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'[OT] RANT, Fedex charging me for my customer's GST'
2005\06\01@233636 by David Schmidt

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Just have to vent here.
Customer in Canada bought an item from me back in dec of 2004 for $170.  I
shipped per his request via Fedex Ground, $10.50 shipping, he receives item
~ a week later.

Yesterday I get a letter from Fedex saying that I am responsible for the GST
and brokerage fees for that shipment because they couldn't collect from him
and per their agreement 'the sender is responsible for these fees if they
cannot collect from the recipient".

So now I may be stuck with a $50.00 charge!
How the heck does one protect oneself from this?  Always ship USPS?  Never
prepare shipping documents online or use your own pre-printed account labels
so the shipper cannot come back at you?

This really ruined my day yesterday.  I emailed the customer but have yet to
hear from him.

Dave

2005\06\01@235732 by Robert Rolf

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If there were fees owning for clearances, Fed Ex should
not have released the package to him.
That's where shipping collect is a good idea.
GST (7%) on $170 ($212C) is about $15.
So Fed Ex is charging $40US for clearances? GOUGERS!
If the paperwork was in order (MA forms, triplicate
invoices, etc.) it should have been trivial to clear it.

And if the customer refuses to pay, he gets no warrantee
or support because GST and clearances are HIS responsibility
and having NOT paid them, you are still owner of the goods.

So much for the "Free Trade Agreement". Seems to only work
in one direction.

Robert

David Schmidt wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\06\02@000046 by Jinx

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www.lotsofjokes.com/viewer.asp?ID=335&Filename=pic_0146.jpg

(sorry, I saw it this morning)

2005\06\02@001041 by David Schmidt

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The breakdown was:
GST $12.12
Brokerage $25.50
PST $13.85

Total = $56.97 Can, $49.33 US

I don't know why they released it without collecting GST first.

Dave

----- Original Message ----- > If there were fees owning for clearances, Fed
Ex should
> not have released the package to him.
> That's where shipping collect is a good idea.
> GST (7%) on $170 ($212C) is about $15.
> So Fed Ex is charging $40US for clearances? GOUGERS!
> If the paperwork was in order (MA forms, triplicate
> invoices, etc.) it should have been trivial to clear it.

2005\06\02@001645 by Sunward Aerospace

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> Just have to vent here.
> Customer in Canada bought an item from me back in dec of 2004 for $170.  I
> shipped per his request via Fedex Ground, $10.50 shipping, he receives
item
snip
> How the heck does one protect oneself from this?  Always ship USPS?

One is to use the post office.  Actually the better way as the fees are
lower.

Second is ship via courier but pay for it in cash at the drop off counter.
( ie - don't do it online )

A third way is to use the receiver's courier account, but I would do it this
way only if you know them.

Angelo Castellano
Sunward Aerospace Group Limited
http://www.sunward1.com
spam_OUTinfoTakeThisOuTspamsunward1.com

2005\06\02@043030 by Mike Harrison

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On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:36:35 -0700, you wrote:

>Just have to vent here.
>Customer in Canada bought an item from me back in dec of 2004 for $170.  I
>shipped per his request via Fedex Ground, $10.50 shipping, he receives item
>~ a week later.
>
>Yesterday I get a letter from Fedex saying that I am responsible for the GST
>and brokerage fees for that shipment because they couldn't collect from him
>and per their agreement 'the sender is responsible for these fees if they
>cannot collect from the recipient".
>
>So now I may be stuck with a $50.00 charge!
>How the heck does one protect oneself from this?  Always ship USPS?  Never
>prepare shipping documents online or use your own pre-printed account labels
>so the shipper cannot come back at you?
>
>This really ruined my day yesterday.  I emailed the customer but have yet to
>hear from him.
>
>Dave

In general using Fedex/UPS for international is a bad idea as they often charge excessive customs
clearance fees. However I believe that it is possible for these to be prepaid by the sender, so if a
customer really wants to use them, tell them they will have to prepay all taxes & fees.

Secondly add a term to your conditions of sale that the customer accepts responsibility for all fees
at their end,

2005\06\02@052106 by Howard Winter

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David,

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:36:35 -0700, David Schmidt wrote:

> Yesterday I get a letter from Fedex saying that I am responsible for the GST
> and brokerage fees for that shipment because they couldn't collect from him
> and per their agreement 'the sender is responsible for these fees if they
> cannot collect from the recipient".

