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'[OT] PHP?'
2005\03\11@063956 by Russell McMahon

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Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
easier/better at the same price (or for $).


       Russell McMahon

2005\03\11@065733 by Ake Hedman

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Russel,

I have previously used ASP for many years and now do some stuff using both ASP and PHP and I must say that almost everything talks for PHP.

- PHP is very C like which is good if one knows C.
- Everything is there and if not its easy to find something on the net that can be adopted to one needs.
- Its stable and free and don't take much resources from the system.
- It is easy to debug (http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=PHP+debug&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0).

Cheers
/Ake

Russell McMahon wrote:

> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).
>
>
>        Russell McMahon
>


--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\03\11@080158 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.

Maybe you tell us first what you want with it? It's nor a very good
langauge for programming FGPGA's, just to name something.

My general comment on learning languages: if you know one
procedural/algol-style language you know them all.

For more fun also study a static OO-language (Ada95, C++), maybe a
dynamic OO-language (Java? Smaltalk, Python). For real fun learn a
lazy-functional language (Haskell). And if you realy want to get crazy
enter the obfusciated C contest but cheat by submitting a program that
is valid C but realy should be run as Tcl.

> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of
> things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).

PHP and a lot of rivals are free, so that question evaluates to 0/0.
What that evaluates to depends on your language, but you should probably
study exception handling.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\11@083010 by Ian Smith-Heisters

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Of course it depends on what you need it for, but I've heard only rave
reviews of Perl Mason. It's similar, since PHP's syntax is based on
Perl, but much more powerful.

http://www.masonhq.com/

-ISH

Russell McMahon wrote:
> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).
>
>
>        Russell McMahon
>


--
http://www.0x09.com

2005\03\11@083934 by Martin Klingensmith
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Russell McMahon wrote:

> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).
>
>
>        Russell McMahon
>
C, Perl, and PHP are very similar syntax wise. Perl has the loosest
structure, while C is the strictest.
Perl and PHP are the two most similar, but PHP has MANY very high-level
functions that are relatively easy to use. PHP doesn't have the string
manipulation ability that Perl does.

--
---
Martin Klingensmith


2005\03\11@102527 by Peter Johansson

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Russell McMahon writes:

> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).

PHP is simple, free, and supported by a very large community.  It is
the best way to get started with web scripting, bar none.  I've gotten
non-programmers up to speed with PHP in a few hours, and even had a
few people doing basic SQL apps within a day.  PHP is beautifully
integrated with Apache, and it is probably the most commonly available
scripting language among shared hosting providers.

Of course, if you already happen to know Perl, Python, or Ruby you
might just want to stick with one of those for your web scripting.
A lot of people seem to like ASP, but I think these are the same
people who like to watch "Reality TV" -- personally I can't understand
why either are so popular.

Even if you do decide to do your "applications" work in another
language, PHP is a great way to manage include files -- do all your
headers, footers, navigation, etc, as include files and you'll really
thank yourself the first time you want to make a change.  Of course,
these days, that's all done via CMS, and eventually that's where you
are going to wind up if you get into anything serious.

-p.

2005\03\11@103434 by Alex Harford

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Have a look at the PHP Fundamentals articles at http://www.onlamp.com

Great stuff.

Alex

2005\03\11@120909 by Harold Hallikainen

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I started with Perl and moved to PHP since it's a bit less cryptic and
seems to be just as (or perhaps more?) powerful. I'm using it both to
generate web pages on the fly and from the command line. My daily updates
of the FCC rules are generated by a shell script that calls a bunch of PHP
scripts. This whole mess is called by cron at 1am.

Harold



--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\03\11@122545 by Bob Blick

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> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).

PHP is great if you want web pages with some dynamic content, or easy
templating, and it goes in your html, unlike Perl.

I guess competition would be ASP, Cold Fusion and JSP. But PHP is free and
very popular. It's also very easy to use and there are tons of examples
and modules.

Cheers,

Bob


2005\03\11@131420 by Padu

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I'm a lazy bastard... if I need to do something and this something is free
on the net to grasp and use it, then I will. The good thing about PHP is
that there are lots, I mean, lots of php scripts for everything you need.
Most of them for free.

The language is ok I guess. The new ASP.NET is easier, but I guess it is
restricted to MS-Windows servers (as PHP is mostly restricted to linux
servers). All depends.


> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).


