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'[OT] Perspectives on the Earthquake'
2004\12\28@110959 by Mike Hord

picon face
Just some numbers to put the energy level in perspective...

Current estimates are that the thrust fault involved in the
Sumatra 9.0 earthquake moved the entire edge of fault
up by 3-5 meters, along a 1000-km length of the plate.

The energy release was approximately equivalent to 70
days of wind energy from a category 5 hurricane (such
as Isabel).

Or, more than the entire US uses in a month, released
in a few seconds.

Or, enough to boil 30 trillion liters of water, or 5000
liters for each man, woman, and child on Earth.
Presumably, if that could be captured, it would allow
every person on Earth drinking water for quite a while.

Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.

Extrapolated from that information using Einstein's
famous equation, we arrive at 9x10^8 joules.

Give or take, that's 2100 Megatons.  For comparison,
Little Boy, which flattened much of Hiroshima, was a
13 kiloton yield bomb, requiring about 162,000 Little
Boys to match the earthquake.

While this is no doubt a significant, catastrophic
release of energy, it pales next to a 1-km asteroid
impact.  That would release about 10 million Megatons.

Mike H.

2004\12\28@162913 by Jinx

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> Just some numbers to put the energy level in perspective...

NZ was very nearly the curtain-raiser

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=3613035

Been quite a flurry of Pacific Rim quakes lately

===========================

A friend and I were watching "The Core" on Sunday night. A
story about the sudden stopping of the Earth's core by an earth-
quake machine (yeah, right) and how a disparate group of plucky
B-grade actors travel far below ground and restart it. Has all the
cheese and plot holes of Fantastic Voyage/Armagedon/Independence
Day. Total crap. Anyway, we looked around for mistakes in the
film (we'd lost count of those we spotted on our own)

http://www.moviemistakes.com/film3100

Last mistake on page 1 - "In the scene where the pigeons go
crazy, as the birds start flying through the glass if you play the
scene in slow-mo, you can see that one of the "pigeons" is
actually a trout"

It's true, but I reckon it's a mackerel. We went through the film
next day (and found other goofs, eg video camera falls level but
view is angled, DESTINI is spelled DESTINY every time, too
light in Marianas Trench, "On IT'S way" etc etc)

Still can't believe that someone actually threw a fish and tried to
pass it off as a pigeon. Maybe Fishy thinks it's Bobby de Niro

9 mins into film

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/flying_fish.html

2004\12\28@182852 by Jose Da Silva

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On Tuesday 28 December 2004 01:28 pm, Jinx wrote:
> > Just some numbers to put the energy level in perspective...

this shows a detailed map of the world in respect to earthquakes.
http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

2004\12\28@204433 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Dec 28, 2004, at 8:09 AM, Mike Hord wrote:

> Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.
>
> Extrapolated from that information using Einstein's
> famous equation, we arrive at 9x10^8 joules.
>
I think you have a units problem.  As I recall (and I found one web site
that had units on the equation that agrees), to get Joules, you want
mass
in kg, and C in m/s (3E8m/s).  100kg of mass would give you 9x10^18 J
in energy, which I think dwarfs even your big asteroid.

BillW

2004\12\28@224533 by Dave VanHorn

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At 08:44 PM 12/28/2004, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

>On Dec 28, 2004, at 8:09 AM, Mike Hord wrote:
>
>>Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.

This is why you hardly ever hear of a successful teleporter experiment.
Either out in orbit, or trying to cohabit space with a rock..

:)

2004\12\29@051028 by Russell McMahon

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> Current estimates are that the thrust fault involved in the
> Sumatra 9.0 earthquake moved the entire edge of fault
> up by 3-5 meters, along a 1000-km length of the plate.

To just lift a meter wide slice at the fault line would take

   l x h/2 x mass/metre x g   Joule

~= (1000 x 1000) x 2.5 x  5 x 9.8 = ~ 10^8 joules.
About what was suggested somewhere BUT
A whole lot more than a 1 metre slice was lifted that far.

> Or, enough to boil 30 trillion liters of water, or 5000
> liters for each man, woman, and child on Earth.

Latent heat vaporisation of water = 2.3 MJ/l
3E13 x 2.3E6 =~ 7E19 Joule

> Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.

More like 800 kg of matter conversion.
Quite a lot - enough to take a small star-probe to essentially light
speed.

E&OE as always.

       RM

2004\12\29@051828 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Jinx wrote:

>
>> Just some numbers to put the energy level in perspective...
>
> NZ was very nearly the curtain-raiser
>
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=3613035
>
> Been quite a flurry of Pacific Rim quakes lately

I wanted to ask about that one. Nobody felt anything ?

Peter

2004\12\29@052526 by Russell McMahon

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Here's a suggestion.
If you are in a position to read this message then you can afford it.

       *** Consider giving one days household income to the
       *** "Tsunami" relief fund  through an appropriate agency.

Here's where we see how people's political and religious positions
work in reality, and what they are actually worth in terms of
humanity.
(Or we don't actually "see" becauise it's done anonymously and without
compulsion.
Even the extreme right wing libertarians who believe that they must
not be compelled into any thing whatsoever (represented unashamedly
here by eg Mr JG) is able to contribute IF THEY WISH. There is no
compulsion, no knowledge, no people forcing or even knowing if they
have. Other's may make observations about the practicality or merit of
others 'belief systems' based on what they have done, but we don't
know what each has done.

The questions of course are
"Why 'should' we?".
What business is it of ours what is happening to other people?
Why should we be concerned about their misery and suffering? Or their
sucesses and triumphs?
I expect to provide for myself when disaster strikes through prudent
use of my resources - why should I feel in any way obliged to provide
for others who have not made similar provisions for themselves?

No amount of raving on on list will measure how valuable our ideas on
such matters are. How we answer those questions personally & privately
& by our actions will give us some idea of the fitness of our ideas
relative to those of others. If we let them.


       RM

Obvious question: Have I taken my own advice?
I'm not going to tell you and you can't make me :-)
It's a lot easier to be a hypocrite and rave on on list.
We may have no idea of what people "really" do and believe, regardless
of what they profess.

2004\12\29@052946 by Russell McMahon

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Substantial links and news page for those who can toletrate NYT's free
logon.

   http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/worldspecial4/index.html?th


       RM

2004\12\29@061330 by Bob Axtell

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Russell, I agree. My wife and I contributed yesterday.

BTW, privately people are saying that GPS fixes ARE showing that parts
of Sumatra moved 10s of meters (it was poo-poo'd by "experts" here at
first). Truly an awesome, once in a lifetime, event. Earthquakes in
California normally cause a movement of a few centimeters max.  

--Bob

Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\12\29@063323 by Dave King

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If you head to amazon.com web page they even have a link
setup to make it easy to donate. If you are so inclined...;]

Dave

{Original Message removed}

2004\12\29@070919 by Russell McMahon

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> BTW, privately people are saying that GPS fixes ARE showing that
> parts of Sumatra moved 10s of meters (it was poo-poo'd by "experts"
> here at first).

Sounds like a few tons of antimatter may have been needed.

> Truly an awesome, once in a lifetime, event. Earthquakes in
> California normally cause a movement of a few centimeters max.

Hopefully that's not wishful thinking. It's entirely conceivable that
there's more to come. Such a large "adjustment" obviously got rid of a
lot of tension BUT it will have created stresses elsewhere and also
reduced the energy needed to start a movement in other areas.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the value of open sea facing
coastal properties (or a drop in the rate of rise in value) in
countries where such  a location is discretionary or high status and
an exodus from such areas by at least some as they consider the
implications. The odds of it happening anywhere are small but that
won't stop some becoming nervous.

In NZ the whole country is ON an interplate boundary (in fact NZ IS an
interplate boundary :-) ) so we have less worry about Tsunami - they
mostly leave here bound for Oz and South America - but more worry
about the earthquakes that cause them.


       Russell McMahon


2004\12\29@085748 by Lawrence Lile

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I have just been grimly fascinated by the official death toll numbers, which have doubled every day this week.  

Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would like to sell a few thousand of?    

--Lawrence



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2004\12\29@094625 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.
> >
> > Extrapolated from that information using Einstein's
> > famous equation, we arrive at 9x10^8 joules.
> >
> I think you have a units problem.  As I recall (and I found one web site
> that had units on the equation that agrees), to get Joules, you want
> mass
> in kg, and C in m/s (3E8m/s).  100kg of mass would give you 9x10^18 J
> in energy, which I think dwarfs even your big asteroid.

Not a units problem, operator error.  My scratchpad on my desk has
10^18, I just missed hitting the "1" in there when typing.

The other calculations, for yield and such, are based on 9x10^18-J, so
at least according to my sources, the asteroid still wins.  Soberingly.

Mike H.

2004\12\29@112834 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:55:26 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...
> In NZ the whole country is ON an interplate boundary (in fact NZ IS an
> interplate boundary :-) ) so we have less worry about Tsunami - they
> mostly leave here bound for Oz and South America - but more worry
> about the earthquakes that cause them.

And I believe you have a few volcanoes around to worry about, should you feel inclined to!

All in all, I like living where I do in England, where the volcanoes fizzled out millions of years ago, any
earthquakes are tiny and very rare, and I'm 44 miles from the nearest sea (actually a river estuary).   Of
course we do have to put up with at least two feet of rain a year, the M25, and Her Majesty's Government...  
:-#

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2004\12\29@114532 by p.cousens

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I pledge double what the Pope personally gives
And 10% of what the head of your particular organisation gives!
Less expenses of course

 PC

> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\29@132314 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:52 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
> like to sell a few thousand of?

Could you do that?  Floating GPS receiver that detects unusual changes
(speed and magnitude) in altitude?  Could it transmit info fast enough
to do any good?  Is the change in altitude in deep sea areas even
that significant?  Or are you talking about a big but shallow swell
that only reaches significant height in shallow water?

BillW

2004\12\29@132947 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Dec 28, 2004, at 8:09 AM, Mike Hord wrote:

> Extrapolated from that information using Einstein's
> famous equation, we arrive at 9x10^8 joules.
>
> Give or take, that's 2100 Megatons.

www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/magnitude.html
says that a 9.0 Earthquake is about 32000 megatons, BTW...

