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PICList Thread
'[OT] PC keyboards'
1998\10\04@082142 by Tom Handley

picon face
  While this is off-topic it relates to all of us here as we probably
spend far more time using a keyboard than the average computer user. To make
a long story a bit shorter... I recently upgraded from a Pentium 90 to a
Micron Millennia 450 Max which I absolutely love with the exception of the
keyboard...

  The keyboard uses membrane key switches with that typical `mushy' feel.
My old keyboard was a Key-Pro from Focus Electronics (FK-9000) which
apparently are no longer in business. It uses mechanical switches with a
nice solid feel and an audible `click' when you hit a key. It also has 12
separate programmable function keys, cursor keys that moves in 8 directions,
a tilt-up holder for function key templates, curved key rows, and a numeric
keypad that doubles as a calculator with an LCD display.

  I've searched the internet for the last week and I can't find anything
close... I found a few with internet browser keys that are user-programmable
but they all had membrane keys... I've looked at NMB (that's my keyboard)
and they have a version with mechanical keys but it's the same basic layout.
I've also looked at Keytronic, Logitech, Memorex, Microsoft, and several
others. Geesh, I've found keyboards with scanners, speakers, microphones,
all kinds of pointing devices, but no one has anything similar to the
Key-Pro. You would think someone would make a keyboard that appeals to
programmers. Has anyone run across a good keyboard in this `day and age' of
silent, compact, made for office workers, Windows-compatible, keyboards?
Thanks,

  - Tom

1998\10\04@084033 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tom Handley wrote:

> others. Geesh, I've found keyboards with scanners, speakers, microphones,
> all kinds of pointing devices, but no one has anything similar to the
> Key-Pro. You would think someone would make a keyboard that appeals to
> programmers. Has anyone run across a good keyboard in this `day and age' of
> silent, compact, made for office workers, Windows-compatible, keyboards?
> Thanks,

Don't be so sure about membranes until you open one up and make sure...
Anyway, Cherry make good clickety-click keyboards. They are not silent
however. I think that you should look at a catalog of PC components for
industrial use, these are usually heavy duty and compatible. At least this
is my experience so far.

Peter

1998\10\04@150023 by Dwayne Reid

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face
>   While this is off-topic it relates to all of us here as we probably
>spend far more time using a keyboard than the average computer user. To make
>a long story a bit shorter... I recently upgraded from a Pentium 90 to a
>Micron Millennia 450 Max which I absolutely love with the exception of the
>keyboard...

<big snip>

If you live in or are near Canada, Princess Auto out of Winnepeg, Manitoba
has surplus but new-in-case IBM keyboards with PS2 connectors.  I've bought
about a dozen of them to replace the aging keyboards we currently use.  They
are not too bad a keyboard and hopefully have the legendary IBM reliability.

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <spam_OUTdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(403) 489-3199 voice     (403) 487-6397 fax

1998\10\04@172522 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I wouldn't judge a keyboard by its technology ("mechanical" vs "membrane".)
"Feel" varies greatly even within a catagory, and you pretty much have
to try them out to see whether you like them.

When I upgraded from 286 to 90Mhz pentium, I kept my old keyboard.  I may
do the same with my recent upgrade to 266Mhz PII, although I'll have to
find an adaptor to go to the PS2 style connector (even the 286 vintage
keyboard have XT vs AT mode, and the ps/2s are just AT with a different
connector, right?)  The thing that seems to bother me most about the new
keyboard is that it's too light, mass-wise.  Sigh.

BillW

1998\10\04@175506 by Mark Willis

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The PS/2 connector also has pins for the PS/2 mouse (I have a
schematic for the Y-adapter, though I can buy them locally at Hard
Drives Northwest, for $8 or $9.)  Whether your computer wires those pins
up or not, I can't say <G>  The site I got the Y adapter schematic from
seems to be down (German site IIRC.)

 You do need to use the Y adapter (you can't plug the PS/2 mouse into a
keyboard connector directly.  WHY, I don't know!  Dumb IMHO)

 Oh, and for pretty inexpensive AT to PS/2 adapters, I think C-Gate
(http://www.computergate.com) asks 79 cents for those?  (I've thought of
offering to mail such for the price of items + mailing, next time I do a
C-Gate order, but just haven't done it, for those in the EEU etc.  Some
small parts would mail in a little pouch or cardboard envelope, pretty
easily.  (Receiver's to handle duty/tax/etc.)  Same for some electronics
parts, I get past the local electronics stores & the local airport post
office regularly, need to go there today in fact - they're open 24/7
almost all year.)