2005\03\11@135732 by Harold Hallikainen

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> The language is ok I guess. The new ASP.NET is easier, but I guess it is
> restricted to MS-Windows servers (as PHP is mostly restricted to linux
> servers). All depends.


PHP can run on Windoze too...

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\03\11@141506 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of things or more
> easier/better at the same price (or for $).

Php is the de facto standard active web page coding language,
practically superseding Perl in that role. As such, if there is anything
that cannot be done in Php, then it will likely be implemented next
week. It is also simple and painless enough to learn, that anyone can
use it after some training.

The other side of the coin is, that the documentation is huge, it has in
excess of 400 functions dealaing with anything from infinite precision
arithmetic and spell checking to database access and cryptography, and
finding your way inside it may become a full-time job.

I use it, including for database access, it's ok if you don't mind using
search tools on your own documentation to find things you need ...

Peter


2005\03\11@141759 by Padu

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Yes, as I said, PHP is "mostly" restricted to linux. If a web server runs on
linux, it is 90% guaranteed to find PHP. It's not so easy to find PHP on a
windows machine though. Traditions...


> > The language is ok I guess. The new ASP.NET is easier, but I guess it is
> > restricted to MS-Windows servers (as PHP is mostly restricted to linux
> > servers). All depends.
>
>
> PHP can run on Windoze too...


2005\03\11@152955 by James Newtons Massmind

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> A lot of people seem to like ASP, but I think these are the
> same people who like to watch "Reality TV" -- personally I
> can't understand why either are so popular.

ASP is NOT a specific language. In fact most of the .asp pages on my web
site are programmed in JavaScript. I do understand that most .asp pages are
VBScript (and a lot of mine are as well, sad to say) but a given .asp page
could be PHP, Perl, or any other language which has a scripting engine.

ASP (= Active Server Page) is simply a system in IIS for dynamic content
creation, irrespective of the language used to do it.

---
James.






2005\03\11@161435 by Ian Smith-Heisters

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Harold Hallikainen wrote:
> I started with Perl and moved to PHP since it's a bit less cryptic and
> seems to be just as (or perhaps more?) powerful.

PHP does DSP?? http://pdl.perl.org/

Perl is a programming language. PHP is a server side scripting language.
A lot of people in this thread seem to be mixing that up. If you want to
 compare, compare PHP to Perl Mason, which is Perl's server side
scripting module.

There's more support for PHP on the web, but both are free, and Perl
Mason is more powerful (imho) and offers an easy opportunity to tie it
into the rest of Perl which can do just about anything a programming
language can do.

Sorry, I'm getting a bit perlangelical ;)

Does PHP offer the same regexp functionality as perl? If not, that'd be
another good reason to go with Perl Mason.

-Ian

I'm using it both to
> generate web pages on the fly and from the command line. My daily updates
> of the FCC rules are generated by a shell script that calls a bunch of PHP
> scripts. This whole mess is called by cron at 1am.
>
> Harold
>
>
>


--
http://www.0x09.com

2005\03\11@172342 by Michael Davidson

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"Bob Blick" <spam_OUTbblickTakeThisOuTspamsonic.net> at Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:25:44 -0800 (PST)
wrote:
> PHP is great if you want web pages with some dynamic content, or easy
> templating, and it goes in your html, unlike Perl.

Going in your HTML is a very bad thing for any decently sized
application. As someone who unfortunately makes their living from web
applications, I cannot preach the value of seperation of content and
design for web apps enough. It makes further revisions on both the
content and design far easier.

So, which ever way you're going, I'd recommend you seek out a template
engine. For PHP there is uh... FastTemplate, I think it is, and
PHPTemplate. Perl has Text::Template and HTML::Template as well as
probably some others. I'd recommend HTML::Template over Text::, Text::
tends to mix in a bit too much programming into the template, to the
point where your design guy may require knowledge of Perl to modify
them. If you go the way of ASP there is a template class (template_cls)
written by James Q. Stansfield. I believe he also wrote one for PHP. It
is very simplistic though (no loops, conditions, regexps, etc), so if
you go this route, contact me off list and I'll send you a vast
improvement on it. If you are so bold as as to use C/C++ there is
libtemplate, or I can send you an OO template library I've written.

