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PICList Thread
'[OT] Re: Jal keeps setting the wrong oscillator ty'
2005\08\26@152959 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
PicDude says:
> You should try the 7x10-Minilathe list.  90% politics, 1%
> about lathes, and the other 9% made up of the occasional
> post asking why there is so much politics.  The list is
> actually made up of a bunch of experts who know everything
> and so don't need to ask/discuss much else.

Nice to feel needed...

> BTW, why require the Yahoo JAL list to be closed?  Why not
> add the tag here anyway, and if people wish to use this one
> instead, they can do so?

Because adding a Tag has a cost associated with it. Not $, time and effort,
and most costly: Confusion. If the JAL list wants to be hosted here, and
they are serious about it, meaning that they will close that list, then I
will incur the cost. Otherwise, I won't.

I monitor the JAL list from time to time, and they are a VERY diverse and
interesting group. A lot of ESL (English as a Second Language) and with a
European point of view. Something that I would love to see more of on this
list if only because it adds to the diversity. The PICList really is very
USA centric which is not a bad thing, but I do believe that a more varied
point of view would be better. For example, there are lots of products,
ideas, resources, etc... that are available in Europe that don't get
discussed here because we just don't hear about them. Many times, there are
opportunities for the exchange of ideas, work, or products that are easy to
miss.

As a result of keeping my mind and ears open, I am able to distribute
several kits, devices, etc... That are made outside the USA and to do so at
prices that allow a small(!) profit for me and still provide a very good
price to US customers.

The same is true for development and ideas. The JAL list has a full on
wireless Ethernet thing developed, open source, that has not ever been
mentioned on PICList as far as I can remember. I'm sure there is more.

And say what you will about "stealing US jobs" but there are some absolutely
brilliant programmers overseas who will work for peanuts. I had one of the
very brightest programmers ever to post on the PICList do work for hire for
me (code that runs on my server now) for $12/hr. That is pure brilliance for
$12/hr. An absolute steal.

Now, before you get hot about some US programmer not making money, think
about what Scott Dattalo said just the other day about finishing SDCC. He
said it would take 10k man hours at $120 per hour because it would need a
top flight programmer. I KNOW that the programmer I hired could have done it
for 1/10th that cost. There is NO way you are going to raise $1,200,000 for
a project like that. $120,000 is not totally out of the ball park. Unlikely,
yes, but not impossible. Divided by 2000 list members, that is $60/each
rather than $600. And the result would be a totally open source, C language
that outputs professional code for the PIC community. Pretty cool goal. Not
possible with a US programmer.

Now, this is really close to politics, and there is a good chance that
someone is going to take it over the edge, but I think the actual items I've
discussed here are NOT political and ARE important enough to make the risk
worth while. Please don't go on about the economy, or job loss, or foreign
products or "not in house" problems in the USA. Do discuss the need (or not)
to have more exchange, discourse, diversity, etc...

And for goodness sake: KEEP THE TAG [OT]

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2005\08\26@153443 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
>   I think I'll be sad. There's about 4 or 5 years since I'm
> visiting this list.
> High quality "old boy" people there. High fantasy. Enlighten minds.
> And professional guys.
>  The only advantage of jal list versus pic list is the
> relative low numbers of posts which makes it much easy to
> read. The posts on piclist  are too long, too much poetry.
> Like my answer here.
>
> cheers,
> Vasile
>

Good bring JAL -> PICList: We learn short post. You only read [JAL].

James.

2005\08\26@155405 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> If the JAL list wants to be
> hosted here, and
> they are serious about it, meaning that they will close that
> list, then I will incur the cost.

I don't think 'they' will, and the ones that would want are probably
already on the piclist. And even if I would close down the Jallist (I am
not sure I have that right, hell, I am not even sure who has those
rights! probably Eur) some part of the current subscribers would
probably set up a new jallist. It takes only 5 minutes to set up a jahoo
list.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\08\26@163411 by Stef Mientki

flavicon
face


Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>>If the JAL list wants to be
>>hosted here, and
>>they are serious about it, meaning that they will close that
>>list, then I will incur the cost.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't think 'they' will, and the ones that would want are probably
>already on the piclist.
>
fully agree !
The JAL-list has a much lower (psychological) entrance-level
for newbies (which I'm probably not ;-)  then the PIClist.

Stef Mientki
(another PIC-list and JAL-list reader/witer)

>  
>

2005\08\26@175433 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
> The JAL-list has a much lower (psychological) entrance-level
> for newbies (which I'm probably not ;-)  then the PIClist.
>
> Stef Mientki
> (another PIC-list and JAL-list reader/witer)


Does the fact that it is hosted on Yahoo have anything to do with that? If I
were to make the PICList archive open to the public without registration
ONLY for JAL posts, would that be any better?

It just kills me to see people put up with all that Yahoo advertising.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2005\08\26@183905 by Stef Mientki

flavicon
face


James Newton, Host wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No.