 Mark, .....mwillisKILLspamspam@spam@nwlink.com

William Chops Westfield wrote:
>
> <snip> the ps/2s are just AT with a different
> connector, right?) <snip>
>
> BillW

1998\10\04@230458 by Lee Jones

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> I recently upgraded from a Pentium 90 to a Micron Millennia 450
> Max which I absolutely love with the exception of the keyboard...

If you like it, use the old keyboard on the new system.  There are
adapters to convert either way (PS/2 to AT or vice versa).


> [new] keyboard uses membrane key switches with that typical
> `mushy' feel.
> My old keyboard was a Key-Pro from Focus Electronics (FK-9000)
> which apparently are no longer in business. It uses mechanical
> switches with a nice solid feel and an audible `click' when you
> hit a key.

I believe the keyboard with the best tactile feel is from IBM.
IBM sells their keyboards with their PC systems.  You can still
also buy replacement keyboards under the "Easy Options by IBM"
banner with an IBM logo.

A full buckling-spring technology (aka Selectric typewriter) PC
keyboard weighs 5 pounds.  Current IBM part number is 92G7454.
I'm typing on an older version of this keyboard right now.  There
is a solid, mechanical click as each key is depressed.

CDW (Computer Discount Warehouse, http://www.cdw.com, 800-848-4239) in
Illinois has them in stock as item 40316 for $82.98 [I never said
they were cheap.]  My account manager is Dan Hansen at x7390 and
I recommend him (tell him Lee Jones referred you).

IBM used versions of this keyboard on their PS/2 systems.  You can
often find them used for a low price.  They clean up nicely since
they're mechanically very robust.


IBM also makes a rubber dome technology keyboard that is quiet
but still has a reasonable tactile feel.  Current part number is
41H9724.  CDW has it as item 78086 for $32.64.  I've also seen it
at CompUSA for $30 to $35.  It's also available in black.


Both of the IBM keyboards come with PS/2 style 6-pin miniDIN
connectors.  The retail package used to come with an AT style
5-pin DIN adapter.  I assume they still do.


> [Key-Pro] also has 12 separate programmable function keys,
> cursor keys that moves in 8 directions, a tilt-up holder for
> function key templates, curved key rows, and a numeric
> keypad that doubles as a calculator with an LCD display.

The IBM keyboards don't have these sorts of extras.  They're just
super reliable, rock solid keyboards with standard, consistent key
layout (to which I've grown accustomed to over the years).

                                               Lee Jones

1998\10\06@004918 by Tom Handley

picon face
At 03:20 PM 10/4/98 +0000, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tom Handley wrote:
>
>> others. Geesh, I've found keyboards with scanners, speakers, microphones,
>> all kinds of pointing devices, but no one has anything similar to the
>> Key-Pro. You would think someone would make a keyboard that appeals to
>> programmers. Has anyone run across a good keyboard in this `day and age' of
>> silent, compact, made for office workers, Windows-compatible, keyboards?
>> Thanks,
>
>Don't be so sure about membranes until you open one up and make sure...
>Anyway, Cherry make good clickety-click keyboards. They are not silent
>however. I think that you should look at a catalog of PC components for
>industrial use, these are usually heavy duty and compatible. At least this
>is my experience so far.

  Peter, I've looked at a few dozen keyboard specs and they clearly
indicate that they are using membranes. You simply can't get the same
tactile feedback that you have with a mechanical key switch. Also, typical
membrane switches are rated for 20 million cycles vs 100 million for
mechanical.

  As far as Cherry, that's an old name that I have not looked at! Still, I
did'nt see them listed in my `exhaustive' internet search. I go back to the
Teletype and the Adam 3... One of my old favorites was the Heath/Zenith CP/M
Z80 machines. The Focus Key-Pro was the best of the bunch over the years of
a variety of UNIX terminals, Apples, MACs, Amigas, and PCs.