As to the original question... they all have their benefits. Most
people on the list seem to be saying PHP is more widely used, I'd
always have thought it was Perl. But either way, both of these
languages are widely supported and the general trend for libraries /
modules is they are released under some free license. Perl has the
advantage of having regular expressions "built into"  the language (ie.
They are an operand, ~ and =~). PHP uses them as [e]reg_* functions.
ASP is also a rather nice environment, but the trend is that libraries
are commercial. I'm unsure of its RegExp support if you plan to use
JScript, VBScript has it in the RegExp class if you use >5.0. I've not
used .NET. One of the downsides of ASP is that third party libraries
will require administrator access to install, which can be a pain.

If you're wanting free, I'd probably rule out the ASP environment. So I
guess the choice would come down to PHP vs Perl, which is a question
you'll probably never get an unbiased answer for :) If you go the way
of Perl turn off the shortcut variables ($@, etc), I find they make
code very ugly. But both PHP and Perl have a wide array of support and
you'll encounter pros and cons either way. As such I'd recommend using
the very scientific method of flipping a coin to pick ;)

Michael Davidson

--
Fortune:

"He's the kind of man for the times that need the kind of man he is ..."


2005\03\11@190148 by Ben Hencke

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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:14:03 -0800, Ian Smith-Heisters
<.....heistersKILLspamspam@spam@0x09.com> wrote:
> Harold Hallikainen wrote:
> > I started with Perl and moved to PHP since it's a bit less cryptic and
> > seems to be just as (or perhaps more?) powerful.
>
> PHP does DSP?? http://pdl.perl.org/
>
> Perl is a programming language. PHP is a server side scripting language.

Between 2 interpreted languages that can run in any environment, how
do you define what is a programming language and what is a scripting
language?

FWIW, PHP is used for batch processing quite frequently, totally
outside of any webserver environment and is well equipped to handle
these tasks. You can make GUI applications with PHP using GTK. It even
has good socket support, making it possible to write servers and
clients well beyond the scope of a server side scripting language.

IMHO PHP has much better/flexible variable and array support and has a
cleaner syntax for doing many things and very much resembles C.

> Does PHP offer the same regexp functionality as perl? If not, that'd be
> another good reason to go with Perl Mason.

PHP has several regexp functions, even one for supporting Perl's
backwards regexp syntax.

:-) ;-) :-)

The real question is: "Can I actually read any of the example Perl
scripts?". Here are a few Perl examples to get started with:
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/214/1/


- Ben

2005\03\11@192021 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Hencke" <brainstarspamKILLspamgmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] PHP?


> The real question is: "Can I actually read any of the example Perl
> scripts?". Here are a few Perl examples to get started with:
> http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/214/1/

I tend to find them equally readable, but when I write things, I find Perl
amazingly "C-like", so it seems to be a lot easier (to a C bigot from way
back).  I also don't like that there seem to be as many PHP exploits as IE
exploits.

But then, I think about 99% of "easy to read" has to do which one you
tripped over first!

Still, Perl seems a little "lighter weight" so to a C guy, that's a good
thing.  My business site is almost entirely a relatively short Perl script,
with all the content in the database.  Having been a reasonably experienced
ASP guy, I was amazed at how quickly it came together even though it's all
this Linux-y stuff which is generally hard.

--McD


2005\03\11@193339 by Ian Smith-Heisters

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Ben Hencke wrote:
>
> Between 2 interpreted languages that can run in any environment, how
> do you define what is a programming language and what is a scripting
> language?
>

A good point, especially in light of...

> FWIW, PHP is used for batch processing quite frequently, totally
> outside of any webserver environment and is well equipped to handle
> these tasks. You can make GUI applications with PHP using GTK. It even
> has good socket support, making it possible to write servers and
> clients well beyond the scope of a server side scripting language.

I stand corrected! I had no idea PHP was such a MacGyver.

> The real question is: "Can I actually read any of the example Perl
> scripts?". Here are a few Perl examples to get started with:
> www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/214/1/
>

This is a feature! No, but really, any programming language is only as
neat as the programmer. Sometimes having more options on how to write
code can make it clearer given a certain context.

-Ian

>
> - Ben


--
http://www.0x09.com

2005\03\11@201204 by Peter Johansson

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James Newtons Massmind writes:

> > A lot of people seem to like ASP, but I think these are the
> > same people who like to watch "Reality TV" -- personally I
> > can't understand why either are so popular.
>
> ASP is NOT a specific language. In fact most of the .asp pages on my web
> site are programmed in JavaScript. I do understand that most .asp pages are
> VBScript (and a lot of mine are as well, sad to say) but a given .asp page
> could be PHP, Perl, or any other language which has a scripting engine.
>
> ASP (= Active Server Page) is simply a system in IIS for dynamic content
> creation, irrespective of the language used to do it.