BillW

2004\12\29@135916 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
> > like to sell a few thousand of?
>
> Could you do that?  Floating GPS receiver that detects unusual changes
> (speed and magnitude) in altitude?  Could it transmit info fast enough
> to do any good?  Is the change in altitude in deep sea areas even
> that significant?  Or are you talking about a big but shallow swell
> that only reaches significant height in shallow water?

As I understand, they are doing just that in the Pacific.  Some sort of buoy
that somehow detects the passage of the tsunami.

How, I do not know, but it isn't in place in the Indian Ocean because the
last significant tsunami in the Indian Ocean was caused by Krakatoa in
1883.  Millions or likely billions in capital investment and upkeep to
detect an event that occurs once in 120 years is tough to sell to politicos
in any nation.  Not only that, but with that degree of rarity of occurance,
it would be almost impossible to keep the populace informed as to how
to respond to this incredibly rarely used alarm.

As I understand it, a large number of those killed (in India and Sri Lanka,
at least, where there was no sign of the quake) were people who had
gathered to watch the sea recede.  Wikipedia claims that the recession
of the sea can occur some tens of minutes prior to arrival of the wave,
so even on foot, one stands a good chance of escaping a tsunami if one
were to hoof it inshore quite quickly after that initial portent.  In fact, an
alarm which sounds solely based on that may make an effective warning.

Mike H.

2004\12\29@142604 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > > Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
> > > like to sell a few thousand of?
> >
> > Could you do that?  Floating GPS receiver that detects unusual changes
> > (speed and magnitude) in altitude?  Could it transmit info fast enough
> > to do any good?  Is the change in altitude in deep sea areas even
> > that significant?  Or are you talking about a big but shallow swell
> > that only reaches significant height in shallow water?
>
> As I understand, they are doing just that in the Pacific.  Some sort of buoy
> that somehow detects the passage of the tsunami.

A re-reply to myself...

Apparently, the method used is pretty simple when you consider it.  A
device is settled on the ocean floor, which monitors for a sharp increase
in pressure, which indicates a significant prolonged increase in depth
consistent with the passage of a tsunami.  This data is passed
acoustically to a buoy on the surface, which uses a satellite link to the
monitoring center where an employee checks the data andpulls the panic
handle, if appropriate.

Total cost per detector is ~$250,000US- hardly a bank-breaker for any
first-world nation.  The monitoring system is no doubt more expensive,
what with staff and such required, and placement of the devices is
also likely not too cheap, but still certainly far less than the cost of
rebuilding the chaos now left behind, much less the horrible human
cost.

More info can be heard on the Dec 29 episode of Morning Edition,
linked through NPR.org, where you can also find links to charities
which will disburse money where it is needed.

Mike H.

2004\12\29@144238 by Hopkins

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I'm no expert here (or any where else :-))

Here is my 2 cents worth - all I can afford :-(

I should imagine the sensor is on the ocean floor and that it would
sense a prolonged pressure wave passing overhead, the idea been that a
whole section of ocean is on the move and would take some 10's of
seconds to pass.

This would require a few sensors positioned around an entire ocean - but
at great expense for the depth's involved.

The other idea of detecting the ocean retreating could also be used by
having a pressure sensor just outside the normal wave line; this would
then detect lose of pressure as the water is sucked out for 10's of
seconds.

This would require many cheaper sensors at every beach or headland.

Then you have ongoing maintenance costs for both options - replacing
batteries etc.

_______________________________________
Roy
Tauranga
New Zealand
_______________________________________

Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would like
to sell a few thousand of?    

--Lawrence



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2004\12\29@145904 by Mike Hord

picon face
> I'm no expert here (or any where else :-))
>
> Here is my 2 cents worth - all I can afford :-(
>
> I should imagine the sensor is on the ocean floor and that it would
> sense a prolonged pressure wave passing overhead, the idea been that a
> whole section of ocean is on the move and would take some 10's of
> seconds to pass.
>
> This would require a few sensors positioned around an entire ocean - but
> at great expense for the depth's involved.

See my other response; this is in fact what they are doing, but I thought
I'd mention one other thing that I forgot to say in the first message I sent.

Apparently, the "array" of sensors protecting the Pacific rim is, shockingly,
six devices.  Six, for the entire Pacific Ocean.  So the coverage is far from
complete.  I expect that after the scale of this tragedy, though, a lot of
Americans are going to have visions of that wave sweeping across all that
pricey California real estate and we'll see a concerted effort to expand the
sensor net.

Mike H.

2004\12\29@155622 by Jinx

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> I wanted to ask about that one. Nobody felt anything ?

Nothing significant with loss of life has occured on land for quite
some time. With the exception of Tangiwai (train wiped out on a
bridge) and Napier, injuries and damage have been light. One of
the biggest, if not the biggest, volcanic eruptions ever was Taupo
and that was pre local history

Ruapehu 1995 volcano, Edgecombe 1987 quake, Tangiwai 1953
lahar, Napier 1931 quake and the raising of Wellington harbour bed
in 1855 are the major events recently. You hear the odd report about
tin of dog food falling off a supermarket shelf or some man-on-the-
street interviews with their stories of the ground rolling for a few
seconds but that's about it. The next expected event will be a lahar
coming from Ruapehu's crater lake. This was the cause of the
Tangiwai event. Overall, more people are lost through accidents, the
weather and bad lifestyles to consider seismic activity a risk

The two really big ones yet to come are Rangitoto Island in Auckland
Harbour going bang and the ground opening up under Wellington. If
they happen, that'll make the news

2004\12\29@173739 by Russell McMahon

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> Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
> like to sell a few thousand of?

I've thought about that. May be harder than you think.
Needs to not false trigger on storms. MUST trigger on Tsunami. Needs
to phone hone reliably and cheaply.
etc


       RM

2004\12\29@173740 by Russell McMahon

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>> In NZ the whole country is ON an interplate boundary (in fact NZ IS
>> an
>> interplate boundary :-) ) so we have less worry about Tsunami -
>> they
>> mostly leave here bound for Oz and South America - but more worry
>> about the earthquakes that cause them.

> And I believe you have a few volcanoes around to worry about, should
> you feel inclined to!

The city of Auckland where I live is on a "hot spot" where volcanic
activity occurs. Not much in the way of heat at present in the city
proper BUT there are 100+ small volcanic cones around the city area.
Typically a few hundred feet high. Some bigger. The biggest
constitutes 60% of the total field. it is an island at the harbour
entrance. Named Rangitoto. It is the most recent volcano and is
believed to have occurred about 600 years ago. They have been getting
bigger and more frequent and on that basis we are probably overdue for
another one ;-). I live about 10 km off the edge of the hotspot so I
SHOULD be OK when the next one comes :-). Would do wonders for
property values in my area :-)


       RM

2004\12\29@194430 by James Newtons Massmind

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:SNORT:

<SARCASM>Please make out your contributions to the PayPal account of
.....JamesKILLspamspam@spam@massmind.org. I promise to use the money to take a fact finding trip
to the area (in a year or so) and stimulate the local economy by
contributing heavily to the local food and service industries.</SARCASM>
http://images.google.com/images?q=sumatra%20resort

Really though, how do you know any contribution is going to do any good? My
wife and I sometimes give money to
http://www.heifer.org and even there, I don't know if the contribution is
doing any real good. I always wonder how much ends up in someone's pocket
along the way to the people who actually need it. And even if it gets there,
will they use it wisely? Or just build in the same place, ready to get wiped
out by the next Tsunami.

It strikes me that it is better to spend your money helping those directly
in your own back yard or those you know well. We have a reserve corpsman
neighbor who was injured in Iraq and has been totally screwed over by
everyone since her return. Lost her regular job (actually on "unpaid leave"
until she can work again), dumped from active duty, the reserves are 3
months behind with her pay check (this is the US Navy reserve! They admit
she has the money coming, but they haven't gotten around to cutting the
checks! Unbelievable.) She is on the edge of loosing her house, had to wait
several months for reconstructive surgery for her injury, etc... Anyway, she
gets our support. We know she deserves it and we know she will actually get
the help. And we get to control what we help her with so she doesn't really
get to make stupid decisions with it.

I also spend a lot of time documenting how to be self-sufficient to some
degree and putting it up on the web. Grow your own food and like that. I
hope to find help in transmitting the information to people who need it:
Translation to native languages, getting feedback and questions, providing
advice, etc... There are other people who have done this and I hope to help.

I also have helped a few people from third world countries who have been
fortunate enough to have an education and be brilliant to get jobs here in
the USA. Screw lazy workers, US or other, I want the pick of the litter from
other places here working beside me. Green card workers actually work and
are great full for it. And there are a few more at least in part because I
helped.

There are groups who just collect old bicycles and ship them to poor
countries. At least you know they aren't pocketing the cash...

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\30@000715 by Russell McMahon

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> <SARCASM>Please make out your contributions to the PayPal account of
> JamesspamKILLspammassmind.org. I promise to use the money to take a fact
> finding trip
> to the area (in a year or so) and stimulate the local economy by
> contributing heavily to the local food and service
> industries.</SARCASM>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=sumatra%20resort
>
> Really though, how do you know any contribution is going to do any
> good?

Choose a reputable organisation with a track record.
Choose one with an ethos that you are comfortable with.

As an example only of ones which *MIGHT* fit the bill for some people
consider Red Cross, TEAR, Oxfam. There are quite a few more.

Oxfam's website have comments about

- what they have already done
- what they are in the process of doing
- what they are going to do.

The evening news last night (or was it night before) showed aid being
loaded into an aircraft by a forklift. The palleted bundles were all
marked with Oxfam logos and Oxfam was mentioned. COULD be library
film - wasn't the impression given (rightly or wrongly).

> ... Heifer [good idea] ... And even if it gets there,
> will they use it wisely?

Oxfam (again) were talking water tanks (already supplied 60 x 1000
litre), plastic sheeting for emergency shelter, water purification
equipment, emergency medical packs etc. No matter what happens long
term this is vital in the short term for living, and dying people.

>  Or just build in the same place, ready to get wiped
> out by the next Tsunami.

That may sound more cynical than intended.
Recall that tsunami are VERY rare in the Indian Ocean, that many of
the peple involved have no ready alternative of where to go. The
Maldives are 1m mean height asl. Much of Bangladesh is not a lot
better. People who live off the ocean live on the ocean unless they
are ricj enough to afford it. And I imagine they'll rebuild thr
tourist accomodation at Phuket.

