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'[OT] Price going up everywhere?'
2008\02\04@001713 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
This year I am "in charger of" buying the food items for Chinese New Year
and the price is going up by quite a bit. Singapore government is saying
that this is mainly due to the fact that a lot of food items here are from
China and Australia. Due to some unfavorable nature conditions the
import price from China/Australia have gone up. It is said that CPI
will get even higher after Chinese New Year.

And my mom told me the price in China goes up even higher than here.

That is for basic food items. Housing price in Singapore gets significant
higher in year 2007. The same for China.

How about other places?

Xiaofan

2008\02\04@003825 by Rolf

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> This year I am "in charger of" buying the food items for Chinese New Year
> and the price is going up by quite a bit. Singapore government is saying
> that this is mainly due to the fact that a lot of food items here are from
> China and Australia. Due to some unfavorable nature conditions the
> import price from China/Australia have gone up. It is said that CPI
> will get even higher after Chinese New Year.
>
> And my mom told me the price in China goes up even higher than here.
>
> That is for basic food items. Housing price in Singapore gets significant
> higher in year 2007. The same for China.
>
> How about other places?
>
> Xiaofan
>  
Houses are cheaper in the US... ;-)

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/real-estate-house-prices/U

Shows you Singapore....
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/real-estate-house-prices/S

Rolf

2008\02\04@014259 by Daniel Dourneau

flavicon
face
Same in France:
- petrol prices sky-rocketing,
- by products of milk and wheat going up very sharply

Only high tech products appear to be stable or on the decrease, bu you do not
buy a new TV every week....

Salaries .... flat.....

Selon Xiaofan Chen <spam_OUTxiaofancTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>:

>
> How about other places?
>
> Xiaofan
> -

2008\02\04@031940 by Picbits Sales

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face
Here in the UK I've noticed the same

Fuel prices are up to £1.05 for a litre of unleaded petrol ($2.15/L), a
packet of peas has shot up from £0.89 to £1.60, potatoes have gone from
£1.69 to £1.99 for a pack. Bread is up in price, flour suprisingly has
dropped a couple of pence.

On the plus side, beer seems reasonably stable pricewise at the moment.

The thing that really narks most of us off in the UK about the fuel prices
is that 70% of the fuel price goes to the government ..........


{Original Message removed}

2008\02\04@033654 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Picbits Sales wrote:

> Fuel prices are up to £1.05 for a litre of unleaded petrol ($2.15/L), a
> packet of peas has shot up from £0.89 to £1.60, potatoes have gone from
> £1.69 to £1.99 for a pack. Bread is up in price, flour suprisingly has
> dropped a couple of pence.

more or less the same as Italy...

> On the plus side, beer seems reasonably stable pricewise at the moment.

:) yeah or at least "more linear increase"

> The thing that really narks most of us off in the UK about the fuel prices
> is that 70% of the fuel price goes to the government ..........

same in here if not more...


--
Ciao, Dario

2008\02\04@041247 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> The thing that really narks most of us off in the UK about
> the fuel prices
> is that 70% of the fuel price goes to the government
> ..........

I don't see what the % is a major issue - as long as it's
not, say, 90%+.

It's WHAT the government does with the money it takes in
that is the most effective focus of ones angst. If you
effectively target as a nation what you want your
'representatives' to do and the manner and amount that they
take will track. If the tax take 'needed' is a certain
figure then effective action at increasing eg fuel taxes
will simply produce greater taxes elsewhere. It's reasonable
to assume that the government distributes its taxation
burden in a manner which optimises its popularity and its
prospects of remaining in power. They may not be very smart
but they are not at all stupid !!! :-).

If fuel tax was say halved - with consequent price reduction
by 35% and rise in use and impact on balance of payments and
all that goes with that, where would you like want them to
make up the lost revenue from? If your answer is 'I
wouldn't" then you are liable to be more effective targeting
that as a root problem rather than one already optimised
manifestation :-)


       Russell






2008\02\04@054858 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Apptech wrote:

> If fuel tax was say halved - with consequent price reduction by 35% and
> rise in use and impact on balance of payments and all that goes with
> that, where would you like want them to make up the lost revenue from?
> If your answer is 'I wouldn't" then you are liable to be more effective
> targeting that as a root problem rather than one already optimised
> manifestation :-)

Yup. Must suggestions of how to deal with "the problem" focus on reducing
the taxpayers' obligations; generally, few of them deal with reducing the
benefits derived from the obligations (or with increasing the efficiency of
using it).

On a side note, I would feel safer if governments were not allowed to take
out loans that cross election lines (that is, they would have to return the
entity with as much or less debt than they got it).