  It seems to me that there is a market for a programmer's keyboard in a
Windows environment. There are high-end keyboards but they are not suitable
for a PC environment running Windows. The Key-Pro was a popular keyboard
with all the features I mentioned earlier. My only complaint was that the
calculator powered-down after a few minutes and lost it's memory. To
summarize the features in the Key-Pro and what I would like to see:

  *  Standard PC Keyboard layout with L-shaped ENTER key.
  *  Windows keys which is common now days.
  *  Color coding of keycap legends relating to the CTRL and SHIFT keys
     (Red and Blue).
  *  8-Key cursor pad. For example, the upper-right arrow generates
     up-arrow + right-arrow codes.
  *  A tilt-up holder for function key templates.
  *  At least 12 additional user-programmable function keys. This should
     be local to the keyboard and not require a driver.
  *  A basic calculator. The Key-Pro uses the numeric keypad and adds;
     Keyboard/Calculator, All-Clear/On, Square Root, and Percent keys.
     It provides an 8-digit LCD display that works when the computer is
     both on and off.
  *  Mechanical switches with an audible, mechanical `click' feedback.
  *  Curved rows of keys instead of a flat keyboard.

  - Tom

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1998\10\06@011929 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   It seems to me that there is a market for a programmer's keyboard in a
   Windows environment. There are high-end keyboards but they are not
   suitable for a PC environment running Windows. The Key-Pro was a
   popular keyboard with all the features I mentioned earlier.

Maybe.  PCs are in better shape than nearly any other type of system.
Back when SUN broke their keyboard layout, I toyed with the idea of
doing a PIC (or similar) application that would convert a PC keyboard
(many layouts available, pick your favorite, with or without pastel
keys) to other platforms that lacked such variety (especially those
"workstation" machines.)  I didn't think most of the market would pay
double the price of an already expensive keyboard (ie $50 plus prices of
PC keyboard to replace the one that came with your sun "for free".)

Keyboards are rather personal things.  Of the features you listed as
"wanted", I wouldn't use most of them... ("function key templates"?  You
mean someone actually doesn't lose those immediately?!)  (part of this
is the "necessity" of switching constantly between three or so different
systems (PC, Mac, X-terminal) - that would be another advantage of the
universal adaptor...)

BillW

1998\10\06@012129 by Dave VanHorn

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>   *  A basic calculator. The Key-Pro uses the numeric keypad and
adds;
>      Keyboard/Calculator, All-Clear/On, Square Root, and Percent
keys.
>      It provides an 8-digit LCD display that works when the computer
is


   A HEX calculator!  :) :) :)

1998\10\06@031237 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Bill, another advantage of the few mechanical switch keyboards that I've
looked at is longer life switches. I wish I could find a local place where
I could actually try all the available brands but, despite all the hi-tech
and computer stores in the area, they seem to carry a small selection of
brands.

  The PS/2 uses a 6-pin mini-DIN connector so all you need to do is wire a
5-pin DIN to the mini-DIN. I ended up buying an adapter cable for $4.95 so
I can use my Key-Pro until I sell my old computer. I'm tempted to buy a
cheap keyboard for the old machine and keep the Key-Pro.

  - Tom

At 02:22 PM 10/4/98 PDT, William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\06@032932 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Bill, I once did a PIC PC-Amiga keyboard converter for my own use. CCInk
had a recent article on remapping PC keyboards. The last couple of days
I've been tossing around the idea of a PIC-based programmable function key
addition to an existing keyboard. It would pass normal scan codes and use a
separate keypad to send a programmable series of user-defined scan codes.
Basically, you would switch it to a record mode and enter a series of
keystrokes that would be saved in EEPROM. It would support multiple sets.
I'm too busy to tackle this now but if I do pursue it, I'll share it.

  As far as a template holder, I used it for my programmable keys on the
Key-Pro which is labled PF1-PF12. I made a template in MS Word.

  - Tom

At 10:17 PM 10/5/98 PDT, William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\06@035320 by mcoop

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The best keyboards I ever used in the past were KeyTronic - but they dropped
off the map when PCs arrived (they were a build it in yourself unit (no
standard DIN plugs etc - and they spat out TTL ASCII from memory).

I have seen the name Key-Tronic, but I'm not sure if they're the same
company.  Anyone knows ?

They had fabulous mechanical keyboards that would last forever, and cost the
earth - but I would still buy one if I could find it.