Don't use shippers who have this clause in their "agreement"!  I've never heard of this, and certainly
anything delivered to me that has a charge due won't be delivered if they can't collect it, either by the
Royal Mail or any of the independant delivery companies.  And they charge a non-trivial amount for collecting
it, too!

Check Fedex's "agreement" and see if it really says this, or if they are just trying it on.  Obviously the
recipient is the one who should pay this, because it's part of his cost of buying the thing.

Good luck!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\06\02@052950 by Howard Winter

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Roland,

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:17:55, Roland wrote:

> Customer deposits full fee into your account + shipping costs

Unfortunately you have no way of knowing the amount beforehand - Customs decide the tax/duty amount and the
shipper decides the brokerage fee.  If you send it by post (to the UK at least) there is a free amount below
which they charge no tax/duty, and although this figure is laid down they often let stuff through which is
more than this (I usually find US$50 is "safe") and the Royal Mail don't charge their fee if there's no money
to collect, so you may have to pay nothing.  The problem is there is no way to know for sure if this will
happen.

The usual way is that the shipper won't deliver without collecting the money, and I'm a bit amazed that Fedex
did so in this case.

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\06\02@064135 by Gerhard Fiedler

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David Schmidt wrote:

> Yesterday I get a letter from Fedex saying that I am responsible for the
> GST and brokerage fees for that shipment because they couldn't collect
> from him and per their agreement 'the sender is responsible for these
> fees if they cannot collect from the recipient".

This seems to happen a lot here (Brazil), because the fees are high and
unsuspecting citizens buying through internet end up not wanting to pay.
I'm reasonably certain that Fedex can't collect that from the sender, but I
don't know.

So check your shipping agreement with Fedex first, ask them where you have
accepted responsibility for them not collecting customs charges from the
receiver. If that should be so, I also would think that they need to show
that they made a reasonable effort to collect. Which, I think, is difficult
if they delivered. Anything "reasonable" would probably include that they
keep the package until they get paid.

Gerhard

2005\06\02@084144 by Dave Lag

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Regarding USPS/Canada Post:
http://www.canadapost.ca/tools/pg/manual/b06-e.asp

Postal Imports
.............
Gifts from friends and relatives, valued at $60CDN or less, are duty and
tax exempt. Goods imported into Canada, valued at $20CDN or more, are
subject to all duties and taxes.

Mail items that are assessed for duties and taxes, or require inspection
for compliance to other government regulations (e.g. agricultural goods)
are subject to additional fees.

All documentation must be included when an item is delivered or
returned. The reasons for the return must be marked on the item and on
the documentation.

Canada Post has taken over many of the material-handling and
revenue-collection functions previously performed by Canada Customs. A
handling fee of $5CDN per dutiable or taxable mail item is applied
($8CDN for EMS items). This fee is in line with the government's efforts
to help recover costs from those who benefit from services, and is
similar to arrangements in the United States and other countries.



Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\06\02@092411 by Mark Jordan

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On 2 Jun 2005 at 10:21, Howard Winter wrote:

> Check Fedex's "agreement" and see if it really says this, or if they are
> just trying it on.  Obviously the recipient is the one who should pay this,
> because it's part of his cost of buying the thing.
>

       Even if that "agreement" says you have to pay, it doesn't mean it is
legal. I wouldn't pay it.

       Mark



2005\06\02@093435 by rosoftwarecontrol

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remember 20 and 60 CAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I often was bothered with tax, duty, tariff, blah, blah,,,
and plus big 5 CAD hadling/processing/officing fee.
Paying tax is what every body should do, but the
ways to pay are now really organized in a bad way.
In CANADA. Today, I need to pay them again, a bad
day already.








{Original Message removed}

2005\06\02@101204 by Dave Schmidt

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Found this on Fedex's website.  I don't see where this is specific to
Ground shipments but to any Fedex shipment.

http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/popup_tc_intl_body.html#taxes

Dave

>>Check Fedex's "agreement" and see if it really says this, or if they are
>>just trying it on.  Obviously the recipient is the one who should pay this,
>>because it's part of his cost of buying the thing.
>>    
>>

2005\06\02@101505 by Walter Banks

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All,

As a company that ships a lot of courier packages I think
we have seen it all at some time or another.