That's true in theory, but in practice Classic ASP is synonymous
JScript or VBScript.  ASP.NET is a different beast entirely.  A big
part of the problem with ASP is that it *is* IIS, which historically
has been a nightmare in terms of security.

-p.

2005\03\11@235300 by Mike Singer

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
> ie Does one of the other contenders do the same sort of
> things or more easier/better at the same price (or for $).

I choose ASP.NET.
You need nobody to convince you which is better PHP or ASP.NET; just
Google for good info amd make you own choice.

Regards,

Mike.

2005\03\12@054046 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Michael Davidson wrote:

> So I guess the choice would come down to PHP vs Perl, which is a question
> you'll probably never get an unbiased answer for :) If you go the way of
> Perl turn off the shortcut variables ($@, etc), I find they make code
> very ugly. But both PHP and Perl have a wide array of support and you'll
> encounter pros and cons either way. As such I'd recommend using the very
> scientific method of flipping a coin to pick ;)

Or, better, read some examples and try to install and adapt a reasonably
complex package of either one. With my general programming background, I
found PHP to be almost intuitively understood; can't say the same about
Perl. YMMV, so check it out for yourself -- it seems to be pretty sharply
divided, so either you'll like PHP or you'll like Perl :)

Gerhard

2005\03\12@093523 by Dave VanHorn

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Just for grins, I wrote a transaction processing engine in PHP a while back.
You use Wget to create the query packet, and the php code did a bunch of
database lookups, and some fun math, and then sent you back a response as a
very easy to parse page of HTML.   I was able to sustain about 2000
transactions a second.


2005\03\12@141504 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Ian Smith-Heisters wrote:

> Does PHP offer the same regexp functionality as perl? If not, that'd be
> another good reason to go with Perl Mason.

PHP has all the string functions Perl has, and regexps in both Perl and
POSIX flavor. Unlike Perl programs, PHP code tends not to be read-only
(bad side: you need to type more). Here is a comparison between Perl and
PHP from the PHP documentation faq itself:

4. PHP vs. Perl?

The biggest advantage of PHP over Perl is that PHP was designed for
scripting for the web where Perl was designed to do a lot more and can
because of this get very complicated. The flexibility / complexity of
Perl makes it easier to write code that another author / coder has a
hard time reading. PHP has a less confusing and stricter format without
losing flexibility. PHP is easier to integrate into existing HTML than
Perl. PHP has pretty much all the 'good' functionality of Perl:
constructs, syntax and so on, without making it as complicated as Perl
can be. Perl is a very tried and true language, it's been around since
the late eighties, but PHP is maturing very quickly.

Peter

2005\03\12@204110 by Mike Singer

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> > So I guess the choice would come down to PHP vs Perl, which is
> > a question you'll probably never get an unbiased answer for :)

Googling with

"PHP vs ASP.NET" - 2 320 hits
"ASP.NET vs PHP" - 1 090 hits
"PHP vs ASP" - 26 300 hits
"ASP vs PHP" - 685 hits

"PHP vs Perl" - 872  hits
"Perl vs PHP" - 511  hits

Mike.

2005\03\13@081723 by Neil Cherry

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Mike Singer wrote:
>>>So I guess the choice would come down to PHP vs Perl, which is
>>>a question you'll probably never get an unbiased answer for :)
>
>
> Googling with
>
> "PHP vs ASP.NET" - 2 320 hits
> "ASP.NET vs PHP" - 1 090 hits
> "PHP vs ASP" - 26 300 hits
> "ASP vs PHP" - 685 hits
>
> "PHP vs Perl" - 872  hits
> "Perl vs PHP" - 511  hits

"Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)

--
Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       .....ncherryKILLspamspam.....comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/               (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/                     (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog

2005\03\13@134545 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:39:50 +1300, Russell McMahon
<EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.

I've been learning PHP and MySQL since Friday, here is an example site
that I put together:

http://wasabi.dynu.com:8080/chronos/

It's quite primitive, but you can get an idea of what you can do.

Note that I'm already experienced with HTML, and I already had PHP and
MySQL running on my webserver to do other things, but I didn't have
any knowledge on how they worked (used the installation scripts for
the other web sites like my blog and wiki).