Gerhard

2008\02\04@065150 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> On a side note, I would feel safer if governments were not
> allowed to take
> out loans that cross election lines (that is, they would
> have to return the
> entity with as much or less debt than they got it).


Understood.

But on the other hand, one of the great limitations on
effective action for democratic multi-party government, is
the felt need to take actions with an eye mainly to the
short term effect on one's election chances. In NZ it's a 3
year cycle. In the US it is at best arguably 8 years for a 2
term president with a severe bump in the middle. Some don't
manage to negotiate it.

There is something to be said for single party
democratically elected assemblies where people and even sub
parties may be elected to a common party. I am very very
very well aware of the abominations that that can and
usually (always?) leads to when implemented in its purer
forms, but in principle it allows principled long term
action. One reasonably good example of this working
reasonably well is the UK multipartisan war cabinet form of
government in situations of national crisis eg WW2. Note
that eg Australia eschewed this approach and went with full
Westminster & fisticuffs right through.

Another argument that comes to mind is moving all
significant expenditure out into the private sector to allow
them to make long term decisions while government just
greases the skids. I just KNOW that someone would have
mentioned that if i didn't. That also seems to often
(always?)( ;-) ) lead to abominations when implemented in
its purer forms :-).

Any extremes of mankind, no matter how well intentioned (or
not) seem to lead to abominations.



       Russell






2008\02\04@065238 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>That is for basic food items. Housing price in Singapore
>gets significant higher in year 2007. The same for China.
>
>How about other places?

Yes it is happening everywhere. There are several reasons, but they all come
down to the cost of oil based products.

1. The price of oil based products used for transport is rising rapidly.

2. The rising cost of oil (see point 1) makes biofuels more attractive, and
causes the price of biofuels to rise, due to demand.

3. The rising cost of biofuel (see point 2) makes it attractive to grow
crops that can be used for biofuel, thereby reducing the land available for
growing edible crops, or existing edible crops suitable for biofuel are
diverted to biofuel use instead of food.

4. Reduction of food production due to less land available (see point 3)
causes cost of food crops to rise due to demand.

5. Transport costs of food crops rises (see point 1) causes food crop costs
to rise further.

6. Rising cost of food crops used to feed animals (see points 5 and 3)
causes the cost of animal products to rise.

hence all food products rise in price.

2008\02\04@065241 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Here in the UK I've noticed the same
>
>Fuel prices are up to £1.05 for a litre of unleaded petrol ($2.15/L),

                                                            ^^^^^^^
Should that be per imp gallon?


>a packet of peas has shot up from £0.89 to £1.60, potatoes have gone
>from £1.69 to £1.99 for a pack. Bread is up in price, flour suprisingly
>has dropped a couple of pence.

Haven't noticed the beer price, but a 2 pint bottle of milk at the
supermarket has gone from £0.60 something to around £0.76 ...

2008\02\04@070913 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> The thing that really narks most of us off in the UK about
>> the fuel prices
>> is that 70% of the fuel price goes to the government
>> ..........
>
>I don't see what the % is a major issue - as long as it's
>not, say, 90%+.

It is a very large issue in the UK, as trucks come from the continent where
the diesel price is much lower, fill their tanks just before getting on the
ferry to the UK, and then can drive almighty distances in the UK without
paying road tax, and with lower running costs compared to UK transport
operators.

It is putting a major squeeze on the UK operators, and the government
doesn't get any money to refurbish the roads from these operators. There are
periodically proposals to require foreign operators to have a "UK
operations" permit or something similar, to even up the costs, but nothing
ever comes of it.

2008\02\04@071506 by John Chung

picon face
Same in Malaysia. A big bowl of noodles cost RM $3.50
early last year. Now it cost RM $4.00. It depends on
the location you are at. I live in Selangor. Pricing
is just mad. Chinese tea used to be 30 cents now 50
cents......

John Chung


--- Xiaofan Chen <.....xiaofancKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\02\04@075232 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> That is for basic food items. Housing price in Singapore gets significant
> higher in year 2007. The same for China.
>
> How about other places?

As long as pretty much every macro-economic "progress" is measured by
increase of GNP (and micro-economic "progress" is measured by balance
sheets), there is of course a tendency of the basic measurement item (the
price) to rise. It's so to speak built into our current economic reality,
just as increasing public debt.

Gerhard

2008\02\04@095126 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>>I don't see what the % is a major issue - as long as it's
>>not, say, 90%+.

> It is a very large issue in the UK, as trucks come from
> the continent where
> the diesel price is much lower, fill their tanks just
> before getting on the
> ferry to the UK, and then can drive almighty distances in
> the UK without
> paying road tax, and with lower running costs compared to
> UK transport
> operators.

