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'[OT] New server comming, Request For Comment'
2012\02\17@165230 by James Newton

face picon face
The server is dying, long live the server!

SUMMARY: I'm looking for review, and advice from those with M$ server
experience, and am willing to pay a fair amount (e.g. $100) for qualified
professionals who are willing to spend a few minutes looking this over and
offering suggestions. This is (another) big investment, and we just can't
afford to screw it up.

BACKGROUND/SERVER RAID FAIL: So we appear to have a busted server due to a
"punctured stripe" issue on our raid array. Nate said this is Dell for "we
sold you a cheap-assed RAID controller with awful firmware" and I'm inclined
to agree. Google "RAID punctured stripe" if you care to know more. If you
know how to fix that without downing the server and reformatting /
reinstalling, we would pay good money for a solution.

SERVER REPLACEMENT: According to Dell, fixing it would mean downing the
server for many days (at the speed I could rebuild it) so we have no choice
but to purchase a new server. Obviously, it ain't gonna be Dell! We've had
good luck with ASUS, HP, and IBM machines in the past, so those are my
current preferences, but I'm open to other suggestions. I hear HP overheats,
and IBM is way over priced. We love our ASUS laptops and workstations. No
problems.

M$ ONLY: The machine must run SBS 2k8 pro with Exchange 7 and IIS 7 as that
is what we have licensed and what I know. Just to be clear: NO! *nix is NOT
an option. Period. Thank you, but no.
Here is the current setup I'm looking at:

ASUS TS500-E6/PS4 Pedestal Server Barebone
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16816110045

2x Intel Xeon E5520 2.26GHz LGA 1366 80W Quad-Core Server Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819117185

Patriot Signature 12GB (3 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM Server Memory Model
PS312G13ER3K-E
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820220423

2x Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB 3.5" SATA 6.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive
-Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136929

Total price just over $2200. ...which is pretty good... but still painful.
,o)

Concerns:

-- RAID: Concern has been expressed about the RAID system. The SATA
Controller is an IntelR ICH10R with 6 SATA2 300MB/s ports and IntelR Matrix
Storage support for software RAID 0, 1, 10 & 5. I would be running RAID 1.
The current server with less processing power never exceeds 20% and averages
under 10. Any advice?

-- RAM: Concern has also been expressed about the memory. The server says it
supports: Total Slots: 6 (3-channel per CPU, 3 DIMM per CPU)
Capacity: Maximum up to 48GB (RDIMM); Maximum up to 24GB (UDIMM)
Memory Type: DDR3 1066/1333 Reg DIMM/ Unbuffered DIMM with ECC Memory Size: 1GB 2GB 4GB 8GB (RDIMM); 1GB 2GB 4GB (UDIMM)

The memory is: 240-Pin Dual in-line memory module 2 Rank Double-sided module
7.8US Refresh Interval (8192 CYCLES/64MS) Auto and self refresh capability
Serial Presence-Detect (SPD) PCB height: 1181(mil) RoHS Compliant JEDEC
Compliant Compatible Server board: Asus Z8NA-D6C Tyan S7025AGM2NR Intel
S5520HC Tyan S7002G2NR-LE Intel S3420GPLC.

Customers have reported success with several ASUS systems including the
TS500 and the RS700. If you can see a problem, please speak up.

-- DRIVES: Concern has been expressed about the Western Digital drives.
Apparently they have a reputation for running hot? This model appears to be
made to address those problems: "The 2.5-inch WD VelociRaptor is enclosed in
a backplane-ready 3.5-inch enterprise-class mounting frame with a built-in
heat sink that keeps this powerful little drive extra cool when installed in
high-performance desktop chassis." It's also the only drive I could find
with a 5 year warranty... But I'm very open to switching to a different
drive, but I want an ultra fast drive as the HD's are almost always the
major bottleneck in any system, and more so in a server.

ACTION: Your input is valued and appreciated. Anyone with any comment will
be welcomed. Please pass this on if you know someone who has experience with
this stuff. If you are a server professional, or know one, who would like to
get paid to advise us, please send a link to your online CV or Resume.


--
James Newton
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com
1-970-462-7764

2012\02\17@195305 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

picon face
Hi James.

Is this effort is to replace dying Piclist server ?
In that case I want to donate some money to help
to offset the costs. :)


WBR Dmitriy.