Do recall that this COULD have been either US seaboard, or UK &
Europe or ....
It just happened to be nearest to the 3rd world poor this time around.

> It strikes me that it is better to spend your money helping those
> directly
> in your own back yard or those you know well. We have a reserve
> corpsman
> neighbor who was injured in Iraq ...

That's fine enough as long as people who say that do that. I know you
do. One can always choose to do both :-) (and I know you do ...).


       Russell McMahon



       Russell McMahon

2004\12\30@013804 by Russell McMahon

face
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2nd bite

> :SNORT:

And snort right back at you :-)

> Really though, how do you know any contribution is going to do any
> good?

Just watched the longish evening TV news.
Aid is being distibuted, as you'd expect, but never enough in
situations like this.
Villages "that didn't suffer much damage" according to official stats
have many houses totally gone and large percentages of their
populations dead. But the worst hit ones are much worse and the aid
programs aren't starting to touch what most of us would count as total
disaster zones.

More shots of cargo aircraft loading (not the same as yesterday).
Purported to be current.
Oxfam logo on all the pallets. Again.
Seems to be a pattern emerging here (2 out of 2 isn't much but ...).
I looked hard to see if I could identify any other sources but
couldn't.

US have said that the $US50 million they have offered so far is just a
start.
World giving is about $300 M so far. Far more is needed. Insurance
only goes so far. Insurance is just a way of spreading the cost of
necessary intermittent expenses across wide time periods. Most years
you give a little and receive nothing back. Occasionally, when you
need it, you get lots back. It's just as valid to do the giving
retrospectively. Think of it as targeted insurance in action.

I liked the airdrops being done by the US military. Load was many many
many of what looked like cardboard boxes. Perhpas 300 mm - 400 mm on a
side. They came in lowwwwww over a clearly ravaged area and started
shovelling these out the back as fast as they could. Fell tumbling
nicely - would have been slowed substantially. Depends on mass of
course but I imagine (hope?) that these had been engineered to land
usefully.

Long ago my uncle used to air drop grain aid in Africa from a
Hercules. Sacks often enough break open on impact. Place this in
another sack and they usually survive unbroken. Place this in a 3rd
sack and they effectively never break on impact. Triple bags it was.

BUT -

> It strikes me that it is better to spend your money helping those
> directly
> in your own back yard or those you know well.

The reason for my replying again is this.
IF there are blood covered people in your backyard with broken limbs
and/or lacerations, people wading through water intermingled with
sewage and miscellaneous body parts, children who have been sitting in
your yard for the last 2 days covered in blood and mutilated in ways
that would make you weep if they were your children, people in your
yard whose house looks like yours would look after a D8 had run over
it several times and then scraped the site half clean for good
measure, people who don't know where their children are or, if they
are lucky, do know where their children are because they are carrying
their bodies, then by all means, get off the net right now and go and
attend to them.

If, however, there are few or none of these people in your back yard
then please, as well as whatever useful things you do, be they ever so
many,  see if you can add a days household income to assist those who
very very closely resemble the above. And be thankful that it wasn't
your backyard that it happened in.


       RM





2004\12\30@131427 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I have just been grimly fascinated by the official death toll numbers,
> which have doubled every day this week.
>
> Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
> like to sell a few thousand of?

How would you moor it in place ? You don't need a sensor you need to get
the people there to implement a warning system as they already have in
Japan. The quake was so strong it could have been triangulated using
bowling pins set in sand at 2-3 locations far enough from each other,
and they had almost five hours time to do something about it. It was no
for lack of sensors they didn't do anything. This was a very costly
lesson to learn imho.

Peter

2004\12\30@131429 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Mike Hord wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I don't think that you need more sensors.

Peter

2004\12\30@131434 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:52 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
>> Anybody make a cheap, PIC based floating Tsunami sensor they would
>> like to sell a few thousand of?
>
> Could you do that?  Floating GPS receiver that detects unusual changes
> (speed and magnitude) in altitude?  Could it transmit info fast enough
> to do any good?  Is the change in altitude in deep sea areas even
> that significant?  Or are you talking about a big but shallow swell
> that only reaches significant height in shallow water?

The quake is sensed on shore a long *long* time before the wave comes
(five hours in this case). There is no need to get wet, just run a set
of seismo stations some distance apart and triangulate. From
triangulation and intensity of the grund wave the magnitude of the seism
can be calculated, and from this its potential for tsunami, and *when*
it is due. Normally the ground wave travels at 1000-2000+m/sec and the
water wave is 20 times slower (figures from memory, depend on soil type
etc - check). Depending on the exact direction of the quake there may be
no tsunami. There were several false alarms about this in the area,
which lead to partial evacuations, thus a system like this is in place.

Peter

2004\12\30@134129 by John Ferrell

face picon face
You shocked me James. You are usually such a positive fellow!

You are at least partially right on all counts. It sounds to me like you
have a near to home case that requires your focus at this time. Hang in
there, your local cause should come first!

The NYC terrorist attack seems to have been a financial windfall for may of
the families of the victims. And at the same time many other charitable
needs were starved for funds. Cases are still in the courts as I understand
it as to whether or not some got their fair share of the available
compensation.

We send work teams to other cities for the Habitat projects. I expect they
meet and pass other teams coming to our city to do the same thing. Is that
bad or good? I don't know. But at least something is happening for someone!

My Church District/Conference (United Methodist Church) sends building teams
to Armenia on building projects. The folks we intend to help are not
Methodists but they are Christians. It is not the most efficient operation
in the world to send unskilled labor to an area where skilled labor is
cheap. But the unskilled pay their own way and get work accomplished.
Otherwise unachievable objectives are met! Lets not discuss the bribes
necessary to get supplies through their customs!

It is likely that most of these Tsunami victims are not Christians. That
will have no effect on me or my church family. They are simply folks in
serious trouble through no fault of their own. An unknown amount of our
efforts will be stolen or otherwise misused. We have no choice but to accept
that. It is the cost of getting a little help to a few souls in need. There
is no way we can solve the problem or maybe even make a noticeable
difference. We must do it because it is the right thing to do.

I expect we will have a few extra "bean dinners" at Church as fund raisers
in the next few weeks to raise a little extra cash for those folks. It
usually works out somewhere between $5 & $10 per person for dinner because
we just put a contribution plate at the head of the serving line.

As my Aunt used to tell me "There but for the Grace of God goes me".

PS: Be careful about making promises to match Russell's leadership in any
endeavor. He is one of those Baptist fellows. I don't always agree with them
but I always respect them. When it comes to pursuing good deeds they can be
hard to keep up with!

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newtons Massmind" <.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....massmind.org>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Perspectives on the Earthquake


{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\30@135244 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
> > It strikes me that it is better to spend your money helping those
> > directly in your own back yard or those you know well.
>
> The reason for my replying again is this.
> IF there are blood covered people in your backyard with
> broken limbs and/or lacerations, people wading through water
> intermingled with sewage and miscellaneous body parts,
> children who have been sitting in your yard for the last 2
> days covered in blood and mutilated in ways that would make
> you weep if they were your children, people in your yard
> whose house looks like yours would look after a D8 had run
> over it several times and then scraped the site half clean
> for good measure, people who don't know where their children
> are or, if they are lucky, do know where their children are
> because they are carrying their bodies, then by all means,
> get off the net right now and go and attend to them.

<SNIP>

When the fire came a mile or so from my house, and there were injured
firefighters at the local red cross station, we donated what we could to
help. If you give now, to people many miles away, who may or may not see any
benefit from it, you do not have that to give when the disaster is closer to
home.

Actually, donating to the Red Cross is probably the best option at this
point. They will use it where it needs to be used in the future. Possibly
including next door, or xxx forbid, at your door.

P.S. A good education in charity can be had by looking up the founder of the
Red Cross and examining the beliefs SHE held.

---
James.



2004\12\30@151407 by Aza D. Oberman

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face
<James Newtons Massmind observers in part>

> Really though, how do you know any contribution is going to do any good?

Sad, but good, point.  A very large part of the activities of the World Bank
and International Monetary Fund is checking to see if the money from donor
countries is being used where the borrower said it would be used.  And these
large outfits get scammed from time to time.

Those of us whose dominion doesn't consist of much more than a PIC burner
have no real way to check up on our donations.  Remember the scams that
followed the World Trade Center disaster?

You might consider donations to outfits with good reputations (and which
don't own private jets for the comfort of their directors or hide behind
fuzzy incorporation papers).  If you're comfortable with the religious or
political agenda you might consider established non-profits like Lutheran
World Relief (http://www.lwr.org/), Friends Service Committee
(http://www.afsc.org/ ) and  UNICEF (http://www.unicefusa.org/).

There are some watchdog groups too:
http://www.disastercenter.com/agency.htm

Has anyone found a credible Islamic relief organization?  Given the current
position of the US government it's a chance to send two messages if you're
so inclined.

Aza D. Oberman

2004\12\30@192901 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
There is a series of before and after photos taken by satellites at this
site:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html

In particular, these two are indicative of the size of the calamity:

Before:
www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/banda_aceh_cityzoom_june23_2004_dg.jpg
After:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/banda_aceh_cityzoom_dec28_2004_dg.jpg

Notice the scale - there is what looks like a 400 meter track in the
center bottom of the photos.  If it is a 400 meter track then the width
of the photo is *roughly* 3 miles.  The ocean is no where in sight.  The
 after photo shows mud and ruin throughout.

If the tsunami alarm sounds, how long does it take to get to higher
ground when there is no higher ground?
MD



2004\12\30@212840 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:41 AM, John Ferrell wrote:

> The NYC terrorist attack seems to have been a financial windfall
> for may of the families of the victims.

Heh.  I'm glad someone else said it first.  I was going to use that
as an example as an "ambiguous" case of charitable spending.  Seems
lots of dollars were collected for people who were mostly well paid,
well insured, and ended up being well compensated from non-charity
sources, not even including lawsuits of questionable merit.  It almost
seemed like the main benefit of charitable efforts was that it cut
through red tape and got help where it was needed more quickly than the
other sources, which is of somewhat dubious merit, IMO.

In this case, I would hope national efforts by the US (funded by my
tax dollars), grouped under "foreign aid" or "foreign policy" would
dwarf individual contributions.  But perhaps we're too busy with other
"disasters" not so far away from there.  (So I hear we're sending an
Aircraft carrier to the region.  It'll take a couple months to get
there.  Don't we already have some ACs a lot closer than San Diego
that aren't really doing much at the moment?)

