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PICList Thread
'[OT] Propper TAGGING'
2005\08\08@030938 by Chen Xiao Fan

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Just my two cents. If there is no [OT], PIClist will be a
much better place and there will much less problems with
improper tag. The PICList server will be much faster as
well. People subscribe to the digest version will also be
much happier. People like to air their political opinions
can always go to other lists. Just do not contaminate the
PIClist.

By the way, I am not subscribing to [OT] but I read
gmane sometimes.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\08@063221 by Russell McMahon

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Xiao Fan - as you aren't subscribed to OT I'll copy this to you.
I agree with most of what you post, but on this occasion we differ
:-).

> Just my two cents. If there is no [OT], PIClist will be a
> much better place and there will much less problems with
> improper tag. The PICList server will be much faster as
> well. People subscribe to the digest version will also be
> much happier. People like to air their political opinions
> can always go to other lists. Just do not contaminate the
> PIClist.

A fond dream, but it's not how it would work (probably).

- About 1/3 of recent posts are OT.

- Posts that have attachments are almost invariably not OT so that
reduces the volume that OT occupies realtive to number.

- Many topics that are on OT are actually legitimate EE (eg 3 or 4 PWM
IC). If there was no OT then people would still post most of these and
get the tags right.

OT is not intended to be an avenue for regular political comment, and
it largely isn't (it has it's momemnts)  so this is a "straw man"

Overall removing OT would probably reduce volume by no more than 20%.

*AND*

OT is one of the things which makes PICList great. Unless OT posters
get grumpy and go on strike you can expect to find technical and / or
interesting information on many other topics which help make your life
more rounded. People who subsribe to OT usually  have more rounded
characters, get more out of life and are more liable to be voted most
popular classmate of the year :-).


> By the way, I am not subscribing to [OT]

No comment :-)


       RM

2005\08\08@071424 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell McMahon" <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [OT] Propper TAGGING


> OT is one of the things which makes PICList great. Unless OT posters get
> grumpy and go on strike you can expect to find technical and / or
> interesting information on many other topics which help make your life
> more rounded. People who subsribe to OT usually  have more rounded
> characters, get more out of life and are more liable to be voted most
> popular classmate of the year :-).

There is another dimension. Some of us subscribe to a pile of lists, but
there are quite a few who subscribe to only one.  For all of us, the PIClist
is a kind of community that we get to know.  Often, people want to share
things that have happened, or things that bother them, with their friends.
Loosing the [OT] tag would loose a lot of that sense of community.
Especially for those that don't spend half their life reading email, it
would make the PIClist a far less inviting place.  For those of us who have
many lists, it wouldn't matter so much.  But most of us probably aren't the
contributors that the folks with more "focus" are.  Many, I suspect, would
go find a more friendly forum.

--McD

2005\08\08@140322 by James Newton, Host

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On Behalf Of Chen Xiao Fan
> Just my two cents. If there is no [OT], PIClist will be a
> much better place and there will much less problems with
> improper tag. The PICList server will be much faster as well.
> People subscribe to the digest version will also be much
> happier. People like to air their political opinions can
> always go to other lists. Just do not contaminate the PIClist.
>
> By the way, I am not subscribing to [OT] but I read gmane sometimes.


You are using gmane to read the PICList and it shows ALL threads no matter
the topic tag...

Please consider using the PICList.com archive where you can turn off the
display of [OT] and it has many other features. It uses a frame to show the
threads in one side and the individual posts in the other so that it does
not reload the list of threads each time you view a post. It is very quick
and efficient. There is also a full search engine (which is not always fast,
but is VERY complete) and you can view by author, thread, time, subject,
reply to, etc... over a day, month or even year very quickly. It is a very
good interface and I am quite proud of it.
http://www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp

You will need to use your passcode to access it. You must supply your email
address to get a passcode. This means that anyone who can see the email
addresses of people in the archive will have to show their email address.
And if they spider for email addresses to spam, they will be fed addresses
that identify their address so I can report to spam cop (.com) not only the
source of the spam email, but also who ripped the emails, when, and where.
Not to mention that it has any number of spider traps in it so they aren't
going to get a batch of emails anyway.