> If I
>were to make the PICList archive open to the public without registration
>ONLY for JAL posts, would that be any better?
>  
>
No please keep the registration.
What I meant to say is that the level of the discussions on the JAL-list
is much lower then the PIClist,
there are really newbies on the JALlist, who have never programmed, and
has no sense at all about electronics.
When you put your first question on a new list,
you listen for while to the list,
see if you can follow the discussion,
and if not, ... search for another list.


>It just kills me to see people put up with all that Yahoo advertising.
>  
>
Sorry, but I never see any Yahoo advertisement, ...
... it's just a matter of how your read the list (by email).

Although I like the piclist very much,
every time I want to post a question (after not having done that for a
month),
I forget to add the tag, that's small advantage of a Yahoo list ;-)

Stef Mientki

>  
>

2005\08\26@190736 by John Nall

picon face
James Newton, Host wrote:

>> Does the fact that it is hosted on Yahoo have anything to do with that? If I
>were to make the PICList archive open to the public without registration
>ONLY for JAL posts, would that be any better?
>
>It just kills me to see people put up with all that Yahoo advertising.
>  
>

Well, I just cannot resist putting in my two cents worth here, for what
it is worth. :-)  I read the Jal list on Yahoo for awhile, and the
advertising didn't bother me.  (Most ads are blocked on my system, and
what the software doesn't take care of, my internal filtering seems to
take care of).  What did turn me off, to be perfectly candid, was that
it was kind of "blah."  There may be some sort of cultural difference
between Europeans (which (who? whom?) mostly seems to be who post there)
and the USA folk.  The Europeans seem to get in, say what they have to
say, and get out.  (The way guys shop).  The USA folk seem to need to
chew on it for awhile, and discuss it, and bring in all sorts of
extraneous points, most of which often seem to have little to do with
the original point of  the OP.  Which does not keep it from being
interesting, though.

John

2005\08\26@231354 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
John Nall said
> of "blah."  There may be some sort of cultural difference
> between Europeans (which (who? whom?) mostly seems to be who
> post there) and the USA folk.  The Europeans seem to get in,
> say what they have to say, and get out.  (The way guys shop).
>  The USA folk seem to need to chew on it for awhile, and
> discuss it, and bring in all sorts of extraneous points, most
> of which often seem to have little to do with the original
> point of  the OP.  Which does not keep it from being
> interesting, though.

All this talk about cultural differences got me thinking about who is on the
PICList and I took a second to implement the feature in the PICList archive
that gmane.org has were it displays the top level domain as an icon if it
knows it. It shows the flag of the country for 2 character tdl's and the
company icon for .com's that it knows or the logo for the .edu if it has
that. It uses a database of little icons called "picons" from indiana.edu
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/picons/ftp/faq.html

It knows a lot of companies as well so if you are someonespamKILLspamibm.com the IBM
logo will pop up next to your name in the browser. It didn't have microchip
so I added that... Don't want one of THOSE guys sneaking up on me! ;P If
your company isn't in there or you want me to add your personal icon based
on your email domain, PayPal me $10 and a logo and I'll set you up ;)

Anyway, it's kind of fun and it lets you see at a glance if someone is from
the UK or Lower Sobovia. Let me tell you... I'm surprised! You don't pick up
on it when you just see somebody's name or sig line, but there are a LOT of
PICList posters from outside the USA. We are more diverse than I thought.

It may not be that Europeans are short spoken... It may just be that the
PICList attracts the verbose from everywhere.

In any case, best wishes to the JAL crowd either way.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2005\08\27@011400 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>> There may be some sort of cultural difference
>> between Europeans (which (who? whom?) mostly seems to be who
>> post there) and the USA folk.  The Europeans seem to get in,
>> say what they have to say, and get out.  (The way guys shop).
>>  The USA folk seem to need to chew on it for awhile, and
>> discuss it, and bring in all sorts of extraneous points, most
>> of which often seem to have little to do with the original
>> point of  the OP.  Which does not keep it from being
>> interesting, though.
>>
I don't think this is a Europe vs USA thing; I've been on plenty
of "blah" mailing lists/newsgroups that have mostly american
membership.  PICList just happens to do especially well in this
area - there's more signal in PICList's noise than there is in
in the "signal" part of many mailing lists.

BillW

2005\08\27@033311 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Does the fact that it is hosted on Yahoo have anything to do
> with that? If I
> were to make the PICList archive open to the public without
> registration
> ONLY for JAL posts, would that be any better?
>
> It just kills me to see people put up with all that Yahoo advertising.

[Just my opnion, I'm not the master of the Jallist]

The most heared complaint about the jallist is the spam, not the ads.
Putting piclist:[jal] open for non-subscribers might attract exactly
that!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\08\31@044224 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>It just kills me to see people put up with all that Yahoo advertising.
>>
>Sorry, but I never see any Yahoo advertisement, ...
>... it's just a matter of how your read the list (by email).

Me neither. Using non-html email makes the adverts go away nicely. Only
trouble I have is when I try and look at the archives, and it wants to have
every third one as an advert before looking at the message. Hit back key,
and click link again soon circumvents that.

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