--- On Fri, 2/17/12, James Newton <.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@massmind.org> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2012\02\18@063337 by David

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On 17/02/2012 21:52, James Newton wrote:
> Here is the current setup I'm looking at:
[snip]
> 2x Intel Xeon E5520 2.26GHz LGA 1366 80W Quad-Core Server Processor
> www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819117185
>
> Patriot Signature 12GB (3 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM Server Memory Model
> PS312G13ER3K-E
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820220423

Gosh, what does this server do except host the mailing list?

That's the kind of box I'd virtualise a whole bunch of servers (Windows
and Linux) on.

Davi

2012\02\20@215506 by James Newton

face picon face
MIT (yes, that MIT) serves the list, I just archive it and built the FAQ
site with content and help from list members (e.g. David Carey). And 3 times
so far, I sell a product some one on the list develops and doesn't want to
sell themselves. Ashley Roll's little RS232 to TTL converter in a DB9
backshell, Roman Blacks Linistepper and SLAm Stepper motor drivers.
The server hosts the site ( http://piclist.com ) , the archive (
http://www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp ) , the FAQ
(http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/index.htm ), and the little store
(http://www.piclist.com/techref/ecomprice.asp ).

And it does it on a M$ server for a lot of reasons.
--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2012\02\24@151854 by Chetan Bhargava

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Hi James,

This server is an overkill to just host the list and the piclist
pages. You can easily buy an old Dell PE2950 for under $500 with RAID.
You can buy brand new enterprise sata or nearline SAS drives to
replace the old ones.

This should do the trick.

Regards

Chetan Bhargava
Web: http://www.bhargavaz.us
Blog: http://microz.blogspot.com



On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 6:56 PM, James Newton <jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTmassmind.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2012\02\24@175011 by c h

picon face
> MIT (yes, that MIT) serves the list, I just archive it and built the FAQ
> site with content and help from list members (e.g. David Carey). And 3
> times


On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:28 AM, V G wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Multiple cheap MS-based computers with volume licensing could probably
do the job.
- One computer to do authorization;
- One or more Web servers;
- One or more SQL servers;

"Load ballance" and shut down idle computers to save on electricity
bills. No need in expensive Xeon 80W quad cores  and VelociRaptor
setups in my opinion

2012\02\24@195902 by V G

picon face
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 5:50 PM, c h <@spam@cognitive.harmonyKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Multiple cheap MS-based computers with volume licensing could probably
> do the job.
> - One computer to do authorization;
> - One or more Web servers;
> - One or more SQL servers;
>
> "Load ballance" and shut down idle computers to save on electricity
> bills. No need in expensive Xeon 80W quad cores  and VelociRaptor
> setups in my opinion.
>


I would STRONGLY advise AGAINST microcrap software. It is NOT suitable for
server use. Yes, on the desktop for playing video games and check your
email, it is fine. But for anything serious (server use, high performance
computing) use Linux or BSD! Linux/BSD will NOT fail you, it's free and
open source, extremely stable, rock solid in design, and built from the
ground up with security in mind.

Stay away from microcrap

2012\02\25@130212 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 07:58 PM, V G wrote:

> Stay away from microcrap!

Good advice, not needed. Most everybody I know uses Microsoft, which
seems to work just fine and doesn't have crap in the name.

People who choose to use one product over another have their reasons,
and your reasons seem more emotional than anything else.

I stopped being emotional about operating systems when I retired my
Amiga :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                         unladen european swallow

2012\02\25@160827 by V G

picon face
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Bob Blick <KILLspambobblickKILLspamspamftml.net> wrote:

> Good advice, not needed. Most everybody I know uses Microsoft, which
> seems to work just fine and doesn't have crap in the name.
>

"Most", you say? Must be an outlier of a sample. Linux/BSD are the
predominant server operating systems by FAR.


> People who choose to use one product over another have their reasons,
> and your reasons seem more emotional than anything else.
>

There are BOOKS dedicated to explaining why Linux/BSD should be used for
servers over microcrap. It has nothing to do with emotion, it is based on
logical reasoning

2012\02\25@172310 by Joe Wronski

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face
On 2/25/2012 4:08 PM, V G wrote:

>
> There are BOOKS dedicated to explaining why Linux/BSD should be used for
> servers over microcrap. It has nothing to do with emotion, it is based on
> logical reasoning.