Also - I have an OKI (Japanese) 101 keyboard which is very good, but it was
dropped about 6 years ago, and I lost a couple of the key springs - but I
still use it on my  second PC (does that say something).

1998\10\06@041439 by Mark Willis

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Most of my pentium systems use KeyTronic keyboards, I do think they're
still in business =)  You could look at their retail distributor map at
http://www.keytronic.com/retail/default.asp, links you to all retail
merchants selling their keyboards, and a distributor map at
http://www.keytronic.com/distmap.htm.

 http://www.cdw.com/, http://www.anythingpc.com/, I'm sure dozens of
other places have these (Mail Order outlets in the US.)

 Worst problem I'm having is that I'm wearing the keycaps to blank on
some keys <G>

 If I can help get you one, let me know, Seattle area's great for
computer hardware <G>  And I get past the local UPS depot & the local
airport post office weekly or so...

 Mark, mwillisspamKILLspamnwlink.com

MC wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\06@043343 by

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       Someone mentioned Cherry on this thread.  Well, although they seem
to have a reputation for quality, they also operate in the mega-budget end
of the market.  We have been supplied with some Cherry keybaords with some
industrial rack mount PC,s.  They are 100% plastic, 100% nasty and so light
a gentle breeze would probably blow it off the worktop.  Several of these
have already expired.

       I'm sure they do make decent keyboards, but you have to know exactly
what you are buying.

       Mike Rigby-Jones
       .....mrjonesKILLspamspam.....nortel.co.uk

1998\10\06@051740 by mcoop

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Is that the 'nano-budget' end of the market, or the 1/(mega-budget) end ?
       Someone mentioned Cherry on this thread.  Well, although they seem
to have a reputation for quality, they also operate in the mega-budget end
of the market.  We have been supplied with some Cherry keybaords with some
industrial rack mount PC,s.  They are 100% plastic, 100% nasty and so light
a gentle breeze would probably blow it off the worktop.  Several of these
have already expired.

       I'm sure they do make decent keyboards, but you have to know exactly
what you are buying.

1998\10\06@101250 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Tom Handley wrote:

>    Bill, another advantage of the few mechanical switch keyboards that I've
> looked at is longer life switches. I wish I could find a local place where
-snip-

Imho, you want a deluxe keyboard as sold by large mail-order chains via
catalog. No hex converter I'm afraid.

Anyway, for quality, you may want to try the same industrial PC parts
people and find a Hall effect keyboard. This will cost you an arm and a
leg but I guarantee that they will outlive any switch or membrane, even
capacitive effect membranes. Some of these require extra power though, as
the PC keyboard power connector cannot be relied on to supply over 0.5 A
(101 keys * 5 mA / hall sensor ~= 500 mA if many keys are depressed
together, more ;).

Peter

1998\10\06@123036 by Mark Willis

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Tom Handley wrote:
>
> >    Bill, another advantage of the few mechanical switch keyboards that I've
> > looked at is longer life switches. I wish I could find a local place where
> -snip-
>
> Imho, you want a deluxe keyboard as sold by large mail-order chains via
> catalog. No hex converter I'm afraid.
>
> <snipped>
>
> Peter

 Hex Calculators:  I just use one of the bunch of identical LCD
calculators I bought (one per work area & a carry-with-me one) for hex,
binary, & octal <G>  I use DOS a lot & got in the habit years ago, no
Windoze calculator <G>  This batch are Sharp EL-520G's, nice solar cell
& battery backup, they do pretty well.  (Beats the old TI LED-type
"Programmers Calculators" from ~1976 any day of the week, I've had to
actually replace one calculator's battery from use/old age <G>)

 Mark, EraseMEmwillisspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTnwlink.com

1998\10\07@093952 by Pavel Korensky

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At 05:19 4.10.1998 -0700, you wrote:
>programmers. Has anyone run across a good keyboard in this `day and age' of
>silent, compact, made for office workers, Windows-compatible, keyboards?
>Thanks,

I am using the HP keyboard for more than 3 years. I am very happy with it.
Maybe you can ask any HP computers dealer, they should have them as a spare
parts. They are not cheap, I paid more than 100 USD for mine keyboard, but
it is far the best kbd I ever have.