Still, I think I sent something via the red cross then, and I've done
so again now.

BillW

2004\12\31@080900 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newton, Host wrote:

> P.S. A good education in charity can be had by looking up the founder of the
> Red Cross and examining the beliefs SHE held.

Just for the record... You seem to be talking about Clara Barton, the
founder of the /American/ Red Cross. The founder of the Red Cross is
generally considered to be Henry Dunant -- he founded it in Switzerland in
1863. The American Red Cross was founded in 1881, inspired by the Swiss Red
Cross.

Gerhard

2004\12\31@154008 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> The NYC terrorist attack seems to have been a financial windfall
>> for may of the families of the victims.

> Heh.  I'm glad someone else said it first.  I was going to use that
> as an example as an "ambiguous" case of charitable spending.  Seems
> lots of dollars were collected for people who were mostly well paid,
> well insured, and ended up being well compensated from non-charity
> sources, ...

There will always be inequities.
In the case of the earthquake SOME people may end up gaining far more
than they need or deserve. There will be freeloaders who have no need
at all who will be taking all they can get. Human nature at its best
:-(.

BUT at present there are people (children and adults) who have sat for
2 or 3 days untreated in the admitting area of hospitals and whose
wounds are turning gangrenous. There are more important cases to
attend to. But gangrene is liable to be a death penalty.

There are people with water to spare - and all of it intermingled with
salt and sewage. It's action NOW that is gouing to be critical.
Estimates are that the death toll could double due to second order
effects such as disease. While the figure is obviously giesswork, it
is based on what has actually happened elsewhere, where Cholera or
Dyssentry got a good foothold.

Quite incidentally - this is a chance for the US to strut its stuff to
the world. No extended fact finding tours are needed to met the
imminent need. Long term sure, but until people just stop dying in
droves, bring it on.

> In this case, I would hope national efforts by the US (funded by my
> tax dollars), grouped under "foreign aid" or "foreign policy" would
> dwarf individual contributions.

So far I believe the US contribution is about 10% of the total from
all sources - but that figure will change by the day.

> Still, I think I sent something via the red cross then, and I've
> done
> so again now.

Liable to be one of the better choices.


       RM





'[OT] Perspectives on the Earthquake'
2005\01\01@072019 by Peter L. Peres
picon face

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004, Marcel Duchamp wrote:

> There is a series of before and after photos taken by satellites at this
> site:
> http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html
>
> In particular, these two are indicative of the size of the calamity:
>
> Before:
> www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/banda_aceh_cityzoom_june23_2004_dg.jpg
> After:
> http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/banda_aceh_cityzoom_dec28_2004_dg.jpg
>
> Notice the scale - there is what looks like a 400 meter track in the center
> bottom of the photos.  If it is a 400 meter track then the width of the photo
> is *roughly* 3 miles.  The ocean is no where in sight.  The  after photo
> shows mud and ruin throughout.
>
> If the tsunami alarm sounds, how long does it take to get to higher ground
> when there is no higher ground?
> MD

Get in a boat and head for deep water. The wave is 'survivable' in deep
water because if will not yet break so whatever ship (raft etc) you will
be riding will likely go over the top.

There were several reports from divers who were diving at the time the
tsunami struck. They noticed violent currents that banged them around
and mud in the water but found out what it was about only when they
surfaced. Their dive boat was in one piece but the shoreline was not.
The captain wisely kept out at sea until evening, so the following waves
did not smash his boat.

Peter

2005\01\02@100352 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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Aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln arrisves and its helicopter start
dawn to dusk aid shuttle from airport to needy areas.
Helicopters are managing 25,000 lb of freight/day or a small fraction
of a pound per person in the area per day . Still extremely valuable
of course.

       http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/02/international/worldspecial4/02quake.html?th=&oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=

US aid now a respectable $US350 M.
Japan increases its aid to $US500 milllion - THEY know from bitter
experience what it's like to live on a tectonic plate edge.
Total world aid now 2 billionish from 40 countries.
Deaths estimated 150,000ish - will be higher.
Serious injuroes est 500,000.
Homeless survivors est 5 million - so that's about $US400 aid per each
pledged so far. Considering the need is to feed them initially,
prevent disease, provide shelter and then try to rebuild communities
that have been bulldozed flat, that's far from excessive.


       RM

2005\01\02@232736 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Someone suggesting a possible link between "sound bombing" for oil,
whale beachings and earthquake triggers.

   http://onlinejournal.com/Commentary/123104Limburg/123104limburg.html

The whale / oil search link sounds plausible. We also had two major
and relatively unusual whale strandings in the same general area
during the period he mentions.

The link between "sound bombing" and earthquake triggers sounds
unlikely, but is certainly not something that should be dismissed
lightly. EEven given the unbelievably high acoustic levels he claims
(200 dB! ????), the energy involved is minute compared to other
available energy sources. It is conceicvable  that the sound
properties, which are tailored for deep penetration, also maximise
energy transfer compared to other sources. Sounds very unlikely, but
...

Another interesting possibility that occurred to me is the possibility
of a link between whale beachings and earthquake precursors.  Again,
unlikel;y but possible.


       RM

2005\01\02@235136 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Ah, something I know about. As a young Texas engineer, I managed to
spend a month on one of
these oil exploration boats to determine a problem in my employers'
equipment (problem was high
humidity. Always worked back at the plant.).

The "sound bombings" are violent but pretty localized. The way it works
is that a boat pulls a streamer
of seismophones several meters below the sea surface. Every  minute, a
detonation occurs behind the
boat with one of these "guns", which releases a large bubble of
highly-compressed air. This bubble is
released at about 2000PSI and it does shake things, and kills fish close
to it (In fact the 3-stage
air compressor used to supply the bubble at such high pressures is made
for submarines).

The bursting bubble causes a pressure wave to strike the bottom rock,
and the rock "rings" dependent
on the density of the subsurface rock. Oil companies are looking for
places in underground rock which
might trap oil deposits, such as domes.

I don't believe there is enough energy in one of these to trigger
anything worse than a headache.

--Bob

Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: Attachments must be sent to
@spam@attachKILLspamspamengineer.cotse.net, and
MAY delay replies to this message.
       520-219-2363

2005\01\03@002509 by Dave VanHorn

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face
At 11:25 PM 1/2/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:

>Someone suggesting a possible link between "sound bombing" for oil, whale
>beachings and earthquake triggers.
>
>    http://onlinejournal.com/Commentary/123104Limburg/123104limburg.html
>
>The whale / oil search link sounds plausible. We also had two major and
>relatively unusual whale strandings in the same general area during the
>period he mentions.
>
>The link between "sound bombing" and earthquake triggers sounds unlikely,
>but is certainly not something that should be dismissed lightly. EEven
>given the unbelievably high acoustic levels he claims (200 dB! ????), the
>energy involved is minute compared to other available energy sources.

I think that's actually beyond the maximum level that sound can achieve,
but it may be that in water, at depth, you can go higher.

Also, the energy is truly miniscule on a geologic scale. Like a flea fart
at a rock concert.


2005\01\03@011217 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>>Someone suggesting a possible link between "sound bombing" for oil,
>>whale beachings and earthquake triggers.
>>
>>
>> http://onlinejournal.com/Commentary/123104Limburg/123104limburg.html

> Also, the energy is truly miniscule on a geologic scale. Like a flea
> fart at a rock concert.

Or a Lorentz butterfly wing flap over the Azores ? :-)



       RM

2005\01\03@053439 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Aid starting to get where it's needed, but still some gaps/

       http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/03/international/worldspecial4/03quake.html?th=&oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=

US ship & helicopter combinations doing a good job. (Bypass the
middleman - always a good thing where aid is concerned. Material is
flown directly from airport to distribution point.)

Deaths to homeless ratio appears to be about 1:20 - varies with area
of course.
5 million homeless estimated overall.
In many areas in Indonesia there is now enough food, with water
treatment facilities the urgent need.
In other areas, about 1 week on,  no aid at all has been received so
far. eg 300,000 odd affected people in Andoman and Nicobar islands
have had no help at all.

It's interesting here to see signs in shop windows advising that aid
gifts could be left there (maybe friends of James' ? :-) ) -  and I
was approached today in a shopping mall by collectors from, no great
surprise, Oxfam.

For those who wondered about the serivation of the name (as I did),
the "Oxford Committee for Famine Relief" - subsequently Oxfam - was
founded in England during WW2 in October 1942 to provide aid for
civilians and refugees in Greece when the country was overrun by the
Nazis.



       RM




2005\01\04@025908 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Bob Axtell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Otoh there are situations where one detonates in excess of 4 tons of HE
in a pit or at the bottom of a lake or body of water to get some deeper
seismo readings.

Peter

2005\01\04@025909 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Dave VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

You need to think in terms of energy density. The energy density in the
recent earthquake was relatively low per length unit. It's the size of
the events that makes them bad (150km of rock rised by 5-10 meters is a
real lot of energy even disregarding the amount consumed by breaking the
rock and heating). For example the wind speed and force per unit area in
a hurricane is a small fraction of that occuring in your cheap vacuum
cleaner's turbine. Human-made devices are relatively good at exceeding
the energy density of natural systems by orders of magnitude. But they
are not large enough to compete in the big picture. So imho do not
disregard the potential of small conventional explosions in a
geophysical context. If applied at the right place and time they could
lead to big results.

I think that there may be a way to look at the strain in plates using
the same methods used to look for strain in transparent bodies used in
mech. engineering f.ex. (laser / monochromatic imaging. strain produces
polarisation). If one would be able to generate a coherent seismic wave
(line of explosives triggered simultaneously ?) and look at the
reflected or transmitted wavefront using a 2d array of geophones then
the strain could be read from the received data, after suitable
processing. Strain wrt. rock strength could be a good predictor for
earthquake potential, especially change of strain in the same place over
time.

Peter

2005\01\04@033741 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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> I think that there may be a way to look at the strain in plates
> using the same methods used to look for strain in transparent bodies
> used in mech. engineering f.ex. (laser / monochromatic imaging.
> strain produces polarisation). If one would be able to generate a
> coherent seismic wave (line of explosives triggered simultaneously
> ?) and look at the reflected or transmitted wavefront using a 2d
> array of geophones then the strain could be read from the received
> data, after suitable processing. Strain wrt. rock strength could be
> a good predictor for earthquake potential, especially change of
> strain in the same place over time.