Logical reasoning of entrepreneurial sysadmins and authors who make money supporting linux systems, I would guess.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.  I don't much like Microsoft either, but if I needed a system that just works and I didn't need to tinker with everything, I'd probably love them and Apple.
Joe

2012\02\25@182649 by Andrew Wood

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On 25/02/12 22:24, Joe Wronski wrote:
> Logical reasoning of entrepreneurial sysadmins and authors who make
> money supporting linux systems, I would guess.
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.  I don't much like Microsoft
> either, but if I needed a system that just works and I didn't need to
> tinker with everything, I'd probably love them and Apple.
> Joe W
Theres a logical reason all the major webites on the net run on Linux servers (Google, Wikipedia, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon).
People spout this crap about MS servers being easy to use and Linux being complex.

1. Linux is no where near as complex as Windows under the hood. Id rather edit a Linux text config file than the Windows registry any day. Furthermore a command line interface stays the same pretty much, the Windows GUI moves things around from one release to the next.

2. If you dont know how to delve under the hood when things go wrong (either on linux or windows) and have to have a point & click gui  then you shouldnt be left in charge of a mission critical server in the first place whatever os its running cos something WILL go wrong and you'll be screwed

2012\02\25@200044 by RussellMc

face picon face
Wearily dons admin exorcist pointed hat::

This is edging into religious flame wars.
This is in OT which is where it should be.

Objective comments on relative merits of X vs Y vs XYZT may convince some
who haven't been seared by decades and decades of bickering on this and
similar subjects.

Any comment with the term 'crap" or similar in it is going to have to
strive to claim objectivity. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used -
it's just that it's about as bad as invoking Godwin when it comes to trying
to make a good argument. (Comparisons with excrement and the 3rd Reich have
their legitimate place, but it's not usually where you'll find them used).

It is undoubtedly true that many highly capable people run stable useful
server systems using Microsoft products and that they are very happy with
the results.  It's also clear from the voting by numbers seen in reality
that other systems are preferred by the majority. And there are many
accounts that show that horror results can be had in all worlds.

Objective fact based examples are liable to be more convincing when your
choir attempts to sing to the other choir.

As for trying to convince James to change ship lock stock and barrel - no
chance. Start a new thread if that's your bent. Someone really good just
might sell him on some form of enemy camp virtualisation though.


Russell

Hat's off. Family picnic party hat on ...





On 26 February 2012 12:21, Andrew Wood <RemoveMEa.j.wTakeThisOuTspamme.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\27@022448 by Chetan Bhargava

picon face
Lets not start an OS war here :-)

What I would like to say is that PICLIST (distribution list) can be
hosted on a Dual P3 server using Intel Serverboard, 1-2 GB of RAM.
SATA/SAS/SCSI RAID 5. And of-course without using the Microsoft OS :-)

Chetan Bhargav

2012\02\27@092947 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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face


{Quote hidden}

And what if the server is not in a "mission critical" application, but simply run as a hobby by someone with far more Microsoft knowledge than Unix/Linux etc?  Why should they invest a large amount of their precious and limited time to learn a new operating system when they are happy with their old one?  It simply makes no sense in this situation.

Mike

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2012\02\28@050642 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On 27 February 2012 14:29, Michael Rigby-Jones <
Michael.Rigby-JonesEraseMEspam.....oclaro.com> wrote:

> And what if the server is not in a "mission critical" application, but
> simply run as a hobby by someone with far more Microsoft knowledge than
> Unix/Linux etc?  Why should they invest a large amount of their precious
> and limited time to learn a new operating system when they are happy with
> their old one?  It simply makes no sense in this situation.
>

It is a kind of religious argument. Both has pros and cons. In my
experience Linux is harder to configure and sometimes to find a proper
driver for a device, but once it runs it works for years and years without
any major problems. Also as most hackers and cyber criminals are targeting
Windows machines, it makes more sense to use Linux to avoid infections.

Tamas




{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\28@200139 by Jake Anderson

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I know I mention linux here but its not internet facing so I hope it meets your requirements its also something of a mind dump.

Any single computer system will fail in the case of that computer failing which is still depressingly common, thats below the SLA my clients need.

My current "mission critical" system base is a pair of dell R210 IIs
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bect122d&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&model_id=poweredge-r210-2

looks like about $1200 gets you quad xeon xeon, 8gb ram and 2x 500gb hdds (i'd look at getting the system without the hdd's, dell charge obscene amounts for them).