To start with the Canadian customer is the criminal here

Some comments on the idea's presented to combat this kind
of problem. I am old enough to remember shipping before
couriers, courier companies are better. The courier company
speedy service depends on trust that the accounts will be
paid by those responsible for paying. Part of  that trust
is between the parties shipping and receiving the goods.
When that fails to happen only then will they rely
on the terms of service.

The courier companies can be very creative at working with
the sender to collect from a customer who has broken trust
with both the sender and the courier company.

I don't know why they released it without collecting GST first.

 If the customer had an FedEx account this would be standard
 practice. The assumption is in Canada that an identified
 customer in  good standing can be trusted. Products to
 Canada are routinely released to expedite them to the
 customer and the taxes may be re-evaluated later.
 Declarations that are in error  for example or categorized
 wrong. Routine parcels have no brokerage fees from
 FedEX.

One is to use the post office.  Actually the better way as
the fees are lower.

 Fees are lower and slower but they do collect.

Second is ship via courier but pay for it in cash at the
drop off counter.( ie - don't do it online )

 I had never thought of this but it might work for
 occasional shipments if it happens frequently the
 courier companies will be able to track you in one of
 several ways. For transborder shipments the senders
  identity will be checked

A third way is to use the receiver's courier account, but
I would do it this way only if you know them.

 If the receiver refuses to pay the charges will come
 back.

So much for the "Free Trade Agreement". Seems to only work
in one direction.

 Free Trade Agreements work both ways. In this case access
 to Canadian remedies is a lot easier. David email me or call me
 and I will do what ever I can to help. This kind of customer
 behavior hurts everyone in the industry.

Walter Banks





{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\06\02@101516 by Mike Hord

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> This really ruined my day yesterday.  I emailed the customer but have yet to
> hear from him.

My solution at this point is to ditch FedEx unless no other option exists.

A few months ago, they delivered a broken item to me.  It was insured,
so I (naturally) attempted to collect.  It took six weeks.  They picked
up the package, kept it for two weeks, declared it undamaged (it was
electronics, and the damage was functional (as I explained when I
arranged the pick up) but they didn't test for functionality (!)), and
returned it to me.  During that two weeks I received NO updates, was
unable to get updates through customer service and indeed had no
record that they, in fact, had received my package and were inspecting
it.  I called them, again, and after another two weeks received
notification that the package was damaged (duh) and that it, and the
payment check, would be returned to the shipper!

Several letters, phone calls, and faxes later, I finally got my money
back.  I never did get the package back.  It took about six weeks
from receipt of package to refund.  I don't have the time to screw
around with that kind of crap.  FedEx has lost my business forever.

Mike H.

PS- I don't understand the mentality of companies like this.  I've run
into it before: a large (or even HUGE) company stiffs me for $50 or
$60 (or in this case, $160), which pisses me off and costs them
all of my future business.  How does that make sense?

2005\06\02@101556 by Mike Hord

picon face
> This really ruined my day yesterday.  I emailed the customer but have yet to
> hear from him.

My solution at this point is to ditch FedEx unless no other option exists.

A few months ago, they delivered a broken item to me.  It was insured,
so I (naturally) attempted to collect.  It took six weeks.  They picked
up the package, kept it for two weeks, declared it undamaged (it was
electronics, and the damage was functional (as I explained when I
arranged the pick up) but they didn't test for functionality (!)), and
returned it to me.  During that two weeks I received NO updates, was
unable to get updates through customer service and indeed had no
record that they, in fact, had received my package and were inspecting
it.  I called them, again, and after another two weeks received
notification that the package was damaged (duh) and that it, and the
payment check, would be returned to the shipper!

Several letters, phone calls, and faxes later, I finally got my money
back.  I never did get the package back.  It took about six weeks
from receipt of package to refund.  I don't have the time to screw
around with that kind of crap.  FedEx has lost my business forever.

Mike H.

PS- I don't understand the mentality of companies like this.  I've run
into it before: a large (or even HUGE) company stiffs me for $50 or
$60 (or in this case, $160), which pisses me off and costs them
all of my future business.  How does that make sense?

2005\06\02@105612 by Dave Schmidt

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Just got off the phone with Fedex.  Here's what I was told
"Fedex invoices the customer for Duties and Taxes at a later date" -
basically the recipient is sent a bill that they should pay, and in my
case they didn't.
Because they didn't pay, I am responsible for the fees, but "I can take
legal action against the recipient if I want"

This is why the package was delivered without first collecting the GST
and brokerage fees.