Should be worth a Nobel prize if you [ we :-) ]can get it to work :-).

       RM



2005\01\04@095821 by Martin Klingensmith

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face
William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Dec 28, 2004, at 8:09 AM, Mike Hord wrote:
>
>> Or, 100 kg of mass, directly converted into energy.
>>
>> Extrapolated from that information using Einstein's
>> famous equation, we arrive at 9x10^8 joules.
>>
> I think you have a units problem.  As I recall (and I found one web site
> that had units on the equation that agrees), to get Joules, you want mass
> in kg, and C in m/s (3E8m/s).  100kg of mass would give you 9x10^18 J
> in energy, which I think dwarfs even your big asteroid.
>
> BillW

Yep..
I checked it on google with the thought that I wouldn't be surprised if it knew how to convert kg to J:
"100kg in joules"
*100 kilograms = 8.98755179 × 10^18 Joules

--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/

2005\01\04@182239 by Russell McMahon

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Numerous stunning 'before and after' photos
Well worth a look.

This is a link from Peter Peres under a different subject line..

   <http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html>

They provide a number of before and after aerial views which clearly
show that the Tsunami was far more than just a wave coming and going
and leaving things much as before. Not only are many or most building
destroyed but whole sections of coastline are missing, bays are
reshaped, low lying fields have been left flooded, bridges, roads and
geographical features have vanished.


       RM

2005\01\04@183934 by Russell McMahon

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Two PDF files (both under 1 MB) containing annotated photos showing
damage in Banda Aceh and Sri Lanka.
Same source as Peter Peres link.
Allows rapid comparison of before and after with notes.

"QuickBird" satellite photos

   http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/Banda_Aceh_Tsunami_Damage.pdf


       http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/tsunami/Sri_Lanka_Tsunami_Damage.pdf


Detail is entirely appropriate to this application but photo quality
is "unpleasing" to the eye compared to normal aerial shots. When you
consider how far away they were taken from they are superb.

Satellite sourced photos to order http://www.digitalglobe.com/


2005\01\04@201053 by Alex Harford

face picon face
This interesting link came through my RSS aggregator today:
<http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_buddhist-tsunami20050104&ref=rss>

Quote "A Vietnamese Buddhist group in Burnaby plans to raise $500,000
for the tsunami relief effort through the sale of its temple in the
Fraser Valley."

2005\01\05@070253 by Russell McMahon

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As people have been expressing concern about American Red Cross,
here's some comments. Sounds positive-ish.

As some refuse to access NYT sites I've extracted some content below.

       http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/international/worldspecial4/05relief.html?th


       RM
_____________________________

Amid the rush of generous donations to the disaster relief effort in
southern Asia, more donors have insisted that their gifts go
exclusively to help those victims, charities say, building on a trend
seen after the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
"People are very emotional, and they want their money to help the
people that they see in pictures and on TV," said Thomas Tighe,
president and chief executive of Direct Relief International, which
distributes free medicine, supplies and equipment in an effort to
improve health care around the world. "They make it clear that this is
not about tragedies that exist elsewhere in the world, and they're
very skeptical about how charities use their money."

Charities have long prized the "unrestricted" gift, which allows the
organization to spend it as it chooses. But ever since donors learned
that the American Red Cross planned to set aside for other uses more
than $200 million donated for families of the victims of the Sept. 11
attacks, they have increasingly insisted on earmarking or restricting
their gifts.
...
Devorah Goldburg, a spokeswoman for the Red Cross, said that since
Dec. 26, when the organization saw a huge surge in donations, it has
decided that all gifts to its International Response Fund will be
spent for tsunami relief efforts. "So much money poured in that we
knew it had to be intended for these victims," she said. "Also, when a
lot of people donate, they write 'tsunami relief' or something like
that on their checks."

Although the Red Cross has not been actively seeking donations, many
companies are steering donors toward the group, and it has received
pledges for $92 million. It has already allocated $25 million of that
to buy food and $5 million to buy hygiene kits, tents and other
supplies.
Ms. Goldburg said the rest would also go to this relief effort but
that some of the money might be reserved for longer-term needs, like
mental health counseling. She said no decision had been made on when
the Red Cross would again distribute donations to its International
Response Fund to other crises.
...

2005\01\05@162500 by Russell McMahon

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Stunning before and after Ikonos satellite photos of Lhoknga village
in Aceh province.

       http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=14963

Most of the vegetaion, fields, trees and roads are gone to a distance
of hundreds of metres inland.
Inland fields remain flooded 3 days after the quake.
Wave height here is thought to possibly have reached 50 feet.

Running inland with 10 minutes warning here MAY have helped, but quite
possibly not.
Climbing the high ground to the left of the photo definitely would
have.

       RM

2005\01\13@190404 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Comment on effectiveness or otherwise of aid efforts so far in
Indonesia.
Dated Jan 6th so probably older.

       http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0105/jkelly010605.php3?printer_friendly

Has good things to say about USA, Australia, New Zealand (so I can
post it here :-)  )

Not so kind things to say about others.
Very unkind to UN.

No guarantees of accuracy of course.


       RM



2005\01\13@194110 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:03:20 +1300, Russell McMahon
<KILLspamapptechKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Has good things to say about USA, Australia, New Zealand (so I can
> post it here :-)  )
>
> Not so kind things to say about others.

While our government was slow to act, our population has donated a
fair chunk of money, totalling $147 million so far, with more to come
with the revenue from the benefit concerts.

A Canadian couple donated $5 million of their own savings, they
own(ed?) Music World, a relatively large chain in Canada.

Alex

2005\01\13@204115 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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> While our government was slow to act, our population has donated a
> fair chunk of money, totalling $147 million so far, with more to
> come
> with the revenue from the benefit concerts.

NZ's private donations per capita are lower than from many countries
fwiw.


       RM

2005\01\13@211040 by John Ferrell

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Locally, the churches & community organizations are funneling smaller
donations (a few hundred dollars at a time) up their respective chains to
aid in the disaster. Rather than quibble about how much will be sent
ultimately the consensus is to get something going now with the idea we will
need to do better later. I think when the smoke clears on this situation,
those who "could help and did not" of the world will face a different and
more hostile world.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\01\13@235658 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 13, 2005, at 5:20 PM, Russell McMahon wrote:

>
> NZ's private donations per capita are lower than from
> many countries fwiw.
>
>
Money is probably of use in the long term.  In the short term, things
like people, equipment. and expertise are more useful.  As I think you
said before, it's nearly impossible to put a pure monetary value on
something like a month's worth of an aircraft carrier full of
helicopters and pilots.  Even if you had the money to cover the
operating expenses, it couldn't cause the AC to spring from mid-air.
THAT takes a country with a military budget that varies between silly
and evil, except during the brief periods when you get to use all
the toys for things widely accepted as "good."  Sigh.

Of course, the more cynical perhaps worry that at some point the US
will say "hey, that's the end of out $350M; we're out'a here!", even
when there are still a lot of pieces that need put back together.

On the third hand, I wouldn't underestimate the value of all those
countries that are relaxing their loan repayment terms, either...

BillW

2005\01\14@000928 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jan 13, 2005, at 6:13 PM, John Ferrell wrote:

> when the smoke clears on this situation, those who "could help and did
> not" of the world will face a different and more hostile world.
>
Too bad.  We don't need any more hostility, and it would be a better
precedent in general if those who could help and did ended up facing
a LESS hostile world.

I wonder if that little girl who (apparently) saved a beaches worth
of people will get a free room for life, whenever she wants it.  That
would be ... poetic.  http://rense.com/general61/tele.htm
(hope it's a true incident...)

BillW

2005\01\14@012730 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Of course, the more cynical perhaps worry that at some point the US
> will say "hey, that's the end of out $350M; we're out'a here!", even
> when there are still a lot of pieces that need put back together.

Alas the US are liable to be kicked out of where they are doing most
good long before they are not needed. The Indonesian military have set
a 3 month deadline maximum on allowing US to help. Us troops are not
allowed to set up forward bases in Indonesia - personnel all return to
ships at night etc. I imagine that in some centres such as around
airports this may not be quite so tight. I suspect the US will be only
too keen to help for a long long time. I can understand the Indonesian
military's attitude, but it's a great shame.

Indonesian locals are asking (using eg cellphone texting) if they are
to be the next Iraq. Indonesian military don't want to be shown up too
much and this doesn't help.

I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US) troops now have
very large USA labels on them. Advertising is good, shouting maybe not
quite so clever. I think people would notice just as well long term if
the labels were a little understated. Indonesian aid boxes immediately
stand out to me. US ones would stand out to them. I'm pleased that
foreign aid is now apparently arriving "on the ground" (as opposed to
foreigners delivering Indonesian aid as was happening until recently).




       RM

2005\01\14@063953 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:16:15 +1300, Russell McMahon
wrote:

> I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
troops now have very large USA labels on them.
Advertising is good, shouting maybe not quite so clever.

Have to make sure they're visible on the news footage!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\01\14@110057 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
> troops now have very large USA labels on them.
> Advertising is good, shouting maybe not quite so clever.
>
> Have to make sure they're visible on the news footage!

So now we're damned because we did, rather than because
we didn't, because the LABELS on the FOOD we are
DONATING are too big?

Two of the caps words in the prior paragraph are important.
One isn't.  I'll leave it to you to decide which.

Note that this is not entirely because I'm a US citizen- I have
very few illusions left that anything my nation does is for the
good of anyone buy a very few rich and powerful Americans.
But frankly, I get a little weary of this "Great Satan" image
we've acquired, this notion that America is this tacky, self-
aggrandizing, petulant child-state, much as I get tired of
hearing that Islamic nations are backwards savages who
won't be satisfied until everyone is converted or dead.

Also, Russell's point that Indonesian locals are questioning
whether they will be the next Iraq is not at all unreasonable;
after all, Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation on Earth.  It
just gets forgotten because it isn't in the Middle East.

Mike H.

PS- I'm well aware that on the grand scheme of nations,
230 years or so really is quite young.

2005\01\14@113221 by Pierre Desrochers

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face
I had a Cat that fell in the swimming pool.

Forever after he was afraid of water.

