AM, ajsmithEraseMEspam.....rivernet.com.au wrote:

> She looks at every resume, but doesn't read them all.

If the person doing the hiring "looks at every resume", I think they're
free to use whatever criteria the want for narrowing them down.

It's when HR starts throwing away resumes for reasons that the hiring
manager doesn't care about that frustration sets in.  Of course, if
the number of resumes coming in greatly exceeds the ability of any
one person to look at them, I'm not sure what the alternative would be.

BillW

2005\06\21@161935 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jun 21, 2005, at 12:15 PM, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> People who know Word always use styles from habit.  My friend
>> just checked for this.
>
> Hmmm. I think I know some Word tricks that few people know, but my
> experience is from ages ago, I don't thinks styles even existed
> at that time.
>
Resumes should not use "tricks."  They're a common enough document
that they should serve as a shining example of "industry standard
practices", unless you're really sure that you want your particular
"trick" to stand out somehow...

Back in college, I had a coworker whose resume proclaimed in proud
words that it had required six different software utilities to produce,
four of which had been written by himself.  Even then I found that a
bit boggling; in time I've come to understand some of the details of
why this was NOT a good thing.  (this WAS in the wordstar on CPM age,
so it's not like he skipped perfectly good alternatives, but still...)

BillW

2005\06\21@170603 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 01:19 PM 6/21/2005 -0700, you wrote:


>Back in college, I had a coworker whose resume proclaimed in proud
>words that it had required six different software utilities to produce,
>four of which had been written by himself.  Even then I found that a
>bit boggling; in time I've come to understand some of the details of
>why this was NOT a good thing.  (this WAS in the wordstar on CPM age,
>so it's not like he skipped perfectly good alternatives, but still...)

Doesn't everyone have a colophon page at the end of their curriculum vitae?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\06\21@210751 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
ajsmith@rivernet.com.au wrote:

> It depends what you're hiring for, you may not want to fill a Dreamweaver
> job if the candidate resume was done in FrontPage.

You didn't say that she was hiring Word experts :)  

Gerhard

2005\06\21@235235 by Tony Smith

picon face
> RemoveMEajsmithEraseMEspamEraseMErivernet.com.au wrote:
>
>> It depends what you're hiring for, you may not want to fill a
>> Dreamweaver
>> job if the candidate resume was done in FrontPage.
>
> You didn't say that she was hiring Word experts :)
>
> Gerhard
> --


Yes, I know, ooops!

It's interesting as she hires 3 different types of people.  By her
definition, she usually doesn't hire experts.

Basic - Essentially a typist, knows about styles, templates, fields etc,
so won't create a mess.  'Here's a draft manuscript, fix it using this
template'.  You find a lot of this type at law firms, and very few
everywhere else.  Law firms have millions of templates, are very fussy
about the layouts, and want it yesterday.

Advanced - Designer types, knows publishing and layout, creates templates,
fiddly mail merges, can nest fields 7 deep etc.  Knows all the weird
stuff, like why leading is pronounced ledding, and what is means.

Technical - knows Word VBA, and a lot of the weird stuff. (ie me! - at
present I'm using Access to generate questionaires in Word, email them out
and process the responses, all automated)

Advanced & Technical can be considered complementary roles.

Note that her definition of Basic is considered Advanced by everyone else.
Her first question at interviews is 'Name two reasons why you'd use
styles'.  She has a list of about 30.

HR sending her a dozen people because they wrote 'Advanced Word' on their
resume isn't helpful.  It's the difference between using Word (everyone)
and knowing Word (the RTFM crowd).

Tony

2005\06\22@020428 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >> People who know Word always use styles from habit.  My friend
> >> just checked for this.
> >
> > Hmmm. I think I know some Word tricks that few people know, but my
> > experience is from ages ago, I don't thinks styles even existed
> > at that time.
> >
> Resumes should not use "tricks."

I did not say they should, I just said that in a sense I know Word very
very well, but is was Word as it existed many years ago, and I don't
recall styles as existing at that moment at all. For that reason (and
for the 'generate' argument) I protested against 'People who know Word
always use styles from habit'.

BTW why should resume's not use tricks? I still hold that a resume is
essentiallie something that can be printed on paper. Unless one is
specifically asked for a resume in word that will be judged on how it is
'word'ed.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\22@044548 by Tony Smith

picon face
{Quote hidden}

WinWord has always had styles, you might be thinking of WordPerfect or
Word for DOS, (that no-one used).  WordPerfect used tags, similar to HTML.
Like HTML, formatting was done 'on-the-fly', and you had to make sure
your tags matched up (hence the Reveal Codes command to see why half your
document became bold).  OpenOffice etc use styles too.