I run linux (ubuntu) as the virtual machine host using ganeti for the hypervisor managment and KVM for the hypervisor itself.
It takes care of mirroring the disks over the network with DRBD so even a physical machine dying isn't a big deal.
live migrating all the virtual machines from one host to another is a 1 liner if i want to say upgrade the ram/os/whatever on one of the hosts.
similar case when recovering from a dead machine.
(there is also a web interface to ganeti, but i havent used it much)
I don't raid the disks inside the machines i get better seek times this way (i have 2x disk io intensive VM's and i run one on each disk, but i run them on different hosts), policy is to replace the disks yearly as a preventative measure.

live migration is nice, I have a pbx running in a VM, i've moved the PBX to the other server whilst it was running about 4 calls through it and nobody noticed.

hardware raid is bad in my eyes, if stuff goes pearshaped you are dependant on getting that same raid controller in order to get your data back.

This setup is nice, I have all the features you get with a high price VMware setup with an expensive SAN for ~$2000 in hardware, they also come with a BMC that lets you get a serial console over lan to them.


For you I'd stick your iis into one VM and run sqlserver in another, give each of them 3.5Gb ram (or whatever seems good) and have them running by default on different physical hosts.
In case of dell being dell live migrate if you can to the working machine, if not then fail the first machine and boot everything again on the second.

Get the first machine fixed then migrate stuff back onto it, business interruption can be 0 in a good case, and a bad case is as long as it takes you to diagnose a machine is dead and then get it started on the other one.
I like also that its not like having a "spare" machine, in that most of the time its hardware is wasted, this way your getting the performance of 2 machines when both are working, and then you just get degraded when one breaks.

If hdd failures are your issue, then set up raid1 under it, all your data is then on 4 hdd's spread over 2 computers it should be safe from most physical failures ;->



A general observation, most of your page serving time is going to be seek time for your drives, have you looked at SSDs?
They are soooo much faster for most stuff, get the intel ones though for line of business and make sure to backup.

On 18/02/2012 8:52 AM, James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\28@204237 by James Newton

face picon face
Thanks for the feedback Jake. That sounds very nice...

I've often thought of just hosting with you, but in this case, you responded
2 hours after I pulled the trigger and ordered the ASUS server below.

Oh well.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764

{Original Message removed}

2012\02\28@214821 by Jake Anderson
flavicon
face
rofl
that'll learn me for not paying attention to the piclist
feel free to drop me a direct line about this kind of thing.

i stumbled across this too
lists.us.dell.com/pipermail/linux-poweredge/2010-May/042140.html
which might fix your "punctured stripes"

btw that raid is fakeraid as far as i'm aware, i wouldn't use it, has
the downsides of hardware and software raid combined.
I *think* win2k8 can boot from software raid1, I'd do that, even if it
cant, put your data on software raid, the added CPU load should be
pretty much nothing and you will have cpu to spare, thats a beast of a
machine ;->.
at least with software raid you can stick the drives into another
machine and suck the data out of them.

I'd also look at putting your iis and sql servers into VM's even if you
host them inside hyperV or whatever microsoft is calling it these days.
see what the performance hit is like, if its not too bad then running
the site on another machine if this one dies is a matter of stuffing the
VM files into a new machine and your back up and running (or just boot
from a backup if you can handle loosing a day/whatever of data)

I'm really liking virtualisation if you havent guessed ;-> it just makes
everything so much easier in terms of managment.
Its all well and good saying backup your bare metal machines, but if you
cant get an identical bare metal machine your hosed, even if you do get
an identical one mac addresses change etc and most backups don't give
you a bootable image as an end result.
VM's just make all that go away, all you messy configuration is sitting
in one file that you can drop on anything with the herbs to run it.

On 29/02/2012 12:42 PM, James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

'[OT] New server comming, Request For Comment'
2012\03\05@224657 by James Newton
face picon face
I guess I really should talk to you about this virtualization thing...

Is there a way of setting it up on one machine to start, and then expanding
to a second machine later? The thing that kills me about this is that as
soon as I get the new server running, I can format the hard drives on the
old server and it will probably be good as new... I could sell it at a loss,
or keep it as a backup... OR.... I could make it a second virtual server?
And run my one SBS 2k8 license over both machines? Or am I not
understanding?

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764

{Original Message removed}

2012\03\05@230630 by James Newton

face picon face
The new server is, in fact, now sitting behind me, and has been fired up
once today, just to check out the hardware. Tomorrow I update the BIOS,
firmware for the RAID controller, and hopefully start loading the OS.