What complete and utter Bull$$$$.  They deliver, can't collect, and come
back to me for the fees 5 months later!
I was told they do this for all international shipping (though I didn't
get a warm fuzzy that the rep I spoke was well versed in Fedex Int'l policy)
I will NEVER again use Fedex for Int'l shipping.

Dave

2005\06\02@145321 by Robert Rolf

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Dave Schmidt wrote:

> Just got off the phone with Fedex.  Here's what I was told
> "Fedex invoices the customer for Duties and Taxes at a later date" -
> basically the recipient is sent a bill that they should pay, and in my
> case they didn't.
> Because they didn't pay, I am responsible for the fees, but "I can take
> legal action against the recipient if I want"
>
> This is why the package was delivered without first collecting the GST
> and brokerage fees.
>
> What complete and utter Bull$$$$.  They deliver, can't collect, and come
> back to me for the fees 5 months later!
> I was told they do this for all international shipping (though I didn't
> get a warm fuzzy that the rep I spoke was well versed in Fedex Int'l
> policy)
> I will NEVER again use Fedex for Int'l shipping.

UPS is FAR FAR FAR worse!.

Our University makes "Do NOT use UPS" as a condition of
purchase of ANY USA products. Its on the bottom of EVERY
purchase order to the US.
They have had far too much grief with UPS and their incompetence
and extortionist customs & processing fees.

I recently had a USA engineering firm disregard my EXPLICIT
direction to NOT use UPS when they sent up a prototypes for me to
debug. UPS had promised them next day delivery. It took SEVEN
days for them to get it through customs. I had the backup
prototype in under 9 hours with Fed Ex.

Fed Ex does seem to get things where they need to be
even if there is the occasional screw up. If your customer
paid the customs fees, like he SHOULD have, you wouldn't
have a problem with them, would you? Is it Fed Ex's fault that
your customer was a deadbeat? Now you (and PICsters) know better.

Robert

2005\06\02@153506 by Dave Schmidt

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Yep, if he paid I would not have this problem.
If Fedex didn't deliver the package without first collecting the duties
and taxes I would likely not have this problem either.
Taken to an extreme I could just stop shipping to foreign countries -
that would for sure eliminate the risk.  For now I'll just ship USPS to
foreign countries prepaid.  I hear this is really awful too for Canadian
customers (something about having to travel to pickup the package and
also slow customs times).

FWIW I see from the 'My Fedex' section of the fedex website I can
estimate the duties and taxes.  Inputting the details of this particular
order it does quote the GST fees correctly but makes no mention that
there is also a brokerage fee that will be charged.

Dave

> If your customer
> paid the customs fees, like he SHOULD have, you wouldn't
> have a problem with them, would you? Is it Fed Ex's fault that
> your customer was a deadbeat? Now you (and PICsters) know better.


2005\06\02@155641 by Dave King

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Dave

Stick to USPS to north of the border. Fedex, UPS
et al just hose you for fee's. I've had samples
come up via UPS prepaid and then UPs tried to stick
me with a $47ish "assessment fee" and no GST. And that's
happened 9 out of ten times with UPS. They also decided
to deliver to the house at 630am which was the last straw.
The post office delivers to the door at reasonable hours
and is at least fair with tax assessment.

Personally I think Fedex screwed the pooch and should eat it or your
customer should.

Dave


> {Original Message removed}

2005\06\02@155704 by Dave Schmidt

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You guys are probably tired of hearing my rant so this will be my last post.
I just found this website talking about the same thing specifically to
Canada.  Also talks about the 'brokerage' fee that Fedex and UPS charges.

http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jsp?forum=12&thread=810033517

Dave

2005\06\02@160759 by Randy Glenn

picon face
And NAFTA got us... what, again?

On 6/2/05, Dave Schmidt <.....techsavyKILLspamspam@spam@dschmidt.com> wrote:
> You guys are probably tired of hearing my rant so this will be my last post.
> I just found this website talking about the same thing specifically to
> Canada.  Also talks about the 'brokerage' fee that Fedex and UPS charges.
>
> answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jsp?forum=12&thread=810033517
>
> Dave
> -

2005\06\02@161853 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 12:34 -0700, Dave Schmidt wrote:
> Yep, if he paid I would not have this problem.
> If Fedex didn't deliver the package without first collecting the duties
> and taxes I would likely not have this problem either.
> Taken to an extreme I could just stop shipping to foreign countries -
> that would for sure eliminate the risk.  For now I'll just ship USPS to
> foreign countries prepaid.  I hear this is really awful too for Canadian
> customers (something about having to travel to pickup the package and
> also slow customs times).