That's just poor governance at work.
All it needs to fix that is more bureacracy and form filling
:-)
Which would also show them furriners whos who :-).

ie charge them tax on a tank full of diesel when they set
wheel in the door.
Dip the standard tank if you must for content if they don't
arrive full.
Refund an amount based on amount in tank on departure if
you're feeling generous.

BUT

Here's an easy solution.

- Vehicles leaving the UK with essentially full tanks are
exempt any extra fuel taxes.

- Vehicles with more than X% below full are charged tax on a
full tank of fuel !!!

This works as follows.
If they came in full then they need to top up with UK fuel
amounting to what they have used in the UK.
If they came in eg half full they need to top up above what
they used i the UK and the UK wins.
If they don't topup in the UK they pay a tax on a whole tank
full.

You could modify this to cover measure-in. measure-out , but
why bother ? :-)

The end result would be that all trucks would arrive and
leave with full tanks.

> It is putting a major squeeze on the UK operators, and the
> government
> doesn't get any money to refurbish the roads from these
> operators. There are
> periodically proposals to require foreign operators to
> have a "UK
> operations" permit or something similar, to even up the
> costs, but nothing
> ever comes of it.

Easier.
Log odo in.
Log odo out.
Charge road tax on miles.
Effectively how we work here.
Some would cheat.
Confiscate the trucks when you catch a few (law change to
allow) and it would pretty largely stop. A big rig is worth
far more than the tax on a tank of diesel. Even at UK
prices.





       Russell

2008\02\04@151915 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Apptech wrote:

>> On a side note, I would feel safer if governments were not allowed to
>> take out loans that cross election lines (that is, they would have to
>> return the entity with as much or less debt than they got it).
>
> Understood.
>
> But on the other hand, one of the great limitations on effective action
> for democratic multi-party government, is the felt need to take actions
> with an eye mainly to the short term effect on one's election chances.

Exactly my point. Public debt is mainly accrued because of the eye on one's
election chances. Nobody likes to rise the taxes, so they rise the public
debt.

> Another argument that comes to mind is moving all significant expenditure
> out into the private sector to allow them to make long term decisions
> while government just greases the skids.

I'm not sure I made myself clear... I think of the government as some kind
of representation of The People. If The People want to spend some money for
something (say a war), They should be prepared to pay for it. So if the
government needs money for something The People think they want to do, it
should raise the funds from The People -- not by creating a public debt.
That way, every one of The People can decide how to pay for it: taking up a
loan, spending less, working more, gambling... whatever.

Gerhard

2008\02\04@180051 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> every one of The People can decide how to pay for it: taking up a
> loan, spending less, working more, gambling... whatever.
>
Alas, I think the politicians are doing a fine job of duplicating how  
"the people" would (and do) choose to pay for things.

BillW

2008\02\04@211650 by James Newton

face picon face
I've not been able to prove it, but I have this suspicion that more oil is
consumed in the production of food than people realize.  My bet is that it's
more than is consumed by the cars on the road.

Is gardening starting to look more attractive to anyone?

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2008\02\04@213230 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
On Feb 5, 2008 1:17 PM, James Newton <jamesnewtonspamKILLspammassmind.org> wrote:
>
> Is gardening starting to look more attractive to anyone?

Yeah but it's so much hard work. Can we automate it with PICs or something? :)

Cheers,
Zik

2008\02\04@215330 by James Newton

face picon face
Well... My electricity costs EXACTLY what it did 2 years ago... Not everyone
can say that, but I can. Hee, hee... fixed rate loan and solar panels.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/solar/case1.htm

Heating the house this winter has actually cost me less ($0 in fact) than
last year ($265), because this past summer, I got of my butt and collected a
lot more wood than I did the year before.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/woodstoves.htm

The cost of eggs, tangerines, grapefruit and snow peas (thanks to my boy
Remy) is close to zero. And a few servings of swiss chard (which I'm amazed
to find I really love steamed with salt and vinegar) came at close to zero
cost. But honestly, we don't grow anywhere NEAR enough food for ourselves.
It is, however, possible to grow more than half of all food for 4 people in
a 1/10 of an acre:
http://pathtofreedom.com/urbanhomestead/ataglance.shtml

Purchased food prices are way up. My wife does the accounting on that, so I
don't have figures handy, but its up there. Organic costs. And our co-op
fell apart (no one was willing to spend the time putting the orders
together) so we just shop at the store now.

BUT if we were smart about it, and worked a lot harder in the garden and
made only bulk purchase, we could probably hold that cost steady if not
decreasing it. If we followed my sons example and went vegetarian, we could
save even more.

My gas prices are way up: I now drive a larger, safer car with slightly
lower gas mileage and I do drive about 15,000 miles a year, which costs
~$1,500.00 plus about 300 hours of my time. Last year that was about $1,000
gas and the same time. And the payments for the new car are a bit less than
the van that we just finished paying off.