We would pour water into a glass for drinking and he would look at us.  
"Are you trying to kill me?" was what he seem to tell us.

Many nation now look the same way at the US.  Unfortunatly this is a
result of many things.

I'm just glad these people get to eat a little.

Mike Hord wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\01\14@121739 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Religious-based hate is the deepest hate of all human emotion.

The anger against the US is an extension of the age-old anger between
Israel and the Arabs. There's no conceivable thing I know of, even
food or emergency aid, that will repair it.

--Bob


Mike Hord wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
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2005\01\14@142427 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, Mike Hord wrote:

>>> I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
>> troops now have very large USA labels on them.
>> Advertising is good, shouting maybe not quite so clever.
>>
>> Have to make sure they're visible on the news footage!
>
> So now we're damned because we did, rather than because
> we didn't, because the LABELS on the FOOD we are
> DONATING are too big?

You could rename the font 'Texas Medium' and get away with that too ;-)

Peter

2005\01\14@185333 by Russell McMahon

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>> > I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
>> troops now have very large USA labels on them.

> So now we're damned because we did, rather than because
> we didn't, because the LABELS on the FOOD we are
> DONATING are too big?

>> So now we're damned because we did, rather than because
>> we didn't, because the LABELS on the FOOD we are
>> DONATING are too big?

No. Not at all. Absolutely no criticism from me for giving aid.
Think of it as a comment on increasing the benefit you get from your
investment :-)

You'll always get plus points for anything positive (whoever you are)
even though some knockers will always find fault.

BUT you'll get even more points if, within reason, you develop the
"'right stuff" laconic approach to things
"Houston, we have a problem". (you know who)
"Loudest noise I ever heard" (Scott Crossfield after his engine
exploded).

Overdo it and people will complain as well, but not as much as when
you promote yourself loudly.

When you are going into a largely Muslim country whose people on
average are liable to be at least slightly suspicious of your long
term intentions, its almost certainly enough to be sure they know that
it's you who has provided the aid. Having it come in helicopters with
"US Navy" emblazoned thereon, carried out by men in helmets and
earmuffs (look at the photos) and in sacks labelled entirely in
english probably makes the point fairly well. If it says "Made in the
USA" or whatever somewhere on the bag so much the better. Aid is
appreciated, but being on the receiving end of charity almost always
rankles, and being low key (while being sure you are seen :-) )
probably increases the appreciation factor and decreases the rankle
factor.

My opinion anyway. But, it's their aid to give, they can give it any
way they want.

> Two of the caps words in the prior paragraph are important.
> One isn't.  I'll leave it to you to decide which.

I think FOOD is the only really important word for the recipients.
DONATED is a secondary issue, of potential benefit for the giver and
less so for the recipients. I imagine that it is to everyone's benefit
if the recipients learn to feel good about the givers. But there can
be a fine line in how this is achieved. Something closer to
subconcious suggestion thatn to Wall street advertising probably works
best.

> Note that this is not entirely because I'm a US citizen- I have
> very few illusions left that anything my nation does is for the
> good of anyone buy a very few rich and powerful Americans.
> But frankly, I get a little weary of this "Great Satan" image
> we've acquired, this notion that America is this tacky, self-
> aggrandizing, petulant child-state, much as I get tired of
> hearing that Islamic nations are backwards savages who
> won't be satisfied until everyone is converted or dead.

Well appreciated. but the image is there, for whatever reason, and
anything that can be done to help dispell it is worthwhile. The
current superb aid operation is very likely to be a step in the right
direction. But it won't change things over night, of course. It needs
to be followed up by a decade or so of consistent related activity, as
a precursor to a centuru or so of consistent action. If every time a
US battle group hove to off ones coast the overwhelming reaction from
the vast majority was joy and relief (as on this occasion) then the US
would be doing very well indeed.

I had a final comment here but I'll put in a new post on the same
subject so it's not buried.



       Russell McMahon

2005\01\14@185335 by Russell McMahon

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> Note that this is not entirely because I'm a US citizen- I have
> very few illusions left that anything my nation does is for the
> good of anyone buy a very few rich and powerful Americans.
> But frankly, I get a little weary of this "Great Satan" image
> we've acquired, ...

A point I made recently at the end of a longish (aren't they all) post
was that the US (and my country, and many others) DO live on the backs
of many of the poorer countries of the world. *Regardless* of the
rights and wrongs of this and the justifications for doing so, if
you/we want to maintain this relationship in the long term then the
"cost of doing business" has to be appreciated and aid in the broadest
sense needs to more closely match the benefits we are deriving from
the under priveleged. US gross national product is about 10 trillion
dollars per year. If "aid" in one form or other totalled around 1% of
this it would probably begin to be marginally equitable. 1% of 10
trillion is $US100 billion. When no hooks attached US "aid" tops that
figure you may begin to see some positive results. That's the
equivalent of about 30 times the current US budget for the earthquake
project. Imagine if the US did something of similar scale every 2
weeks on average all year every year. The great satan image would take
quite a pounding I suspect. And at 1% of GNP it's a bargain :-).



       RM

2005\01\14@203212 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 14, 2005, at 9:17 AM, Bob Axtell wrote:

> The anger against the US is an extension of the age-old anger
> between Israel and the Arabs.

Surely it's older than that.  Probably dates to the christian Crusades.

BillW

2005\01\14@232707 by Russell McMahon

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>> The anger against the US is an extension of the age-old anger
>> between Israel and the Arabs.

> Surely it's older than that.  Probably dates to the christian
> Crusades.

"Israel" is also (and it's no coincidence) the name of the founder of
the Jewish nation originally.
That predates the crusades somewhat. The USA is a bit younger :-)


       RM

2005\01\15@105459 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Us folks back home need to know that our politicians are doing what they say
they are doing. I doubt that most of the people know what the labels say.

I think that the plan to get the US out of there by March is best for all.
We Christians should not take advantage of the situation to undermine their
religon and culture.

I believe the conflict started when King David sent Hagar & son out of his
life. (Unthinkable in my view) That was well ahead of the Muslim religon.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell McMahon" <spamBeGoneapptechspamBeGonespamparadise.net.nz>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Perspectives on the Earthquake


>>> > I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
>>> troops now have very large USA labels on them.


2005\01\16@150002 by Richard.Prosser

flavicon
face

While I also noticed the size of the "USA" labels on the bags of corn, I
believe that it is important that those donating cash get to see a direct
result on TV news etc. The labels are not just for the locals benifit and
are not just for promotion purposes, they supply a feedback mechanism to
the donars.

On the other point - I'm hesitant to point out that Indonesia is also an
oil exporter.

RP



> > I notice that the bags of aid being handled by (US)
> troops now have very large USA labels on them.
> Advertising is good, shouting maybe not quite so clever.
>
> Have to make sure they're visible on the news footage!

So now we're damned because we did, rather than because
we didn't, because the LABELS on the FOOD we are
DONATING are too big?

Two of the caps words in the prior paragraph are important.
One isn't.  I'll leave it to you to decide which.

Note that this is not entirely because I'm a US citizen- I have
very few illusions left that anything my nation does is for the
good of anyone buy a very few rich and powerful Americans.
But frankly, I get a little weary of this "Great Satan" image
we've acquired, this notion that America is this tacky, self-
aggrandizing, petulant child-state, much as I get tired of
hearing that Islamic nations are backwards savages who
won't be satisfied until everyone is converted or dead.

Also, Russell's point that Indonesian locals are questioning
whether they will be the next Iraq is not at all unreasonable;
after all, Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation on Earth.  It
just gets forgotten because it isn't in the Middle East.

Mike H.

PS- I'm well aware that on the grand scheme of nations,
230 years or so really is quite young.

2005\01\18@221133 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
I wonder how much it cost our politicians to:

Recover the boxes and ship them back out and back in again?

Walk them in a circle so each box goes past the camera multiple times?

Ship lots of empty boxes with "USA" on the side?

My point is that we will never know if our donation actually make it to that
place. It is just too easy to separate a... donor... from his money. Or
separate the money from the cause.
www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/Telemarketing/Outbound/Minor/dona
tions.htm

Or turn the people in what ever direction you like:

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple
matter to drag people along, whether it is democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This
is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in every country"
-- Hermann Goering, Hitlers Reich-Marshal at Nuremburg after WWII. (This is
true: check snopes: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm )

Irrespective of the cause of the conflict, it has been kept alive not only
to benefit each countries leaders, but also by perceived differences between
the peoples.

If you want to do something to help, which costs nothing (in terms of money)
all you need to do is go to work tomorrow wearing a turban or other
traditional garb from your favorite Islamic country. Tell everyone that you
wanted to find out what it felt like. Describe the advantages of dressing
that way. Offer to let them try it on.

This will reduce the fear of the unknown as bred by visual differences.

Or try doing your part for peace by learning about other religious (not on
this list please <GRIN>)

Has ANY white bread American attended a service at a local Mosque? Buddhist
temple? Etc... Or the other way around? Has any Islamic believer had the
courage to attend "Faith Baptist" down the street? And how were these
wanderers received? Are you scared of what your friends might think? Are you
scared that you might end up a convert? <GRIN>

Another example: I support Gay Rights. An organization I used to belong to
was trying to learn to accept and live with GBLTs (Gay, Bi, Lesbian, and
Transsexual) and one of the suggestions was that we pair up with friends of
the same sex and go out to social functions, introducing each other as our
"partner" (not a lie since we were partnered for this exercise) and just let
people assume what they would. Now THAT was scary. I won't go into the
details, but seeing things from the other persons point of view can be a
REAL eye opener.

I can't begin to tell you how strongly I want to "let slip" with some proof
that I'm straight at this point in this post... Kind of sad really, after
all these years.

Anyway, be safe, watch out: Don't stand in anyone else's shoes, the change
in perspective might eventually make you an outcast. Better to be solid in
your convictions that whatever your group is doing is the exact right thing.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302800560

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\01\18@223537 by Richard.Prosser

flavicon
face

Who said-
"If you want to criticise someone, first walk a mile in their shoes.

--- That way you're a mile away from them and wearing their shoes"

??

Richard P




I wonder how much it cost our politicians to:

Recover the boxes and ship them back out and back in again?

>snip.......



Anyway, be safe, watch out: Don't stand in anyone else's shoes, the change
in perspective might eventually make you an outcast. Better to be solid in
your convictions that whatever your group is doing is the exact right
thing.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302800560

---
James.