I don't know about other Canadians, but I for one PREFER USPS/Canada
Post, yes, you have to go to your postal outlet to pick it up, but since
it's on my way home from work that's not a big deal. Heck, nobody is
home during the day, so I always have to end up going to FedEx's depot
to pick up my packages anyways.

The benefit of USPS/Canada Post is the fee is $5 standard, no surprises.
And getting it through customs is no slower then with a courier in my
experience.

FedEx has never really screwed up with me. Purolator is bad, but
tolerable. UPS is HELL, I will NEVER use UPS again. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\06\02@165118 by Walter Banks

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Purolator currently has the Canadian Postoffice Courier contract. Around this
building Purolator is known as sooner or later. UPS is loaded with hidden
charges for services that they routinely don't have to do especially for trans
border shipments. FedEx reliably gets it there.

USPS might well be the safest way to ship occasional items.  For regular
business shipments the courier services can provide fast service.

w...

Herbert Graf wrote:

> FedEx has never really screwed up with me. Purolator is bad, but
> tolerable. UPS is HELL, I will NEVER use UPS again. TTYL


2005\06\02@172335 by David P Harris

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Herbert Graf wrote:

>I don't know about other Canadians, but I for one PREFER USPS/Canada
>Post
>
I totally agree, USPS is the way to go.

David


2005\06\02@231554 by Randy Glenn

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It's far worse than Purolator having the Canada Post contract - Canada
Post *owns them*, to the tune of 94%.

http://www.purolator.com/media/corporate/faq.html

On 6/2/05, Walter Banks <walterspamKILLspambytecraft.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\06\03@060911 by Howard Winter

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Randy,
On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:15:53 -0400, Randy Glenn wrote:

> It's far worse than Purolator having the Canada Post contract - Canada Post *owns them*, to the tune of 94%.

It's very strange seeing this name used for a delivery service - over here Purolator is a make of engine-oil
filter!  :-)

(Isn't it also a bit of a marketing goof in the delivery business to have a name ending in "later" ?  :-)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\06\03@070815 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Dave Schmidt wrote:

> Just got off the phone with Fedex.  Here's what I was told "Fedex
> invoices the customer for Duties and Taxes at a later date" - basically
> the recipient is sent a bill that they should pay, and in my case they
> didn't.

> I was told they do this for all international shipping (though I didn't
> get a warm fuzzy that the rep I spoke was well versed in Fedex Int'l
> policy)

In Brazil at least, Fedex doesn't deliver without collecting any
outstanding charges first.

Pretty sad story... ultimately it's the customer who doesn't pay who is the
problem, but Fedex sure doesn't seem to make it easier to deal with that
type of situation.

Gerhard

2005\06\03@082319 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Dave Schmidt wrote:

> You guys are probably tired of hearing my rant so this will be my last post.
> I just found this website talking about the same thing specifically to
> Canada.  Also talks about the 'brokerage' fee that Fedex and UPS charges.
>
> http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jsp?forum=12&thread=810033517

I think what the courier companies (most of them, at least) do with
international shipments is close to fraud. These courier companies have
enough data to be able to advise the customer very clearly (and rather
precisely) up front about what charges to expect (especially their own
charges), what customs clearance times to expect etc.

In my experience, they don't do that honestly. There was a time it took
them routinely two weeks to clear customs in Brazil -- not their fault, for
sure, but their fault to sell next day delivery to the unsuspecting
customer in another country.

I just went through the Fedex "Global Trade Manager - Estimate Duties and
Taxes" pages. For a shipment worth $100 from the US to Canada with an
estimated freight cost of $50, they come up with a final "Landed Cost
Estimate" of $157 ($100 goods + $50 freight + $7 GST). No word of $31
customs brokerage fees. I'm not sure what "landed cost" generally includes,
but I would think that shipment-related customs brokerage fees --
especially if they are known up front -- should be included.

These $31 also appear nowhere else when you look for information about how
much it costs to ship from US to Canada (at least I couldn't find them in a
reasonable time).

So I guess Fedex takes a good part of the blame for this situation.

Gerhard

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