You could say Word = CSS, and WordPerfect = Normal HTML.

I'll stand by my statement that if you don't use styles, you don't know Word.

And I second the use of tricks in resumes.  After all, it may be the only
chance you'll get to show off your skills.  Although musicians prefer
demos tapes (cds?) to a bit of paper as their resume. :)

Tony

2005\06\22@064511 by vasile surducan

picon face
On 6/22/05, Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterspam_OUTspamKILLspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > >> People who know Word always use styles from habit.  My friend
> > >> just checked for this.
> > >
> > > Hmmm. I think I know some Word tricks that few people know, but my
> > > experience is from ages ago, I don't thinks styles even existed
> > > at that time.
> > >
> > Resumes should not use "tricks."
>
> I did not say they should, I just said that in a sense I know Word very
> very well, but is was Word as it existed many years ago, and I don't
> recall styles as existing at that moment at all. For that reason (and
> for the 'generate' argument) I protested against 'People who know Word
> always use styles from habit'.
>
> BTW why should resume's not use tricks? I still hold that a resume is
> essentiallie something that can be printed on paper. Unless one is
> specifically asked for a resume in word that will be judged on how it is
> 'word'ed.

 Well, the best trick I suggest to the resume originator is to become
a little younger....

Experience is not what the man is doing with own life but what the life is
doing with the man.

Vasile

2005\06\22@072953 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Tony Smith wrote:

>> You didn't say that she was hiring Word experts :)
>
> Yes, I know, ooops!
>
> It's interesting as she hires 3 different types of people.  By her
> definition, she usually doesn't hire experts.

And here I agree fully... anybody who works with Word as her main tool
should not only know styles, but have a habit of using them. And should
think of showing that in the (Word) resume when applying for that job.

Gerhard

2005\06\22@115924 by John Ferrell

face picon face
If it that kind of place, it would be best they NOT hire me.
John Ferrell    
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Chops Westfield" <RemoveMEwestfwTakeThisOuTspamspammac.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Resume feedback?


{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\06\22@140257 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:03 AM, John Ferrell wrote:

>> if the number of resumes coming in greatly exceeds the ability of any
>> one person to look at them, I'm not sure what the alternative would
>> be.

The problem happens about when your company becomes big and well known
enough to start getting an influx of unsolicited resumes.  That is,
people send you resumes "I'm great!  I want a job!" rather than
repsonding
to a particular and specific known job opening.  If the applicant can't
be bothered directing their resume to the "right" place, it becomes
HR's job to do so.  Unfortunately, HR isn't very good at it; they're
merely "better than nothing."

BillW

2005\06\22@175409 by Mike Hord

picon face
> >> if the number of resumes coming in greatly exceeds the ability of any
> >> one person to look at them, I'm not sure what the alternative would
> >> be.
>
> The problem happens about when your company becomes big and well known
> enough to start getting an influx of unsolicited resumes.  That is,
> people send you resumes "I'm great!  I want a job!" rather than
> repsonding
> to a particular and specific known job opening.  If the applicant can't
> be bothered directing their resume to the "right" place, it becomes
> HR's job to do so.  Unfortunately, HR isn't very good at it; they're
> merely "better than nothing."

This occurs horribly at college job fairs.  If for some reason you find
yourself attending one (or close enough to one to buzz through and
pick up some swag), you'll see VAST lines at the Big Name booths
(IBM, Cisco, Boeing, etc.) while some (many) smaller companies
frequently have no wait at all to talk to a recruiter.

Mike H.

2005\06\22@203205 by Tony Smith

picon face
>
> On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:03 AM, John Ferrell wrote:
>
>>> if the number of resumes coming in greatly exceeds the ability of any
>>> one person to look at them, I'm not sure what the alternative would
>>> be.
>
> The problem happens about when your company becomes big and well known
> enough to start getting an influx of unsolicited resumes.  That is,
> people send you resumes "I'm great!  I want a job!" rather than
> repsonding
> to a particular and specific known job opening.  If the applicant can't
> be bothered directing their resume to the "right" place, it becomes
> HR's job to do so.  Unfortunately, HR isn't very good at it; they're
> merely "better than nothing."
>
> BillW


Job sites & email is the main problem.  People can store their resume
online, tick 300 jobs and fire it off.  Now when everyone does that...
You may only be applying for one job, but you'll get buried in the deluge.
HR keyword filter, then take the first 20.

I've applied for roles where they want specific skills (say MS Word VBA),
and got the automated "Sorry..." message back.  Then you see the role
advertised again, and again.  500 people saw 'MS Word' and applied because
it takes no effort.  My resume just didn't make it thru.

Sucks all round!

Tony


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