BUT if I could have found a small diesel car (illegal in California) and
installed a fuel tank heater, I could have been driving for free: There are
about 20 fast food restaurants within several blocks of my house.

Am I going somewhere with this? Err... Yes! Here it is:

Costs don't go up for people who are sustainable.

--
James.



{Original Message removed}

2008\02\04@215614 by Rich

picon face
You might be on to something here.  Many polymer products, bags, containers
of all kind, and a huge variety of products a made with some petroleum based
compounds. The auto industry seems to use quite a lot of polymer products.
I have never seen a study on it but it is an interesting point.


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton" <.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....massmind.org>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Price going up everywhere?


> I've not been able to prove it, but I have this suspicion that more oil is
> consumed in the production of food than people realize.  My bet is that
> it's
> more than is consumed by the cars on the road.
>
> Is gardening starting to look more attractive to anyone?
>
> --
> James.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\02\04@220733 by James Newton

face picon face
www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm

I'll pay for documentation of "home built" automated gardening systems.

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Zik Saleeba
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 18:32
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Price going up everywhere?

On Feb 5, 2008 1:17 PM, James Newton <KILLspamjamesnewtonKILLspamspammassmind.org> wrote:
>
> Is gardening starting to look more attractive to anyone?

Yeah but it's so much hard work. Can we automate it with PICs or something?
:)

Cheers,
Zik

2008\02\04@231552 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 5, 2008 11:08 AM, James Newton <RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspammassmind.org> wrote:
> http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm
>
> I'll pay for documentation of "home built" automated gardening systems.

Sorry but the following page highlights the problems with massmind.org
and piclist.com.
www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm

2008\02\04@234348 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
On Feb 5, 2008 2:08 PM, James Newton <spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamBeGonespammassmind.org> wrote:
> http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm

You're way ahead of me!

Cheers,
Zik

2008\02\05@041407 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I've not been able to prove it, but I have this suspicion that more
>oil is consumed in the production of food than people realize.
>My bet is that it's more than is consumed by the cars on the road.

Reminds me of a study that was done in NZ at the time of the oil crisis in
the 1970s, looking at usage of oil in sports. IIRC the study was initiated
by the University of Canterbury Car Club, to see just how much of the sports
consumption was by motor sport.

All forms of Motor Sport combined (cars, boats, motor cycles, do not know if
aeroplanes were included here) came 5th. The leading user, by several
lengths, was horse racing.

2008\02\05@062936 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

> On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
>> every one of The People can decide how to pay for it: taking up a
>> loan, spending less, working more, gambling... whatever.
>
> Alas, I think the politicians are doing a fine job of duplicating how  
> "the people" would (and do) choose to pay for things.

This detail also occurred to me while writing, but I chose to leave it out
for the sake of the argument :)

The problem is that there is no organization that helps out when the world
economy collapses, like there are for people who overextend their loan
payback capacity.

Gerhard

2008\02\05@141432 by James Newton

face picon face
If I knew what problem you were seeing, I could try to correct it.

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On Behalf Of
Xiaofan Chen
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 20:16
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Price going up everywhere?

On Feb 5, 2008 11:08 AM, James Newton <jamesnewtonEraseMEspam.....massmind.org> wrote:
> http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm
>
> I'll pay for documentation of "home built" automated gardening systems.

Sorry but the following page highlights the problems with massmind.org
and piclist.com.
www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm

2008\02\05@191648 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 6, 2008 3:15 AM, James Newton <EraseMEjamesnewtonspammassmind.org> wrote:
> > Sorry but the following page highlights the problems with massmind.org
> > and piclist.com.
> > http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/robogarden.htm
>
> If I knew what problem you were seeing, I could try to correct it.

Too much noise. The ads and the bottom part take too much spaces than the
real content. So the signal to noise ratio is too low.

2008\02\05@204614 by James Newton

face picon face
When I look at it, I see ads for drip watering systems and automatic
watering pots. How is that noise?

You are right, there isn't enough content on the page. I've scoured the net
and that is all I've been able to find. I would very much appreciate any
further content you can suggest.

This subject is important (I think) and it is a crying shame that more
people have not done something to automate the production of food for
non-industrial people.

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2008\02\06@044152 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Too much noise. The ads and the bottom part take too much spaces than the
> real content. So the signal to noise ratio is too low.

Hi both,
I was wondering to what Xiaofan was referring, and could not see; then,
later after this post, I saw the "noise" and the mis-paging of the site
(lot of white space and info well below). But I was using Netscape: as
soon as I moved to Explorer, it suddenly works pretty fine...
So there must be something in Styles and Browser issues...

--
Ciao, Dario

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