2005\01\18@230737 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Or turn the people in what ever direction you like:
>
> "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is
> the
> leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a
> simple
> matter to drag people along, whether it is democracy, or a fascist
> dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or
> no
> voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
> leaders. This
> is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and
> denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
> country to
> danger. It works the same in every country"
> -- Hermann Goering, Hitlers Reich-Marshal at Nuremburg after WWII.
> (This is
> true: check snopes: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm )

It is salutary to consider the Nazis from time to time, and especially
the inner core. But be ware of quoting scum* like Goering to make a
general point. What they achievedwas after a very very long softening
up peiod which began , at least. with the treaty of Versailles in
1918-1919, trhe reparations exacted from them on, and throughtout the
seductyion of the German people during the 1930s. To achieve the same
thing under an eg 4 year term dual party government system would be
'rather harder", regardless of what one may feel about one's own
current government.

For reasons unknown I seem to be becoming increasingly interested in
the history of WW2 and the more I read the less I'm sure I know about
it all. I haven't yet read anything by Goering, but expect it would be
of minimal value in determining what 'really" happened.

Also, fwiw, Goering was quite wrong in his central assertion above.
You may be able for a while to obtain, through violence and deceit, a
lack of overt dissent from the people, but it's far harder to win
their hearts.



   RM

* Goering was arguabley less principled than Hitler. Hitler was a
"true patriot" (the most dangerous kind) driven by a delusional hatred
which badly affected his judgement and may have lost him a winnable
war. Goering just enjoyed the game.






2005\01\19@021708 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:11 PM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Has ANY white bread American attended a service at a local Mosque?
> Buddhist temple? Etc... Or the other way around? Has any Islamic
> believer had the courage to attend "Faith Baptist" down the street?

Speaking as someone who was brought up catholic, I don't know that
I'd  have the courage to attend "Faith Baptist" services :-)

My high school had a comparative religion class.  The history teacher
who taught it also happened to be a minister (I forget exactly which
christian denomination.)  I thought that was pretty cool.

> My point is that we will never know if our donation actually
> make it to that place. It is just too easy to separate a...
> donor... from his money.

Heh.  Checks and balances, you know.  In the US, at least, there
are enough "competing" charities, politicians, and 'critical observers'
that if ZYX screws up, the world WILL hear about it from WQA.  Likewise
politicians making too much of themselves is great material for the
press :-)  Charities have to do a fair amount of paperwork to keep
that "charitable" status, and it's all public information.  Nowdays,
they also have to go though considerable trouble to prove that none
of their money ends up in terrorist hands (a particular sore point
of employees at companies with oh-so-careful "matching gifts"
departments.  Grr...)

BillW

2005\01\19@150103 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Richard.Prosser@powerware.com <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu> wrote:

> Who said-
> "If you want to criticise someone, first walk a mile in their shoes.
>
> --- That way you're a mile away from them and wearing their shoes"
>
> ??

   Attributed to Frieda Norris, Dave Barry, and numerous others.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- aiwEraseMEspam.....cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

2005\01\19@220250 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> For reasons unknown I seem to be becoming increasingly
> interested in the history of WW2 and the more I read the less
> I'm sure I know about it all. I haven't yet read anything by
> Goering, but expect it would be of minimal value in
> determining what 'really" happened.
>
> Also, fwiw, Goering was quite wrong in his central assertion above.
> You may be able for a while to obtain, through violence and
> deceit, a lack of overt dissent from the people, but it's far
> harder to win their hearts.

Where can I get a pair of rose colored glasses like yours?

READ "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006131983X/jamesnewtonspers

For goodness sake, LISTEN TO THIS:

...Milgram's studies were done between 1961 and 1962 while he was at Yale;
they were all variations on a theme: a unknowing participant (the
subject-teacher) was brought to believe that s/he was participating in a
learning study. The other two main participants were a man who posed as the
student (the learner) and one who posed as the principal investigator (the
authority figure).

The subject-teacher was told that the learning would occur in this way: the
student would be hooked up to an electric shock generator while the teacher
would read a set of word pairs, which the student would repeat back. When
the student missed one of the word pairs, he would be shocked by the
"teacher" in increasingly higher shocks (the shocks increased in 15 volt
increments), up to 450 volts (which was marked, along with the 435 volt
mark, with XXX).

The basic goal of the study was to find out how far the "teachers" would go
despite the cries, pounding and eventual silence on the part of the
students. The frightening finding was that the vast majority of teachers
followed through with the command to continue the experiment, which was
given by the man acting as the principal investigator every time one of the
"teachers" wanted to quit.

Most subjects shocked the actor past maximum voltage, to lethal doses; they
"killed" the actor. Or would have killed if the experiment was "real." They
were men, women, college educated or high school graduates, white and blue
collar workers from every possible background. The results were the same
almost every single time: People obey authority REGARDLESS of what the
authority figure is telling them to do, even if it is to injure another
human being.

This is not the heart pulling words of a loving, caring man (reference to
you Russell). This is hard cold data from clinical research done to exacting
standards with an unexpected result. No twisting. We are that horrible.

http://www.massmind.org/other/war4oil If the government tells the people
they need to invade another country, the people will go along. Some few may
be willing to ruin their lives to protest the action (read about 'nam
protesters and what happened to them) but the fact is that the majority of
the SHEEPLE will DO AS TOLD.

If an official of the Red Cross tells aid workers to pack up the supplies
and ship them back out, they will do it. Or not question that the boxes with
the big stickers are empty... Or send the money to a Swiss bank account...

Still don't believe it?

http://www.massmind.org/other/anarchist On August 19, 1934, 95% of the
Germans who were registered to vote went to the polls and 90% (38 million)
of adult German citizens voted to give Adolph Hitler complete and total
authority to rule Germany as he saw fit. Only 4.25 million Germans voted
against this transfer of power to a totalitarian regime.

Hitler's program was not a secret; nor were the means he proposed to use.
90% of the people voted for "Mien Kampf" and the Nuremberg rallies and the
repudiation of the Treaty of Versailles and Kristallnacht; the mandate was
overwhelming.

And it isn't fair to pick on the Germans... Lots of other peoples have done
worse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres

And lots of people have done things less horrible but still just as wrong
and without protest from the people. For example, did you know that:

1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold
and ES&S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
 
2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the
U.S. voting machine industry.
 
3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.
 
4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and
donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its
electoral votes to the president next year."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml

But the officials told us that the election was decided, and so we accepted
it. NO ONE CHECKED THE VOTING MACHINES. Please note, I don't give a hoot who
the president is. I have my own ideas on voting and elections:
http://www.massmind.org/other/votes

My concern is how we will keep the peace
http://www.massmind.org/other/peace "Democracy is the only form of
government. All the others are a democracy where the people have decided,
through inaction, to allow someone else to make the decisions."

And how we will retain the best minds and the best people
http://www.massmind.org/idea/websites This is the point of massmind. We are
all going to die and every day our brains die a little. We forget what we
knew. The techref was born the day I realized this. I made it public the day
my mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. She doesn't remember who any of us
are now and is not expected to live more than another year. She was a very
smart lady. I say "was" because when our brains stop, we aren't people
anymore are we?

I was told today that we have lost 400,000 every year to cigarette smoking.
If so, that puts this Earthquake to shame. I know automotive deaths also
beat this all to heck. But humans must focus on emotional issues rather than
on hard, cold, facts; numbers and clinical research. And we ignore the need
to collect and retain the best minds.

And we will have sex fast enough to repopulate the shores of every country
fast enough so that in a few years, no one will notice the difference. But
will those minds be better? Will they be educated by what was learned by
those who came before?

You do your part everything you post something to the PICList that teaches
others how to get a job done. And it goes into the archive. And people get
CD copies of that archive. Soon people will mirror the archive. And more
people can get to the internet...

If we really want to help, we should send old computers to these
countries...

---
James.



2005\01\19@235522 by Russell McMahon

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>> For reasons unknown I seem to be becoming increasingly
>> interested in the history of WW2 and the more I read the less
>> I'm sure I know about it all. I haven't yet read anything by
>> Goering, but expect it would be of minimal value in
>> determining what 'really" happened.
>>
>> Also, fwiw, Goering was quite wrong in his central assertion above.
>> You may be able for a while to obtain, through violence and
>> deceit, a lack of overt dissent from the people, but it's far
>> harder to win their hearts.
>
> Where can I get a pair of rose colored glasses like yours?

Almost all of us have a pair firmly attached.
The shade of rose varies.
As I'm sure you are aware, I have little illusion about human nature.
(quite apart from experience, the manual tells me what it's like,
remember :-) ). But you don't get Nazi Germany type results without a
lot of prior input. The ad man will try. And the (well known and often
quoted) shock tests that you mention show what you can achieve on the
samll scale. My mainest point was, avoid using Nazi Germany as a major
exemplar if you want your points to be believable. They were/are the
extreme and salutary example, but the path there was a long an unusual
one.

I just stumbled across a alive-in-the-US-of-A. brick on the path today
on a US racist / white supremacist website (http://www.panzerfaust.com . That
link says the site is down for maintenance - but all it's other pages
seem to be horribly alive. This bunch of cretans (racial slur :-) ) is
sending out 10,000 + CDs to YOUR schools attempting to bend their
minds to the Nazi mould. Their proud slogan "We don't just entertain
young racist minds, we create them". Their music is expressly aimed,
they say, at bringing more racists into the fold. While most of you
guys dicker over the relative merits of Republicans versus Democrats
these guys are getting on with trashing your young people AND making
money out of it at the same time.


> READ "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006131983X/jamesnewtonspers


All good stuff.


> ... standards with an unexpected result. No twisting. We are that
> horrible.

You should know I know :-) .

> http://www.massmind.org/other/war4oil If the government tells the
> people
> they need to invade another country, the people will go along. Some
> few may
> be willing to ruin their lives to protest the action (read about
> 'nam
> protesters and what happened to them) but the fact is that the
> majority of
> the SHEEPLE will DO AS TOLD.

Complex issues - but NOT the same as Nazi Germany. Similarities -
certainly. But to make one's point convincing it's best to try other
examples. Racist South africa of the past may suffice. Racist Zimbabwe
of the present also.