The config was just about the same in the end, but I changed to 2 8GB SDRAMs
so that each CPU could have one. Surprised no one caught that... A dual CPU
machine can't evenly share 3 SDRAMs huh? ,o) Lot's of room for expansion, 6
slots total.

The RAID so far looks good... I'm starting out with the two ultra fast 300GB
drives for now, and splitting them between a RAID 1 array for the OS and a
RAID 0 array for the swap file, logs, downloads, and content which will
change slowly and be backed up regularly to an external drive. In the
future, I'll buy bigger drives and move the data off to that and expand the
RAID 1 array... I think I can do that... time will tell...

This thing has a little computer in the computer that monitors stuff like
CPU temp, voltage, fan speed, etc... and will report that back via a
separate IP address assigned in the bios. How freaking cool is that? (yeah,
you guys probably know all about it, but it was news to me). So I can be
setting at my workstation and watch the CPU load from a web browser.

And the software RAID controller looks pretty good so far. RAID 0, 1, 5, or
10... of course I can't get 5 or 10 because I only purchased 2 drives... but
they are screamers! I'm hoping it will be with me a long time, and be a
better investment than the Dell.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2012\03\09@201325 by James Newton

face picon face
SBS 2k8 loaded and updating. Currently downloading SP3 for Exchange 2k7.
Took a bit to figure out how to make a bootable FreeDOS FLASH drive so I
could update the BIOS. http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ was the answer. Very neat little program.



--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2012\03\10@110734 by M.L.

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face
On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:13 PM, James Newton <RemoveMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspamEraseMEmassmind.org> wrote:
> SBS 2k8 loaded and updating. Currently downloading SP3 for Exchange 2k7.
>
> Took a bit to figure out how to make a bootable FreeDOS FLASH drive so I
> could update the BIOS.
> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
> was the answer. Very neat little program.


Do you know what the reason to use SBS 2011 would be over SBS 2008 (or
vice versa?)

-- Martin K

2012\03\12@104104 by James Newton

face picon face
Some people like to be on the bleeding edge? I don't.
--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of
M.L.
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 08:07
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] New server comming, Request For Comment

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:13 PM, James Newton <EraseMEjamesnewtonspamspamspamBeGonemassmind.org>
wrote:
> SBS 2k8 loaded and updating. Currently downloading SP3 for Exchange 2k7.
>
> Took a bit to figure out how to make a bootable FreeDOS FLASH drive so I
> could update the BIOS.
> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
> was the answer. Very neat little program.


Do you know what the reason to use SBS 2011 would be over SBS 2008 (or
vice versa?)

-- Martin K

2012\03\14@092934 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
parallel scaling is hard.
without a load balancer there's no really trivial way to scale out.
upside is a load balancer wouldn't be that hard to do (in linux ;-> but
then that machine is beefy enough you could give a linux VM 512mb of ram
and have it load balance and cache stuff without an issue) some kind of
multi-master sql replication to keep the database content in synch
between the two machines would work well too.

For webfarm stuff the general idea is redundancy at the application
level, virtualisation is a way of tacking it onto stuff that's bad at it
on its own.
I'd perhaps look at running the webserver on the old machine and the
database on the new machine, see what kind of processing loads your
actually using to see whats worth doing.

SBS only lets you run one instance per machine (as i understand it, I
don't have my PHD in microsoft licensing though)
So you would need a licence for each physical machine (in theory),
though precisely what they would do about it is another question.

The second machine would be a virtual machine host (virtual server has
different connotations) as would the primary machine.

hit me up by personal email if you want a more timely response lol.

On 03/06/2012 02:46 PM, James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2012\03\15@191406 by Joe Koberg

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On 2012-03-05 23:06, James Newton wrote:
>
> The RAID so far looks good... I'm starting out with the two ultra fast 300GB
> drives for now, and splitting them between a RAID 1 array for the OS and a
> RAID 0 array for the swap file, logs, downloads, and content which will
> change slowly and be backed up regularly to an external drive. In the
> future, I'll buy bigger drives and move the data off to that and expand the
> RAID 1 array... I think I can do that... time will tell...


I think RAID 0 is far more liability than it's worth.  Is multiplying the chance of failure really justified by a need to stream 200+MB/s off the disks?

Just mirror them. I'd even say avoid the RAID controller and do it in software so you aren't at the mercy of the RAID controller BIOS (you can place the drives in another machine and read them).  Use versions/snapshots/shadow copy so human mistakes don't require a restoral.   To me, that's a better way to setup a server that's going to be serving content for a long time.

Joe Koberg

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