Searching \ for '[OT] Mr. Zhu was:Good news: compatible microchip's' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devices.htm?key=microchip
Search entire site for: 'Mr. Zhu was:Good news: compatible microchip's'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] Mr. Zhu was:Good news: compatible microchip's'
1998\10\26@091608 by hyla

flavicon
face
Interesting gentleman, this Mr. Zhu ...

Remember?

{Quote hidden}

Widening his business now.
Stealing software AND forging the hardware ;)

tsssk ...

Christoph

1998\10\26@212313 by Chris Eddy

flavicon
face
That's right, now, isn't it?  He offered reverse engineering services.  It
is coming back to me now.  And that short thread left respondants in two
camps.  Those that opposed, and those that approved based upon reverse
engineering's 'nobler' applications.  The third camp, those that admit
they just want to copy outright, never spoke up.  So it seems that Mr.
Zhu's company apparently used their abilities to simply duplicate the chip
from a functional standpoint by directly inspecting the part.

Let's see if we can follow the logic here.  Company A spends large sums of
money and precious time developing a product that fits the market very
nicely.  Their efforts are rewarded by very well deserved financial
reward.  Company B never had a clue about the ins and outs of the market,
and has no desire to spend nearly what company A spent.  So they decide to
put the special product into the copy machine and voila! They have the
same product that company A worked thair ass off to develop.  Ah, what the
hell.  Company A has more market and money than they deserve, so screw 'em
if they don't like it.

Does camp two want to step up to the plate now, or are you darting for
cover?

Christoph Klein wrote:

> Interesting gentleman, this Mr. Zhu ...
>
> Remember?
>

1998\10\26@225340 by paulb

flavicon
face
Chris Eddy wrote:

> That's right, now, isn't it?  He offered reverse engineering services.
> It is coming back to me now.

 It should be *stunningly* obvious, that the ability to read protected
code out of a chip directly (as against employing random "hacking" by
trying various impulses, out-of-spec timings and odd commands)
presupposes the examination of the structure of the chip to determine
the address and data busses etc.

 If you can read those details, you can copy the chip's circuit and
therefore, not necessarily but possibly copying the masks, the chip.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\10\26@233817 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi all,

At 09:22 PM 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Let's see if we can follow the logic here.  Company A spends large sums of
>money and precious time developing a product that fits the market very
>nicely.  Their efforts are rewarded by very well deserved financial
>reward.  Company B never had a clue about the ins and outs of the market,
>and has no desire to spend nearly what company A spent.  So they decide to
>put the special product into the copy machine and voila! They have the
>same product that company A worked thair ass off to develop.  Ah, what the
>hell.  Company A has more market and money than they deserve, so screw 'em
>if they don't like it.

I certainly don't want to defend any copiers who just take someone else's
work and run with it, and this certainly seems to be the case with the
"mystery" company in question here, but this reminds me of a remotely
related topic which I'd like to bring up: Just how innovative are pics?
I of course realize that they have been around for a long time, they are
VERY useful, I LOVE them<G>, and they are the only microcontrollers that I
currently use. However, I still have to ask the question, "With today's
technology, can't we greatly improve on the PIC, at least in terms of its
shortcommings?" Also, "Just how much effort, in todays world of computer
based design tools, etc, is it to design a micro like the PIC?" or in other
words, to really play the devils advocate, "Are pics really unique enough
in todays world to consider a similar micro made by another company to be a
copy?" It seems to me that most of what's in a PIC is already in other
micros.

I am right now taking an introductory digital design course with a lab
component. The last lab is to design a simple 8-bit microcontroller! There
are also senior EE courses here for which the final project is to design a
full pipelined microprocessor. It seems to me that a student, with the help
of his classes and the design tools currently available (Like Altera
Max+plus) could design a PIC in at most a couple of years. Now, of course,
fabrication, marketing, support, application notes, documentation and all
that's needed to make a micro successful are a far cry from this initial
working design. However, the cost of these additional things would probably
be about the same for a PIC as for a much faster and better chip. Some
examples of this already happening are probably the Scenix.

I must admit to not having any experience in designing and especially
marketing ICs, but it seems this way to me. If I am wrong, someone, please
educate me, I am fascinated by what seems to me to be the relative slow
speed of PIC development and advancement, especially as compared to other
microprocessor areas.