> If an official of the Red Cross tells aid workers to pack up the
> supplies
> and ship them back out, they will do it. Or not question that the
> boxes with
> the big stickers are empty... Or send the money to a Swiss bank
> account...

Some will. But the above examples will nowadays be blown by somone
almost instantly.

{Quote hidden}

We're back there again :-).
In 1914 Germany was manouvered into a war which it wanted to fight. So
did many other people, for all sorts of reasons. In 1918 Germany was
handed a humiliating settlement over which it had no control. While
MANY nations had been involved in starting the war for many reasons,
Germany was assigned the total blame.  They had large parts of "their"
country taken from them (which same parts had in part been taken away
from others ij the past)(which same parts ...). They were required to
pay vast levels of ongoing reparations to their "enemies" including
the French. They had to give up land to Poland to provide a corridor
to the sea for them. Alsace Lorraine (sp?) featured as a "hold land"
to them as Kosovo did to Serbians. Expect to hear more about Kosovo in
the next 50 to 200 years. And more. Hitler and the Nazis grew and were
able to grow as a direct result of inequitable treatment from WW1.
Which grew from past events. Few would doubt that the Germans deserved
to take considerable blame for WW1. But when dealing with the past,
failure to have an eye on the future helps guarantee that it will look
more like the past than is desirable.

Look at Germany's treatment after WW2 and its position today. Somebody
learned something. Look at Germany's "freedom of speech" laws compared
to the USA's. Many will disagree with them - but some hard learning
happened there.

> Hitler's program was not a secret; nor were the means he proposed to
> use.
> 90% of the people voted for "Mien Kampf" and the Nuremberg rallies
> and the
> repudiation of the Treaty of Versailles and Kristallnacht; the
> mandate was
> overwhelming.

The outline if Hitler's program was not secret. It was as available to
the world as to the German people. The detail and extension of his
program was extremely secret. The "final solution" was unknown to the
overwhelming majority. I am as convinced as one can reasonably be at
this remove in time, that one of his top people, Grand Admiral Raeder
(NOT a Nazi) , who was in charge of the German navy from 1933 to 1943,
was completely unaware of the existence of the concentration camps
until presented with the facts at the Nuremburg trials. It seems
inconceivable that someone so high up could not know. But I believe he
didn't and that this reflects the secrecy with which Hitler worked.
Divide and conquer was very much his style.

> And it isn't fair to pick on the Germans... Lots of other peoples
> have done
> worse
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres

That's better!
I'll stop here.
May pick up on the 2nd half later.
Maybe not, with any luck :-)


       Russell McMahon

2005\01\20@070619 by Gerhard Fiedler
picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Most subjects shocked the actor past maximum voltage, to lethal doses; they
> "killed" the actor. Or would have killed if the experiment was "real." They
> were men, women, college educated or high school graduates, white and blue
> collar workers from every possible background. The results were the same
> almost every single time: People obey authority REGARDLESS of what the
> authority figure is telling them to do, even if it is to injure another
> human being.

There exists a quite impressive documentary about this experiment. When I
went to school in Germany (70ies), this was shown to all students.
(Probably not in all schools, though. Ours was quite "progressive"...)

Gerhard

2005\01\20@074314 by Howard Winter

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picon face
James,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:02:45 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> I was told today that we have lost 400,000 every year to cigarette smoking.
> If so, that puts this Earthquake to shame. I know automotive deaths also
> beat this all to heck.

I presume you mean "beats the Earthquake figures", not beats the smoking figures.  Unless your roads are
*much* more deadly per capita than ours, I don't think your annual road deaths will come anywhere near the
Earthquake/Tsunami figures - the latter are currently being estimated at about 180,000, and I'd be surprised
if your road deaths were much more than a fifth of this a year.

Now what really annoys me is the huge effort and expense into "saving lives" on the road, but no *real* effort
is made to stop people smoking, and the huge opposite difference in the fatality rates.  I don't know what
your road death figures are, but the UK's is about 3,500 per year (61 per million of population, 2001 data),
whereas smoking kills 120,000 a year here (2,100 per million).  To give that some more easily "felt" average
numbers: someone is killed every two and a half hours on UK roads, but someone dies of smoking every 4
minutes!  

Now the UK has the lowest road fatality rate in Europe (UK National Statistics office, 2001 figures) but even
Portugal (the highest) is only 210 per million population, a tenth of the smoking death rate.

If governments were really serious about saving lives, they should stop anyone else starting to smoke, right
now!

(/rant)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\01\20@075610 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:50:11 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Alsace Lorraine (sp?) featured as a "hold land"  to them as Kosovo did to Serbians.

Alsace and Lorraine (they are actually seperate regions) have been argued about for centuries, with France and
Germany both claiming (and incoporating) them at times.  

Interesting snippet in relation to the psychological war: as well as the British Royal Family changing its
name from "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" to "Windsor", the dogs that most other English-speaking countries call "German
shepherds" in Britain are usually known as "Alsatians"!

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\01\20@171046 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2005-01-20 at 12:43 +0000, Howard Winter wrote:
> If governments were really serious about saving lives, they should stop anyone else starting to smoke, right
> now!

Hmm, you know, that's the ONE thing I DREAD about going to Europe: the
smoking.

Where I live (Ontario, Canada) there has been quite a movement over the
past few years to pretty much ban smoking. At the moment smoking is
completely banned in all public places (i.e. stores, transit, airports,
bars, pubs, restaurants, malls, etc.), and within certain distances of
some entrances. There are some people pushing for more banning,
including banning smoking in cars when the car has a child as a
passenger.

On top of that we just raised taxes on smoking.

While it's all not perfect, it's FAR better then some of what I've seen
in Europe. In Holland smoking was allowed in the airports within the
confines of restaurants, bars or casinos. Doesn't sound that bad until
you notice that those restaurants and bars are COMPLETELY open, not even
glass walls. So, within about a 30 meter radius all you see is haze.

At one point I actually had to move. I had found a nice seat to surf the
net (7 hour stopover), and then a flight arrived. All of a sudden the
bar about 20 meters near me started to fill with a ton of smoke, so much
so that my eyes started watering, 20 meters away.

Please note I'm NOT trying to pick on Holland alone, other places I've
been to in Europe were the exact same way (i.e. trains and hardware
stores in Austria).

Europe is quite far ahead of North America when it comes to many things,
but smoking isn't one of those things.


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\01\20@172823 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Europe is quite far ahead of North America when it comes to many things,
> but smoking isn't one of those things.

Even here in Iowa (not exactly known as a bastion of liberalism)
smoking laws have become so restrictive that I actively notice when I
smell cigarette smoke.  It surprises me, and I find it to be a welcome
change.

Mike H.

2005\01\20@173125 by Russell McMahon

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>> Alsace Lorraine (sp?) featured as a "hold land"  to them as Kosovo
>> did to Serbians.

That should have read "holy land".

> Alsace and Lorraine (they are actually seperate regions) have been
> argued about for centuries, with France and
> Germany both claiming (and incoporating) them at times.

Agree.
Referred to as Alsace-Lorraine mainly when arguing the border merit
questions.
Then there's "the Sudatenland" and "Tirol" and ... .

When we travelled north through northern Italy we noted that as we
neared the Austrian border the signs began to be in German, the people
tended to speak German and the houses LOOKED German. Even the
landscape started to look German :-). This was Tirol, part of germany
pre WW1, part of Italy post WW1, part of Germany and renamed
(unimaginatively) Alpenvorland during WW2 and now, again, part of
Italy. The history of who owned it and what it was part of is
traceable back to at least the 12th century (just as the Serbs trace
their grievances back to at least the battle of Kosovo at about the
same time!

       http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/AUT/tirol.html

My point was, to understand the Nazis appeal to the people you need at
least some awareness of the festering discontents that had risen out
of both distant history and the drubbing that they had experienced
*after* the first world war.

> Interesting snippet in relation to the psychological war: as well as
> the British Royal Family changing its
> name from "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" to "Windsor", the dogs that most other
> English-speaking countries call "German
> shepherds" in Britain are usually known as "Alsatians"!

Prince Harry has been trying to revive the connection :-(


       RM

2005\01\20@215704 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2005-01-20 at 16:28 -0600, Mike Hord wrote:
> > Europe is quite far ahead of North America when it comes to many things,
> > but smoking isn't one of those things.
>
> Even here in Iowa (not exactly known as a bastion of liberalism)
> smoking laws have become so restrictive that I actively notice when I
> smell cigarette smoke.  It surprises me, and I find it to be a welcome
> change.

I was actually going to ask what the situation was like for our
neighbours to the south. I'm glad to hear smoking seems to be treated in
the same way in at least one small area of the states. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\01\21@025934 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Europe is quite far ahead of North America when it comes to
> many things, but smoking isn't one of those things.

I have to agree. Just a few years ago in the Netherlands there were more
smoking seats in a train than non-smoking. This has now changed: no
smoking seats at all, and smoking on train stations only on the
platforms, and only around a 'smoking column'.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\01\21@045136 by Joe McCauley

picon face
Same here in Ireland since last year. No smoking in any work place, which
ammounts to a widespread ban. It appears to be working quite well.

Joe

{Original Message removed}

2005\01\21@045342 by Joe McCauley

picon face
Maybe I'm just cynical, but governments have a huge tax take on
cigarettes........

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamEraseMEmit.edu] On Behalf Of
Howard Winter
Sent: 20 January 2005 12:43
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [OT] Perspectives on the Earthquake


Now what really annoys me is the huge effort and expense into "saving lives"
on the road, but no *real* effort
is made to stop people smoking, and the huge opposite difference in the
fatality rates.  


2005\01\21@051058 by Jinx

face picon face
> Now what really annoys me is the huge effort and expense into
> "saving lives" on the road but

Which scarcely seems to make a difference. Some years the road toll
goes up. You could ask what would happen if the authorities did nothing
........... actual nothing that is, not the perceived nothing that someone
who's just copped a +5kph speeding ticket thinks they're doing

2005\01\22@025518 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Joe McCauley wrote:

> Maybe I'm just cynical, but governments have a huge tax take on
> cigarettes........

The factors that enter the equation are health system costs due to
smoking related diseases. What nobody says is how much more the extended
lifespan costs in old age pensions ... tainstaafl, and once the tobacco
consumption wil no longer be a relevant taxation source they will have
to tax something else *more* than that to make up for it, and for the
extra expense of the pension plans.

Peter

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