PavelK

**************************************************************************
* Pavel KorenskyÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* Styblova 13, 140 00, Prague 4, Czech Republic      ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* PGP Key fingerprint:Ê F3 E1 AE BC 34 18 CB A6Ê CC D0 DA 9E 79 03 41 D4 *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* SUMMA SCIENTIA - NIHIL SCIREÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
**************************************************************************

1998\10\07@102430 by Pavel Korensky

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At 09:28 6.10.1998 -0700, you wrote:
>  Hex Calculators:  I just use one of the bunch of identical LCD
>calculators I bought (one per work area & a carry-with-me one) for hex,
>binary, & octal <G>  I use DOS a lot & got in the habit years ago, no
>Windoze calculator <G>  This batch are Sharp EL-520G's, nice solar cell
>& battery backup, they do pretty well.  (Beats the old TI LED-type
>"Programmers Calculators" from ~1976 any day of the week, I've had to
>actually replace one calculator's battery from use/old age <G>)

Hmmm, I am one of those happy peoples who own the old HP 16C programmer's
calculator. I am affraid that one day, this calculator will die. AFAIK,
there is no equivalent for this calculator today (with variable word size,
rotations, carry, shifts etc. etc.)

PavelK

**************************************************************************
* Pavel KorenskyÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* Styblova 13, 140 00, Prague 4, Czech Republic      ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* PGP Key fingerprint:Ê F3 E1 AE BC 34 18 CB A6Ê CC D0 DA 9E 79 03 41 D4 *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* SUMMA SCIENTIA - NIHIL SCIREÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
**************************************************************************

1998\10\07@103223 by paulb

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Pavel Korensky wrote:

> Hmmm, I am one of those happy peoples who own the old HP 16C
> programmer's calculator. I am affraid that one day, this calculator
> will die. AFAIK, there is no equivalent for this calculator today
> (with variable word size, rotations, carry, shifts etc. etc.)

 Ah!  But you have a H-P, *he* referred to T-I.  Very similar in style,
but ...
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\10\07@230357 by Kelly J Kohls

picon face
>Hmmm, I am one of those happy peoples who own the old HP 16C
programmer's
>calculator. I am affraid that one day, this calculator will die.  AFAIK,
there is no equivalent >for this calculator today (with variable word
size, rotations, carry, shifts etc. etc.)
>
>PavelK

Pavel,

I have a Casio CM-100 computer math calculator that provides all of the
functions you mentioned.

It allows calculations in binary, octal, decimal and hex; and provides
for word sizes of 1, 4, 8, 16, and 32.  It provides the usual operators
of not, and, or, and xor.  In addition, it provides rotate, shift,
arithmetic shift, and signed arithmetic functions.

I've had this calculator for quite some time so I'm not sure if it's
still in production, but might be worth a look on the Casio webpage.

Kelly Kohls
Amateur Radio Callsign: N5TLE
Home E-Mail Address: kkohlsspamspam_OUTjuno.com or @spam@n5tleKILLspamspamqsl.net
Homepage URL: http://www.qsl.net/n5tle

P. S.  An added bonus, it's solar powered!

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\10\08@132553 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Pavel, I ended up refurbishing my Key-Pro. I removed all the keys (120+)
and cleaned 3 years worth of dirt, grease and grime... The only `casualty'
was the LCD display as the ribbon cable broke at the LCD end where it is
`sandwiched' between the LCD glass so I'll miss the calculator. I still have
my programmable keys and a very versatile cursor and numeric keypad as well
as the nice `feel and sound' of the mechanical switches. The keyboard is so
clean that I have to learn how to use it all over again ;-)

  Bye the way, Lattice renewed my Synario registration and my local rep is
sending a couple of samples of both the 1032E and the 1016E. I've also
ordered all the hardware that I need to breadboard the logic analyzer so
things are moving along after a hiatus during the summer and the crash of my
old computer. I've run all the simulations and timing analysis that I can
and now it's time to see how things work, at least statically, in the real
world... I still want to look at the possibilities with two 1032Es to
implement suggestions from you, Dmitry, Gus, and others. Right now, both the
1032E and the 1016E's resources are `exhausted'... Oh!, you can relate to
this ;-) When running the Lattice fitter, the difference between a Pentium
90 and a Pentium II 450 is `incredible' to say the least ;-)

  - Tom

At 03:26 PM 10/7/98 +0200, Pavel Korensky wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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