I'm sure this will generate some interesting discussion <VBG>,

Sean

+-------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                  |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM|
| Electrical Engineering Student|
+-------------------------------+
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
.....shb7KILLspamspam@spam@cornell.edu  Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315 ICQ #: 3329174

1998\10\26@233826 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Oh come on.  Reverse engineering microprocessors at a functional level has
a long and moderately respected history.  The Z80, the V20, and who knows
how many intel x86 clones (which ran the gamut of repsectability from
functional reverse engineering to licensing agreements that allegedly went
astray...)

BillW

1998\10\27@064256 by Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt

flavicon
face
Hi,

BTW, My former employer was the Engeneer-School here in
Frankfurt/Germany  where I worked as Lab-Engeneer. Several students
worked with our Mentor-Graphics toolset and designed a 8-Bit Micro
which fitted into a XILINX FPGA.

I also think the low end Pic4s aren4t so complicate so they could
be easyly be copied (at least functional). Specially by someone who
knows how to manufacture IC4s  - the "EZE" Web-Page was a link to a
IC-Manufacturer.

But I agree, that the Support from Microchip/MPLAB is something
which has to be keeped in mind.

Something to mention too is: what about environmentional constraints ?
I think Microchip has to fullfill several challenges to produce
the PIC4s without polluting the environment with spending much mony to
this efforts.

But EZE seems to reside somewhere in China - and the enviroment ? - who
cares...

So it4s clear why they can be cheaper - isn't it ?

Best regards

       Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
       sswspamKILLspamoikossw.de

1998\10\27@112715 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
> Something to mention too is: what about environmentional constraints ?
> I think Microchip has to fullfill several challenges to produce
> the PIC4s without polluting the environment with spending much mony to
> this efforts.
>
> But EZE seems to reside somewhere in China - and the enviroment ? - who
> cares...

Have you looked at a 16F84 recently? Microchip is making them in China
now.

-Bob

1998\10\27@190443 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:22:52 +0100 Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
<.....sswKILLspamspam.....OIKOSSW.DE> writes:

>But EZE seems to reside somewhere in China - and the enviroment ? -
>who
>cares...

The 16F84's I have are stamped "Microchip" on the top and "China" on the
bottom...  So Microchip is already onto this trick.

There are several PIC copies already -- the Scenix, some by Holtek, and a
FPGA design.  Mr. Zhu is not doing a very good job of marketing the
Chinese ones he claims to have.  He's so coy about details we don't
really know what they can do.  Apparently they won't work in a Microchip
programmer, which means they aren't exact copies anyway.  A US
distributor would add a lot of credibility; if I send money to China and
the deal goes wrong, I have very little recourse (especially since
Chinese interests have bought all the US politicians).


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\10\28@052630 by wwl

picon face
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:02:15 -0500, you wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:22:52 +0100 Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
><EraseMEsswspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTOIKOSSW.DE> writes:
>
>>But EZE seems to reside somewhere in China - and the enviroment ? -
>>who
>>cares...
>
>The 16F84's I have are stamped "Microchip" on the top and "China" on the
>bottom...  So Microchip is already onto this trick.
>
>There are several PIC copies already -- the Scenix, some by Holtek, and a
>FPGA design.  
The Holtek parts are significantly different, unless they've released
new ones I don't know about that are PIC substitutes. Their ICE is
also very cheap!

1998\10\28@053042 by Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt

flavicon
face
Mike Keitz wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:22:52 +0100 Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
> <sswspamspam_OUTOIKOSSW.DE> writes:
>
> >But EZE seems to reside somewhere in China - and the enviroment ? -
> >who
> >cares...
>
> The 16F84's I have are stamped "Microchip" on the top and "China" on the
> bottom...  So Microchip is already onto this trick.
>

Oooops ... should take a closer look at my 16F84 ... :-)

Best regards

       Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
       @spam@sswKILLspamspamoikossw.de

1998\10\28@101242 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Mike (and many others), good points. Another thing I have'nt seen
mentioned is the electrical characteristics which is crucial in many
PIC designs. That and the fact that most PICs are already low cost,
especially compared to importing them from China. If I was specifying
a large production run, I sure would want to know the details of the
vendor and it's fab line...

  - Tom

At 09:02 AM 10/27/98 -0500, Mike Keitz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 1998 , 1999 only
- Today
- New search...