Gmane has none of that, as far as I know. Put it this way, I used wget and
ripped about a 1000 emails in a few minutes. Gmane does have a thread view
that indents to show who was responding to who, which the piclist.com
archive does not do. I just list the thread in chronological order (which I
couldn't figure out how to get gmane to do). Gmane converts smiles to
pictures. :( I don't. It has a smoother interface for attachments, but it
doesn't seem to always show all attachments. It puts a picture of the flag
of the posters country in the upper right corner and of the users company or
domain if known. I don't do that... Bandwidth is precious. I do add little
text notes and "ads" (not paid) in the upper left corner. Gmane has a bug
with the highlighting and linking of URLs with "&" in them.. I (probably)
have bugs with 1000 other things.

The PICList.com archive doesn't supply news or rss feeds, although all the
data is ready for that. I have a java based news server that is ready to be
installed but I have not done it. One of these days I want to add the
ability for the archive to generate digests with topic tag filtering. I'd
also like to add the ability to collect feedback on posts (e.g. 1 to 5
"stars" for usefulness of the post) so that I can present the "best of the
PICList" some day.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



2005\08\09@083306 by Gerhard Fiedler

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James Newton, Host wrote:

> You are using gmane to read the PICList and it shows ALL threads no matter
> the topic tag...
...
> Gmane has none of that, as far as I know.

This is only partially correct. gmane.org is primarily a news server --
that's the main purpose of it. It also allows visitors to read its
archives, but that's a secondary purpose.

As a news server, it works together with a news reader. So whatever your
news reader can do with messages, that's what you can do using the
gmane.org news server.

Pretty much every halfway decent news reader can filter messages based on
text in the subject. I use gmane.org (as news server) and 40tude Dialog (as
news reader) to read the piclist, and this combo provides a better and
finer grained filtering than the list server subject tag filtering could
ever provide -- including filtering by subject tags (if I wanted to do so
-- but having so much better filtering capabilities at my fingertips, I
don't really care much about the tags other than that they provide an
initial quick information about the content of a thread when it appears
first).

For everybody who uses the filtering features of any decent news reader,
the mailing list tag feature is really not that important. It is important,
of course, for those who receive the piclist as emails and don't want to be
bothered with all the emails they don't want to receive.


> The PICList.com archive doesn't supply news or rss feeds,

Given that gmane.org is a perfectly working news server that carries the
piclist, I don't really see the point in spending any effort to create
another one. (Other than the pure joy of creating an
email-to-news-and-back-again gateway, or maybe an incurable infection with
NIH syndrome... :)

Gerhard

2005\08\10@023401 by Chen Xiao Fan

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Okay I agree with you on what you say and I will not
ask for the removal of OT tag again since it is a
large and important part of PIClist according to your
statistics. Just remember that "OT is not intended to
be an avenue for regular political comment". That is a
very important point. There is often no right or wrong
when politics and religion are involved.

"Quite some OTs are not really OT but legitimate EE."
I do sometime read OT using gmane and I know this.
Any decent news reader like Outlook Express or
Thunderbird are doing a good job of sorting list
posts when using gmane.

As James pointed out, PIClist.com is also a very good
place to read the archives.

I also think IT stuff should be able to be inside EE
(sorry to "contaminate" the EE tag, Russel) since EE
can be interpreted as "Everything Engineering".

Proper tagging is important but I think "[PIC] Re:
[OT]:Is C30 price set by Microchip???" is proper
tagging. Some people may have different opinions
though. I tend to sympathize with him as well since I
am using Outlook at work and it is really not a very
good tools when it comes to spam filtering and reading
posts.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\10@045104 by Russell McMahon

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> I also think IT stuff should be able to be inside EE
> (sorry to "contaminate" the EE tag, Russel) since EE
> can be interpreted as "Everything Engineering".

I agree with you :-).
And I think James intended usage does too.
We all win.
I'd like a [TECH] ([TECHO]?) tag but that seems to be too
hard/undesirable/?.
Best of all would be a [RUSL] tag and then nobody would have problems
with my posts :-)

> Proper tagging is important but I think "[PIC] Re:
> [OT]:Is C30 price set by Microchip???" is proper
> tagging.

I'm not sure how that *really* gets handled nowadays.
I can find posts that say how people THINK it gets handled, but they
often disagree with each other. Some say it goes to only one tag group
(the first?), some say it goes to all groups. If the latter then it's
an excellent way to transition between groups as long as subsequent
posters remove the old tag. Which they probably won't do.

Follow the "Widlar" threads and think about what hope we have of
getting tags right :-)


       RM

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