Once you have a webserver up and running with PHP and MySQL enabled,
everything you need to know is here:

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/ct/29

I read through these tutorials on Friday night and yesterday, while I
added some sample data to the database.

This morning (Sunday) I started putting the PHP together at about
8:00am and now I'm typing this message at 9:42am.

Like I said, the website is very primitive, I'm going to add a ton of
other features, but you can get a good idea of what is possible.
Right now the ugly thing is that people are listed by their barcodes
but I'm going to change the table lookup for the event to a 'join'
with the member table to get their name... you'll understand what I
mean after you read the MySQL crash course.

I'm off to the gym, but I'm going to make more progress this afternoon I hope...

Alex

2005\03\13@145215 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Harford" <harfordspamspam_OUTgmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] PHP?


> http://wasabi.dynu.com:8080/chronos/
>
> It's quite primitive, but you can get an idea of what you can do.

For a slightly more developed Perl example, take a peek at
http://www.is-sixsigma.com

Although the site has had a little more cosmetic work than Alex's example,
there is really no active content on the site -- mostly because I didn't
need any.  However, I was amazed at what one could do with a little Perl.

The entire site consists of a small html shell and a relatively short Perl
script.  If you follow the links Storyboards->IS6S website->IS6S Explore you
will get a PDF.  Slides 19 and 20 of the PDF outline how the site is
assembled.

--McD


2005\03\13@233100 by Mike Singer

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Neil Cherry wrote:
> > "PHP vs ASP.NET" - 2 320 hits
> > "ASP.NET vs PHP" - 1 090 hits
> > "PHP vs ASP" - 26 300 hits
> > "ASP vs PHP" - 685 hits
> >
> > "PHP vs Perl" - 872  hits
> > "Perl vs PHP" - 511  hits
>
> "Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)

That's for Olin to develop websites with ASM :-)

Mike.

2005\03\13@235948 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:44:36 -0800, Alex Harford <@spam@harfordKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Tell me why I do or don't want to learn  & use PHP.
>
> I've been learning PHP and MySQL since Friday, here is an example site
> that I put together:
>
> http://wasabi.dynu.com:8080/chronos/

Instead of manually adding entries to the database, I set up some admin options:

wasabi.dynu.com:8080/chronos/admin/add_user.php
http://wasabi.dynu.com:8080/chronos/admin/add_event.php

Feel free to add users and events to see how the main website
behaves... be warned, there's no input validation yet... :)

Alex

2005\03\14@003210 by Russell McMahon

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>> "Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)
>
> That's for Olin to develop websites with ASM :-)

But you have to be running his special environment to view them :-)


       RM

2005\03\14@013158 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> >
> > "Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)
>
> That's for Olin to develop websites with ASM :-)
>
> Mike.



http://techref.massmind.org/techref/inet/win32asm/index.htm

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/inet/win32asmcgi/index.htm

---
James.



2005\03\14@021515 by Peter

picon face


On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Mike Singer wrote:

{Quote hidden}

PHP vs ASP is fairly easy to answer without Google: 60+ % of the web
servers run Apache and Apache does not run ASP. However there is a
asp2php script that allows one to upgrade from legacy systems <g>

Peter

2005\03\14@031305 by Ake Hedman

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Peter,

>"...Apache does not run ASP...

But it does. SUN have a system that comes with the netra (dont remeber the name now) and there is http://www.apache-asp.org/

Cheers
/Ake

Peter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
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2005\03\14@073807 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:29:33 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> >> "Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)
> >
> > That's for Olin to develop websites with ASM :-)
>
> But you have to be running his special environment to view them :-)

But of course!  Why on Earth would anyone want to run anything else?  ;-)

(Seems a bit mean poking fun at him in OT where he won't see it, and so can't respond... but as we say in
England, c'est la vie!)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\14@221740 by Mike Singer

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> >> "Perl vs asm" - 15,600 hits :-)
> >
> > That's for Olin to develop websites with ASM :-)
>
> But you have to be running his special environment to view them :-)

And absolute positioning of elements on a web-page would not work, I think ;-)

Mike.

2005\03\14@222356 by Mike Singer

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Peter wrote:
> PHP vs ASP is fairly easy to answer without Google: 60+ % of the web
> servers run Apache

The same about two-wheeled vehicles vs four-wheeled.

Mike.

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